40mm does not intercept

[fifleche]

Well, now that the preview is up and we can see the stats for the Bofors 40mm, we can now see that there is, indeed, no way to stop a ground attack plane attack from the ground. I had hoped that larger-caliber canons (that can thus fire further away than quad MG's or 20mm canons) might do just that; fire before the plane does its attack and/or make it pull up & abort the attack. Perhaps the dreaded Flak88 might have this very realistic & desirable SA, but that unit isn't scheduled yet...

My hope now lies with fighters-interceptors.

[Joisey]

Aw, Heck! Don't be so passive. If you think Flak guns should be able to abort air attacks, House Rule it! I know I will.

[furious angel]

Well, now that the preview is up and we can see the stats for the Bofors 40mm, we can now see that there is, indeed, no way to stop a ground attack plane attack from the ground. I had hoped that larger-caliber canons (that can thus fire further away than quad MG's or 20mm canons) might do just that; fire before the plane does its attack and/or make it pull up & abort the attack. Perhaps the dreaded Flak88 might have this very realistic & desirable SA, but that unit isn't scheduled yet...

My hope now lies with fighters-interceptors.

Why would you think that you would be able to stop the attack? The first thing you would know about a ground attack from a plane is when it zoomed past overhead and the tank 500 yards in front of you "brewed up". You could then open up with anti-air guns and hope to take it out before it could make a second attack.

[fifleche]

Joisey, as much as I like what the HHR does (and yes, I am a big fan of the HHR; I consider myself part of the family :D ), I still see it as making stuff more "plausible". I would much rather see WOTC/AH get it right the first time.

[fifleche]

Why would you think that you would be able to stop the attack? The first thing you would know about a ground attack from a plane is when it zoomed past overhead and the tank 500 yards in front of you "brewed up". You could then open up with anti-air guns and hope to take it out before it could make a second attack.Uhhh... No. The Stuka has an -AIR SIREN- of all things!!! You can hear it start its "attack run" for miles around! That is the whole point of the siren, to use as a terror weapon!!! Yes, I know the "G" model doesn't have the siren, but still, don't tell me a spotter on an AA gun couldn't see an incoming plane on the russian steppes... :rolleyes:

[Bobsalt]

Joisey, as much as I like what the HHR does (and yes, I am a big fan of the HHR; I consider myself part of the family :D ), I still see it as making stuff more "plausible". I would much rather see WOTC/AH get it right the first time.

I'm with you here. Yes, it can be house-ruled (as can anything), but that does nothing for league play or tournaments.

[furious angel]

Uhhh... No. The Stuka has an -AIR SIREN- of all things!!! You can hear it start its "attack run" for miles around! That is the whole point of the siren, to use as a terror weapon!!! Yes, I know the "G" model doesn't have the siren, but still, don't tell me a spotter on an AA gun couldn't see an incoming plane on the russian steppes... :rolleyes:

Yeah Stuka's i'll give you. My mum actually got attacked by one as a little girl living on the south coast of england.

And yeah a spotter would see an incoming plane on the stepps....and in flat desert.....but until it gets close how do you tell who's side it is on? It could be you own guys coming back from an attack.

[Joisey]

Joisey, as much as I like what the HHR does (and yes, I am a big fan of the HHR; I consider myself part of the family :D ), I still see it as making stuff more "plausible". I would much rather see WOTC/AH get it right the first time.
So say we all!

But, sometimes, a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do....;)

[UnionMan]

As you are aware, use of the siren was optional on German dive bombers. Once a dive was started there was really no way of aborting the attack. The pilots blacked out temporarily during the dive and an automated breaking mechansism pulled the plane out of the dive as the pilot was not able to do so. Hence the strict fitness requirements of these types of pilots.

In short, I'm not sure that aborting the attack of a Stuka is necessary or realistic.

[Joisey]

I'm with you here. Yes, it can be house-ruled (as can anything), but that does nothing for league play or tournaments.
League play and tournaments are now officially to be thought of as "Collateral Damage", if you take my meaning.

As I predicted, the errata doesn't go far enough and tournament play is going to get so balkanized as a result, Marshall Tito himself couldn't hold it together. ;)

[Joisey]

As you are aware, use of the siren was optional on German dive bombers. Once a dive was started there was really no way of aborting the attack. The pilots blacked out temporarily during the dive and an automated breaking mechansism pulled the plane out of the dive as the pilot was not able to do so. Hence the strict fitness requirements of these types of pilots.

In short, I'm not sure that aborting the attack of a Stuka is necessary or realistic.
Assuming the truth of what you say about the Stuka, then that just means that the Stuka should be the exception to the rule. It still shouldn't be the rule itself.

[fifleche]

As you are aware, use of the siren was optional on German dive bombers. Once a dive was started there was really no way of aborting the attack. The pilots blacked out temporarily during the dive and an automated breaking mechansism pulled the plane out of the dive as the pilot was not able to do so. Hence the strict fitness requirements of these types of pilots.

In short, I'm not sure that aborting the attack of a Stuka is necessary or realistic.What about a strafing fighter? A rocket-firing Sturmovik? All these take some time to set up, and would be watched VERY closely by surrounding flak emplacements... From both sides, especially if your side wasn't supposed to get air support (like during an attack and you're defender...)!!! Just fire at anything that flies!

Also, the Stuka -WAS- easy to identify from far away. Distinctive leg cowlings, gull-wings; it was a very easily i.d.ed plane, so gunners wouldn't wait to hear the siren to start firing... Anyways, I could go on an on but still the Bofors wouldn't get the SA :(

[Aries]

Uhhh... No. The Stuka has an -AIR SIREN- of all things!!!

I believe the G model Stuka did not have a Siren. They were only used on the earlier model dive bomber version. The G model does not even have the cool slotted dive flaps. It was designed to only use the underwing cannon and perhaps a small bomb load but no dive bombing.

[UnionMan]

The intent of my post was to put some historicaly interesting facts on the table regarding the Stuka, not to discuss the specific rules of aircraft in AAM. Ultimately there are a million different variables that could be accounted for in a wargame.

What if there was low cloud cover that the plane could take advantage of en route to its target? What if the plane was attacking its target with the sun at its back and the attackers couldn't see it? What if the headwinds were strong and slowed the attack? What if the wind was at the plane's back and increased its speed?

At the end of the day, AAM is really a simple game and does not pretend to be the Holy Grail of historical realism.

[fifleche]

I believe the G model Stuka did not have a Siren. They were only used on the earlier model dive bomber version. The G model does not even have the cool slotted dive flaps. It was designed to only use the underwing cannon and perhaps a small bomb load but no dive bombing.Yes, I said that. read two lines under the quote you cut...

[Aries]

Yes, I said that. read two lines under the quote you cut...

Sorry, missed it in all the excitement!!!!

[CdtWeasel]

Big gun's like the Flak 88 weren't used to stop strafing fighters, they were lobbing shells at high altitude in hopes of hitting something or breaking up bomber formations.

Remember you are dealing with cocky 'invincible' 20 year old pilots, a few tracers aren't going to scare them out of an attack, the only way to stop them is to shoot them out of the sky. In that case the more fanatical pilots might just ram their plane into their target since they have no hope of survival.

[fifleche]

At the end of the day, AAM is really a simple game and does not pretend to be the Holy Grail of historical realism.True. Sadly, it could be much more realistic with just a little more effort and no more complication to the rules.

[simonr1978]

Remember as well when considering the likes of the 40mm bofors, .50 cals, 20mm Flak and so on that these are before the days of radar guiding, the range of all these weapons against an attacking aircraft is going to be about the same: As far as the gunner can see and identify his target.

40mm should be more deadly than 20mm or .50cal simply because of the larger shells, but shouldn't really get any extended ranges against the types of aircraft currently being introduced.

Aircraft recognition is actually surprisingly different. Beyond a couple of hundred metres colours become indistinct and grey-ish, at say 400 or 500 yards even such distinctive features as gull wings and fixed undercarriage become very difficult to pick out.

On the whole AFAIK aircraft on ground attack missions didn't really abort attack runs, simply because of the practicalities that the closing rates were so high that if they were hit and weren't destroyed the damage or impact would often be enough to put them into the ground anyway (Which was why ground attack was so deadly for the pilots too, lose control at 20,000ft you can bail out, lose control at 500ft and you're probably dead by the time you realised!), or if they survive the immediate damage they've probably finished their attack before they've had a chance to fully appreciate how bad or not the damage is.

As an aside, apparently the Desert Air Force Bristol Blenheims also used Stuka-type sirens, don't know if they came up with the idea themselves or (Probably more likely) copied it from the Stukas though.

[UnionMan]

True. Sadly, it could be much more realistic with just a little more effort and no more complication to the rules.

I agree that some of the special abilities assigned to units are often comical, and sometimes downright assinine, but at the end of the day it all equals out to a fun game. The way I reason, there are plenty of other ww2 miniature systems out there for the hardcores among us. I don't swing that way any more due to a lack of interest and time and find the simplicty of the AAM rules VERY refreshing. IMHO AAM is a much needed revision of historical wargaming.

That's the beauty of having the HHR folks and "AAM Junkies" around; HHR can do things their own way and still take advantage of the figures without adopting the rules fully.

[fifleche]

Aircraft recognition is actually surprisingly different. Beyond a couple of hundred metres colours become indistinct and grey-ish, at say 400 or 500 yards even such distinctive features as gull wings and fixed undercarriage become very difficult to pick out....and the same can be said about the pilot of an aircraft looking at ground units. Since planes "pop up" exactly at the right point, we must assume that the enemy has been identified, and as such, the plane already made a high-speed pass low on the battlefield. Thus justifying the "intercept" ability of AA units... If there would be a possibility of "drift" or "friendly fire" then yes, I must assume all you just said is true; but as it is not the case...

[GijoeNumberOne]

Here's something to think about: Until the Fall of '44, and then only with the help of ground observers, planes couldn't hit what they couldn't see. Time and time again we read how successful the Germans were in camouflaging their equipment, including tanks. Therefore, anything in the woods or towns should have an almost guaranteed cover roll.

[Zhukov]

Assuming the truth of what you say about the Stuka, then that just means that the Stuka should be the exception to the rule. It still shouldn't be the rule itself.
Yeah thats what I was thinking an exception of a rule like that goes into play. Stukas are pretty sweet still but I dont want to see mine getting knocked out at the start!

[NorthernRommel]

League play and tournaments are now officially to be thought of as "Collateral Damage", if you take my meaning.

As I predicted, the errata doesn't go far enough and tournament play is going to get so balkanized as a result, Marshall Tito himself couldn't hold it together. ;)


Wheres Patton when you need some face slapping done :)

[NorthernRommel]

I agree that some of the special abilities assigned to units are often comical, and sometimes downright assinine, but at the end of the day it all equals out to a fun game.


It will be fun as my P-51 enjoys shooting down all those pesky Stukas. That the german players like.

No doubt someone will say the Russians lend lease them and blah blah blah.....

[Autarch]

My hope now lies with fighters-interceptors.

HOPEFULLY there will be an Interceptor SA that will allow fighters to down other aircraft before they can attack ground units.

[fifleche]

HOPEFULLY there will be an Interceptor SA that will allow fighters to down other aircraft before they can attack ground units.I don't even care for an "attack" ! Simply something as an "abort" result on an airstrike would amply satisfy me! I mean, no matter how these guys considered themselves "invincible", if there are 2-3 enemy fighters and some flak units covering a lone Nashorn on a hill, there should be some possibility that the bomber pilot passes it's "common sense" roll and go make it's airstrike elsewhere!!! Or simply that the pilot pulls up somehow!

[Tico303]

You just talked about the BOFORs being not powerfull enough against Air Attacks. But what about infantry? As far as I understand it, it's MUCH too powerfull against infantry. Of course you could use A-A-Guns to fire on infantry, but most of the time a set up AA-gun would not be able to adjust in time to fire on advancing infantry.

[simonr1978]

Of course it would, you'd just depress the elevation enough to target the infantry. If it can move fast enough to target a low altitude high speed plane it can target infantry...

[simonr1978]

...and the same can be said about the pilot of an aircraft looking at ground units. Since planes "pop up" exactly at the right point, we must assume that the enemy has been identified, and as such, the plane already made a high-speed pass low on the battlefield. Thus justifying the "intercept" ability of AA units... If there would be a possibility of "drift" or "friendly fire" then yes, I must assume all you just said is true; but as it is not the case...

AFAIK attack aircraft largely attacked targets of opportunity, either as requested by ground forces or as a general "Enemy at X location...". They wouldn't do high speed low alt fly-overs to try and ID targets because it would alert the AAA gunners, there's a not unreasonable chance that the gunners would shoot them down on the fly-over and even if the enemy unit was not hostile there's still a good chance of being shot down as AAA gunners had a natural tendency to shoot first and question later.

I have certainly never heard of something as cumbersome as a Stuka doing a low altitude pass first, then climbing going around and attacking. That's practically suicidal.

Aside from that you are entirely correct that pilots had quite a difficult time IDing, attacking and hitting targets especially considering the relative short ranges of their weapons, infact one of the results of the Dieppe landings was that the RAF realised they had to seriously improve their ground support capabilities, instructed to begin firing at around 400 yards analysis showed that pilots were typically breaking off their runs at between 600-800!

[fifleche]

Yes, Simon1978! That's exactly my point! Since planes can pop-up basically when & where you want them, we must assume they have a very accurate information on the battlefield, as they are targeting an armor engagement where firing ranges are, on average, 400m between the adversaries. So, to gain this knowledge, they either:

1- made a low-flying pass. As pointed, it is stupid/suicidal.
2- are informed by forward observers. As modeled, they not enable attacks, they grant bonuses to attack.
3- just dive at random and take a potshot at a target of opportunity and get lucky not to target their own, all the time.

So?