Mobility, Defence, or Firepower?

[Der Leiter]

In the hopes of promoting some interesting debate I pose this poll/question:

In order, which do you prefer on a vehicle: Mobility Defence or Firepower?

Although I've listed some examples of units I feel fit into these categories, feel free to suggest your own. Also why do you prefer the selection you prefer?

[Thoes426]

For me:

1. Firepower = more dice more chances of success
2. Defense = the higher the better
3. Mobility = at least 3, don't want to take all day geting to high ground or a good cover spot

Thoes426

[fifleche]

Mobility = concentration of firepower. Dominate locally. Be everywhere at once.
Defense = survivability
Firepower = in this game, hits stack from one attack to the other. IRL, it doesn't. So IRL Firepower would be 2nd & defence 3rd. Pretty much TD's & Airplanes if we use MFD. As is, (Mobility Defense Firepower) I would say the Sherman family is what is corresponding the most.

[Der Leiter]

Just put the poll up.

As for me, I Mobility is generally my #1 consideration in any game except where one side is an entrenched defender (in which case mobility doesn't matter nearly as much). I like being able to flank, force my opponent onto my terms, rapidly bring firepower to where it's most needed, etc. And even being able to do strategic withdrawls when necessary. <b>Note</b> that Mobility does not necessarily mean speed. SA's like SS Determination / Veteran Crew and Strike & Fade greatly enhance the mobility of units. (And yes this means that aircraft are pretty much the pinnacle of my favoured units; but it also doesn't mean I'm foolish enough to base a whole army on lightly armoured units)

Firepower is my next concern. I need to be able to hit and hurt the target.

Defence is my least concern, though still an important one. I'm willing to make some small sacrifices if it'll help the survivability a little bit.

So technically for the Axis I believe the Puma would fall along these lines, and I'd probably use it if it weren't for the cost :(

[NorthernRommel]

Mobility = Positioning to maximize the number of guns you can bear on a single opponent target to minimize how many enemy can shoot back.

Firepower = Maximize chances of taking down a enemy that is bigger. (anyone on german......germans on russians)

Defense = Not as big an issue. Units will die. Luck will effect dice. People who concentrate on big tanks with high defense are spending too many points to put in one basket (King Tiger maybe being the exception - that is one annoying tank).

Cheaper units - More of them - allowing them to work in pairs. If the enemy gets one chances are his buddy will get the enemy.

[horacus]

Mobility: chance to suround you enemy
Firepower: chance to kill your opponent
defense: if you move fast and have good attack stats, you can suround and kill without seeking for a shoot against you, but , with better defence, better possibilities too.

[Der Leiter]

Seems Mobility - Firepower - Defence is pretty popular, and Defence - Mobility - Firepower is not. Hopefully it's not because of the Easy Eight example! :P

[RaidingParty]

Firepower is #1. Mobility is good sometimes, but weak against well-rounded tanks like the Soviets. Defense is good, but does not match well with Mobility (aka the Valentine II). Firepower alone can give you a tactical advantage. Many players are reluctant to put expensive tanks in range of a PAK 40 or a Ho-Ni.

Mobility is second, though Defense is a close third. Mobility can be important in multiple objective games, assault games, counterattacks, and escaping from infantry (try running from SS-PGs with a damaged Croc). Defense is good for close combat, tactical errors, holding ground, and being invulnerable at long range.

So, Firepower>Mobility>Defense. The Nashorn is a poor example this because it wasn't meant to be mobile. I prefer the Puma or Hellcat.

[PatrickWR]

Amazing that most people value mobility so much -- when you consider that you can start the game just a few hexes away from the objective! Don't kid yourselves -- there's a bare modicum of maneuvering in a "standard rulebook" game, apart from rushing the objective.

[Zhukov]

Firepower, Defense, Mobility. Now dont think because I said that I will field a tiger in every 100 pt game. It depends on my nationality, and points. Overall I feel having the best attack and power will do me best. Mobility, a strong defense can make mobilizing around impossiable. If you can set your self up so they must travel in open ground to get behind you the firepower I have will blow them away. If they get disrupted they are sitting ducks to my fire. Defense means a lot. If my defense is not good enough ducks or not I could be smashed.

Mobility. I can set up camp close to the objective. In smaller games even having low speed for tank battles doesnt effect me to much for I find my defense makes rear shots still hard and the firepower makes staying in the open a gamble.

Mobility can be very helpful and having one extra speed in one game would allow me to take some rear shots at his Shermans. I find mobilty best used for not exactling some massive flank or envelopment but being able to manever effectivly into those flanking or pinning areas without trouble. Forests often get in the way thus making mobility my last.

Overall I would say its tactics. My tactics and tactical ideas dont require speed nor my experiance ever needed speed as much as the others. As Ive said before all say it again.

Superior Firepower

I hope my post made sense. I just typed down my thoughts and ideas as they came into my mind.

[RaidingParty]

Amazing that most people value mobility so much -- when you consider that you can start the game just a few hexes away from the objective! Don't kid yourselves -- there's a bare modicum of maneuvering in a "standard rulebook" game, apart from rushing the objective.
It's true that in a "standard rulebook" game on maps up to 2x2, mobility is less useful. As the map gets larger or longer, mobility becomes more important for reaching the objective or strong positions first. But the best argument for mobility has to be in multiple-objective games.

I've recently played more turn-limited, multiple-objective games, and that's where mobility becomes really powerful. A fast tank squad may sweep through objectives one at a time without splitting up and diluting its firepower. A slow tank squad will often have to split its forces between objectives to take both of them in the time limit, leaving each part vulnerable to a swarm of fast tanks.

[Lotus]

Perfect example of mobility, DL. Gotta love the Panther.
I've found it's not just about getting to the objective first. It's the chessgame between tanks while the infantry get position. Speed of 4 is a must.

On the Allied side I'd pick the T-34/85, of course.

[Lotus]

Amazing that most people value mobility so much -- when you consider that you can start the game just a few hexes away from the objective! Don't kid yourselves -- there's a bare modicum of maneuvering in a "standard rulebook" game, apart from rushing the objective.

Even though I typically play on a 3 x 3' map, sometimes a tank battle comes down to cat and mouse around terrain w/in a small area. All SAs aside, the speed makes a big difference because sooner or later your opponent will miscalculate and you'll have the shot/kill on your terms.

On the bigger maps speed matters when you want to keep that extended range for Axis.

SAs are just the icing on the cake.

[Der Leiter]

Some pretty interesting results. Mobility only seems popular if it's got the firepower to back it up, otherwise it seems that a slow weapons platform-type unit that can take a beating is what people like.

[Gonash]

Dont forget Cost, it is a major factor !

# 1 Mobility
# 2 Firepower
# 3 Defence

I play 200 points game in a 2 X 3 maps and 100 points in standard maps.

You can't imagine how speed is great. All the kinda veteran player that know well the game can do miracle with unit like ; Cavalrymen, T-70, Stuart, Humber, Ha-Go, T-34, Jeep, Inspiring LT, Rhino, Paratrooper of any kind etc.........

For those who never play with Ha-Go, T-70 or Cavalrymen it's just because you dont know how to use them ! Just today i made a Cavalry charge in one of my game and in one charge i kill 2 MG-42, 1 SS-Officer, 1 German Sniper and 2 SSPG using 7 Cavalrymen and i loose 5 of the 7 Cavalrymen. So the German loose 48 points and i loose 20 points all that in just a turn ! Even a wall full of 30 SSPG wont be able to stop a calvalry that charge to reach the SS-Officer that is on the other side of some cover 4 hexes away ! With mobility you can do a lot. Can't wait to see if Cossack Cavalry will be better than the already great polish one we got :) !

About the T-70 ! Well that's a killer !!!!!!!! Just keep an eye on German sniper and you will be o.k. ( since sniper can put them immediatly disrupt and so wont fire in that turn ) If German is using any Panzer IV or Panther and you use some T-70, well the German player will learn a lot in his game :D !

So mobility is #1

What can you do with 18 dice if you cannot fire one shot in all the game because the ennemy is to fast and just evade you ? BUT if you got none you wont do much ! So it's # 2

Defence, well I win so many game with my T-26 Chinese army ! Not because of the Mighty 2/2 Armor. Ha-Go, T-26, 7tpdw, Panzer III, Sig 33 etc.... are all great and have the same chance to survive a King Tiger close range shot than a Sherman, Panzer IV etc... Thanks to the mighty cover save :D !

You got a 4/3 Stuart or a 1/1 jeep, armor wont help survive that King Tiger shot ! The only thing that can help is cover save and so the Stuart is = to the Jeep !

When a 15 point Stuart fire is 9 dice in the rear of SS-Panzer IV it doesnt matter if you got 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 armor in the front of the stuart, the Panzer will kill you anyway but the stuart's job is done and that is a big thanks to his Speed and his Firepower !

So Armor # 3

Just what i think from my little experience ............. :)

[Joisey]

I chose Mobility>Firepower>Defense and was surprised to find myself in the overwhelming majority. I guess great minds think alike. :)

Seriously, I thought I'd be in the minority because my local group, Battle Group New Jersey, favors much larger maps then are generally discussed on the Boards here, so obviously mobility is a premium comodity for us. Plus, my personal style of play is epitomized by the T34/85.

[Stojakovic]

Superior Firepower[/FONT]



Defence wins championships. You can't win if you can't hit me. Which is why I love my tigers and crocs :p

[hornet69]

no defense does not win champion ships .the majority of the times i saw you play you won on the offense not defense.

[Beagle]

no defense does not win champion ships .the majority of the times i saw you play you won on the offense not defense.
I Agree With You The Only Good Defense is a Good Offense. You Can Not You Sit ON Your Hands All the Time.Talked in My Youth to a Lot of Old German Tankers . All and all They Told Me There Experiences in the War. And it Was To Always if Possible to Attack Whether on Defense or Offense

[Der Leiter]

Dont forget Cost, it is a major factor !

Cost is a factor in the game, but I'm just interested in what you prefer overall :) The examples I gave are just those, it's not a contest between the vehicles I listed, and I'm sure theres more (and probably) better examples I could list in some cases.


You can't imagine how speed is great. All the kinda veteran player that know well the game can do miracle with unit like ; Cavalrymen, T-70, Stuart, Humber, Ha-Go, T-34, Jeep, Inspiring LT, Rhino, Paratrooper of any kind etc.........

I swear by units like the T-70 and Stuart. I've had a few opponents field a King Tiger and sneer at my T-70 swarms, then prompty get ripped apart by them. Sure they take out 1-2, but the exchange is worth it. The Polish Cavalry are great too, especially with determined charge which makes their mobility that much better; if you go second just move in.. if they disrupted you, and they probably will, it goes away at the end of the turn anyway.

For those who never play with Ha-Go, T-70 or Cavalrymen it's just because you dont know how to use them !

Not necessarily. Everyone has their own preferences, and sometimes focusing too much one one aspect can leave a weakness for your opponent to exploit.

[Der Leiter]

Anyone have any further comments before I write up the article?

[Lynx7725]

Anyone have any further comments before I write up the article?
Well, it really depends on what you are trying to do.

An offensive army tends to be one of two types -- fast, mobile army designed to flank and encircle the enemy (the typical blitzkrieg units), and slow, firepower heavy units designed to assault the enemy.

A defensive army also tends to be of two types. The slow tank (or defense in depth) which tends to favour high defense over mobility, and the mobile reserves, with emphasis on speed rather than defense.

I think the better question is that amongst this triad, which is the least important? To me, mobility allows me to dictate engagement, so that's key; firepower allows me to destroy the enemy quickly, freeing me up to be mobile. Defense allows me to take the incidental shots, so while it's important, I'll have to say it's the least important.

[Der Leiter]

Well there's always certain situations where one aspect might not be as important as another; as a defender I'm not always overly concerned about mobility although I do like a few rapid response units.

Some time after the poll I realized I had perhaps missed an option for Mobility, Firepower and Defence being equally important (eg T-34/76), which is average in everything but great at none.

[Lynx7725]

Hence why I say it really depends on what you want to do. I bet Rommel didn't like slow, armour heavy and huge firepower units -- he's more of a cavalryman from descriptions, preferring a mobile battle.

As for the "balanced" unit.. it's a great "do-everything" unit but personally I've always found such units to be lacking. It can move fast but not fast enough, shoot but not hard enough, take damage but not enough. It's generally better to specialize in 2 areas than to try to be good at everything.

The only RL unit that I truly consider "balanced" in WWII is probably the M4 Sherman. It's got decent speed, decent firepower and decent armour.. but it's never quite enough in any one area. It's an average unit that's capable of doing everything especially in large numbers, exactly the way the Americans deployed them. Tactically, it hampered the Americans to some degree; strategically, the Sherman is about the most important armour unit in WWII.

I would actually consider the T-34 as having more emphasis on defense, given that most people consider it to be a well-armoured unit. It's got good speed and a good gun too, but what stands out relatively is that it's well protected.

[Zhukov]

Defence wins championships. You can't win if you can't hit me. Which is why I love my tigers and crocs :p
I guess I left this out but by supirior firepower the minis im thinking of are Tigers and minis with huge defense and good attack. Also like a croc. A Brummbar is a nice example too. Yet the other thing is, having high defense is something I never need to stress about having in my games. Either I already have it or its not as valued or needed as firepower is to me. If a King Tiger and a bunch of other heavy hitters cant blow up your croc then nothing in the game can which would be so utterly retarded I wouldnt be playing in that "championship" in the first place.

[Y2UAsk]

Because hits stack and disruption/damage severely limit your ability to inflict hits, I voted for firepower-mobility-defense. The way to win is to quickly establish fire superiority over the opponent, and being able to rely on your first shot disrupting or damaging the target is a great way to do that. At the very least, it makes your opponent think twice before exposing units to your attack. Mobility is nearly as important, because it lets you choose the terms of engagement and more easily overwhelm just a portion of enemy units with the majority of yours. Choosing between the two is tough, but if forced to, I go with firepower. You can compensate for low defence with cover and by always having more gun tubes in the exchange, but there's no substitute for rolling more dice than the other guy.

Steve