Help with capital capturing question

[Frog]

Just played a weird game, Weird to me and I need help with a question. I was the Axis and was pushing to Moscow from the North. My counterpart was pushing to Germany from the South at the same time. I captured Moscow on Germany's turn and took his IPC's. On Russia's turn he took Germany. Now here's the debate:

1) Can Russia take back their IPc's and Germany's, even though they have no capital? And if so Germany went next and still held Moscow, should they re-collect from Russia?

2) It ended with Russia getting all the IPC's and Japan taking Moscow thus getting all Russias and Germany's IPC's.

I argued in the rule book it said (P18) " a player cannot collect income from any territories he or she still controls until their capital is liberated." I reasoned they could not collect Germany's IPC's because they were collect those IPC's as a result of controling a territory.

They argued the rules state you take all IPC's from a captured capital, regarless if you own a capital.

??????response????????

[pagan]

Funny.

germany took USSR's capital moscow, so germany gets all of Russia's IPCs.

Then Ussr takes Germany's capital berlin, so Germany must give up all of its IPCs to USSR.

The funny thing is that no one can collect any IPCs in their collect IPC phase until they recover their capital. AND they cannot spend any IPCs they have until they have their capitals back.

Taking IPCs from a player for capturing his capital is NOT the same as collecting IPCs in the Collect IPCs phase.

[ March 28, 2004, 03:14 AM: Message edited by: PAGAN ]

[DY]

Without a shoadow of a doubt the USSR will capture all of Germany's IPC's as this is done immediately (in the combat phase), whereas "collecting income" is in a different (lster) phase.

No player may collect income (in the collect income phase) while his captial remains in enemy hands.

Ofcourse the Soviets cannot use these IPCs to purchase units or roll for tech until Russia is liberated.

[Bismarck]

I have always thought it was a strange rule that you would get your opponent's money when you conquer the capital. I think it would be much more suitable that if you capture Moscow, Russia would concede all its money to the bank.

[DocD]

It's not strange Bismark. It is the old "to the winner goes the spoils" axiom. Besides, what winning side wants to turn over all of that gold bullion they find in an abandon salt mine. :eek:

[Frog]

Thanks for the thoughts. I still am still a little unclear, especially when I consider this;

When Its Germany's turn and if they still held they Russian capital, does Germany get all the IPC's back again?? I know neither could purchase units or collect income, but it seems an endless exchange of IPC's between Germany and Russia?

I ended up having a stonger Japan than his UK, so I was able to liberate Germany and win the game. I was however perplexed by the way things played out.

[ButchOHare1]

When you capture an enemy's capital you get to sieze all their IPCs. If you hold the capital subsequent turns you don't get to sieze their IPCs. The only situation in which they would have any IPCs is the situation you described where they captured a capital while their own capital was under enemy control. If you capture an enemy's capital while your capital is under enemy control you have to save your money. You can't buy anything with the money you siezed until your own capital is liberated. If you liberate your capital, and then it is retaken by the enemy the same turn you really lose: you lose the IPCs you plundered and were saving, plus the IPCs you collected that turn. Be careful not to liberate Moscow from Germany only to have it retaken by Japan. That is turning a probable win into a probable loss.

[Juggernaut]

That does seem odd.

Either Germany gets the money back right away for holding moscow, or they never turn over the money to Russia in the first place (perhaps the rules make the assumption you have a capital to take the spolis of war).

Otherwise, no one could ever take 80+ IPC from Russia -- even if they were totally wiped out -- and that's sort of stupid.

[ March 28, 2004, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: Juggernaut ]

[Mike Selinker]

This situation came up in a previous post.

capital capturing question (http://boards.avalonhill.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=000398)

The entire bank of Germany passes to the USSR player, because as PAGAN says, collecting IPCs is not the same as collecting income. But of course, the USSR player can't do anything with this windfall.

Mike