Using Fixed Formations in game play - Quick N Historic

[NorthernRommel]

Hey folks. I said on another thread that I would post a link too some of the Fixed Formations of units so you could take a look at what I mean by having fixed units that you buy in larger blocks at cheaper prices. I put a link below to some of the basic German 1939-40 era units as a sampler.

The goal of Fixed formations is to provide some semblance of balanced play, historic play, and give those who dont want to play power armies a slightly more fair and historic edge. It gives new players a better introduction to the game as well, since you must learn the historic tactics of combined unit operation in reall WWII situations.

These units are priced in fix blocks of 25pts each, making tournament and large point scenarios easier to organize. So having a 200pt tournament is much easier to have ready. Pick a few platoons, pick out the pieces, and your ready to go. You can cut out the cards and use them in a deck that allows you to randomly pick available units within a operational level campaign if you like.

These are the crude initial cards - but they give you the idea. Let me know what you think. I intend to do a larger card set if enough people want to use them.

**** NOTE **** NOTE ***** NOTE

I have edited this post to add links as I go for new German and Russian Front units. Check back here and I will post further links as I get them ready, or I will just post to a index page I set up for it. The pages have been updated so if you have the old one from last night you may want to check it again.

American Infantry and Early Tank Units

http://www.geocities.com/opmgames/AxisAndAllies/aa_AmerFixed1.html

American Recon and AT Hunting Teams

http://www.geocities.com/opmgames/AxisAndAllies/aa_AmerFixed2.html

German Early War Infantry Units and Scouting Units

http://www.geocities.com/opmgames/AxisAndAllies/aa_GermansFixed.html

German Early War Mechanized Units and SS Units

http://www.geocities.com/opmgames/AxisAndAllies/aa_GermansFixed2.html

Its a 255K JPG image - so for some of you it might take a little bit to load.

Comments in regards to what you want to see welcome.

[Old Tanker]

Looks good, thanks for all the hard work

[Uncle_Joe]

Looks great. I really like the idea behind it. It also allows for a little 'correction' of various unit costs (ie, Halftracks and regular PzGr can be bought in quantity for a discount etc).

Out of curiousity, what are 'Trucks' in game play?

Thanks!

[skystalker]

This a great idea and really helpful in quick setup. Maybe these should be added to the HHR page?.....thanks for the effort!

[NorthernRommel]

Looks great. I really like the idea behind it. It also allows for a little 'correction' of various unit costs (ie, Halftracks and regular PzGr can be bought in quantity for a discount etc).

Out of curiousity, what are 'Trucks' in game play?

Thanks!

Yeap thats the idea.

Oh yeah sorry I looked at adapting kids little trucks for use as a homebrew pieces to allow better play :-? Hopefully they will have some in the next expansion set too. I use these unit constructs for my own HO scale game as well.

I will try to get the others up before the weekend otherwise.....

[fifleche]

Those are great!

Nice work!

:D

[CdtWeasel]

Neat stuff, can see that being useful

[Thoes426]

NorthernRommel -
An excellent idea and I hope to see more!
Thanks for posting these!
Thoes426

[scorpnoire]

Will we see such neat sheets for allied units too?

What point costs did you took as basis for calculating those?

[Joisey]

The point discount is quite a bargain.

[NorthernRommel]

Yes I will do allied sheets - hopefully by end of today for Basic American and Russian units.

Just a note -- keep in mind that I put these up as a sample to explain what I mean by Fixed Units. There needs to be be some playtesting done to some extent on using a couple of the cards.

The points savings on average are 5 to 10 pts per 25pts you would normally spend. Given that some of the German tanks like the Pzkw IV G and Panthers and halftracks are somewhat overpriced anyhow, using fixed units will in an average 100pt game give you about 120pts worth of units.

Some units are theatre specific and are meant to represent how common some vehicle combinations were in that theatre of war. An example is the Pzkw II/ Kfz222 and motorcycle group in France and Russian war. Or the Panzer IV/III combos in Barbarossa. If you look at the bottom right corner there is a remark in regards to where they should be used exclusively or not.
When I do the North Africa units you will see more of that. However given the lack of some key units (like trucks) then using some cards will have to be with HHR rules only.

NOTE: The Tank Support Platoon had the wrong price on it. It should be 50pts and has been fixed.

The catch is that you dont really pick the units, but you do have some leeway in the Platoon or Section composition, depending on the year and theatre in which you are playing. But I think I got the balance pretty much right given the limited units we can use. When the next expansion comes out I will expand them a little better.

The scenarios I am doing will for example allow you to pick 100pts in fixed units (or assign 100pts in fixed units), and then you get an extra 50 pts to buy extra units as you would normally.

Using the cards should allow you to introduce random reinforcements as well in some of the half and half scenarios.

[Neviim]

NorthernRommel

My hats off to you man this is excellent. Very similar to a set up me and my group use for large scenario games (1000-1500pts), However I never thought to do it in this way particularly. Nicely done sir, I look forward to more and will be using this set up tonight.

[NorthernRommel]

NorthernRommel

My hats off to you man this is excellent. Very similar to a set up me and my group use for large scenario games (1000-1500pts), However I never thought to do it in this way particularly. Nicely done sir, I look forward to more and will be using this set up tonight.

Happy Gamers are always good too see :cool:

[mlund]

I'd recommend this sort of scale for the points, as I feel some of them went a little too low or rounded off to the nearest 5 poorly.

How about this:

Units taken to compose the following squadron have the point cost reduced as follows, with all discounts stacking:

Standard - 1 point
Artillary - 1 point
Half-track - 1 point
German Tank - 1 point

This way you don't have to worry about min-maxing the trade-offs of Panzerfausts vs. Panzershrecks etc.

So your Luftwaffe AA Infantry Section - A would price out like this:

Infantry Men [8]
MG42 [9]
20mm AA Gun [6]

23 points

Of course, I go to do another example and Geocities gives me the bandwidth exceded routine. :*(

Great idea though. I really like it. You should shoot it over in WotC's direction. Maybe that could make promo cards out of it - something like what they do with their Living D&D campaign cards.

- Marty Lund

[NorthernRommel]

Yeah sorry about the bandwidth thing - I forgot they had lowered it. Will look into putting on this forum perhaps, and then people just save the JPG and print it. I rather put them in PDFs but I dont currently have Adobe.

I am not sure I understand exactly what you are saying in your post, but I get the general jist. Right now I am trying to keep the points for basic units in 25pt intervals - but no doubt there will be a need for more variable 20 pt, 30pt, 40pt units etc over time.

The other idea was to attach victory points and simple rarity values to each card for deck building and perhaps extra victory points if that entire unit is wiped out. That will take a little more testing first - and eventually making the cards color and graphic based will be done when its a little better ironed out. I left them black, white, and gray for now cause not everyone can afford to print in color either.

[mlund]

I am not sure I understand exactly what you are saying in your post, but I get the general jist. Right now I am trying to keep the points for basic units in 25pt intervals - but no doubt there will be a need for more variable 20 pt, 30pt, 40pt units etc over time.

Well, my proposal is basically to avoid setting a fixed cost per Squadron / Platoon and just have a small set of cost-reductions that are applied to any units bought as part of the Squadron / Platoon. That way you don't just completely ignore the 2 point difference between a Panzershreck and a Panzerfaust when doing substitutions.

Even Chinese food menus have things like "substitute shrimp for pork - $0.50."

So just making it a simple point rebate per unit in the Squad / Platoon allows the price to vary when you substitute a historically acceptable piece that costs more or less that the standard one (such as a Panzershreck for a Panzerfaust).

That causes numbers that don't line up on neat little 10's and 5's, but they really don't need to be that precise since the rest of your force can be ala cart to fill in gaps.

- Marty Lund

[Blighty]

Well done m8 for a very refreshing idea. Waiting for other stats in anticipation.. :)

[Arontje]

Great work! I had something like this in my mind (sorta, but I am too lazy to do anything :p )

Seems real good to me.

['panzer' Mayer]

good stuff

[Vulturedoodle]

Excellent idea and approach. Have to ask where you got your numbers, though. A Wehrmacht platoon (Zug) would have no less than 4 LMGs (Volksgrenadiers three). Hard to break down properly with AAM, as every squad had at least 1 LMG, with the rifles acting to support it. Six Mauser Squads to one MG42 is pretty far off the mark. Even the optional version (four and two) seems to reverse the proportions.

Still, I very much like what you've done. Refreshing and pleasing.

Regards,
Steve F.

[Uncle_Joe]

I look at the individual Infantry units as Squads or or least sections. Also, like ASL, you have to kind of assume that some for of support weapons are built in to a certain extent.

[NorthernRommel]

Excellent idea and approach. Have to ask where you got your numbers, though. A Wehrmacht platoon (Zug) would have no less than 4 LMGs (Volksgrenadiers three). Hard to break down properly with AAM, as every squad had at least 1 LMG, with the rifles acting to support it. Six Mauser Squads to one MG42 is pretty far off the mark. Even the optional version (four and two) seems to reverse the proportions.

Still, I very much like what you've done. Refreshing and pleasing.

Regards,
Steve F.

See Below,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[NorthernRommel]

Sixth Attempt..........grrrrrrrrrrrrr

Yeah I agree it requires some contortions to live within the minis available and trying to put together balanced units. I considered 1 MG Team per 2 Mausers but I figured that would so throw balance out it would cause too many problems. I am assuming at this point the MG teams are more then just one MG42, and that most Mauser squads are at most 6 men.

In regards to your other comment about one MG42 per squad, I didnt think that ratio was the case in the early war for sure. I read it was only post DDay Panzer Grens that had that kind of ration (and some units in Barbarossa)
see next paragraph.

Even one MG42 per two mausers for Eastern Front units (which I am going to add as a particular Barbarossa Wehrmarcht Assault Infantry Platoon for city fighting, I think that ratio may be a bit high. I'll try it, but it will make one kick butt platoon. The Germans did more with less, but in this game thats not well reflected.

In regards to research I have been on a couple of web sites, but also looking through old copies of Wargamer and S&T. One thing is for sure, doing larger scale units that are more authentic is going to be difficult with key German minis missing. From small howitzers to Marders, Russian MGs -- those key minis mean some units I just can't do 100%. Other little things like the fact that the MG42 teams should have +1 cover, and really should cost 3 points less are things I cannot fix either.

If you see what you think are mistakes like that then by all means point them out. The hammer and nails are still in motion. Sorry its not perfect, but it should improve playability.

I have added values for rarity in regards to the Brigade level deck (3rd box) and victory point values at unit level instead of at the overpriced mini level which is the 1st box. How this works I will explain in later posts.

[Vulturedoodle]

In regards to your other comment about one MG42 per squad, I didnt think that ratio was the case in the early war for sure. I read it was only post DDay Panzer Grens that had that kind of ration (and some units in Barbarossa)
No. At no time during the war did German organization have less than one LMG (MG34 early war, MG42 mid-late war) per squad. I have a good bit of printed documentation at home, but here's a decent URL with specific makeups for each phase of the war:

http://www-solar.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/~aaron/WW2ORG/ger.html

Regardless, as you say, it's difficult to make the leap from AAM minis to historical formations without serious gymnastics. Especially when there's no hard and fast definition of what each figure represents.

--SEF

[Vulturedoodle]

One could, using your discount method, represent an early war German rifle platoon for, say, 50 points. The actual composition of a 1939-41 platoon was as follows:

1 Platoon Leader with Rifle or SMG
Platoon HQ Team
1 Platoon HQ Leader with Rifle
1 Messenger with Rifle
1 Messenger with Rifle
1 Messenger with Sniper Rifle
1 Medic with Pistol
Mortar Team
1 Mortar Leader with Rifle
1 Mortar man 1 with Pistol and 50mm Mortar
1 Mortar man 2 with Pistol
3 or 4 Groups
1 Group Leader with Rifle or SMG
1 Machinegun man 1 with Pistol and LMG
1 Machinegun man 2 with Pistol
1 Machinegun man 3 with Rifle
1 Infantry man with rifle
1 Infantry man with rifle
1 Infantry man with rifle
1 Infantry man with rifle
1 Infantry man with rifle
1 Infantry man with rifle

Going with 3 squads, and representing the HQ unit with a single figure, one could use the following:

MK98 Rifle x3 (9 pts)
MG42 LMG x3 (30 pts)
Lt. Mortar x1 (4 pts)
W. Oberlt x1 (13 pts)
TOTAL = 56 points, discounted to 50 points for platoon purchase

Good firepower, reasonably historical. It's a thought.

--SEF

[Uncle_Joe]

That would be 50 points for almost nil AT capability though. The MGs just inflate the cost too much for what you are likely to face in the game.

[NorthernRommel]

Well after reading links provided (good btw) I will change the organization of both the base infantry unit and the assault infantry unit. Not perfectly historical I know, but it will provide a closer representation. I have changed the German unit sheet to reflect that and have added the Assault Platoon.
I will move the Motorized Platoon to the AT and Heavy Tank sheet (#3).

Basic Infantry Platoon (25 pts)

4x Mauser 12pts
2x MG-42 20pts
1x Light Mortar 4pts

38pts for 25pts

You may swap one mauser for Panzerfaust / Panzersheck (max twice) or SMG

Assault Infantry Platoon (50 pts)

5x Mauser 15pts
5x MGTeams 50pts
1x Light Mortar 4 pts

You may swap one mauser for Panzerfaust / Panzersheck (max twice) or SMG

69 pts for 50pts

Assuming there will be a future SMG unit probably similiar to Stormtrooper.

How does this configuration strike people? German MG teams should only be around 7pts anyhow, so thats not much of a stretch. If you stick two squads per Halftrack like I suggested before it would make more sense too, but for the Mechanized sections now it will have to be 100pts for the unit to be on wheels (still a bargain at AAM prices). Dam I wish we had sanctioned truck minis now. Time too visit the dollar store again to do some scrounging lol.

BTW the American units are up if you check the links on the first post. I need to do some checking on the British stuff before putting it up, but I hope to have at least basic Russians up later today. I will put a single link to a menu page as well so people can visit that easier.

In regards to AT support, there will be AT teams and Tank Hunters Recon Team and of course you can swap out for Faust/Shecks if you want. Lack of the Marders and such really kinda impact the tank support. A basic STUG unit will have to do for now.

[Vulturedoodle]

That would be 50 points for almost nil AT capability though. The MGs just inflate the cost too much for what you are likely to face in the game.
That's what the other fifty points (or one-hundred-fifty, or whatever) is for. The goal was making historical (well, kinda historical) units, and rewarding a historically-minded player with a quick-buy method that isn't simply a helter-skelter mix many (most?) people tend to use.

Yeah, a more effective army can be built. That's not the point.

--SEF

[Uncle_Joe]

Well, what I'm saying is that if the opponent has a similar force, you have 3 MGs that totally dominate any infantry that they might have (again, assuming a similar Company-style unit with 3-4 Rifle units). After that, your MGs dont do so much.

So, I guess what my point would be is that the ratio of MGs to Infantry seem too high. The MG42 in the game seems to be more of 'heavy' or 'medium' mounting (akin the Vickers and the Type 97, neither of which is a squad level weapon). So, having 3 Medium MGs per Platoon seems out of whack and it doesnt reflect well in actual gameplay either.

To me, I'd consider the MG42 game piece to be the support from Company or Battalion level, not something that every squad has inherent.

YMMV.

[Der Leiter]

A very interesting system and I think I will end up using somethig quite like it to speed up our campaign games as my Warhammer-esque ones can cause some players to take a long time building armies.

[Vulturedoodle]

Well, what I'm saying is that if the opponent has a similar force, you have 3 MGs that totally dominate any infantry that they might have (again, assuming a similar Company-style unit with 3-4 Rifle units). After that, your MGs dont do so much.
Presumably, if you're using this system, your opponent will also be buying his units from the same list. At least that's the only way *I'd* be doing it. :)

So, I guess what my point would be is that the ratio of MGs to Infantry seem too high. The MG42 in the game seems to be more of 'heavy' or 'medium' mounting (akin the Vickers and the Type 97, neither of which is a squad level weapon). So, having 3 Medium MGs per Platoon seems out of whack and it doesnt reflect well in actual gameplay either.
Not quite sure if we're talking on the same wavelength. Whether it seems too high or not, that's the historical ratio of LMGs for the Germans: one (and in the case of PGs, two) per squad.

To me, I'd consider the MG42 game piece to be the support from Company or Battalion level, not something that every squad has inherent.

YMMV.
Again, I suspect we're doing apples and oranges or something. In a historical context it *was* inherent to every squad. There were were also LMG and HMG platoons, but that wasn't what I was trying to represent.

Regards,
Steve F.

[NorthernRommel]

Yes Joe I agree with you that it will make the Germans tough opponents. But I more or less factored some of that into the changes to the American and Russian Builds - but I just need to test the units.

A German Assault Platoon costs 50pts. You can buy 2 American Infantry Platoons with much superior numbers for the same price.

Considering ......
1) the Ami usually had more people (hence why their infantry units are a tad more cost effective and I may still increase the number of riflemen you get for them).
2) also there is a need to compensate a little for the lack of 30 cal or 50 cal in the game.
3) Use of more Bar Gunners does negate the MGs pretty well - even using hidden unit rules.

Personally I think they should have given the Halftracks double shot or double squad transport as that would make more sense to explain their high point cost -- but hey it nots my game.

When I first played AAM a few months back, I built a MG heavy German force. Yes it did very well, but at that time we did not have snipers and other other such things. I am still debating making the rarity factor of the Assault Platoon a little bit lower, but truthfully the other guys are right. Germans made good use with usually number inferiority to both Russian and Amer/British forces. If you do use the Fixed unit system then I think you will find it reflects that the Americans typically had more people. Right now thats the only way I can see to restore a historic balance.

Whats really missing is the Artillery rules, which the Americans and Russians also used to great effect. That and more officers that provide units in the same hex with +1 cover etc etc. Adding rules for Indirect Fire would be easy to do, but I the problem is how many venues or judges will allow it if WOTC does not sanction it?

PS: IF the Brits and Russians are up tonight they will be late. I have to go out to a game. Sorry about that folks.

[Uncle_Joe]

Not quite sure if we're talking on the same wavelength. Whether it seems too high or not, that's the historical ratio of LMGs for the Germans: one (and in the case of PGs, two) per squad.

You are definately correct on the ratio of LMGs to Squads. I was just pointing out that the MG42 in the game appears to not be an LMG but more like the Vickers/Type 97 which would come from the MG Platoons up higher.

Of course they also model individual BARs to, so who knows? Personally, I dont believe that a single BAR could put out as much firepower as a squad (8/6) but it could be a few BARs or perhaps a fireteam or whatnot.

But so far, we havent seen any of the other squad LMGs modeled (Bren, Nambu, DP etc). So, my inclination would be to assume that these are built into the squads and that the MGs included are heavier, non squad-based teams.

Barring that, perhaps consider that each infantry piece is a half a squad or a fire team so that a German Infantry Platoon might be 6 Mausers and 3 MG42s while an Ami might be 6 or 8 M1s and 3 or 4 BARs?

Anyways, just spitballing here. I just think in practice (ie, in the game), the heavy preponderance of MGs to standard infantry pieces is going feel odd and not quite like WW2.

[phoenix]

Great idea NorthernRommel.
I'll have to try these out when I get the time.

[Vulturedoodle]

Of course they also model individual BARs to, so who knows? Personally, I dont believe that a single BAR could put out as much firepower as a squad (8/6) but it could be a few BARs or perhaps a fireteam or whatnot.
On this I'm definitely with you. I've always had a problem with the comparitively enormous firepower of a single BAR or officer figure. With the officer, I get around it by letting it represent the entire command group, but even late war US squads had no more than 2 BARs. Entire squads of BAR-armed troops was, in my reading, unheard of. Plus, they were heavy.

But so far, we havent seen any of the other squad LMGs modeled (Bren, Nambu, DP etc). So, my inclination would be to assume that these are built into the squads and that the MGs included are heavier, non squad-based teams.
No, I don't agree with this. MG42 was an GPMG; it easily switched between the LMG-version (bipod) to the extended fire version with a tripod mount. The configuration used simply depended on the tactical situation (assault or gone-to-ground). Whether it came from regimental reserve or was integral to the squad didn't matter.

Barring that, perhaps consider that each infantry piece is a half a squad or a fire team so that a German Infantry Platoon might be 6 Mausers and 3 MG42s while an Ami might be 6 or 8 M1s and 3 or 4 BARs?

Anyways, just spitballing here. I just think in practice (ie, in the game), the heavy preponderance of MGs to standard infantry pieces is going feel odd and not quite like WW2.
I've considered this, and think it might be the best way to go (except for the 3 or 4 BARs). Six rifles and 3 MGs for the German rifle platoon might be a good compromise, and won't add much to the cost. Food for thought.

I like Rommel's approach because I envision buying armies solely from a list of standard units (rather than figures) for a 10% discount, then fleshing out (i.e., augmenting) the force with individual, full-cost figures (like panzerfausts).

Regards,
Steve F.

[NorthernRommel]

Sorry Gang but the Brits and Russian stuff will have to wait til tomorrow night. I hashed out some of the constructs with my gaming buddies, and the need to substitute SMLE for regular Russian infantry looks like the only way to solve their lack of current infantry for some units. Reliance on Mosint Nagins just does not sit well, and not all Russian troops were conscripts like that.

Will get back to you as soon as I can on this.

Another thing to consider in the MG42 issue is that most people have more Mauser or SSPG minis then MG42s anyhow. If we go with the 1 and 1 that was proposed by another poster it will also make armies dam impossible to build. No one has that many MG42s.

I do think the intent of the designers was to assume some things like LMGs in the unit already, and the the MG42s are separate fire teams -- but since none of it is canon then for now we will go with what I have there and see how that works.

Cheers

[Photoner Hawkwind]

Sorry Gang but the Brits and Russian stuff will have to wait til tomorrow night. I hashed out some of the constructs with my gaming buddies, and the need to substitute SMLE for regular Russian infantry looks like the only way to solve their lack of current infantry for some units. Reliance on Mosint Nagins just does not sit well, and not all Russian troops were conscripts like that.

Will get back to you as soon as I can on this.

Another thing to consider in the MG42 issue is that most people have more Mauser or SSPG minis then MG42s anyhow. If we go with the 1 and 1 that was proposed by another poster it will also make armies dam impossible to build. No one has that many MG42s.

I do think the intent of the designers was to assume some things like LMGs in the unit already, and the the MG42s are separate fire teams -- but since none of it is canon then for now we will go with what I have there and see how that works.

Cheers

All German squads were built around the light machine gun. But, you may want to consider them as already in the squads and use the machine gun unit as the platoon machine gun. Then have platoon composition of 1 officer, 1 machine gun, 3 infantry squads, and if you have enough panzerfausts include 3 of them. Also you could include 4 halftracks for a mech platoon. (You would have to allow for 2 units per haltrack as a previous poster suggested.)