Rules Discussion 1a - Attempted Submerge

[GROGnads]

YOUR HEAD A SPLODE!:D

[cousin_joe]

This message comes from Mike Selinker from another thread. I've changed my proposed Rule Change so subs get an Attempted Submerge rather than an Automatic Submerge. Read on...

quote:
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Mike Selinker
Member
Member # 553

posted March 30, 2004 12:48 AM
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quote (me):
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I started a thread about the vulnerability of lone subs to airpower and would appreciate your comments about the possibility of bringing back the option to submerge on the Initial Attack Phase (as a 2nd printing rule change). It would seem with the changes to Destroyers (preventing sub submerge) and transports unloading in Sub Occupied SZ, that the substalling tactic is well addressed, and removing the Initial Attack Phase submerge option is harmful (to overall sub viability) and unnecessary. Would you mind sharing your thoughts on things... Is there something I'm missing?? Thanks kindly.
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I generally stay out of these discussions, especially the polls. If I ever have an influence on a revised or advanced set of rules, I'll share my opinions then. I will say that I've given some thought to making subs less vulnerable to strafes, but giving subs the ability to submerge immediately is not the way I'd do it, at least not currently.

Mike

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I'm glad to see he agrees that subs are indeed vulnerable to strafes in their current state. And thinking about it more, I can see reasons why not to give them the immediate submerge ability (this would give aircraft NO chance to hit a SUB, which might be going too far in the other direction). If we can't have immediaet submerge, then this is the solution I would propose...

-Instead of an Immediate Submerge on the Initial Combat Phase, SUBs get an Attempted Submerge (ie. defending SUBs choose between utilizing their First Shot Attack, vs. Attempting to "Dive!, Dive!, Dive!" and Avoid Combat).

-Unlike A&AP where this Dive is automatic, SUBs must roll a proficiency roll to be successful. The exact number is debatable. Here is a comparison...

% Chance of Lone Aircraft sinking Lone SUB:

Current Rules with no dive: FTR 50% BMBR 67%
Proficiency Roll 3 or less: FTR 25% BMBR 33%
Proficiency roll 4 or less: FTR 17% BMBR 22%

Using a 3 or less is easy to remember (50/50 chance), and gives the sub some hope. Using a 4 or less makes SUBs much more playable, and would also encourage increased use of Destroyers to prevent that Sub Submerge. Under the current rules, their is not much point buying SUBs or DESTs.

-To push my point further, Super Subs and Combined Bombardment (along with Jet Power) are the least desired techs. Getting Super Subs should also increase your Dive Proficiency Roll by one point as well (to a 4 or 5). Now those would be Super Subs!!! With the encouragement of Subs, Destroyers become important too, thus making Combined Bombardment more useful as well. The Atlantic was such a great theater in WW2, but in A&A it becomes nonexistent by the 2nd round.

-This Rule Change would be easily applied across all types of Sea Combat. Also, if the SUB were to miss it's Attemted Submerge, it will still get a chance to defend, but does not get it's First Shot Attack, only a regular attack.

-What I like most about this Rule Change is how it similates the actual situation. Sub sees aircraft and attempts to dive. Sometimes it's successful, sometimes it isn't. Anyways, tell me what you think of this change. Over and out.

[stangrossman]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cousin_joe:
[QB]This message comes from Mike Selinker from another thread. I've changed my proposed Rule Change so subs get an Attempted Submerge rather than an Automatic Submerge. Read on...

[snip]

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Well, I can't speak for c_j, but here is how I see this in a condensed fashion:

Subs may roll for an immediate submerge check in the initial combat round and avoid combat by rolling a 3 or less (4 or less for supersubs). Enemy destroyers prevent subs from making this initial submerge check. Subs that attempt and fail the immediate submerge check may defend normally, but forfeit their "first strike" bonus. Subs may submerge normally per the rules in any subsequent rounds.

Am I close? smile.gif

If so, I really like this proposal a lot. The
3 or less dr is certainly debatable, but I think it fills a good niche and is good a compromise. Some (me included initialy) felt one solution was to keep all subs on top for one round, but reduce say fighters(or all air?) to a hit on a 2, others said maybe a 1. What is interesting is that this proposed rule, for fighters alone vs subs alone, for one initial round of combat is identical to all subs staying on top for one round, and the fighters rolling to kill for a 1.5 or less on the dice. Except we don't a 1.5 pip on our dice. ;)

But the nice thing is, it still allows a player to attack subs alone with air alone if they choose to, and have a chance of killing them, but with half the chance for reg subs. I like this. Bring on other assets, like DD's with your air vs. subs, and you put them in a serious binds, which is how it should be.

A player can also think of this "initial submerge rule" in 2 ways...either the subs by chance submerge to avoid the air attack, or the air unit(s) simply cannot find the sub. In effect, the dr becomes dual purpose and includes a "detection factor".

And "supersubs" should have an increased chance of being missed by air. That was the main reason they were designed for.

Anyway, I like this....

Stan

[cousin_joe]

Thanks Stan,

I will post exactly as you have condensed it.

[IanD]

In a similar vein, should destroyers automatically prevent subs from submerging? This could be restricted to one sub per destroyer anyway, but subs could also attempt to submerge away from a destroyer by rolling a 1 (2 if super-subs).If successful, destroyer(s) could have an option of a special single depth-charge attack (instead of firing on other enemy units that round) being successful on a 1-3. Tough choice if there are other active enemy units in the SZ! Destroyer would be able in following combat rounds to participate in battle as normal. Maybe some would feel this prolongs an issue and gets into too much detail, but I think players might enjoy some more tension and interplay between subs and destroyers!

[Thormaxthor]

I'm looking for the Commander And Cheff rulz it was in 1vison and removed in the 2nd i'll like to see the rulz on it

Thank you
Matt