FaveDave vs Fifleche Public Grudge Match! [Archive]

MektonZero

04-20-2006, 11:24 PM

FaveDave started a thread where he proposed a German build he claimed was strong against all allied comers. Naturaly, in the manner of such things, mildly heated words were exchanged with another player, Fifleche, and to settle the argument I stepped in and proposed to moderate a public match between the two!

If you decide to comment I must ask that you please be civil. This is a game, we're supposed to be having fun. Please, don't go out of your way to issue a personal attack or take something you read as one. Now that we've got that cleared up, on to the battle!

FaveDave's lineup
6 x SS Panzergrenadier
1 x SS Hauptsturmfuhrer
2 x BMW Cycle Troops
2 x Elite Panzer IV
2 x 20mm AA Guns
1 x Arisaka Rifle to use up the rest of his points.

Fifleche must be certain that FaveDave doesn't have nearly enough anti-armor units :)
2 x Veteran M4 Sherman "Rhino"
2 x Sherman (105)

Now, Fifleche has a slight advantage in that he knew what FaveDave's build was in advance but FaveDave was confident that he could take all comers so here we go.

The action: I'm moderating this with a Vassal Module that I've constructed for my own personal use. I do not yet have permission to distribute the module from AH so for the moment I'm going to be the only one with it, please don't fill up my PM box with requests for it. Should I ever get permission to distribute I will make a public announcement.

The players will give me their orders, via this thread, and I'll keep an up to date screenshot of the battle here Screenshot (http://silenthunter.50webs.com) Remember that the URL for the picture will always be the same, it makes it easier for me to update it and for you spectators to bookmark it; but you may have to refresh the image in your browser to make sure you're not looking at a cached image. In Firefox pressing the reload button (two blue arrows pointing at each other) will refresh the page; if you're using a different browser check your help file. I apologize for the mediocre quality of the shot but it's a very big image (2300 x 1500 pixels) and my web host has a 300k file limit so I had to Jpeg compress it quite a bit but it's still usable. The source is a 4.3 meg .PNG file. :)

The situation: Random roll picked the Half and Half map, random roll has Fifleche coming on the top edge of Half and Half (which from now on will be regarded as left on the screenshot) and setting up first. The game will be the usual 7 turn fight for the objective located on BF8. I apologize for the few garbled hex numbers but it isn't in the module itself, it's an artifact of saving the map as a .png file. Just remember that there are only 8 hexes in each row, the next hex will be either the first or last hex in the row of the adjacent map.

Ok, Fifleche, over to you to setup. You should be able to see hex numbers on the screenshot. When facing becomes important just use compass directions, treat the top of the map as North. The hex facings become NE, E, SE, SW, W and NW. If you need to specify a particular map for an action, I've added map name labels that I will keep near the center but move around to keep them out of the action so they will be visible.

In the words of the immortal Mills Lane "Let's get it on!"

jeff1981

04-21-2006, 02:24 AM

this should be interesting way of playing :)

WinterWarCaptain

04-21-2006, 03:08 AM

Sounds like fun! Great idea. :)

Wolfpack

04-21-2006, 07:27 AM

Nice Idea!

Sorry for saying that, but the markers of the Elite Panzer IV both read Panzer IV Ausf D ;)

XAos

04-21-2006, 08:51 AM

The situation: Random roll picked the Half and Half map, random roll has Fifleche coming on the top edge of Half and Half (which from now on will be regarded as left on the screenshot) and setting up first.
I thought this was to be by "Tournament rules"...?
DCI floor rules use a random roll for the map.
But using a random roll for who deploys first & where would be the standard game rules. As I understand them the DCI tournament rules; require an inititive roll for that. The winner of the initiative (and FaveDave has a +3 here) would choose who deploys first.
I don't like being "picky" at the start, but I'd equally hate for this match to collapse because the game setup was not to the agreed rules...

MektonZero

04-21-2006, 09:00 AM

I thought this was to be by "Tournament rules"...?

Tournament rules were never mentioned. This game is way too informal to worry about DCI tournament conditions. This is mainly to speed play, if I have to contact both players about every single die roll and wait for a response this will take months or years instead of weeks.

MektonZero

04-21-2006, 09:09 AM

Nice Idea!

Sorry for saying that, but the markers of the Elite Panzer IV both read Panzer IV Ausf D ;)

The full name of the unit is "Elite Panzer IV Ausf D", so they are indeed Panzer IV Ausf D tanks. Where exactly does the problem lie?

It's not like there are regular Panzer IV Ausf D tanks in the game to confuse them with. :)

Elfy

04-21-2006, 09:46 AM

Nylore

04-21-2006, 10:42 AM

Excellent a virtual showdown!!!!

I think this is a great way to settle the issue of what build is "best", when players differ in their opinion.

Good Luck guys.

Brian

Uncle_Joe

04-21-2006, 10:58 AM

I think this is a great way to settle the issue of what build is "best", when players differ in their opinion.

Sort of, but not really. It shows one match-up, one time, on one map. And I think all of us know how fickle the dice can be some times.

I'm looking forward to following the game, but I wouldnt put too much stock in the result. Neither side will be 'right' or 'wrong' on the basis on one game IMO.

NorthernRommel

04-21-2006, 11:16 AM

I thought this was to be by "Tournament rules"...?
DCI floor rules use a random roll for the map.

Pfft......we dont need no stinking random maps gringo..... :cool:

It is the armies -- not the maps that matter. This should be fun to watch. Both armies are pretty good, but will save my own tactical observations.
May the best grog win.

Ballshot

04-21-2006, 11:22 AM

Very cool, can't wait to see this evolve.

Y2UAsk

04-21-2006, 11:37 AM

Anybody want to start laying odds and covering side bets?

Steve

Cruizin2000

04-21-2006, 12:01 PM

I heard that Vegas has the Arisaka rifleman favored at 7/1 odds.

C2000

killermuppet

04-21-2006, 12:39 PM

Don't know if stacking all that infantry in one hex is such a good idea. Two Sherman (105)s in short to medium range? Something tells me fine red misty spray will soon coat the ground instead of the infantry.

Colonel_Coo

04-21-2006, 01:19 PM

MektonZero

04-21-2006, 01:39 PM

Still haven't heard from fifleche yet, but he did tell me that he's online online every couple of days so this might start off a bit slow.

If there are any of you who can do at least one set of orders per 24 hours during the week and wish to try this, PM me. If enough of you do it, we can try to make it a team game on a larger map. I can easily fit 6 players on a 3 x 4 map layout with multiple objectives (and easily fit in 150 points per player).

Although the map isn't going to be very pretty compressed as much as it needs to be so it will fit on my host, it is still playable at that scale so don't hesitate to join in.

MektonZero

04-21-2006, 01:41 PM

It'd be particularly nice if there was a play-by-play of what's happening as well as a snapshot of the current situation =)

BTW, there seems to be a lot of stacking limit violations in the current snapshot =/

I've got the time, I'll be giving the play by play as well as the snapshots.

As for stacking, the players haven't set up yet. Just giving a preview of the map layout and the starting forces for everyone. The module doesn't enforce any of the game rules, that's entirely up to the players. It's just an electronic version of the maps and minis.

MektonZero

04-21-2006, 01:45 PM

The open field rush is not going to work very well. If German moves first they will be okay. How the Germans set on objeceive is unknown to me, but even if the two BMW's close assualt the 105's and manage to disrupt them, the Allied Rhino's are going to back up and support the 105's. With German infantry spreading out, you'll see two shots on the 105's. Probably 1 damage and 1 dead 105. The Germans will see a dead H'Fuher, 2 dead BMW's and a disrupted SS PG.

The game hasn't started yet guys, I don't even have starting placement locations for the forces yet. There isn't any open field rush against the 105s. :D

Although I do appreciate the enthusiasm shown by the spectators so far. :)

Lt_Douglas

04-21-2006, 02:46 PM

*Sets up a beer and soft pretzel stand on the sidelines*

An army travels on it's stomach, after all ;)

Stojakovic

04-21-2006, 02:52 PM

My money (1,000,000 stoj. dollars) is on Fifleche http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/5711/2gunsfiringv17ii.gif

Lotus

04-21-2006, 03:13 PM

Fif is the Man. :cool:

Predator666

04-21-2006, 03:19 PM

I'm goin with FaveDave because he went with germans, although i woulda gotten a panzerfaust and instead of 6 ss-pg only 5, that way there is a little more anti tank capabilities.

RaidingParty

04-21-2006, 04:24 PM

“Let your secret sympathies and your compassion be always with the underdog in the fight – this is magnanimity; but bet on the other one – this is business” - Mark Twain

Go Fifleche! :D

Elfy

04-21-2006, 05:10 PM

I've got the time, I'll be giving the play by play as well as the snapshots.

Groovy =D

Even if you didn't have the time though, the individual players could post the play-by-play as they take their turns so that everyone can follow along with what's happening, but if you have the time then that's certainly groovy too =)

As for stacking, the players haven't set up yet.

Oh, I see. I thought I must have missed the first couple of rounds or something =P

fifleche

04-21-2006, 05:27 PM

Ouch! 25 posts and I just got there! :) Okay, I'm looking on the map and thinking about my initial placement as we speak.

Thanks to all my supporters! :cool:

118th_MPCo_abn

04-21-2006, 05:39 PM

Going with Favedave's build.
Favedave ... do NOT let me down :D

Stojakovic

04-21-2006, 05:51 PM

Ouch! 25 posts and I just got there! :) Okay, I'm looking on the map and thinking about my initial placement as we speak.

Thanks to all my supporters! :cool:

Remember defence wins championships. If he can not hit you. He can not win. This does NOT be having some type of beef tank. use the map for DEFENCE.

GO FIFLECHE GO!

Praying to the dice gods does not hurt.

fifleche

04-21-2006, 05:59 PM

Okay, here goes my setup:

Charlie, hex E4, facing East, Rhino #1 (I say CE4E R/1, is that okay?)
DE6E R/2
CD4E 105/1
DC6E 105/2

Let's get this rollin'!

DocD

04-21-2006, 06:27 PM

Alright!! I'm always glad to see guys settling their disagreements with dice!

Let's get it on!

I always send my Shermans in with some infantry.....will be interesting to see them go at it without infantry support.

dracos42

04-21-2006, 06:42 PM

We need cheerleaders! :D

Mike

Lotus

04-21-2006, 06:48 PM

We need cheerleaders! :D

Mike

Like the Fematical snipers? :p

FaveDAve

04-21-2006, 07:04 PM

Oh crap. Now I have to not suck.

..

Lotus

04-21-2006, 07:11 PM

....Neither side will be 'right' or 'wrong' on the basis on one game IMO.

Technically, a Fifleche win would make FaveDave wrong. Because...
....Again, my Axis build is:

6 SSPG
1 SS Leader
1 Arisaka
2 20 MM flak guns
2 BMW motorcycles
2 Elite Panzer IV tanks

This is currently the strongest 100 point build in the game. Hands down. Bar none. I would bet money on it. There is no Allied army which can touch it....

...of the last sentence.

FaveDAve

04-21-2006, 07:28 PM

Technically, a Fifleche win would make FaveDave wrong. Because...

...of the last sentence.

Yes, Lotus. But remember the purpose of the build = for tournaments. Where you meet a variety of armies. It is quite adaptable to various types of buids it may encounter.

Fifleche has built an army specifically to defeat it, so it does not change my basic premise - which is that it's the best TOURNAMENT army. It may not be the best single army - that's not its purpose. Its purpose is to win tournaments.

The battle we're having will not prove that premise one way or the other. It's a single army build matchup, not an overall tournament. We'd both have to play many different tourney builds and see who wins the most battles to prove or disprove my theory.

..

Lotus

04-21-2006, 07:42 PM

Yes, Lotus. But remember the purpose of the build = for tournaments. Where you meet a variety of armies. It is quite adaptable to various types of buids it may encounter.

Fifleche has built an army specifically to defeat it, so it does not change my basic premise - which is that it's the best TOURNAMENT army. It may not be the best single army - that's not its purpose. Its purpose is to win tournaments.

The battle we're having will not prove that premise one way or the other. It's a single army build matchup, not an overall tournament. We'd both have to play many different tourney builds and see who wins the most battles to prove or disprove my theory.

..

I just dwelled on a technical standpoint. The spirit of Uncle Joe's words are not in dispute.

BTW, just so you understand, there was no condescension from me the other night. I posted the definitions because I believed both strategy and tactics were discussed on the thread. The first I think could be in contention due to scale, but the latter stands because units were discussed in terms of theoretical effectiveness against each other on the 'battlefield.' IMO you left a word out.

That aside, how goes the game?

fifleche

04-21-2006, 08:39 PM

Oh crap. Now I have to not suck.

..My toughts exactly! :eek:

This is stressfull, because litterally HUNDREDS of ppl will see every blunder we make, which I have no doubt we'll both provide them... :p

fifleche

04-21-2006, 08:43 PM

This is currently the strongest 100 point build in the game. Hands down. Bar none. I would bet money on it. There is no Allied army which can touch it....Arguments got a little heated over there. That's why I did the "cool off" call. Technically, FaveDave is right, in the sense that he called for a TOURNAMENT army. I build the "dual sherman variants" esp to defeat it, but I doubt it could fare well against a heavy tank army or the average russian army. But yes, he did say it was unbeatable... :D

Lotus

04-21-2006, 08:45 PM

Hey Fif, last I read you guys were still setting up. Anything more yet? Or can't you guys say?

JaegerMann

04-21-2006, 08:46 PM

The Germans can overcome any obstacle! I'm all in for FaveDAve. Let's GET IT ON! :cool:

fifleche

04-21-2006, 08:51 PM

Hey Fif, last I read you guys were still setting up. Anything more yet? Or can't you guys say?I put my setup in post #29. Now, either FaveDave can act upon this & post his, or he already did email it to MektonZero, or is considering it as we speak. Anyways, until MektonZero updates the map setup/tells us who won first initiative (like I have a chance with +0 VS +3 :rolleyes: ), we'll just have to wait...

MektonZero

04-21-2006, 10:40 PM

Ok, fifleche's setup is in the screenshot. Time for FaveDave to setup.

Photoner Hawkwind

04-21-2006, 10:45 PM

I've got to go with FaveDave. Not because I think his set up will have a chance against Fifleche, only because he lives so close to Hollywood! Gotta stick up for my neighbor. :D

Lynx7725

04-21-2006, 10:55 PM

Hmm, MektonZero, will you be willing to PM me the turn-by-turn screencaps? I can host it on my Photobucket account so that we can see the progression rather than just the current situation.

MektonZero

04-21-2006, 11:53 PM

Hmm, MektonZero, will you be willing to PM me the turn-by-turn screencaps? I can host it on my Photobucket account so that we can see the progression rather than just the current situation.

I've got the room to do it on my host and planned to keep a history, we just don't have any progression yet so I'm just sitting around with just the one screenshot until something actually happens. :)

Lynx7725

04-22-2006, 02:15 AM

Storage I don't suppose is a problem, but the bandwidth is; my account is underutilized at the moment and I don't mind using it to help out. But if you are sure...

BTW, is the map of correct length? I tried counting the deployment, but it seems that the Germans could deploy one hex closer to the objective than the Americans.

EDIT: Hmm looks like it's not the hex numbers being garbled, but because two hex numbers are being overlaid on each other.. Is a map overlap intentional in this module of yours?

Lotus

04-22-2006, 04:36 AM

Still a couple standing watch, I see. I'm off to a 1000-pt game in a bit at our state's southern border so I might miss alot of this, depending on how long this one takes.

I see what you mean about the overlap. Kind of confusing. A bug to work out, I guess. Otherwise this is pretty cool.

We need Carroll O'Connor's character from Kelly's Heroes saying: "Can't ya see I've got the game on?!" :D

XAos

04-22-2006, 04:40 AM

BTW, is the map of correct length? I tried counting the deployment, but it seems that the Germans could deploy one hex closer to the objective than the Americans.

Map looks correct at the moment (16 hexes long)
All the rulebook maps have the objective closer to one end than the other.

Thats probably to give an advantage to the player who sets up first. Setting up 2nd would otherwise be an unmitigated advantage.
In this instance Filfiche is getting the worst of both setting up first & not getting choice of map end.

Lynx7725

04-22-2006, 04:57 AM

Map looks correct at the moment (16 hexes long)
All the rulebook maps have the objective closer to one end than the other.
Oh I see, my mistake then.

I think this game would take a few weeks to resolve. Going to take the title for "Longest AAM 100 pt game". :D

Lotus

04-22-2006, 05:05 AM

....I think this game would take a few weeks to resolve. Going to take the title for "Longest AAM 100 pt game". :D

"Down to my last unit...held out for days..."

Colonel_Coo

04-22-2006, 09:57 AM

With Germany restricted to two tanks, the Americans opt in their opening set-up to try the flanker move. This is going to have the effect of Objective Concession to the German Soldiers. Without a Headshot to Count on or the speed boost of the WOL, Germany is going to start hating those Rhino's PDQ.

Fortunetly the Americans have chosen to close the gap and spread out.
Peek and Poke battle to ensue.

MektonZero

04-22-2006, 11:13 AM

Update: FaveDave has setup. Fifleche will move first.

Storage I don't suppose is a problem, but the bandwidth is; my account is underutilized at the moment and I don't mind using it to help out. But if you are sure...

My web hosting has unlimited bandwidth, and no ads either; which is great deal for a free account. The only drawback was the 300k file size limit but it's not crippling.

BTW, is the map of correct length? I tried counting the deployment, but it seems that the Germans could deploy one hex closer to the objective than the Americans.

It's correct, the objective is always on one of the whole hexes of the maps, so one side or another always deploys one hex closer to the objective than the other. Every one of the 6 standard maps in the rulebook is like that.

EDIT: Hmm looks like it's not the hex numbers being garbled, but because two hex numbers are being overlaid on each other.. Is a map overlap intentional in this module of yours?

This is an artifact of Vassal saving the map as a PNG file, when actually playing the module the overlap does not occur. I'll poke around a bit and see if there is simple way to fix it.

fifleche

04-22-2006, 11:51 AM

FaveDAve

04-22-2006, 01:10 PM

Okay, so I lost init (no wonder) and FaveDave lets me move first. Here are my actions:

MektonZero, could you remove one set of coordinates from the hexes that are twice numbered? That could help alot reduce confusion when things get hairy, later. Thanks.

Actually, there has been no init roll that I know of. Since you set up first, you move first.

Although if I win init, I'd certainly let you move first.

Some of the hex numbers are real blurry on my screen...

Zhukov

04-22-2006, 01:23 PM

FaveDAve

04-22-2006, 01:32 PM

Im for Filfliche! (Sorry on spelling!) mainly because from what I have seen with this FaveDave sees his army as unbeatable. I really dont like his attitude of nothing can touch it, it can handle everything. So I hope it gets beaten! I hope it gets beaten but I think FaveDave will still win.

Let me reiterate - I don't think the army is unbeatable. Not at all. I think it is the best TOURNAMENT army. Where it has to be flexible and meet a variety of builds over the course of the tournament. Since you can't change armies, it has to be flexible.

THe only way to truly test two builds is to play several games against several opponents and see which army beats OTHER armies as well as just the one build designed to beat it.

This grudge match is just that. It's not going to tell us which army is better in tournaments from one game.

You have to look at the 2 armies and decide - how many OTHER armies can beat it? That's how you buld a tournament army. Specialized armies cannot last against a bunch of different builds, and you end up with a rock-paper-scissors thing going on.

As for this game, it's going to come down to 3 crucial die rolls in one turn. The entire game will be determined by that. Kind of boring, but it's the same thing that happens with the KV1 builds versus this build. One crucial die roll...

We'll see very shortly since Fifleche is not pussyfooting around - he's coming right forward. I agree with his move - why delay it? Delaying contact would only delay the game in real time and serve no tactical purpose.

BTW, I started the whole thread because of my own inadequacy in trying to build a good Allied tourney army. If someone can show me a good Allied army - as Fiflech is - then I have accomplished the purpose of question!

Arontje

04-22-2006, 01:57 PM

Let me reiterate - I don't think the army is unbeatable. Not at all. I think it is the best TOURNAMENT army. Where it has to be flexible and meet a variety of builds over the course of the tournament. Since you can't change armies, it has to be flexible.

ehh. You said on another thread that NO allied army can compete against it. So you kinda said it cant be beaten.

But still. I too think you will win.

MektonZero

04-22-2006, 02:41 PM

Okay, so I lost init (no wonder) and FaveDave lets me move first. Here are my actions:

Movement phase #1

R/1: CE4E to BD8E (4 move used)
R/2: DE6E to CD1E / BD9E (same hex... twice numbered :confused: ) (4 + road bonus)
105/1: CD4E to BE9E (again twice numbered) (moved 4)
105/2: DC6E to AG1E (double #'d) (4 + road bonus)

MektonZero, could you remove one set of coordinates from the hexes that are twice numbered? That could help alot reduce confusion when things get hairy, later. Thanks.

I wish I could remove just one set of numbers but it would remove the numbers from that entire map. It appears to be a problem of the map export function in VASSAL, it doesn't appear that way when I'm looking at the module on my monitor. I have a solution though, each map now has different offsets for the grid so they won't overlap although some hexes now have two different numbers, just remember that only a half hex will be number 9 and there are no number 10 hexes on any map.

And for that last 105, I think you mean F1, G1 would have been 6 hexes away and the road bonus is only 1 hex.

Ok FaveDave, you're up! You probably don't need me to move any of your units so you can see the hex numbers, you're not near the border so you can just count over but if you want it I'll redo the screenshot.

fifleche

04-22-2006, 03:50 PM

MektonZero, it appears you missunderstood my move orders;

Those two are correct:
Rhino #1 goes from Charlie E4 hex, facing East, and goes at Baker D8, still facing East.
105 #1 goes from Charlie D4, facing East, and goes at Baker E9, still facing East.

Those two are wrong:
Rhino #2 goes from Dog E6 facing East, and goes at Charlie D1, facing still East. It passes through the following hexes: Dog E6 (start), Dog F6 (1), Dog G7 (2), Charlie F2 town (3), Charlie E2 town (4) & finishes at Charlie D1, facing East, by using the road bonus to movement for vehicles. In short: R/2: DE6E to CD1E (road bonus)

105 #2 goes from Dog C6 facing East, and goes at Able G1, still facing East. It passes through the following hexes: Dog C6 (start), Dog C7 (1), Dog D7 (road bonus), Dog E8 (2), Dog F8 (3) & finishes at Able G1, facing East. Please note that this is THE problem hex, because it can be numbered Able G1, Baker G1, Charlie G9 & Dog G9 and all of these would be technically correct. Anyways, in brief: DC6E to AG1E (road bonus).

If my method is too confusing, perhaps we could try another method, eh?
What are you using, FaveDave?

fifleche

04-22-2006, 04:20 PM

Actually, there has been no init roll that I know of. Since you set up first, you move first.

Although if I win init, I'd certainly let you move first.:confused: There was no initiative roll :confused:

MektonZero, I would like a bit more clarity upon your process. I don't mind a few "shortcuts" and/or "modifiactions" here and there to speed up play, but we should definitively know what's going on, if we're to compete, FaveDave & me!

Getting started: (advanced rules, pp4-5)

1- Build an Army: done!
2- Select a Battle Map Layout: done!
3- Flip a Coin: done!
4- First Player Deployment: If I was first player, as was apparently so, I should have had the choice of selecting the side I deployed on.
5- Second Player Deployment: done!
6- Start Playing!

Also, if you could give us the actual numbers rolled, I would appreciate it. Thanks!

MektonZero

04-22-2006, 04:35 PM

MektonZero, it appears you missunderstood my move orders;

If my method is too confusing, perhaps we could try another method, eh?
What are you using, FaveDave?

Sorry, my mistake, I'm still getting used to this too. Here is something that will help. Put a space between the map letter and the coordinate. C D1 is a little harder for me to misread than CD1, especially paging back and forth between my web browser and the module.

Ok, now FaveDave is good to go! :)

MektonZero

04-22-2006, 04:52 PM

:confused: There was no initiative roll :confused:

MektonZero, I would like a bit more clarity upon your process. I don't mind a few "shortcuts" and/or "modifiactions" here and there to speed up play, but we should definitively know what's going on, if we're to compete, FaveDave & me!

Getting started: (advanced rules, pp4-5)

1- Build an Army: done!
2- Select a Battle Map Layout: done!
3- Flip a Coin: done!
4- First Player Deployment: If I was first player, as was apparently so, I should have had the choice of selecting the side I deployed on.
5- Second Player Deployment: done!
6- Start Playing!

Also, if you could give us the actual numbers rolled, I would appreciate it. Thanks!

I rolled a die to select map at random, flipped a coin (actually rolled a die) and FaveDave won the selection of the side to setup first on. In order to help balance the fact that you're not using a tournament army chosen in advance I let FaveDave set up second. This isn't a major bonus though, it's not like he would have set up much differently if he didn't know where your tanks were. Anyhow, from here we are in the normal turn sequence per the rulebook.

I rolled initiative, with his bonus FaveDave beat you 13 to 5. We hadn't discussed initiative but after his setup FaveDave indicated that it would be best for him to move second so he is.

MektonZero

04-22-2006, 04:57 PM

Im for Filfleche! (Sorry on spelling!) mainly because from what I have seen with this FaveDave sees his army as unbeatable. I hope the unbeatable army gets beat. Yet I got a feeling FaveDave will win in the end.

Wow, what a way to hedge your bets. No matter who wins you can either claim that all along you wanted him to win, or felt he would win :D

fifleche

04-22-2006, 05:11 PM

It's called "weaseling". ;)

MektonZero

04-22-2006, 05:32 PM

It's called "weaseling". ;)

Since you didn't mention the new Screenshot I guess I got it right this time. :)

fifleche

04-22-2006, 05:34 PM

40roundsready

04-22-2006, 08:05 PM

We need some running commentary by one of those soft speaking golf announcers.

MektonZero

04-22-2006, 09:00 PM

Yeah. I've started to number the files so I can make a little "animation" to show how the match went. That way, I can either brag to my friends or use it as a learning tool! ;)

Are you gonna put some little "explosions" when fire is taking place? Do we see who fires on who, and to what effect? :D

I think I can manage something. Got FaveDave's moves up, time to announce your fire. List fire for all your units, use whatever plain language conditional orders you need.

Kommandant

04-22-2006, 09:22 PM

come on favedave i know you can do it lol
plus its 14 pieces against 4 amazing pieces
i think favedave is going to win this one, but who knows :D

Colonel_Coo

04-22-2006, 09:30 PM

First off:
Why didn't ONE Bike hit the First Rhino and a Second Bike hit the 105?
No attempt to move either Panzer into the Forest hex.
No spread of the SS-PG's.

WOW!

MektonZero

04-22-2006, 10:01 PM

First off:
Why didn't ONE Bike hit the First Rhino and a Second Bike hit the 105?
No attempt to move either Panzer into the Forest hex.
No spread of the SS-PG's.

WOW!

The 105s can't contest the objective and ignore close assaults like the Rhinos can. Looks like he's going to use the first two BMWs to close assault the first Rhino, and make sure he takes it out with short range Panzer IV fire if necessary. When it's dead the other tank or two will fire on the second Rhino.

If he had moved either of his tanks into the southern woods it would have been vulnerable to fire from the southern Sherman 105. Had his BMWs close assaulted the westernmost Rhino, they would have been under fire from the southern Sherman 105.

With the Rhinos dead it will be a matter of the 105s having to contest the objective at pointblank range for 4 turns before they can win. No matter what Fifleche does, at least one of FaveDave's Anti-tank units will survive undisrupted to reattack the remaining Rhino again next turn, assuming it survives; otherwise one of the 105s is going to feel the pain.

As for not spreading out his SSPGs, I feel it's a decent tactical call. If the 105 fires at them, they won't be firing at any of FaveDave's anti-armor units.
Fifleche has a choice, kill one of FaveDave's anti-armor units now or let one of them get off an extra shot at one of your tanks in exchange for two of the units that FaveDave is really going to want later to contest the objective. FaveDave hung them out there as bait, let's see if Fifleche takes it.

I'd have to say that FaveDave is an excellent position at the moment to kill two of Fifleche's tanks and cripple a third. I won't make any tactical comments until I get his attack orders though; this is his fight after all.

FaveDAve

04-23-2006, 04:41 AM

jeez...

It's really weird playing with all this running commentary.

Normally, there is no kibitzing in tourney games, because you don't want your opponent to have the benefit of other players' advice.

This is like the most public game ever!

If Fifleche is making a mistake in some respect, it would be nice if someone didn't point it out to him. But if I am making a mistake I think someone should send me a PM. Ooops! Did I just say that? :eek:

Some are right on in their analysis of my moves - others are not. As to whether my moves are the best - I dunno. But my reasoning is based on tactics that have won for me in the past.

Now fifleche has his assault phase, so he decides the course of battle. He has a couple of interesting choices...

MektonZero

04-23-2006, 04:53 AM

Some are right on in their analysis of my moves - others are not.

That's the fun part, with all this advice (half of which is bound to be wrong) you guys are better off trusting your own instincts.

XAos

04-23-2006, 05:00 AM

First off:
1) Why didn't ONE Bike hit the First Rhino and a Second Bike hit the 105?
2) No attempt to move either Panzer into the Forest hex.
3) No spread of the SS-PG's.

WOW!
I numbered those for answers.
1) Putting one of the motorbikes on the 105 would have allowed Filfiches 2nd 105 to shoot it. As is the 2nd 105 has no targets.
2) Risking a failed movement role is (usually) a really bad idea. And in this position even a success could be bad. Moving the Pz-IV's into any forest hex (except the objective itself) would put them at medium range instead of the short range they are currently.
3) The sherman-105's only have "ignore cover", they can't hit all the units in a hex. So spreading the SS-PG's at this stage is irrelevant (at best) and might have given the 2nd 105 a LoS (at worst).

FaveDave is offering an all-or-nothing exchange of fire on round:1.
I'm interested to see which way Filfiche responds to the "gambit". He could shoot with all 3 shermans which have targets,run with everything, or any permutation in between....

...you guys are better off trusting your own instincts.
To quote Spock, "That much is certain". :cool:

MektonZero

04-23-2006, 05:25 AM

FaveDave is offering an all-or-nothing exchange of fire on round:1.I'm interested to see which way Filfiche responds to the "gambit". He could shoot with all 3 shermans which have targets,run with everything, or any permutation in between....

For FaveDave's build it might be an interesting choice (given the reliance on contesting the objective area with SSPGs) to trade in one of the 20mm AA guns and upgrade the Hauptsturmfuhrer to an Oberleutnant. Normally, you need 7 infantry to make sure a Rhino can't just drive past the defending infantry to a clear hex. Angriff cuts down on the number of required defenders to force a close assault (down to just himself if he's actually on the objective), not to mention the Oberleutnant's own outstanding close and short range anti-vehicle values. An Oberleutnant Angriffing himself against a vehicle is a sight to behold. :D

oddfellow

04-23-2006, 05:43 AM

I don't care who wins... this is both fun and educational. Thanks MektonZero for setting this up, great idea. Kudos as well to the combatants for bravely allowing themselves to be observed 'under a microscope' in such a public forum. Way cool.

XAos

04-23-2006, 05:57 AM

Normally, you need 7 infantry to make sure a Rhino can't just drive past the defending infantry to a clear hex.
It's clear from the earliar debate between FaveDave & Filfiche that FaveDave thinks he can solve that tactical problem.
Personally I believe the Rhino tactic is unanswerable with less than 7 infantry. And might work even against 8 or 9. If this game proves there is a counter-tactic I will be really surprised.
Also, 1 Oberleutnant is unlikly to be enough. Commanders only have defense:4 so a standard sherman swarm (4-tanks) have enough time to spreadout and kill up to 4 commanders before round:7. And swaping out enough other units to put in 4 or 5 Oberleutnants/Imperial sargents leaves the force crippled to other tactics.

FaveDAve

04-23-2006, 07:20 AM

I numbered those for answers.
1) Putting one of the motorbikes on the 105 would have allowed Filfiches 2nd 105 to shoot it. As is the 2nd 105 has no targets.
2) Risking a failed movement role is (usually) a really bad idea. And in this position even a success could be bad. Moving the Pz-IV's into any forest hex (except the objective itself) would put them at medium range instead of the short range they are currently.
3) The sherman-105's only have "ignore cover", they can't hit all the units in a hex. So spreading the SS-PG's at this stage is irrelevant (at best) and might have given the 2nd 105 a LoS (at worst).

FaveDave is offering an all-or-nothing exchange of fire on round:1.
I'm interested to see which way Filfiche responds to the "gambit". He could shoot with all 3 shermans which have targets,run with everything, or any permutation in between....

Xaos is absolutely correct about the reasons for my move. And about his analysis of fifleche's options - he has quite a few.

There are also a few other considerations behind my move which no one has mentioned yet - which will become apparent later (depending on fifleche's actions in his assault phase).

As for the actual Sherman build itself, I think it is quite a good counter to my build. I don't think it's the optimal tourney build, but it can take me easily if certain rolls are made and other rolls are missed. The whole thing will likely boil down to one set of rolls at one point.

Although I think fifleche has made 2 minor tactical errors - let's see if he can correct them. (Although, again, if he doesn't correct it and certain rolls go his way, then it won't matter).

But he has also done another thing correctly that is crucial for his success with that build. I don't mean to be coy - I'll explain it all later. I have to wait and see if he follows up on it...it's possible he doesn't know he's even done this thing I'm thinking of...I never played him so I don't know.

I'm sounding too vague now...

MektonZero

04-23-2006, 07:28 AM

It's clear from the earliar debate between FaveDave & Filfiche that FaveDave thinks he can solve that tactical problem.
His solution is to use Elite Pz IVs to kill the Rhinos before it comes down to driving around the objective. :)

Personally I believe the Rhino tactic is unanswerable with less than 7 infantry. And might work even against 8 or 9.

Doing it with straight infantry might well be impossible because you need to go 7 turns and still have 7 infantry left; which means you're going to need at least 12 infantry in your build to be certain that you have enough left to be sure you have 7 of them on turn 8-9.

Also, 1 Oberleutnant is unlikly to be enough. Commanders only have defense:4 so a standard sherman swarm (4-tanks) have enough time to spreadout and kill up to 4 commanders before round:7.

But the standard sherman swarm still has to deal with the two Elite Panzer IVs which can easily turn a standard swarm into 2 useful shermans in no time flat. :)

Pasalades

04-23-2006, 07:35 AM

Colonel_Coo

04-23-2006, 08:20 AM

THanks for responses to my comments.

I just pulled the cards to review what was what. The 105 did not have something I thought it did: Blast! So, I retract my comment about the spread of BMW's or even the SS-PG's for the matter.

I still think the Pzr in D7 should have attempeted an entry into C7. But the 1 die might make the difference on extra death to the Rhino/105's. If both get knocked out. have two tanks against that much infantry is going to be a pain, even if 1 is a Rhino.

Joisey

04-23-2006, 08:26 AM

This is a great concept, and I'm watching with keen interest.

Good Luck to both players!

Joisey

04-23-2006, 08:34 AM

Just checked the current screen shot: I think Fifeche should have put his 105 in F9 to provide support to his other tanks, rather than have it hide behind the objective hex, letting FDave concentrate his fire against Fif's other 3 thanks. Splitting up risks defeat in detail.

The thread did not have the players' orders posted that got them to where the screen shot shows them now. I would have liked to have seen the orders. Also, is any of the firing orders/die rolling going to be posted? That too would be good to see.

Photoner Hawkwind

04-23-2006, 10:14 AM

What if we take FaveDave's idea and run a tournament on the boards this way? Sure it would take time, but then everyone could use their favorite tournament build.

Not to mention all the arguments that could ensue afterwards. :D

Okay, just blame it on the dice! :(

MektonZero

04-23-2006, 11:24 AM

The thread did not have the players' orders posted that got them to where the screen shot shows them now. I would have liked to have seen the orders. Also, is any of the firing orders/die rolling going to be posted? That too would be good to see.

Fifleche is posting his orders in the thread, FaveDave is communicating via email. I'll see what I can do about making the orders a bit more clear to the spectators.

WinterWarCaptain

04-23-2006, 11:46 AM

It looks very bad for the Allies and the battle has barely begun!

Uncle_Joe

04-23-2006, 11:51 AM

Very interesting so far. But wouldnt it be cool if the rules didnt allow for assinine things like the Rhino and controlling the objective?

MektonZero

04-23-2006, 11:54 AM

It looks very bad for the Allies and the battle has barely begun!

It's not as bad as it looks. :-)

Update: I added movement arrows to the units in the screenshots so you can follow the action a bit better.

Lotus

04-23-2006, 12:34 PM

Just checked the current screen shot: I think Fifeche should have put his 105 in F9 to provide support to his other tanks, rather than have it hide behind the objective hex, letting FDave concentrate his fire against Fif's other 3 thanks. Splitting up risks defeat in detail.

I see why he did it tho, and there's logic. Have to save a 105 for infantry later, else he might lose both off the bat.

Arontje

04-23-2006, 01:51 PM

Its a bit sad that people are saying blame it on the dice. Yes the odds sometimes are great and you still miss. So be it. I mean if you can just point ut that it should hit why bother using dice.

I hate it too if i only see one hit with 8 dice but still, I accept it. Everyone should and should not blame the game on dice.

Uncle_Joe

04-23-2006, 02:09 PM

I hate it too if i only see one hit with 8 dice but still, I accept it. Everyone should and should not blame the game on dice.

There is definately something to be said for that. After all, if its only going to come down to dice rolls, why go through the motions? Just each person roll a die and higher die roll wins...much easier and takes a lot less time! :D

That said, there are certainly games determined by the dice. I've played in A&AM games where I didnt kill a single piece all game (no joke...I scored a few hits, but my opponent made all his cover rolls). I've also played in games where my opponent rolled so badly that it didnt really matter what he did. But the majority of the games fall somewhere in between.

We all tend to remember the bad luck we've had, but tend to forget that it usually evens out by the end of the game. One of the joys of A&AM is that it usually plays quickly enough that if you have horrible luck and get hosed, you can get another game in and try again.

Lotus

04-23-2006, 02:42 PM

We all tend to remember the bad luck we've had, but tend to forget that it usually evens out by the end of the game. One of the joys of A&AM is that it usually plays quickly enough that if you have horrible luck and get hosed, you can get another game in and try again.

I agree that luck evens out in multiple games. Within a single game however, even if the dice rolls even out, opportunity doesn't. Who hasn't had a game where one side rolled terrible at the start only to see the dice smile once half of its forces went to smithereens? I think you had it down in your other post, the implication I understood to be that multiple games would depict a more accurate picture.

FaveDAve

04-23-2006, 02:50 PM

Well, the main thing to remember here, folks, is that:

1. If I win, it's because of my skill.
2. If he wins, it's because of his lucky dice rolls.

And let's not forget my ancient family motto: "Obnoxious in victory, surly in defeat!"

Also, if you look at the latest screenshot, you'll see that I have unleashed my secret weapon - the deadly blue arrows!

..

Lotus

04-23-2006, 02:59 PM

Bobsalt

04-23-2006, 03:07 PM

3. If it's a draw, it's because... ;)

...I was smart enough to be sure that one corner of the board was over the edge of the table, and when things start going bad, I can "accidentally" give that edge a good jolt and flip the whole thing over..."Gee, that's too bad - I guess we'll just have to call it a draw..."

MektonZero

04-23-2006, 05:07 PM

Also, if you look at the latest screenshot, you'll see that I have unleashed my secret weapon - the deadly blue arrows!

I see the arrows are a hit! :D

fifleche

04-23-2006, 07:15 PM

Wow! Alot of comments on here!

:confused: Strange how some ppl see me as "in a bad position", considering I have the first assault phase, and the only piece that could be close assaulted is a Rhino, that I can move anyways right away, no matter the results of defensive fire...

Anyways, I'm thinking of my fire orders now!

fifleche

04-23-2006, 07:32 PM

1- Sherman 105 on Baker E9 fires at Elite PanzerIV-D on Baker E8
2- Rhino on Charlie D1 fires at EPIVD on Baker D7
3- Rhino on Baker D8 moves to Charlie D1, Charlie E2 (town) & ends in Charlie E3, facing East, thus provoking no defensive fire from tanks, but CA from the 2 cycles.
4- Sherman 105 on Able G1 moves to Charlie F3, facing East.

fifleche

04-23-2006, 07:38 PM

This far into the match I think FaveDave has the edge, but a slight one. Been watching from the sidelines, but I'm really interested in the outcome of this match. I'd like to see a sherman swarm put to bed, my respect for fifleche aside.Yes, I agree with you. I was too spread out at setup, but this is relatively easy to correct with the spped 4 Shermans.

Oh, and I'd like to see a Sherman swarm be put down too! Nonwhitstanding the fact that I'm playing currently one! :D

MektonZero

04-23-2006, 08:22 PM

Yes, I agree with you. I was too spread out at setup, but this is relatively easy to correct with the spped 4 Shermans.

Oh, and I'd like to see a Sherman swarm be put down too! Nonwhitstanding the fact that I'm playing currently one! :D

Your assault phase is complete. A little worse than average, shot at 11 dice, 5 successes, your shot at 10 dice only scored 3 successes. Your fleeing Rhino took 6 successes on 6 dice from the close assault! Still only disrupted though. :)

I really didn't expect you to do a half and half, I was sure you would have bailed with your entire force and come back in a group, possibly from a bit farther out as well.

It's getting interesting now, FaveDave has some interesting tactics he can pull off with his Cycles in this position.

Photoner Hawkwind

04-23-2006, 08:22 PM

Photoner Hawkwind

04-23-2006, 08:26 PM

Mr_G

04-23-2006, 08:28 PM

In quoting the famous strategists, Yogi Berra, "It ain't over 'till it's over." :D

It aint over till the fat lady sings.. or in this case, till the last rhino blows up...:p

MektonZero

04-23-2006, 08:33 PM

In quoting the famous strategists, Yogi Berra, "It ain't over 'till it's over." :D

As long as he doesn't quote General Desaix "There is yet time to win another battle!" He won the battle AND died trying! :cool:

MektonZero

04-23-2006, 08:37 PM

It aint over till the fat lady sings.. or in this case, till the last rhino blows up...:p

When the last Rhino blows up? More like, "when the other rhino blows up". It's probably going to take divine intervention to keep that under fire Rhino alive through this assault phase. :)

fifleche

04-23-2006, 08:51 PM

Your assault phase is complete. A little worse than average, shot at 11 dice, 5 successes, your shot at 10 dice only scored 3 successes. Your fleeing Rhino took 6 successes on 6 dice from the close assault! Still only disrupted though. :)"A little worse" :confused:
11 dices: 5 successes 73%, 6 successes (a insta-kill) 50%. Okay, a little worse here.
10 dices: 4 successes 83%. I got 3 successes. That is a craptastic shot. And with his tank merely disrupted, a major turn in the battle, mind you.
6 dices: 6 successes: 2%. Yeah, "a little worse" :rolleyes:

Anyways, I'll see if FaveDave get "a little worse" rolls too.

spadsept@mac.com

04-23-2006, 09:05 PM

Hi,

I did Fifeche build today in a DCI tournament to prove it's worth, won it with 3 victories with some great moments (2 GE armies, 1 Brit army (Lt.Douglas). I won also a 4th bonus games against Jael's 2 KV1 and 1 croc. This army was hard to crack but i managed to survive , a very close call.

In the present game, It's easy to wipe out Fave Dave, i'm surprised that the 4 sherman's weren't together at the beginning... 2 Pz should be dead already, with 1 or 2 motorcycle.

Still, i favor Fifleche for victory.

MektonZero

04-23-2006, 09:10 PM

"A little worse" :confused:
11 dices: 5 successes 73%, 6 successes (a insta-kill) 50%. Okay, a little worse here.
10 dices: 4 successes 83%. I got 3 successes. That is a craptastic shot. And with his tank merely disrupted, a major turn in the battle, mind you.
6 dices: 6 successes: 2%. Yeah, "a little worse" :rolleyes:

The 6 dice 6 success is completely wasted since he can't fire on you there and the disruption is going to be gone at the end of the turn. That one doesn't even count against you. :p

As for the others, you had about a 1 in 5.7 shot (17.6%) of getting a total of 3 or less hits this turn. It's not like you won the crap lottery or anything. You had a 1 in 120 chance of scoring just a single hit; that would have been craptastic. :D

XAos

04-24-2006, 02:14 AM

I really didn't expect you to do a half and half, I was sure you would have bailed with your entire force and come back in a group,
That was my final guess too - move all 4 shermans east along the open half of the map & then move north behind FaveDave forces. The allies have enough advantage in this matchup that they don't need first turn gambles.
Dice marginally against the allies so far.

But the standard sherman swarm still has to deal with the two Elite Panzer IVs which can easily turn a standard swarm into 2 useful shermans in no time flat. :)
Outgunned 2:1 two Pz-IVD's can only be "expected" to kill 1 sherman. They might kill 2 but it's not high odds.
And even 2 shermans should be able to kill one defence:4 commander over half a dozen game turns. There is no where a commander can hide from 2 shermans. Except by staying a long way from the objective hex and a Wehrmacht Oberleutnant is only usefull if it's within a couple of hexes of the objective.

WinterWarCaptain

04-24-2006, 02:30 AM

Wow -- what a turn! I was sure the Rhino and (maybe) a Sherman were dead meat, but Axis must have had bad dice? Very interesting... :)

XAos

04-24-2006, 02:38 AM

Wow -- what a turn! I was sure the Rhino and (maybe) a Sherman were dead meat, but Axis must have had bad dice? Very interesting... :)
Unless I have missed something, the Axis assault phase:1 hasn't been posted yet. They havn't had any dice yet.
(except defensive fire by the bikes)

Joisey

04-24-2006, 07:42 AM

Colonel_Coo

04-24-2006, 08:11 AM

FaveDave better hope he gets good dice with the Pzr IV D's this assault phase, cause it looks like both his tanks will be dead by the end of next turn.

Fifeche should get his tanks into the city hexes next turn and give himself some cover.
The Panzer IV's will toast the remaining Rhino. 9 dice at 66% x 2. 6 success times 2.
THe BMW's will close in with the front 105.
The SS will swarm forward.
The 20mm will slide to the front.

End of turn 1:
Allies: Dead Rhino, disrupted Rhino
Axis: Damaged/disrupted Elite, Disrutped Elite.

MektonZero

04-24-2006, 10:08 AM

Outgunned 2:1 two Pz-IVD's can only be "expected" to kill 1 sherman. They might kill 2 but it's not high odds.
And even 2 shermans should be able to kill one defence:4 commander over half a dozen game turns. There is no where a commander can hide from 2 shermans. Except by staying a long way from the objective hex and a Wehrmacht Oberleutnant is only usefull if it's within a couple of hexes of the objective.

I didn't say kill 2, I said make them not useful. :) A damaged regular sherman has about a 1 in 3 chance of scoring a hit on a defense 4 unit and cover for the commander should always be an issue.

As for hiding from the remaining two, that's not always an issue either; all you need to do is position yourself where the enemy would have to get within two hexes of you to fire, allowing the commander to Angriff an SSPG at anyone who tries and still afford a cover roll for the commander. In just about any game there comes a point where you have to play the odds a bit; just like poker, you put your money on the best play, it might not work every time but as long as it works more often than it doesn't you're in the black. Besides, if there was one best strategy that worked more than 50% of the time against everything this game would be pretty useless.

I never claimed it was the ideal solution, but it does give you more options than the base build with 6 SSPGs who can't completely cover the objective by themselves. The only thing you lose over the Hauptsturmfuhrer is +3 instead of +2 to initiative, and I feel quite strongly that the gains in tank killing power more than make up for it considering that a sherman rush can't really afford a commander to contest the initiative anyway.

MektonZero

04-24-2006, 10:30 AM

The Panzer IV's will toast the remaining Rhino. 9 dice at 66% x 2. 6 success times 2.
THe BMW's will close in with the front 105.
The SS will swarm forward.
The 20mm will slide to the front.

End of turn 1:
Allies: Dead Rhino, disrupted Rhino
Axis: Damaged/disrupted Elite, Disrutped Elite.

Then the allies move into the town and engage the temporarily Defense 2 Pz IVs next turn. They are dead meat, they just don't haven't stopped moving yet. :)

I'd consider firing one Pz IV at the Rhino, if at least damaged fire the second at the 105. You want to pin it as well as reduce it's fire next turn. Then I'd toss the dice and move one BMW to each tank on the other side of the town.

Then Fifleche has to consider that moving out of their hexes into the town to try to engage the Pz IVs might result in distrupted units. If the Rhino gets disrupted, it can still move into town and fire normally but will be more vulnerable when the PziV fire on it. If all goes as planned, Fifleche will have one damaged and one disrupted Rhino, both being fired on by 9 dice with no modifiers. It's not great odds, but a 1 in 4 chance of one dead Rhino and one Damaged Rhino isn't too terrible. Unfortunately the return fire is likely to kill both Panzer IVs no matter what happens so you might as well go for the outside chance. And no matter what happens during the movement, FaveDave still has the option of using his cycles during his movement phase to either chase off a Rhino or try to kill a 105.

FaveDave still has plenty of fight left in him.

MektonZero

04-24-2006, 10:36 AM

Unless I have missed something, the Axis assault phase:1 hasn't been posted yet. They havn't had any dice yet.
(except defensive fire by the bikes)

Correct, the status line on my page shows that I'm still waiting for FaveDave's assault phase orders.

Colonel_Coo

04-24-2006, 12:13 PM

Then the allies move into the town and engage the temporarily Defense 2 Pz IVs next turn. They are dead meat, they just don't haven't stopped moving yet. :)

I'd consider firing one Pz IV at the Rhino, if at least damaged fire the second at the 105. You want to pin it as well as reduce it's fire next turn. Then I'd toss the dice and move one BMW to each tank on the other side of the town.

Then Fifleche has to consider that moving out of their hexes into the town to try to engage the Pz IVs might result in distrupted units. If the Rhino gets disrupted, it can still move into town and fire normally but will be more vulnerable when the PziV fire on it. If all goes as planned, Fifleche will have one damaged and one disrupted Rhino, both being fired on by 9 dice with no modifiers. It's not great odds, but a 1 in 4 chance of one dead Rhino and one Damaged Rhino isn't too terrible. Unfortunately the return fire is likely to kill both Panzer IVs no matter what happens so you might as well go for the outside chance. And no matter what happens during the movement, FaveDave still has the option of using his cycles during his movement phase to either chase off a Rhino or try to kill a 105.

FaveDave still has plenty of fight left in him.

Except the Rhino will be left alone on shooting round #2. The 105's are the real threat to the end game. With the H'Furher, the ONE remaining Rhino will lose on points.

The US should have retreated all unit and settled for 0 combat shots this turn. They are at the disadvantage now.

And you'll be surpised how many time a 2 hit unit survives when being shot at by a disrupted unit.

MektonZero

04-24-2006, 02:03 PM

So, anyone else want to play in a game like this? Maybe even a team game?

I've got one signup so far, he needs an opponent at least. :)

PatrickWR

04-24-2006, 02:16 PM

I really want to commend both Fifleche and FaveDave for going through with this.

This is probably going to be the most-scrutinized AAM game on the planet, so I thank both gentlemen in advance for being gracious as we, y'know, dissect their strategy in real-time.

Elfy

04-24-2006, 02:42 PM

So, anyone else want to play in a game like this?

I'd like to give it a go. I'm not yet very experienced/skillful, but it'd be a good learning experience for me =)

Domhnall101

04-24-2006, 03:05 PM

So, anyone else want to play in a game like this? Maybe even a team game?

I've got one signup so far, he needs an opponent at least. :)

i haven't been publicly humiliated in few years so it is about time. Count me in.......

Zhukov

04-24-2006, 03:29 PM

Let me reiterate - I don't think the army is unbeatable. Not at all. I think it is the best TOURNAMENT army. Where it has to be flexible and meet a variety of builds over the course of the tournament. Since you can't change armies, it has to be flexible.

THe only way to truly test two builds is to play several games against several opponents and see which army beats OTHER armies as well as just the one build designed to beat it.

This grudge match is just that. It's not going to tell us which army is better in tournaments from one game.

You have to look at the 2 armies and decide - how many OTHER armies can beat it? That's how you buld a tournament army. Specialized armies cannot last against a bunch of different builds, and you end up with a rock-paper-scissors thing going on.

As for this game, it's going to come down to 3 crucial die rolls in one turn. The entire game will be determined by that. Kind of boring, but it's the same thing that happens with the KV1 builds versus this build. One crucial die roll...

We'll see very shortly since Fifleche is not pussyfooting around - he's coming right forward. I agree with his move - why delay it? Delaying contact would only delay the game in real time and serve no tactical purpose.

BTW, I started the whole thread because of my own inadequacy in trying to build a good Allied tourney army. If someone can show me a good Allied army - as Fiflech is - then I have accomplished the purpose of question!
Yes I know thats your goal. Yet still from seeing its the best tournament army I really dont like that idea and hope it gets beaten. I still believe in my original statement just replacing hte words with tournament army and i hope it gets beaten. Good luck both of you and now to cacth up on these 5 pages to read.

Zhukov

04-24-2006, 03:31 PM

Wow, what a way to hedge your bets. No matter who wins you can either claim that all along you wanted him to win, or felt he would win :D
No, I want Fifleche to win, but I dont see it happening to easily. I never said I could claim whoever wins or not, I want Fifleche to win, but I dont think he will. You say all along you wanted him to win, no where in my statements does it say I want FaveDave to win, I think he will win but i dont want him to.

Zhukov

04-24-2006, 03:36 PM

I think ive read it all, who won?

PatrickWR

04-24-2006, 06:56 PM

They're just a couple turns into their game right now...

Kommandant

04-24-2006, 07:02 PM

They're just a couple turns into their game right now...

what turn is it?

Ballshot

04-24-2006, 07:08 PM

what turn is it?

Click on the screenshot link in post #1.

Game Status: Turn 1: Waiting for FaveDave's Assault Phase Orders

Kommandant

04-24-2006, 07:10 PM

Click on the screenshot link in post #1.

Game Status: Turn 1: Waiting for FaveDave's Assault Phase Orders

thanks :D

Stojakovic

04-24-2006, 07:12 PM

This is like the superbowl but slower :D This is just awesome. Good luck to the both of ya!

Kommandant

04-24-2006, 07:22 PM

this is really fun,
especially seeing two of the top
people on the boards duke it out :D

come on FaveDave, you can do it :rolleyes:

wpchen

04-24-2006, 07:34 PM

MektonZero

04-24-2006, 07:55 PM

Wow I can just feel the pressure mounting. Mekton Zero, I'd just like to point out that the disrupted counter on the Rhino is yellow and the one on the Pzkpfw IV D is black- this caused confusion the first time I saw it because in the *one* game I played, when something was given a facedown damaged it was assumed it would also get a face down disrupt since there is no way for a unit to get facedown damage and no facedown disrupt. Good job to both players!

The Rhino is actually disrupted, it was hit in defensive fire, thus recieving a face up disruption counter (yellow). The Pz IVs aren't disrupted or damaged yet, they just have taken hits (black counters) during the assault phase.

I'd like to try playing a game like this, as I can't find many opponents. However, I probably won't be able to find much time and suspect that others will be keen to have this move faster. If this idea does come through and enough people sign up, I'd like to watch a few games before playing one myself. Besides the fact that I'm a total noob :D

If you can spit out one set of orders per day that would be fast enough. Faster, in fact, than this game is moving right now. Due to my work I can get called away from home for 12-20 hours so I can't really process more than one turn per day on a reliable basis anyway. I do have net access during work though, that's why sometimes it seems that I'm posting here nearly constantly or replying very quickly to messages. :)

wpchen

04-24-2006, 08:11 PM

1 a day won't be a problem, but I'm concerned about team matches. For others wanting to do this, do you guys have any idea how many times a day you will be posting your orders?

MektonZero

04-24-2006, 09:35 PM

1 a day won't be a problem, but I'm concerned about team matches. For others wanting to do this, do you guys have any idea how many times a day you will be posting your orders?

Don't worry about them, even if they can post 50 times a day I can't get to my computer reliably enough to run the turns much more than once per day anyway. They can't go any faster than I'm going. :p

Don't worry about your lack of experience either. If you end up in a team game, you will have team mates; you can either help each other out or get eaten alive by a team that does help each other. :D

If you don't end up in a team game don't sweat it. Sure, your lack of experience could cost you the game, but so what; it's just a friendly game and you won't learn if you never play. It's not like we're going to track you down and put a billboard over your house detailing your defeat. :)

Sean-Khan

04-25-2006, 02:11 AM

This is really fascinating (even if the phase is slow)!

I believe FaveaDave's placement of MC's was a mistake, but I probably wouldn't have noticed the situation either. Never played w. or against Rhinos.

FaveDAve

04-25-2006, 04:28 AM

Sean-Khan

04-25-2006, 04:50 AM

motorcycles :)

Edit: Did some more thinking... making 26-point unit to not to attack with 10 point worth of units isn't bad at all. :)

I had trouble interpreting hit markings, as a sherman had yellow disrupted counter I thought that shermans had shot well and both Dave's tanks were destroyed... But so, they are only disrupted & damaged?

One more thing - when looking at earlier talk I believe 105's have blast? Triton-tek's stats don't have that, and that's the place where I've checked the stats I don't know :confused:

Still hard to say what will happen, but I vote for Germany :)

XAos

04-25-2006, 06:07 AM

motorcycles :)

Edit: Did some more thinking... making 26-point unit to not to attack with 10 point worth of units isn't bad at all. :)

Which suggests that swapping 4 of the SS-PG's for MC's would noticably strengthen the force. The bikes would have been seriously effective without the FAQ preventing them using a full move & "Angriff".

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 06:19 AM

Which suggests that swapping 4 of the SS-PG's for MC's would noticably strengthen the force. The bikes would have been seriously effective without the FAQ preventing them using a full move & "Angriff".

The trouble is that sooner or later the Rhinos will stop and fight. Then the motorcycles aren't going to last long. Not to mention what happens if the enemy didn't take all tanks but a mixed build, motorcycles are just baloons on wheels if the enemy has brought along a couple or three machineguns.

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 06:32 AM

Ok, got an update. FaveDave surrenders; he is unwilling to play under the rule I stated in the original thread and made crystal clear via email before this game even started that all orders for a move or assault phase have to be given at one time.

Anyone willing to take over his spot?

The first person who submits a complete set of orders for his units to me via Email (MektonZero@silenthunter.50webs.com) or in this thread gets the job. Using whatever plain conditional language you want, such as "Fire Pz IV at D7 at the Rhino in E8, if it is damaged or destroyed, fire the other Pz at the Sherman 105 in C9". It would probably be best to use the standard hex notation developed earlier of map letter, space, then the hex number) D B7 would be hex B7 on Map Dog.

Joisey

04-25-2006, 06:36 AM

FaveDave QUIT???? How....totally....lame! Booooooo!

Joisey

04-25-2006, 06:39 AM

Aries

04-25-2006, 06:48 AM

FaveDAve

04-25-2006, 06:52 AM

Ok, got an update. FaveDave surrenders;

I DID NOT SURRENDER. You refused to process my orders that I sent TWO DAYS AGO. If you had, we could've been several turns along by now. I don't know why, since you do not communicate in a human way - you simply keep sending my ruder and ruder emails - refusing to talk to me or answer my questions.

It's a pity, that after such an auspicious start, you turned out to be such a mean-spirited man.

For those contemplating taking up the game, I feel it my duty to warn you about his behavior.

This has been a very odd experience. Someone wants me to play in their online game then treats me this way...

Basically, I feel like someone offered me a chair to sit down in then pulled it out at the last second. A childish prank. And inhospitable, to say the least.

Weird.

.....

FaveDAve

04-25-2006, 06:55 AM

Although, I do concede that not being able to know the results of your firing from one unit before you fire the next one is a significant disadvantage and really changes the game. Not that this excuses FaveDave's quiting when he knew how the game would be played in advance.

Again, I did not quit....well, unless you consider the fact that I didn't submit to his bizzare and unreasonable demands...

...well, it's a long story.

Basically the system or the person running it is broken.

You can play with him yourself and decide. I was getting kind of creeped out by him and his increasingly weird emails, frankly.

Joisey

04-25-2006, 07:05 AM

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 07:07 AM

Mekton, can anything be done about this issue before the next game?

Not unless you want to take up to a month to resolve every single turn. Due to work I can make a roll every 12 hours (on average, sometimes longer). If I have to make up to 30 rolls in one set of assault phases it's going to take far too long. Not to mention the time and potential confusion. At a minimum it will take me several minutes to open VASSAL, load the module, find the units you're talking about, make the roll, assess the damage, place the markers, put a fired marker on the unit, save the game, create an email with that one result and send it, wait for you to read it, send me your second attack and then wait for me to get to my email. That's without any confusion, what if there is a disagreement about a unit having already been fired? Am I supposed to spend another 5 minutes per roll creating new screenshots? Do I really want to do this up to 210 times per game? No, I already have a job. :D

Does it change the game some, yes. Does it change it equally for both players, yes. Can someone with half an ounce of tactical sense use some conditional orders to mitigate much of the drawback, yes. Is it more realistic, actually yes. :)

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 07:11 AM

My proposed moves were:

Pzr IV D in E8 fires at the 105 in E9

Pzr IV D in D7 fires at the Rhino in D9

BMW R75 in D8 moves to D9

2nd BMW R75 in D8 moves to E9

2xSSPG in D6 moves to E7

2xSSPG in C7 moves to D6

Hauptman in B6 moves to C6

2x Flak 38 in C4 relocate to E3

Sorry Joisey, looks like Aries beat you by moments.

Anyone want to start their own game with Joisey? It doesn't even have to be a standard game. Whatever you guys can agree too, WotC scenario, 500 point game on a 3x3 map, ect. go for it.

Due to jpeg compression issues of the game maps, I'd try to keep it to 3x3 on the maps though. Any larger and it's not going to be pretty. :)

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 07:19 AM

E8 PzIV fires on E9 Sherman 105
D7 PzIV fires on D9 Rhino
BMW's move to E9 (Sherman 105)
D6 SS PzGrds moves to E7
C7 SS PzGrds moves to D6
C5 SS PzGrds move to D5
B6 Haupt/Arisaka move to C7
20mm's move to C6

Alright, you're in the hotseat now. Prepare to have your every move dissected by the entire group. :)

You won initiative at the start of turn 2, 10 to 9. Do you want Fifleche to move first?

shadowhooch

04-25-2006, 07:21 AM

Not unless you want to take up to a month to resolve every single turn. Due to work I can make a roll every 12 hours (on average, sometimes longer). If I have to make up to 30 rolls in one set of assault phases it's going to take far too long. Not to mention the time and potential confusion. At a minimum it will take me several minutes to open VASSAL, load the module, find the units you're talking about, make the roll, assess the damage, place the markers, put a fired marker on the unit, save the game, create an email with that one result and send it, wait for you to read it, send me your second attack and then wait for me to get to my email. That's without any confusion, what if there is a disagreement about a unit having already been fired? Am I supposed to spend another 5 minutes per roll creating new screenshots? Do I really want to do this up to 210 times per game? No, I already have a job. :D

Does it change the game some, yes. Does it change it equally for both players, yes. Can someone with half an ounce of tactical sense use some conditional orders to mitigate much of the drawback, yes. Is it more realistic, actually yes. :)

Good points. I think it should be appreciated that you are actually doing this instead of people picking apart every little detail that isn't exactly the same as two people sitting down together.

Yeah, it's NOT going to be the same. But this is the best we got right now so people should just be cool and have fun with it. It's not like a loss is going on your permanent record...geez it's a GAME!!!!!

Metkon, thanks for your hard work on putting it together. Keep it up. This is great education/fun watching people battle and seeing their styles and strategies. Best thread yet with potential to be better if the game is finished.

fifleche

04-25-2006, 07:33 AM

Does it change the game some, yes. Does it change it equally for both players, yes. Can someone with half an ounce of tactical sense use some conditional orders to mitigate much of the drawback, yes. Is it more realistic, actually yes.Yes, it changes quite a lot, actually. Ppl have been commenting that it was a bad move to move my second Rhino; without knowing in advance the effects of my attacks, I simply considered the chances for a favorable tradeup, and since these were over 90%, I considered risking a third tank wasn't worth it.

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 07:34 AM

Metkon, thanks for your hard work on putting it together. Keep it up.

You're welcome.

This is great education/fun watching people battle and seeing their styles and strategies. Best thread yet with potential to be better if the game is finished.

Hey, we're already the 3rd most viewed thread ever and we have at least 6 more turns to go. :)

Update: Turn 1 is now complete, . Waiting for Aries to say if he wants to move first or second in turn 2.

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 07:42 AM

FaveDAve

04-25-2006, 07:46 AM

Yes, it changes quite a lot, actually. Ppl have been commenting that it was a bad move to move my second Rhino; without knowing in advance the effects of my attacks, I simply considered the chances for a favorable tradeup, and since these were over 90%, I considered risking a third tank wasn't worth it.

Actually, you made three tactical mistakes that I counted thus far:

1. Not grouping your forces all together so you can fire all 4 at once from the very start. WIth this map, there is no point in trying to flank the Axis. With only 4 units, you can ill afford to risk them piecemeal.

2. You moved your tanks in front of the city. You could have left them IN the city if you wanted to be in firing positon, and retain a 2/3 chance at cover. You gain nothing by moving them forward.

3. Moving the Rhino back. Either move them all back or fire them all. You found out why. (But there shouldn't have been only 3 there in the first place).

But considering the moves the person who replaced me just did, you're going to be fine. He has already made 3 mistakes in only one turn!

You should win if this keeps up.

Have fun...I hope mekton doesn't weird out on you guys like he did on me. (cue Twilight Zone music)

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 07:48 AM

Again, I did not quit....well, unless you consider the fact that I didn't submit to his bizzare and unreasonable demands...

From the original thread
"Only one modification from normal play though, in order to keep the assault phases from taking a week each, you'll have to submit fire orders for all your forces at once. And in as much or as little detail as you wish and with whatever plain english conditional orders you want"

Oh, the inhumanity of my bizzare and unreasonable demands. :p

Basically the system or the person running it is broken.

That's so cute. :cool:

Aries

04-25-2006, 07:51 AM

I will move first.

BMW's to F3 Sherman 105 (undamaged)
E7 PzGrd to E8
E7 PzGrd to F7
D6 PzGrds to E7
D5 PzGrds to E6

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 07:57 AM

I will move first.

BMW's to F3 Sherman 105 (undamaged)
E7 PzGrd to E8
E7 PzGrd to F7
D6 PzGrds to E7
D5 PzGrds to E6

BANZAI! :)

I think that Arisaka rifle is a bad influence on the rest of your Germans. :)

Aries

04-25-2006, 07:58 AM

Yeah, well I ususally like playing Japanese when I can.... :D

I do have a plan, it just may be bad.... :cool:

fifleche

04-25-2006, 08:03 AM

But you could have used a conditional order to give yourself some flexibility. You could have stated that if one of the Panzers was only disrupted that you would stay and fire at it. But your tank would have been at extreme risk, first the two close assaults and then the guns of both Panzers. As for myself, I think you did the right thing by moving out of LoS.Hey, I'm learning too, here! :o

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 08:07 AM

I DID NOT SURRENDER. You refused to process my orders that I sent TWO DAYS AGO.

This isn't a debate or a discussion. You did not submit a full set of orders, you refused to submit a full set of orders, you quit rather than submit a full set of orders.

If you had, we could've been several turns along by now. I don't know why, since you do not communicate in a human way - you simply keep sending my ruder and ruder emails - refusing to talk to me or answer my questions.

I sent two emails, in the first I restated the conditions of this contest, that your assault phase orders be submitted in one full set. In the second I acknowledged your offer to withdraw from the game because you would not comply with the stated rules. I have never been less than courteous to you. Anything else is a fantasy on your part, nothing more.

Now stop trying to disrupt the game and move along to something else.
Thanks.

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 08:08 AM

Hey, I'm learning too, here! :o

No problem, it's a learning experience for all of us.

Speaking of which, Aries really jumped on the turn. It's now your movement phase.

Aries

04-25-2006, 08:19 AM

When we get a chance to play at home (very rarely now but hopefully during the summer we will get more chances) we play 2 minutes per phase. Leads to some interesting tactical scenarios.

fifleche

04-25-2006, 08:33 AM

Actually, you made three tactical mistakes that I counted thus far:

1. Not grouping your forces all together so you can fire all 4 at once from the very start. WIth this map, there is no point in trying to flank the Axis. With only 4 units, you can ill afford to risk them piecemeal.

2. You moved your tanks in front of the city. You could have left them IN the city if you wanted to be in firing positon, and retain a 2/3 chance at cover. You gain nothing by moving them forward.

3. Moving the Rhino back. Either move them all back or fire them all. You found out why. (But there shouldn't have been only 3 there in the first place).You know, "mistakes" are a question of opinion; granted, some opinions are "better" (or, more properly, better educated), but since you chose to drop the ball, we'll never know. It's always easier to comment when off. And I'm MORE afraid of Aries than I was from you. Please do not see this as an insult, but rather see it my way: in all my time on the AH boards, I've never seen someone so adamant about the strength of his build. This can mean (roughly) two things: one, you're just plain stubborn, or two, you're a tactical/strategic/overall genius. Since less than 1 in 100,000 ppl can even be remotely considered a genius, I went with the odds! :D

As for my "mistakes" rebutals:

1) I went with the odds: at range 1, a 105 had 86% to actually damage or more an EPIVD. Add in the fact that at range 2-4, a single Rhino had 50% of an instant kill on an EPIVD, the 14% failure of the 105 is actually halved, because if the Rhino manages to insta-kill his target, I can still do a favorable tradeoff. So I had, from my POV, a 93% chances of success. I'd bet money on those odds. ALOT of money. Glad I didn't ;) Again, my goal was to tradeoff two of my tanks for two of his, and end up with a functionning pair of one 105 & one Rhino. No need to risk the second Rhino at point blank range from an EPIVD & two cycles...

2) I didn't want to enable you to gain easy cover rolls for your two cycles; you gessed it, I am more worried about these than about your tanks. Yes, the EPIVD's are formidable on the offensive, for the points, but they are predictable. Speed 3 can only accomplish so much, & with 3 defense, these will never risk a defensive-fire attack. Such is not the case with cycles. 5 speed with "high gear 2" all in a compact package that does not draw defensive fire nor needs to make terrain rolls, and I end up without the ability to second-guess these. Also, the "ballsy" move was actually to "box in" the two EPIVD's, a goal nicely accomplished, I might add.

3) Well, after reading the "box in" strategy, the "favorable tradeoff" odds and my phobia of cycles, you should understand why I did this now.

Oh, and FaveDave, stop being so condescending. It aggravates alot of ppl, who sent me "beat the crap out of him!" messages. It doesn't bother me much, personally, but "mistakes" & "the way he is playing" are just a matter of personal strategy, IMHO. Remember, your "unbeatable tournament army" wasn't even USED in regular tournaments; you guys had house rules against playing Axis VS Axis & Allies VS Allies. Oh, and everyone makes mistakes, even you.

fifleche

04-25-2006, 08:35 AM

No problem, it's a learning experience for all of us.

Speaking of which, Aries really jumped on the turn. It's now your movement phase.Am at work. Cannot concentrate enough in front of maps here...

:D

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 08:42 AM

Am at work. Cannot concentrate enough in front of maps here...

:D

That's cool, looks like I'm not getting called in today so I should have the evening free. A fair chance to get at least all of turn 2 finished if Aries is also free.

Bobsalt

04-25-2006, 08:50 AM

I am so wanting to kibbitiz! I think fiflehce is in great position to win at this point.

Is sending a PM to one of the players appropriate etiquette? Of course, it's unlikely I've seen something that either (or both) players haven't already seen.

Aries

04-25-2006, 09:02 AM

I probably will not be able to finish turn 2 later tonight but I could if fiflehce can get his turn in by 4:30pm today. Otherwise I can do it first thing in the morning.

Thanks for your vote of confidence Bobsalt. :D

Just as a disclaimer I never said that FaveDave's build was unbeatable (or one I would have fielded) but I will use what he has built and has done thorugh turn 1 to the best of my ability. If I lose it will be because of me and not the build or turn 1 FaveDave manuvering.

fifleche

04-25-2006, 09:08 AM

Well, as I've said, I've received some PM's. But these were mainly (with 2 exceptions) some "beat the crap out of him!" PM's.

The 2 exceptions, one was "I am wishing you get beat up because it would prove the supposed unbeatable Americans can be beat, and hard. But I am also wishing you win to teach FaveDave a lesson in humility!" & the other was a political discussion I was having a while back.

Either way, Bobsalt, ppl have been commenting strategy here on the Boards & on MektonZero's page hosting the jpg's. So I don't mind, either player you want to support...

Bobsalt

04-25-2006, 09:09 AM

Thanks for your vote of confidence Bobsalt. :D

Hey, no problem Aries - that's what friends are for! :D

I don't really want to say more about the game without knowing what's appropriate etiquette. I will say that you did exactly what I would have done on turn 2.

Joisey

04-25-2006, 09:14 AM

Not unless you want to take up to a month to resolve every single turn. Due to work I can make a roll every 12 hours (on average, sometimes longer). If I have to make up to 30 rolls in one set of assault phases it's going to take far too long. Not to mention the time and potential confusion. At a minimum it will take me several minutes to open VASSAL, load the module, find the units you're talking about, make the roll, assess the damage, place the markers, put a fired marker on the unit, save the game, create an email with that one result and send it, wait for you to read it, send me your second attack and then wait for me to get to my email. That's without any confusion, what if there is a disagreement about a unit having already been fired? Am I supposed to spend another 5 minutes per roll creating new screenshots? Do I really want to do this up to 210 times per game? No, I already have a job. :D

Does it change the game some, yes. Does it change it equally for both players, yes. Can someone with half an ounce of tactical sense use some conditional orders to mitigate much of the drawback, yes. Is it more realistic, actually yes. :)
I understand Mekton, and will abide by your conditions. I just had to ask.

Actually, I wasn't aware that you would take conditional orders. That actually mollifies the problem of wasted fire somewhat.

Aries

04-25-2006, 09:20 AM

Colonel_Coo

04-25-2006, 09:23 AM

It appeared to me when one of the Panzer IV's didn't go Boom! that the Axis had a distinct advantage.

That advantage was that their 2 tanks would live to shoot again on the second turn.

I had posted that I expect both Tanks to fire on 1 target (the Rhino) in order to kill it.

That would have left the SSPG-s to move and spread (stacking limits with a Disrutped Panzer) and pushed the Motor-Cycles through town. At this point you have to expect the remaining Rhino to move north and take a bead on the damaged Panzer.

Turn two combat would be both Panzer IV's shooting at the 105.

To keep the 105's from moving (so your panzers can kill them), the Motorcycles had to be placed 1 per unit. (everywhere a 105 is at, a BMW should be there as well). Since the damaged Panzer is going to get toasted by the Rhino, no need to worry it. Since the Rhino will move out and still toast the Panzer, no need to worry about disrupting it.

So, during combat, the BMW's should have occupied the hexes with the 105's and the one RHINO should have had BOTH Elites fire at it.

Turn two, if the Axis wins, they should force the Allied Player to move first. THe Axis is set to stop the 105's from moving and to toast the 105 close in. The Allied player would be down to throwing only two shots once again.

None of this happened. As a result, at the start of turn 2 the Allies will manuever in an have 4 units tofire with. The Axis will lose two tanks and a BMW at the minimum. The allies will lose 1 tank.

Game over.

You cannot run and gun and Germany.

Joisey

04-25-2006, 09:24 AM

Joisey

04-25-2006, 09:26 AM

Commentary would be great. I am still learning the tactical/strategy side of AAM and knowing how others think only helps me improve in the long run.

Nice to know, Bobsalt, that us Louisville, KY natives think alike. :D
Your move finishing out Turn 1 was a little less aggressive than mine.

Now I really don't know who to root for, since I like Both Aries and Fifeche alot. :(

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 09:28 AM

I understand Mekton, and will abide by your conditions. I just had to ask.

Actually, I wasn't aware that you would take conditional orders. That actually mollifies the problem of wasted fire somewhat.

Ah, I brought it up in the original thread and in the instructions to the participants and I touch on it here and there along the way but didn't realize that we'd pick up so many people who weren't in the original thread. I just don't have time to run things any faster than one set of orders per phase, mainly due to the startup times and lag getting back to my computer. But I've got time to execute one set of orders which can be as detailed as the participants care to make them. As long as I can understand it; I'll implement it.

It was the best solution I could see to the problem; but if someone's got a better one I'd love to hear it. I don't think that we'll ever get to the point where people can just trust others to make their own die rolls and report the results. :D

Aries

04-25-2006, 09:32 AM

Thanks for the comments Colonel Coo. I chose to split the fire which in hindsight was probably no as effective as concentrating on the 105. However the game is not quite over in my thinking. I like taking the battle to the bitter end. You never know how things might end up. Dice and player's strategy can be very tricky.

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 09:33 AM

Darn! Oh well, I'm sure that Aries will act as an "Honorable Second" in this Gentlemanly Duel for "He Who Shall Not Be Named". Good Luck Aries! Hail and Well Met, Brave Warrior!

FYI: Domhall101 and I have agreed to do a match using HHR rules. We are discussing a date for the scenario and point totals.

Outstanding. If there is anything you want me to randomize for you guys, such as maps, just let me know.

<grumble>Ack, HHR! Time for me to finally get the HHR stuff and enter the HHR stats into the module</grumble> :D

Will be pretty quick actually (thank the programmers of VASSAL who implemented mass cut and paste), public play of the HHR can only increase interest in their excellent work.

Aries

04-25-2006, 09:34 AM

Your move finishing out Turn 1 was a little less aggressive than mine.

Now I really don't know who to root for, since I like Both Aries and Fifeche alot. :(

What would have been more aggressive if you can say? Root for both since it is a friendly game of war. That way you will be on the winning side ;)

Joisey

04-25-2006, 09:35 AM

I think Aries' Panzer IV's had pretty good dice against Fifiche's tanks. I like his move of the BMW's to Fifeche's backfield to bag the other 105. If it goes down, game over. As it is, the Panzer IV's probably have enough left in them to exchange with Fifeche's other two tanks. Fifeche could easily be down to one Rhino by the end of this turn and still be facing 6 SSPG's for the objective.

Looks like a handy win for Aries.

Aries

04-25-2006, 09:36 AM

I also would be interested in playing online like this again. MektronZero may have found a new job :D .

Joisey

04-25-2006, 09:41 AM

Outstanding. If there is anything you want me to randomize for you guys, such as maps, just let me know.

<grumble>Ack, HHR! Time for me to finally get the HHR stuff and enter the HHR stats into the module</grumble> :D

Will be pretty quick actually (thank the programmers of VASSAL who implemented mass cut and paste), public play of the HHR can only increase interest in their excellent work.
We have just finished the HHR Air Rules (I may need to type this out for you) and we have finished revisions of all the airplanes, flak guns, Katyusha, and Puma.

I also would like to echo my thanks for your efforts. Dom and I are really excited about this opportunity to publically showcase the HHR ruleset that we've put so much effort into as well.

Colonel_Coo

04-25-2006, 09:51 AM

I like the board position. But the threat of Disruption is pretty effective to lock a tank down (or soldier for the matter).

Had the Rhino been killed, the Axis position would be strong and moving towards dominant. Disruption on a Rhino is as good as a miss. Defensive Fire on a Rhino is only effective if the Rhino is going to get shot at.

By leaving the 4 allied tanks on the field the Axis is going to take a pounding on turn 2. Remember the Rhino does not care about the disruption.

By moving both BMW's into the backfield, the 105 there will lock down and not move. I like this move, but don't think I'd stay and fight them.

However, the front 105 may or may not have enough fire power thrown against it to destroy it. Figure lucky shot with a Panzer IV will finish it, but a close assualt with a BMW would seal the deal. Meanwhile, the Rhino's will line up to take the shot at the top Panzer IV. The Panzer IV will disrupt a Rhino in a return fire.
The BMW's could have been moved to deny entry to the Rhinos to hexes that have a clear lane of fire on the Elite Panzer IV that is damaged. You'd want to deny the fire lane to the Rhino's. Prepositioning of the BMW's during turn 1 combat to those routes would have worked as well.

As it sits, the BMW's are locking down the 105. With Close Assualt 6, they shoudl manage to disrupt it and MIGHT manage to damage it.

End of turn 2 predictions: 2 dead Panzer IV's. 1 dead BMW if they chose to fight. Possible dead Arisaka Rifle.

Dead Sherman 105. Disrupted/damaged 105 or disrutped/damaged Rhino.

Aries

04-25-2006, 10:05 AM

Not sure I understand this:
The BMW's could have been moved to deny entry to the Rhinos to hexes that have a clear lane of fire on the Elite Panzer IV that is damaged.

How can the BMW deny a Rhino from hexes as the Rhino just ignore disruptions from DF?

Colonel_Coo

04-25-2006, 10:27 AM

D2 and E2. Spread out on the 1st turn Combat step. Denies movement through those hexes without a DF shot. It certainly denies those hexes for occupancy.

By the way, the movement of the SS-PG (actually one on turn 3) allows you to kill the damaged/disrutped 105 with close combat at +1 per die. Do not shoot at the Damaged/Disrupted 105 with your Panzer IV on turn 2 unless you have no other targets. You want to damage another unit with the two Panzers. Nothing was going to stop the Rhinos from moving to kill the Panzers. Exposure of one Rhino guarenteed.

By moving first on turn 2 you shot yourself. You took away the BMW's ability to close in on any target during the movement step (allowing Close assualt).

From the lack of Death of the real threat against you (the Rhino's win on points while the 105's cannot) and lack of set-up to kill a 105 and possibly the 2nd Rhino you have put yourself in a hole with this Axis force. It is bad enough that two of your units are useless (nearly so). You 20mm might get a pop off on the now damaged 105. That is worth the shot at this point.

You've clustered your soldiers and that minimizes their options, ability to move to cover (they will trip over themselves) and deny the north end of the map from the Allies. You've also exposed your H'Furher to possible strike without putting him in a favorable placement.

Of course this is all just my opinion.

Please do not feel offended that your tactics differ from mine. At no point do I think you've commited grevious errors.

shadowhooch

04-25-2006, 11:03 AM

Yeah, it's gonna be real hard for the Axis to win unless they can take one of the Rhinos with the Panzer IVs.

Allies number 1 focus should be destroying the 2 Panzer IVs, the BMW's, and then just one more unit (to have points assuming the 105's die). If they can do that without losing a Rhino, Allies can drive circles around the objective until the game is over at turn 10.

I'd say odds are 70 - 30 in favor of the Allies at this point. Will be even better if those two BMWs miss and the 105 takes one out.

mlund

04-25-2006, 11:06 AM

Well, I see the Americans as basically forced to bring both Rhinos to shooting positions this turn. The 105 can't be counted on to destroy the enemy Panzer IV, and if you're going to expose 1 Rhino, you've got nothing to lose exposing the other. I'm predicting a dead 105, a Disrupted and Damaged (maybe even Destroyed) Rhino, on that front. The Panzergrenadiers will continue to advance as well, and likely 1 PAK 38 will move into a stronger position. Both Panzer IV's will die in flames this round.

The poor 105 behind the town won't move, and will probably get Disrupted, maybe even Damaged, while wiping out one BMWs. The other BMW has a fair chance to escalate the damage next round or at least Disrupt it again, pinning it long enough for the SS Panzergrenadiers to finish the tank off.

It'll be 4 Grenadiers and the Arisaka + 2x PAK 38 + Hampsturmfurher dancing around the center of the board with 1 Damaged and 1 fresh Rhino. Can the Germans force a position where the Rhinos don't just waltz into the objective hexes on turn 10 for the win? We shall see.

- Marty Lund

Aries

04-25-2006, 11:17 AM

So I missed my opportunity by no concentrating fire on the 105 on turn one and by not manuvering the BMW (D2/E2) to inhibt the Rhino. That one still has me a bit confused as the Rhino could still go to F2 or C2 for shots at the PzIVDs.

fifleche

04-25-2006, 11:18 AM

Pak38? There are no Pak's... You must mean Flak! Alot less threathening... ;)

Aries

04-25-2006, 11:21 AM

I was actually wishing for one Pak40. Those 20mm are not much help here.

Uncle_Joe

04-25-2006, 11:27 AM

Yeah, I'm not a fan having TWO AA guns in any build. I just dont consider planes to be that much of a tournament threat and realistically, the biggest threat is the P51 which the Flak guns arent going to prevent the damage from anyways.

To me, pitch one flak gun and the Arisaka and get 2 Pzrfsts or 1 Pak38.

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 11:28 AM

Not sure I understand this:

How can the BMW deny a Rhino from hexes as the Rhino just ignore disruptions from DF?

That is true, but for the rest of the turn the Rhino will be defense 4. Depending on the circumstances you might not want one of your tanks to move into the enemy field of fire with a defense one lower than normal; it could easily be the difference between taking a disruption and taking a damage. At the very least it gives your enemy something to think about.

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 11:30 AM

It'll be 4 Grenadiers and the Arisaka + 2x PAK 38 + Hampsturmfurher dancing around the center of the board with 1 Damaged and 1 fresh Rhino. Can the Germans force a position where the Rhinos don't just waltz into the objective hexes on turn 10 for the win? We shall see.

- Marty Lund

Those aren't Pak38, they are 20mm anti-aircraft guns. Aries is wishing they were Pak 38s about now.

mlund

04-25-2006, 11:44 AM

Those aren't Pak38, they are 20mm anti-aircraft guns. Aries is wishing they were Pak 38s about now.

Oh. I see.

Well now, that's a whole different kettle of fish then.

Germany is utterly hosed. The Rhinos can freely camp out of reach from the Panzergrenadiers and dive for the objective on the last turn without signficant fear of being eliminated.

- Marty Lund

Joisey

04-25-2006, 11:45 AM

I was actually wishing for one Pak40. Those 20mm are not much help here.
They would be marginally effective IF they get a short range shot at the rear of a disrupted tank. Good Luck arranging that! :)

mlund

04-25-2006, 11:46 AM

To me, pitch one flak gun and the Arisaka and get 2 Pzrfsts or 1 Pak38.

I agree emphatically. I really didn't even contemplate the possibility that there were 2 AA guns there.

- Marty Lund

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 11:47 AM

I also would be interested in playing online like this again. MektronZero may have found a new job :D .

Heh. I just finished inputting the corrected stats, icons and counters for the completed Historical House Rules (HHR) Sets 1 and 2. Now even more people are going to want to play. Find an opponent or three and get to it. :)

I can probably run 3-5 of these at the same time without much trouble.

Just a notice to everyone though. I'll be out of town from Early Friday to Mid Sunday or so at RECON 2006.

Colonel_Coo

04-25-2006, 11:55 AM

Aries

04-25-2006, 11:56 AM

Enough with the negative vibes! Men, deploy the secret weapon. Beer keg mines. It will force the American crews to abandon their tanks to collect them and our 20mm will reek havoc. Victory will be mine :eek:

Aries

04-25-2006, 11:56 AM

I guess I see the 105 as a bigger threat to my SS PzGrds.

Aries

04-25-2006, 11:58 AM

Heh. I just finished inputting the corrected stats, icons and counters for the completed Historical House Rules (HHR) Sets 1 and 2. Now even more people are going to want to play. Find an opponent or three and get to it. :)

I can probably run 3-5 of these at the same time without much trouble.

Just a notice to everyone though. I'll be out of town from Early Friday to Mid Sunday or so at RECON 2006.

I challenge my friend Bobsalt to a HHR game from Set I/II. I personally have never played HHR stats but I do not mind giving it a chance. The gauntlet has been thrown.

Elfy

04-25-2006, 12:00 PM

Would someone like to give it a go with me in a standard 100pt tournament battle? I'm not very experienced yet, but I'll give it my best if someone wants to battle with me =)

Aries

04-25-2006, 12:02 PM

Would someone like to give it a go with me in a standard 100pt tournament battle? I'm not very experienced yet, but I'll give it my best if someone wants to battle with me =)

If Bobsalt declines (I see he possibly has a game already arranged) I will take up the challenge. Set I/II standard rules.

At least I thought Bobsalt did, now I cannot find the post.

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 12:11 PM

Oh. I see.

Well now, that's a whole different kettle of fish then.

Germany is utterly hosed. The Rhinos can freely camp out of reach from the Panzergrenadiers and dive for the objective on the last turn without signficant fear of being eliminated.

- Marty Lund

At the simplest, have the disrupted Rhino move into the town, say E2 and the undisrupted one take its place on D9. There is roughly an 80% chance that the undisrupted Rhino and the 105 can kill both Panzers and a 65% chance to kill both BMWs with the other two (of course if one of the Pz IV doesn't die, just have it kill the Pz IV instead of a BMW. In return the damaged 105 has about a 35% chance of being killed by the SSPG close assault and the two BMWs have about no chance of killing the other 105, disrupted sure, damaged - possibly, killed - the odds are roughly 150 to 1 against. The two Pz IVs have about a 20% chance to kill an undisrupted Rhino.

If you want to really toss the dice, move the 105 out of the close assault with the BMWs and hope you don't get disrupted. That's a sure win if it works, and probably a sure loss if it doesn't. :)

Colonel_Coo

04-25-2006, 12:18 PM

F2 should not be denied. It has fire arcs on both Panzers and can fire back at them.

C2 should be ignored. The brushcutter can enter that hex but it gets return fire by two units as well. B1, C2, E2 and F2 are targeted by the 20mm as well (allow yourself to get lucky).

To fire from these positions allows a full exchange. This is desireable since the Axis tanks cannot move. 2 BMW's, 2 Elites, 2 20mm. It also places the allied tanks close to the soldiers (however, the soldiers are not spread out so this is not so important anymore)

It also puts every allied tank under the threat of the BMW's. However this is not important anymore becasue the Axis went first and now the Allies can move to avoid any meaningful attack from the BMW's. This wasted the 7 points of why we have the H'Furher instead of the WOL.

The BMW's can only deny movement under threat of a face of disruption (easy to hit the 4/3 defense of the Rhino with a CA BMW and a disrupted Elite).

Center placement of the units in the aforementioned regions prevents superior positions of the Allied tanks in a cover with only 1 Axis shot at a disrutped Rhino. (Disrupted Rhino to D4).

Disrupted Rhino move to D4. Kills D7 Panzer IV.
Sherman 105 moves from F-3 to B1. Kills any target Soldier
Sherman 105 damaged stays and kills E8 Panzer IV.
Rhino moves to C-2. Kills any Target Soldier.

BMW move during combat. No shot taken.
Both 20mm shoot at the damaged 105. Maybe you get really lucky.
Elite Panzer IV shoot at target of choice in cover. 33% of ignoring any damage.

Game over.

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 12:20 PM

If Bobsalt declines (I see he possibly has a game already arranged) I will take up the challenge. Set I/II standard rules.

If you're using standard rules, feel free to include set III.

The only reason I mentioned Set 1/2 above is that the HHR Committee has only done a handful of the set III units so far and haven't released new stat cards yet like they have for sets 1 and 2.

It is very likely that Joisey and Dom will be using some of the other set III units with the standard stats in their game.

Y2UAsk

04-25-2006, 12:22 PM

Allies number 1 focus should be destroying the 2 Panzer IVs, the BMW's, and then just one more unit (to have points assuming the 105's die). If they can do that without losing a Rhino, Allies can drive circles around the objective until the game is over at turn 10.But that's easier said than done with the Germans controlling the initiative 5 out 6 turns. They can duck and weave to protect their units, too, and until the Allies overtake the points lead, they must press the fight.

Steve

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 12:28 PM

Sherman 105 moves from F-3 to B1. Kills any target Soldier

BMW move during combat. No shot taken.

You're assuming that the Sherman 105 actually gets to leave the hex. It's got about a 4 in 9 chance to make it. And if it fails it has a 1/3 chance of being killed, 1/3 chance of being damaged in the following assault phase.

Elfy

04-25-2006, 12:34 PM

If Bobsalt declines (I see he possibly has a game already arranged) I will take up the challenge.

Groovy =)

Set I/II standard rules.

...but with sets I, II, and III =)

...feel free to include set III.

yup yup yup =)

Aries

04-25-2006, 01:03 PM

Elfy - If Bobsalt declines my challenge I will take you up on it. I do not want to play too many games at one time (want to give other people the chance). If we do play, do you want to use aircraft? If so, can I recommend at least using the HHR air rules instead.

shadowhooch

04-25-2006, 01:17 PM

Aries

04-25-2006, 01:22 PM

Having an online gaming section would be very nice. I do not think it would hurt AAM sales in the least as even though it is fun it does not replace "pushing plastic"!!!! It may even attract more customers. WOTC could even host online tournements.

Nothing can ever replace seeing the look on my father-in-law's face as my Tiger I turret turned to target his T-34/76 in our very first game.

Aries

04-25-2006, 01:23 PM

Groovy =)

...but with sets I, II, and III =)

yup yup yup =)

I just was contacted by Bobsalt and he is busy so we are on for a game if you like. Standard 100 pt game. Which aircraft rules (if any) do you wish to use and do you want Axis or Allies?

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 01:34 PM

Metkon,

Have you gotten any permission or flak from WotC to distribute or sell this VASSAL game?

It would take a lot of burden off of you if people could resolve their own battles over threads.

If WotC supported, they could have a whole section for battles. You could find a battle you were interested in viewing and pull up the open that thread's VASSAL anytime and peek in to check it out. It would be up to those two players to keep the VASSAL informative (like you are doing).

This VASSAL you got is cool.

VASSAL is just a system, there are a lot more modules than just this A&AM one. As for WotC, I don't have permission to distribute the module, although I have asked someone at WotC about it; I'm sure they'll have to talk about it for a bit. It will never be for sale, should I get permission it will always be freely available.

Y2UAsk, WotC Staffmember, has popped in here a couple of times with encouraging comments so they are far from giving me any flak about it. As long as it exists on only my computer they seem content.

VASSAL doesn't really support online updating of saved games. However people could attach save games to their messages so people could simply open them and see what is going on. For example, the current save game for this battle is only 1,501 bytes in size as VASSAL automatically zips everything, modules and saved games alike to save space.

RaidingParty

04-25-2006, 01:43 PM

I'd also like to test-drive some unorthodox builds in online play, though it seems we have a queue building up! Any takers? :)

Colonel_Coo

04-25-2006, 01:55 PM

I'd also like to test-drive some unorthodox builds in online play, though it seems we have a queue building up! Any takers? :)
I'd play. I prefer historical restrictions.

Elfy

04-25-2006, 02:09 PM

I just was contacted by Bobsalt and he is busy so we are on for a game if you like. Standard 100 pt game. Which aircraft rules (if any) do you wish to use and do you want Axis or Allies?

I'll try variants later, but right now I would prefer a standard rules, 100pt tournament game with sets I, II, and III please. Standard rules (including standard aircraft rules) with all current errata applied. In other words, the exact sort of game that is ran in sanctioned tournaments =)

...do you want Axis or Allies?

I kinda like playing the baddies, but I can play the goodies if you prefer the playing baddies instead =)

Aries

04-25-2006, 02:49 PM

I will play Allies. 100 pts. Standard rules with historical restrictions (ie no mixing German or Japanese, US/Brits, or Russia).

MektonZero - If you are willing to run this game for Elfy and I we will PM you our armies by tomorrow (I will not be able to get to it tonight) and you can randomly select a map. The easiest way to reveal each others builds would be to start a new thread for the game when you are ready with our armies listed, a link to the map and let us know who decides to place first.

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 03:06 PM

I will play Allies. 100 pts. Standard rules with historical restrictions (ie no mixing German or Japanese).

MektonZero - If you are willing to run this game for Elfy and I we will PM you our armies by tomorrow (I will not be able to get to it tonight) and you can randomly select a map. The easiest way to reveal each others builds would be to start a new thread for the game when you are ready with our armies listed, a link to the map and let us know who decides to place first.

No doubt, I'm not nearly crazy enough to run both of these in one thread at the same time. :)

Just don't be worried if the map flips after the first time you see it. The Rulebook maps are top to bottom I have to lay out the module maps side to side so the counters can start facing a hexside, and you can see from the existing screenshots that there is a definite left or right orentation to the counters. So, no matter what the allies will be on the left side so everyone's vehicle counters aren't upside down. I have rotated map layouts in the module in case the allies want to, or are forced to, defend the bottom of the map. Same layouts, just rotated 180 degrees so the allies can always be on the left.

Elfy

04-25-2006, 03:07 PM

...with historical restrictions (ie no mixing German or Japanese, US/Brits, or Russia).

Playing the baddies, I'd either pick a pure German or Japanese force anyway, so it's fine with me, but just to point out, standard tournaments aren't restricted in that way =)

Would you set-up/run this for us please, MektonZero? Thank you =)

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 03:09 PM

Playing the baddies, I'd either pick a pure German or Japanese force anyway, so it's fine with me, but just to point out, standard tournaments aren't restricted in that way =)

Would you set-up/run this for us please, MektonZero? Thank you =)

Sure will. Just waiting for you guys to pm me, or email if you prefer; your army lists. Then I pick a map and let you guys know who sets up first; whoever does will have first choice of which map side to set up on.

FaveDAve

04-25-2006, 03:15 PM

I have never been less than courteous to you. Anything else is a fantasy on your part, nothing more.

Now stop trying to disrupt the game and move along to something else.
Thanks.

Look, you weirdo - stop talking to me. Leave me alone.

I am not going to go into the details of your correspondence - if you don't know what was wrong with them already, then there's no point in discussing it.

Clearly, we live in different moral universes with different concepts of decency and humanity, and your version digusts me.

Just stop talking to me and I'll stop talking to you. And about you.

That's really the best thing.

Arontje

04-25-2006, 04:15 PM

J.L.Robert

04-25-2006, 04:31 PM

Ok, folks. I need to chime in here to clear the air some.

FaveDAve loves this game. He's VERY passionate about it. But he's also a very good player, and knows how to build strong tournament armies in our local scene.

When he arrives at a local tournament, he's the player I concern myself with the most. He'll usually have a good foil to my builds, so I often have to rely on my tactical skills (and a fortunate dice roll or two) to beat him. I'm 3-2 against him in tournament games, and four of those games have determined the tourney winner.

Someone stated that we're handicapped in our tourneys because we typically don't allow Axis to play against Axis and Allies to play against Allies. That doesn't matter...a strong build is a strong build, regardless of opponent. On the contrary, having TWO winable armies is a credit to a player's talent to be flexible and capable of running two different types of forces (often using radically different strategies).

Now, the conduct during this experiment is a separate issue, and one I will not comment on, as I am not fully-knowledgable on the matter. But, please, people, put an end to the bashing that's going on. Play out the scenario, comment freely on its outcome, then question the quality of the Axis build vs. a TOURNAMENT build (which was the original point that was trying to be made) and the validity of the Allied build in a tournament environment (which, IMO, is dubious, at best).

Zhukov

04-25-2006, 05:07 PM

Insane. I swear yesterday there werent 23 pages!!! This is insane. I skimmed it, and the results were odd as most of you might see it.

Lotus

04-25-2006, 05:18 PM

Your move finishing out Turn 1 was a little less aggressive than mine.

Now I really don't know who to root for, since I like Both Aries and Fifeche alot. :(

I still root for Fif, but wish a hearty good luck to both players, whom I well respect.

Incidently, I started to think it was a joke when I first checked the thread tonight. Sheesh! The "Twilight Zone" part is not Mekton but the way it all worked out. And if anyone has watched enough Twilight Zones, they know not all episodes ended badly. :D

Have fun guys! It's fun watching.

FaveDAve

04-25-2006, 05:34 PM

Luckily you are the only person on this forum that seem very unsportive. And with an ego rising to the sky. And also bailing out while you think you have the best army possible.

Ah well. Not all people can be kind I guess.

Dude, I did not bail out. This whole game started because of me, remember? I tried to work with him till the end...

And as for being unsupportive, I am talking about his emails, not the posts on the forum. You didn't see his emails. The stuff he posted here was tame until he started bashing me and denying his behavior he exhibited in emails.

As for my "ego rising to the sky" - you got it wrong. My ego rises to the ends of the universe.

Joisey

04-25-2006, 06:54 PM

Look, you weirdo - stop talking to me. Leave me alone.

I am not going to go into the details of your correspondence - if you don't know what was wrong with them already, then there's no point in discussing it.

Clearly, we live in different moral universes with different concepts of decency and humanity, and your version digusts me.

Just stop talking to me and I'll stop talking to you. And about you.

That's really the best thing.
Well, I've tried alot of cases in my day, and I make my living deciding who's telling the truth, and who's not.

This post is enough for me. I believe Mektron's side of this. He has only posted as a sane, rational, and mature adult. You have not done so, and I look you in the eye when I say it!

And I cannot abide a quitter. Your denials don't add up, imo. I find it hard to believe that if a whiner like you really couldn't get your orders accepted/processed for two days that you wouldn't have made a public comment about it. I tend to believe Mektron that you were too obstinate to do your orders properly.

Your step into the gutter of puerile name-calling only confirms my suspicions on this.

For my part, I think you've made yourself a candidate for a Klingon style "Discommodation" on the Boards---a shunned pariah.

<closes crossed fists to chest and turns his back on FaveDave the Quitter....forever>

FaveDAve

04-25-2006, 07:20 PM

And I cannot abide a quitter. Your denials don't add up, imo. I find it hard to believe that if a whiner like you really couldn't get your orders accepted/processed for two days that you wouldn't have made a public comment about it. I tend to believe Mektron that you were too obstinate to do your orders properly.

For my part, I think you've made yourself a candidate for a Klingon style "Discommodation" on the Boards---a shunned pariah.

Oh no, someone who quotes Klingon law thinks I'm a quitter. I will never be able to hold my head up in public again...at a Geek Convention!

...

Herbavida

04-25-2006, 07:30 PM

Well, I've tried alot of cases in my day, and I make my living deciding who's telling the truth, and who's not.

This post is enough for me. I believe Mektron's side of this. He has only posted as a sane, rational, and mature adult. You have not done so, and I look you in the eye when I say it!

And I cannot abide a quitter. Your denials don't add up, imo. I find it hard to believe that if a whiner like you really couldn't get your orders accepted/processed for two days that you wouldn't have made a public comment about it. I tend to believe Mektron that you were too obstinate to do your orders properly.

Your step into the gutter of puerile name-calling only confirms my suspicions on this.

For my part, I think you've made yourself a candidate for a Klingon style "Discommodation" on the Boards---a shunned pariah.

<closes crossed fists to chest and turns his back on FaveDave the Quitter....forever>

I think this is all getting a little melodramatic--and this from someone who's middle name is melodrama.

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 07:32 PM

And as for being unsupportive, I am talking about his emails, not the posts on the forum. You didn't see his emails. The stuff he posted here was tame until he started bashing me and denying his behavior he exhibited in emails.

It's kind of cute when you go on like this. Shaking your tiny fists at the sky and demanding some kind of public vindication of your position. I as much as said earlier in this thread that I disagree with your take on the situation and that you'd be better off finding something more worthwhile to do with your time rather than rant and rave here about it. Instead you call me names and start a seperate thread on the board looking for whatever validation of your worldview that you so desperately crave.

You've tried to cheat in your game with Fifleche by asking me to break the rules for you, insulted me because I refused to do so, now you are on some kind of crusade to make me look like the wrongdoer because I felt that my principles were more important than a friendship between us. Earlier in this thread you said that my moral universe disgusts you; you have no idea just how relieved I was to hear you say that.

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 07:45 PM

I think this is all getting a little melodramatic--and this from someone who's middle name is melodrama.

Drama is good, war without drama is all sterile and uninteresting. :)

I won't judge melodrama though, that's a personal taste we all have different tolerances for. :D

Lotus

04-25-2006, 07:57 PM

Mekton, do you envision the possibility of a forum devoted to this kind of gaming, were WoTC to give the blessing?

Where there's a thread, there's a game...

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 08:19 PM

Mekton, do you envision the possibility of a forum devoted to this kind of gaming, were WoTC to give the blessing?

Where there's a thread, there's a game...

At one thead per game we fit in here pretty well. If they ever allow me to distribute the module we'd probably need a forum, If need be I'll find a forum and stuff it on my page someplace but I wouldn't want to take away from this board, I rather like it.

Hey, isn't Fifleche due to send me a set of move orders? :)

Photoner Hawkwind

04-25-2006, 08:28 PM

Please do not see this as an insult, but rather see it my way: in all my time on the AH boards, I've never seen someone so adamant about the strength of his build. This can mean (roughly) two things: one, you're just plain stubborn, or two, you're a tactical/strategic/overall genius. Since less than 1 in 100,000 ppl can even be remotely considered a genius, I went with the odds! :D

Only an observation and of course only my opinion, so please none of you take offense. But I really don't think the average person is even capable of grasping this game.

Most gamers(not all, but most) do have above average intelligence and most(not all) who post here have even more than above average intelligence or they wouldn't be able to articulate such complex theories as we discuss here.
So I believe their are a few geniuses among us.

Also, I can't think of anyone with above average intelligence that is passionate about something who is not a little stubborn about their passion.

That includes me too. :D

Count_Ciano

04-25-2006, 08:40 PM

We have just finished the HHR Air Rules (I may need to type this out for you) and we have finished revisions of all the airplanes, flak guns, Katyusha, and Puma.

I also would like to echo my thanks for your efforts. Dom and I are really excited about this opportunity to publically showcase the HHR ruleset that we've put so much effort into as well.

THAT I look VERY forward to seeing! :cool:

fifleche

04-25-2006, 08:44 PM

I'm here. Looking at my options now! :D

Photoner Hawkwind

04-25-2006, 08:47 PM

One more comment, Since none of us have the complete evidence of what went on in personal emails, maybe we make assumptions that we shouldn't make.

I have a lot of respect for most of you on these boards and I'd like to keep it that way. Maybe the answers for future games is that all moves and communication should be done through posts if only to keep from criticizing assumed behavior.

And for all those of us old enough I shouldn't have to explain what I mean by assume. An I do hate being a part of that word. :D

Hey, it's only a game.

fifleche

04-25-2006, 09:01 PM

Arontje

04-25-2006, 09:33 PM

Dude, I did not bail out. This whole game started because of me, remember? I tried to work with him till the end...

And as for being unsupportive, I am talking about his emails, not the posts on the forum. You didn't see his emails. The stuff he posted here was tame until he started bashing me and denying his behavior he exhibited in emails.

Ok. The benefit of the doubt you got from me then. But still... I think you will get better responses if you aproach people a bit more friendly.

As for my "ego rising to the sky" - you got it wrong. My ego rises to the ends of the universe.

LOL. Glad to know that you dont deny it. Altough this worries me too

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 09:43 PM

THAT I look VERY forward to seeing! :cool:

I've updated the Site, I have the map for the Joisey/Domhnall101 game up. It's 3x3, 200 points per side; gonna be quite a battle royale for that center town.

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 09:48 PM

Only an observation and of course only my opinion, so please none of you take offense. But I really don't think the average person is even capable of grasping this game.

Most gamers(not all, but most) do have above average intelligence and most(not all) who post here have even more than above average intelligence or they wouldn't be able to articulate such complex theories as we discuss here.
So I believe their are a few geniuses among us.

Also, I can't think of anyone with above average intelligence that is passionate about something who is not a little stubborn about their passion.

That includes me too. :D

I'd say less Geniuses and more Practice Makes Perfect. :D

No offense intended to anyone but long time gamers like myself are well aware that when it comes to wargames, 28 years worth of wargaming experience in a 36 year old mind can seem like genius sometimes. But outside of wargames we're just regular folks, not A-List Mensa members. :)

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 10:01 PM

1- Dis/Dam 105 doesn't move (surprise!)
2-Rhino on Charlie E3 moves to Charlie E2, facing East, in the town
3-Disrupted Rhino on Charlie D1 moves to Charlie D4 (using brushcutters), facing East, into the woods
4-intact 105 on Charlie F3 moves to Charlie C3, facing South-East

Onwards to the assault phase!

(First Rhino)
<WHAAM>
"We're hit, doesn't seem serious."
"I'm not sticking around to find out. Driver, back up 200 yards to the treeline!"
"Roger."

(Second Rhino)
"Enemy armor reported on the far side of the town. Move in to get a shot."
"What about the 105?"
"They can take care of themselves, we must clear those woods!"

(First Damaged 105)
"BOOM!"
"We're hit! We're hit!"
"Are we on fire?"
"How should I know?"
"Stick your head out and look."
"No way!"
"Gunner, tank front."
"What!?! Where?"
"Front Damn You!"
"Where, I can't see it?"
"AAAAHHH!?!?"

(Second 105)
"Motorbikes! Get us out of here!"
"Where are they?"
"I can't see them, they're too fast!"
<clink>
<BOOOM!>
<....R1 don't leave, we're under close attack....>

Defensive fire rolls of 2,2,1,6,3,5 and 3,6,4,4,1,5 keep the Sherman 105 in place. Good thing I'm not a 105 driver. :)

fifleche

04-25-2006, 10:04 PM

Photoner Hawkwind

04-25-2006, 10:06 PM

I'd say less Geniuses and more Practice Makes Perfect. :D

No offense intended to anyone but long time gamers like myself are well aware that when it comes to wargames, 28 years worth of wargaming experience in a 36 year old mind can seem like genius sometimes. But outside of wargames we're just regular folks, not A-List Mensa members. :)

You may notice if you read the who plays A&AM thread that some of us A-List Mensa members are there. And anyone else who has been involved in law for awhile is close to if not in the genius catagory. I'm not just referring to a couple of attorneys from NY either. :D

fifleche

04-25-2006, 10:15 PM

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 10:53 PM

The links are kind of mixed, mind you, MektonZero. I've been looking at "Fifleche Moves into Cover" and it doesn't make any sense. Took me 30 seconds I was still making the "current screenshot" mistake.

And btw, I am not complaining. I am learning. :D

But it is confusing.

Ack, made a slight html mistake when I split the running commentary from the main page to a separate page. All better now. :)

At least the Current Screenshot for that page was up to date.

So what did you think of my running commentary. :p

And what do you guys think about the upcoming Monster HRR game?

fifleche

04-25-2006, 10:57 PM

Yeah, like I told, I am not complaining, I am merely saying it is/was kind of confusing. Won't get caught again.

The comment is quite fun, don't stop! :)

Did I mention I feel like an idiot?

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 11:01 PM

Yeah, like I told, I am not complaining, I am merely saying it is/was kind of confusing. Won't get caught again.

By all means, always point out if something confuses you. I can't fix something if I don't know it's broken. If you, or anyone else for that matter, has any constructive suggestions for either the module or the website, I want to hear them.

The comment is quite fun, don't stop! :)

Did I mention I feel like an idiot?

Not yet, but you've no cause to feel like one. You're still in a pretty good position at this point.

MektonZero

04-25-2006, 11:14 PM

You know what? I did just discover I'd been using the WRONG image for my move orders... Now I feel like an idiot... LOL!

I was like "OHNOIMUSTTELLMEKTONZEROTOVOIDMYMOVESOHNO..." I had been using the "Aries takes the initiative" screenshot, thus I did not figure those bikes were on my intact 105...

Oh well, live & learn! :p

Next time, I'll be sure to check up more carefully, tho. And the "current screenshot" SHOULD also be on the bottom of the page, imo.

Nah, at the top. The commentary might have gotten quite long and having the current screenshot at the top was a time saver; rather than have to scroll all the way to the bottom of the page every single time just to get the latest shot. Not to mention that there wouldn't be much sense putting a current screenshot directly under the screenshot of the most recent phase since they are the exact same picture. :)

Now the current screenshots are on the front page as well to save time.

No matter, the odds are excellent that you're going to end the turn with two intact rhinos and a damaged or less 105 on your side. The odds are also on your side that the Pzs are toast and more than likely you will take out a Bike this turn as well. After that you just run your Rhinos around killing anything in sight until it comes down to contesting the objective for points. You've still got a decent position.