Why the hero is horribly broken

[Frogslayer]

Ok, now we´ve seen our first hero...At first I thought "well that was not as bad as I thought. No silly individuals or overly silly SAs"

But when looking at it from a power-perspective, this unit is problably the most broken infantry ever!

Let´s compare it with a SE paratrooper, the best infantry so far (IMHO, but ok, lets say they and the SS-PG are at pair).

It has BETTER combat stats: 10/7/- instead of 9/7/- (same def, same CA 8)

The "Hard charger" is what makes the SEPT extremely powerful. The "ignore face up disruption counters" is even better! (the difference is that you now can def fire in movement phase, and move in movement phase)

But doesn´t the SE PT have the teleport ability? Well, the hero does too! Just paradrop a SE PT, and the next turn, before moving, you paradrop your hero. It´s just delayed a turn (or less then that, since it can move directly).

It cost 1 Pts less the SE PT.

Lastly, how good is the Improvision ability? Horribly good as i is now. The SA itself seem cool, you take over the weaponry from your victims..Cool...but wait! It doesn´t stop you from using FRIENDLY units! Oh...My....God!!!!

So, now pershing, bofors, 17-pounder etc have "extra lives!?" Hey, a def 5 17-pounder!

Even if they errata that (which they MUST do) with the paradrop it´s still not difficult to take over a pak´40, or in the final stages, a IV D elite that must go for the objective.

The cost should be much higher then 8. Compare with the (IMO already broken) SE PT...+1 AP at close range, lets say that takes out the slightly budget paradrop...Then we have improved Hard charger (at least 1 Pts)...and the extra lives thing (at least 7 pts as it is now, if only enemies then at least 2 pts...so if the SE PT should cost 10, this would be like, 18 or 13 pts.

Power-gamers should add an equal amount of these as SE PT, so a new parabomb could be like:

5 Heroes (40)
5 Paratroopers (45)
1 Captain (11)
1 filler (4 pts, I´d take bazooka)

Edit: the army above is after the errata that MUST and WILL come. Before that you should add 17-pounders or 3"Gun (preferable as it´s US), shermans (play slow and paradrop right so the hero can "join" the tank when the battle comes.) KV-1 (just dismount before it dies). Bofors could also be used if you setup well.

[Lynx7725]

Ok, before it gets too far out of hand, recall that there was a similar hoo-haa about the aircraft rules, and we found out -- much too late and after there was a lot of angst over the boards -- that certain other rules got errated/ changed. The interactions of said rules proved critical in our perception of the aircraft rules.

Something similar might be in the works here too (fr'ex, vehicles traits cannot be hero'ed.. maybe). Truth to be told, I don't think there will be as the hero rules seems pretty straight-forward.

As stated elsewhere, I'm not happy with the concept WotC chose to implement heroism. I don't like the idea of hero units appearing "as and when we most need them", as it smacks of superheroism (didn't know Superman was in WWII... Captain America was though).

I rather heroism be implemented as a 8-point card effect (ignore face-up disruption counters for rest of game, unit is not destroyed, bonus to hit, make extra attacks this turn, etc).

I will also be very interested to see the stats for an Axis hero. If there exists an Axis hero.

I think it's time for WotC to review what they intend to do with AAM and what their audience/ customers -- of which a vocal slice (majority or minority) is represented here -- wants AAM to be. It's getting to the point where things are starting to look a tad bit ridiculous.

[gloriesofold]

The Hero jumps in the blasted sherman, quickly repairs the gun from damaged and loses the -1 to hit penalty ,Automatically "Assimilates" the info neede to operate the weapon, does the work of an entire tank crew, and all for 8 pts?
This isn't a Hero Its The BORG!!!!!! You will be Assimalated, resistance is futile!

[Frogslayer]

This isn't a Hero Its The BORG!!!!!! You will be Assimalated, resistance is futile!

Heh! :D (but wait, why am I laughing, you´re horribly right :( )

[RaidingParty]

You could say that on the plus side, the Resourceful Hero makes AT guns and tank destroyers viable again. On the downside, it really really beefs up the Bofors and other units that don't need it. I can see the broken combo now. A pair of Resourceful Heroes leaping into the shattered remains of a M36 and a Bofors near the objective.

Universal Carrier x1 (10)
Jeep x2 (8)
M36 x1 (36)
Hero x2 (16)
Bofors x1 (9)
plus 21 points of other stuff!

Or trade the M36 for a 17-pounder on a UC. That might be better because your opponent could just damage the M36 and let it live. It's easier to accidentally destroy an AA gun, then resurrect it into a killing machine.

Wait, I just thought of a better combo. If you play mixed Allies, put him in the same hex as a Katyusha. 13 dice at medium and 11 dice at long with no penalty = sick.

Katyusha x1 (12)
Jeep x2 (8)
17-pounder x1 (16)
Universal Carrier x1 (10)
Hero x2 (16)
plus 38 points of other stuff!


So after a bold run to the objective and the sacrifice of two light units, our Heroes have 15/13/11 AT and 10/13/11 AI, 5/5 infantry defense and no penalty for disruption.

Congratulations WOTC, you've just broken the game.

[Sean-Khan]

Seriously thinking of making a house rule: "Heroes do not exist". Or then I'll just skip d-day and start to save for Star Wars Ship combat game, if it proves to be good.

Errata, at least hero needs lots of errata and other fixes! I want to play ww2 combats, not Rambo and captured messerscmitts!

[boersma8]

The Hero jumps in the blasted sherman, quickly repairs the gun from damaged and loses the -1 to hit penalty ,Automatically "Assimilates" the info neede to operate the weapon, does the work of an entire tank crew, and all for 8 pts?
This isn't a Hero Its The BORG!!!!!! You will be Assimalated, resistance is futile!

I would've liked to have seen the hero rules altered so that they could only take over the equipment of (non- officer) SOLDIERS, not vehicles. The vehicles were probably damaged before.....BTW, I thought soldier-units (and their firepower?!) represented a NUMBER of soldiers and not just 1.....So this hero picks up, say ten bazookas and starts blazing away at the enemy tanks?????

[Zeime]

Improvisation: "If a soldier or a vehicle is destroyed in the same hex as this unit, this unit can use the attack values of the destroyed unit as long as it remains in the destroyed units hex."
Sure this rule is good but it means you have to be in the same hex when the Bofors, Sherman, M36 ... is destroyed which might be tricky to succed with, and you can´t move out of the hex if you want to use it´s attack value. Then it might be very easy to outmaneuver the hero. I agree that it´s a really good unit but it´s not worth 18 points, maybe 10 points

[Richter von Manthofen]

A question arises... Must the hero be in the hex when the unit is destroyed or can he move in later (in real world I would assume the latter). From the SA wording it seems not clear (i am no native speaker).

The fact that the Hero can't movewith the aquired attack value is one point that speaks for this ability, but I think this ability while not broken is too powerful to remain as it is.

The hero itself is also too cheap - especially if used along Paratroopers (arrivíng late ;) for the fight).

[Xzuatl]

I think that the Hero has an incredibly high attack value for a unit that is supposed to represent a single individual. It may be argued that his Hero status makes him more deadly, but his SAs dont really immitate that.. A mix of Crack Shot, hard charger, and angrif would have been better. Just another reason to use HHR rules.

[XAos]

A question arises... Must the hero be in the hex when the unit is destroyed or can he move in later (in real world I would assume the latter). From the SA wording it seems not clear (i am no native speaker).
From the wording it looks clear that the hero must be in the hex when the unit is destroyed. Which usually occurs in the casualty phase (except/flamethrowers)
So you deploy a vehicle swarm (Shermans, Katyushas etc) within movement of a hero (usually 4 hexes) And when one of them gets 3 face down hit markers in assault phase;1, you move the vehicle to the same hex as the Hero in assault phase:2.

[Colonel_Coo]

Too cheap for the ability.

Bazooka x2 (8p)
Hero x4 (32p)
Vickers x2 (16p)
Jeep x4 (16p)
Universal Carrier x1 (10p)
17lb anti-tank gun (16p)

That is 4 soldiers on Jeeps and 1 ATG on Universal. Start mounted. Place appropriately on the objective and then bring in the hero's.

If you'd like to bring in a captain of some sort, just switch a Hero and you'll have the 2 extra points to spend on leadership.

[Richter von Manthofen]

From the wording it looks clear that the hero must be in the hex when the unit is destroyed. Which usually occurs in the casualty phase (except/flamethrowers)
So you deploy a vehicle swarm (Shermans, Katyushas etc) within movement of a hero (usually 4 hexes) And when one of them gets 3 face down hit markers in assault phase;1, you move the vehicle to the same hex as the Hero in assault phase:2.

It is going from bad to worse - just make sure that you go second and the destroyed unit teleports to the Hero ;)

[Colonel_Coo]

Since most of agree that the Hero is TOO STRONG (oddly anti-tank Planes are weak at 21 points and generally cannot kill a tank in one pass) for 8 points and give second life to some serious firepower. With a Universal Carrier there is no ATG that cannot gain a 5 defense. With the KV-1, you want the dang thing to die if gets damaged. With cheap infantry you'll not only swarm your opponent but once you get there, your Hero materializes.

On a Jeep waiting in the wind, the Hero can get anywhere a destroyed enemy uber tank awaits.

All for 8 points.

So, what if the Improvisational was modified to say "Soldiers"? No more climbing in the burned hulk of the easy 8 to continue carnage from the main gun. No more fixing the KV-1 that just got whacked to get her firing some more. What if it is Soldiers only?

Would that work better?
Or what if the defense was lower?

Me personally, I am tired of 5 defense soldier units. A hero with a defense 4 would not be nearly as bad. A defense 3 would be better (there are a lot of postumously awards medals for heroism).

[Richter von Manthofen]

Make that Start the turn in the destroyed units hex - at least the transport issue would be from the playing table.

Slowly I wonder what the playtesters did...

[Aries]

I would just like to point out my Avatar was posted before the Improvisation SA was posted. :D

[Bobsalt]

I would just like to point out my Avatar was posted before the Improvisation SA was posted. :D

Yes, and we all laughed about it when we first saw that guy carrying the 3" gun. Little did we know then how prophetic that was going to be...

[Frogslayer]

Apart from being broken, no unit has ever this far caused this much rules confusion. Like asked above, can i leave a destroyed unit and return later? Will it ignore "No turret" SAs? Will it ignore the -1 penalty on each die when using katyusha? Do it have enhanced/extended range when using such units?

Also, the realism factor is zero, concidering its ONE soldier only who operates a tank or the like alone. A squad, fine. One person, no.

Finally, some tactic for it:

Deploy with some random soldier behind the objective, then have 2 heroes "join" 2 Archers(or rhino or whatever). Slowly move them in line of fire. When they die, they are resurrected as undisruptable Def 5 units, with 15/13/11 AT. An ATG immune to most german armor. 7/7/6 is compleatly useless, and even 9/9/7 must be lucky to score 6 hits.

I do not agree with an erlier post saying it´s "tricky" to make the resurrection work. It´s very, very easy to ressurrect friendly units. Just play like above.

An obvious target is sherman and rhino. they too, are much better in their resurrected form. Infantry undisruptable def 5 is much better then vehicle def 5.

A not for the rhino: if going second, and if it´s killed and not in a hero hex, it can move into it in the assault phase. Well, all thanks can do this, but often they´re disrupted the round before they die, so they can´t move.

If the katyusha combo works (no -1 penalty) it will be a true MONSTER! You will beg the opponent to kill it (from 1 to 5 armor, firepower increased by 1/3.

I think I underestimated the points of this units when saying 18. Without the SA its like 10 pts. but an SA that quite easily ressureccts a 21 pts unit and makes it better then before? Well maybe it should cost...21 pts?

[Xzuatl]

Also I believe the Hero will diminish the effectiveness of aircraft attacks against weak units like the Katy.

[Colonel_Coo]

the basic problem with the Hero is the Cost.

8 points is too cheap. It should be on par with WOL at 13pts.

[Aries]

Yes, and we all laughed about it when we first saw that guy carrying the 3" gun. Little did we know then how prophetic that was going to be...

I used to play D&D a long time ago and I remember such a unit, it was called a Doppleganger.

Guess we can see what resources WOTC is researching their new units from. Forget history books, or even the history channel, let's look at Dungeon Masters Guide 2nd Edition. :(

[horacus]

Ok, the Hero is crappy overpowerfull, let's don't use it. Problem resolved. A unit that is overpowerful, well, I don't like to use it, in this case, the hero will only fill a space in the box and in the trades space, it is too advantageous.

[Aries]

So we do not use the Hero because it is over powered. We do not use the Spitfire as it is just plain wrong. That is 2 of the 45 units. Where does it stop?

[horacus]

It stops there, and if the STATS of the Spirfire are ok, wich the important are THE STATS in this game, I will use it.

[Marquis]

Ok, the Hero is crappy overpowerfull, let's don't use it. Problem resolved. A unit that is overpowerful, well, I don't like to use it, in this case, the hero will only fill a space in the box and in the trades space, it is too advantageous.


Oh come on!! He isn't that powerful. It's not like he can jump in the burning tank and drive around in it! He's stuck there. If he moves he looses the destroyed units ability. Let's just give the piece a try before we declare it broken beyond repair.

I remember all the crying and nashing of teeth about the Shermans, the airplanes, the Paratroopers, now the heros. Will it ever end? Maybe they shouldn't even put up previews it doesn't seen to be helpful for some people. Oh wait there is all kind of whinning about not preview too. If I was Wotc Bob I'd quite feeding the monster of discontent.

Can't people show a little bit of respect and restraint! I mean it's a game, if you think you can do better please go invest in making a better game and I'll buy it.

-Dave

[Hiro]

Should the Resourceful Hero be lucky enough to be in the same hex as an opponent's unit when it is destroyed, they can make use of the weaponry they find, albeit in a limited fashion

This is what I pulled from the article. I think the intent of the improvision is with regards to destroyed enemy units only in the same hex as the hiro. The SA as written is a little obscure, but I think they will add an errata for it. Hopefully they will add a sniper that rolls 2 extra dice against heroes only.

Anti-Hiro 9 points
speed 1
defense 4/4
AS 6/6/6
AV 1/1/1
Crack shot
Anti-Hiro shot- rolls 2 extra dice at enemy hiros
Superior Camoflage

[Xzuatl]

I remember all the crying and nashing of teeth about the Shermans, the airplanes, the Paratroopers, now the heros. Will it ever end?
Never. Broken units tend to stay broken. I want a German Hero to teleport next to my BMW when I attack the shermans. :)

[horacus]

Let's give it a try, the most sure is that it will win ALL the tourneys, but well, lets give a opportunity to the game.

[Marquis]

Let's give it a try, the most sure is that it will win ALL the tourneys, but well, lets give a opportunity to the game.


One unit never won any tourney. Even multiples of that unit never won any tourney. I once fought a Panther and all SSPG's in a tourney and they never got close the the objective. My mortors took those SSPG's out at long range. It was the easiest battle I ever fought.

If you build a one sided army you will be sure to loose.

[MektonZero]

With the KV-1, you want the dang thing to die if gets damaged. With cheap infantry you'll not only swarm your opponent but once you get there, your Hero materializes.

On a Jeep waiting in the wind, the Hero can get anywhere a destroyed enemy uber tank awaits.

Really? So you drive your jeep up to the hex next to the enemy tank that just took 3 hits. You unload your Hero. Then what?

[dredlox]

Heh heh, being the combo type of guy I am, i realized something I suspect you guys havent ;-)

The commisar lets you "destroy" your own units. Hmm, let's see, I'll destroy this disrupted 17 pounder and now my hero ... fires his 17 pounder at +1 attack dice!!

Dude, the resourceful hero is cool, come on ;-)

[dredlox]

One thing that balances him though, did you notice is he's the first "nation specific" piece. I think that's why they made him a little more powerful

[MektonZero]

Apart from being broken, no unit has ever this far caused this much rules confusion. Like asked above, can i leave a destroyed unit and return later? Will it ignore "No turret" SAs? Will it ignore the -1 penalty on each die when using katyusha? Do it have enhanced/extended range when using such units?

The only confusion is the confusion people are giving it by not actually reading the SA. "Attack Value" is clearly defined in the glossary and "as long as it remains in the destroyed unit's hex" isn't hard to understand either.

Also, the realism factor is zero, concidering its ONE soldier only who operates a tank or the like alone. A squad, fine. One person, no.

Given that the tank can't move, or benefit from special abilites like extended range or blast and bombardment due to a high rate of fire what's the problem? There is no step in loading, aiming and firing a tank gun that one person could not do alone.

Deploy with some random soldier behind the objective, then have 2 heroes "join" 2 Archers(or rhino or whatever). Slowly move them in line of fire. When they die, they are resurrected as undisruptable Def 5 units, with 15/13/11 AT. An ATG immune to most german armor. 7/7/6 is compleatly useless, and even 9/9/7 must be lucky to score 6 hits.

Immune to disruption does not mean that you are required to score 6 hits to kill it. Two attacks of 5 hits will kill it just as dead. And being immune to most German armor shouldn't be a problem, if your build can't handle a couple of Def 5 infantry that build would resign on turn 1 if a parabomb shows up. If you think that one Hero is going to cripple your entire army, perhaps you should kill it first.

[Autarch]

If the katyusha combo works (no -1 penalty) it will be a true MONSTER! You will beg the opponent to kill it (from 1 to 5 armor, firepower increased by 1/3.



If the Russians get a (super)hero they'll say:

"Kill my Katy, please make it better!"

lol

Hero has errata written all over him, though I still like the concept.

[Uncle_Joe]

Yep, just his combat and 'spawning' abilities alone are easily worth MORE than 8 points. His 'clone' ability pushes the units into the realm of stupidity both from a balance and realism point of view.

I'm also tired of Defense 5 Infantry and ESPECIALLY tired of Defense 5 Infantry that ignores Disruption or removes Disruption or gets stronger when Disrupted or automatically wins the game when Disrupted and blah blah blah. Why bother have the concept in the game to weaken units when the vast majority of the units that its needed against dont have to worry about it!?!

I was really looking forward to this set, but so far I've seen an awful lot of CRAP and not much good added to the game. Scenario specific units, re-tread models, and CLEARLY broken and utterly stupid SAs are making me seriously reconsider my further investment in this game.

[CdtWeasel]

Yep, just his combat and 'spawning' abilities alone are easily worth MORE than 8 points. His 'clone' ability pushes the units into the realm of stupidity both from a balance and realism point of view.

I'm also tired of Defense 5 Infantry and ESPECIALLY tired of Defense 5 Infantry that ignores Disruption or removes Disruption or gets stronger when Disrupted or automatically wins the game when Disrupted and blah blah blah. Why bother have the concept in the game to weaken units when the vast majority of the units that its needed against dont have to worry about it!?!

I was really looking forward to this set, but so far I've seen an awful lot of CRAP and not much good added to the game. Scenario specific units, re-tread models, and CLEARLY broken and utterly stupid SAs are making me seriously reconsider my further investment in this game.

I agree that def 5 is a bit high, but I'm a bit curious to try and proxy this guy tomorrow night and find out if he is really broken or not so much (as has been the case with most things)

[Uncle_Joe]

I've been a big proponent of the game already being balanced. I never thought that the Allies were soooo much better or that the Paras are over the top or anything of the sort. But this is too far simply because is of the utter stupidity it introduces.

I dont need Defense 5, immune to Disruption Flamethrowers sitting on the objective or similarly 'immune' AT guns and whatnot. It just sucks the fun right out for me when the game becomes more about getting the little 'trick' to work rather than employing strategy.

I'm not saying that every game that Heros are in is a 'win' or anything of the sort, but simply the effort of trying to get the little combos to work is NOT the direction I want to be thinking (as in..."hmmm, I shouldnt shoot at that Bofors this turn because if I hit it, it becomes the uber-weapon and I'll NEVER kill it"...those kinds of thought processes should not be inflicted on the player).

[CdtWeasel]

Could it be that the SA is poorly written and only works for the turn the unit is destroyed in the same hex. So that the hero can't move then fire with a tank cannon. Granted they don't normally make typos like that but it may be a slight possiblity.

[MektonZero]

I was really looking forward to this set, but so far I've seen an awful lot of CRAP and not much good added to the game. Scenario specific units, re-tread models, and CLEARLY broken and utterly stupid SAs are making me seriously reconsider my further investment in this game.

What did you really expect? There has to be something in each set superior to everything that came before it, otherwise there is no incentive for tournament players to buy any of the new set.

Let's be honest here, anyone looking for something even in the neighborhood of semi-realistic WW2 combat isn't playing A&AM. That train left the station a long, long time ago; I gave up any pretense of this being a realistic game the second I realized that a Tiger rolling 17 successes when attacking a KV-1 will only damage it.

[MektonZero]

Could it be that the SA is poorly written and only works for the turn the unit is destroyed in the same hex. So that the hero can't move then fire with a tank cannon. Granted they don't normally make typos like that but it may be a slight possiblity.

It's already written so that the hero can't move and then fire with a tank cannon.

[MektonZero]

I dont need Defense 5, immune to Disruption Flamethrowers sitting on the objective

And we still don't have them. Happy now?

There is nothing in the Improvisation SA that lets a unit use a SA belonging to another unit. The only thing they would get from a flamethrower is 7 AV dice at short range, the AI dice are the same so there would be no improvement.

[Uncle_Joe]

Let's be honest here, anyone looking for something even in the neighborhood of semi-realistic WW2 combat isn't playing A&AM.

I totally disagree with this. Its not supposed to be a 'simulation', I agree. But that doesnt mean it has to introduce elements that are completely beyond the possibility of WW2 combat. And this is CLEARLY one of them. There is a difference between combat results being off and the introduction of elements that break the laws of reality (even as abstracted in the game).

Its the same as if they added Jet Packs or Giant Monsters Eating Tanks (oh wait, we had that...but that was a joke...well, so is this, but its not meant as one).

What did you really expect? There has to be something in each set superior to everything that came before it, otherwise there is no incentive for tournament players to buy any of the new set

This is not true either. Its VERY clear from the demographics of this game that simply adding more variety to the game would all that is necessary without the power-creep. In fact, I'm of the opinion that the first two expansions did that quite well despite the feelings on Paras or planes etc.

Besides, for every 'tournament player' out there, I'm quite sure there are 4-5 OTHER players out there. If WotC wants to throw their lot in with the tournament players at the expense of the others, thats there prerogative, but it doesnt make financial sense to me.

Yes, we've all heard 'the sky is falling' before, but you know, they can only push it so far before it really does fall. And for me, its hitting that point and thats scary considering how big of a fan I've been of the game and how much I've defended the current units and game balance.

[Sean-Khan]

I gave up any pretense of this being a realistic game the second I realized that a Tiger rolling 17 successes when attacking a KV-1 will only damage it.
What, has that been clarified? That's Double the vehicle's defence, which means 3 hits, which means it should be destroyed!

[Uncle_Joe]

There is nothing in the Improvisation SA that lets a unit use a SA belonging to another unit. The only thing they would get from a flamethrower is 7 AV dice at short range, the AI dice are the same so there would be no improvement.

Granted. Poor example. The AT/Bofors/Quad 50 etc will still function (granted without the SAs). I think the best example I've seen so far is the BM13. If the SAs dont 'copy', it actually gets BETTER than the original vehicle vs point targets.

Any which way, its going to lead to 'gamey' thinking on BOTH sides of the table.

[Origen]

I'm thinking....

So, I park my hero and my Priest together, giving me excellent AI dice when they kill the Priest. Then I park my M18 on the hero when it dies, giving me excellent AT dice as well. I wonder how many dead units this guy can use at once?

And you all thought you already knew how to abuse this guy.....

To be fair, as the opponent I'm going to shoot Mr. Hero first every time, so his Improv SA shouldn't be that big a deal. If he ever does use it, I avoid him. Doesn't mean he won't be abused, but he isn't that bad since we will all know his SA before the game even starts.

[Kriegshund]

What, has that been clarified? That's Double the vehicle's defence, which means 3 hits, which means it should be destroyed!

The KV-1 has the Hulking Mass SA. It ignores the first damaged counter it gets.

[MektonZero]

Also I believe the Hero will diminish the effectiveness of aircraft attacks against weak units like the Katy.

Probably not as much as you'd think, if I used a plane against a Kat (which is going to be out of my LoS so my regular units just don't kill it), he can keep a Hero there all game long and I'll either kill the Hero with my aircraft or just leave him there impotent for the entire game without giving him any shots. If the Kat is in a good spot I'd probably just ignore it in favor of a better target until I can kill the hero first or if I really needed to get rid of the Rocket Salvo SA.

[Uncle_Joe]

To be fair, as the opponent I'm going to shoot Mr. Hero first every time,

Sure, if there is ONE of him. But with his stats and cost, I believe they are going to become 'normal' battle infantry. Use a few cheap units to get where you want and then start spawning Heros.

If he was 12 points, maybe, but at 8 points he is not paying much for his 'clone' ability given his combat stats and deployment abilities.

For example, a lot of people think the SE Para is already the best infantry unit in the game. And I've seen plenty of people deploy Paras in places they could have easily walked to so its not the 'Paratroop' SA that they are really after in many cases. The Hero is cheaper AND better in straight up combat. Paras remove disruption after movement so they can be pinned down for a turn and can be prevented from moving via Defensive Fire. The Hero cant. No more protecting your vehicles from CA by having infantry nearby...the Hero walks through the hail of fire unscathed and kills the vehicle...and there is NOTHING you can do about it.

Here's a fun thought...Inspiring LT behind a US unit gives it a 200m range unstoppable AT weapon that attacks the rear aspect. I wasnt aware that the US/Britain had deployed Javelin missiles in WW2, but I guess I was wrong.

[MektonZero]

Granted. Poor example. The AT/Bofors/Quad 50 etc will still function (granted without the SAs). I think the best example I've seen so far is the BM13. If the SAs dont 'copy', it actually gets BETTER than the original vehicle vs point targets.

Any which way, its going to lead to 'gamey' thinking on BOTH sides of the table.

I'm in complete agreement, but given the game mechanics we've already got that. Stacking light hits to kill extremely armored units is one of the most common examples. This game has the worst armor penetration mechanic I've seen in a wargame (and I'm using the term wargame loosely). :)

[MektonZero]

Here's a fun thought...Inspiring LT behind a US unit gives it a 200m range unstoppable AT weapon that attacks the rear aspect. I wasnt aware that the US/Britain had deployed Javelin missiles in WW2, but I guess I was wrong.

It's a perfect match to their tank which can't be close assaulted, not even when disrupted by a close assault.

[Uncle_Joe]

It's a perfect match to their tank which can't be close assaulted, not even when disrupted by a close assault.

Which was something I'd hope they'd errata away... Instead they introduce MORE assinine cheese to 'counter' the already present assinine cheese...woohoo!

I guess the only thing we can really do is vote with the wallet. And I, for one, intend to do just that. I'll use the online singles merchants to get the models I want and pretend the rest dont exist. I can guarantee I'll spend less on the game this way since so far, there doesnt appear to be all that much that I'm interested in. And the actual 'profit' margin will go to the singles merchant...not WotC.

I realize that I'm only one customer but I would wager that the double-whammy of the re-tread model and the utterly ridiculous SAs will take their toll. The former will hit the collectors and the historians hard while the latter will definately get under the skin of the game-play people. WotC managed to alienate almost the ENTIRE market in one two-unit preview. Now THATS quite an accomplishment! :rolleyes:

[NewtonCain]

Have some CHEESE for your whine. :p

[Uncle_Joe]

They've certainly given double helpings of cheese...

[Kriegshund]

Have some CHEESE for your whine. :p


WOTC has provided us with all the cheese we will ever need in this latest Opening Salvo......

[Sean-Khan]

The KV-1 has the Hulking Mass SA. It ignores the first damaged counter it gets.
And third counter gives you damaged as you ignored the first... I always had assumed that 3 hits automatically destroys. Understood.

[NorthernRommel]

Perhaps if they made heroes unique, so that only one is permitted per side in the game. Now that would restore some balance to the force. Albeit still tremendously broken.

[Skorpiun]

Yall don't get too ****** over this, but this is just "MY FEELINGS" on where the game is going. Feel free to laugh though. :D

Possible Set V hero.... LMAO

[Uncle_Joe]

You know at the current rate, thats probably not too far off. Perhaps Set VI though....

[Generaloberst_Beck]

Dammit, let´s wait for it to be played before coming to conclusions, will us?

[horacus]

That's maybie a good solution Generaloberst_Beck, but, some times, the dinamics they create are less and less realistic.....

[Moderator Sinister]

I heard the hero is just a repainted Screaming Eagle Captain.
















LOL

[shadowhooch]

Tina Turner just called and sang "WE DON'T NEED ANOTHER HEEEROOO!"

Seriously though, I don't have a problem with it YET.
Where is the wording that allows you to improvise with FRIENDLY units? Can someone direct me? That would be a really cheap SA. Maybe this is WotC's way of addressing not being able to defend yourself against aircraft attacks (Nashorn will live with a Hero by its side).

The only CONCRETE problem I see so far is that they are cheaper and superior to another existing soldier - the Screaming Eagle Paratrooper. This just causes you to buy a hero in conjuction with each SE (kinda lame and unrealistic).

It would be a little more realistic to limit it to 1 hero per side or at least have an increased cost for each additional hero.
Honestly, how many hero's are there in a skirmish. There's only 1 Rambo, not 5.

Otherwise, I'm waiting to reserve final judgement until all is revealed. Here's hopin......

[Generaloberst_Beck]

That's maybie a good solution Generaloberst_Beck, but, some times, the dinamics they create are less and less realistic.....

Not so much. There was this guy in the Battle of Madrid who became a great Tankhunter, he blasted the tracks of a good ammount of Italian armours... until he got toasted.

A hero (in this context) is just a brave guy with a good ammount of luck. But luck wears thinner with time and in the long term...

Besides: when are we going to see a "this-unit limit" for some of these blasted initiatives?

[Colonel_Coo]

Not so much.

Besides: when are we going to see a "this-unit limit" for some of these blasted initiatives?
You get to only use one inititive modifier.

[Generaloberst_Beck]

You get to only use one inititive modifier.

I mean the initiatives of WotC at autosabotaging the game (or what look like it).

[Colonel_Coo]

I mean the initiatives of WotC at autosabotaging the game (or what look like it).
Oh,
Really it is just too much of "collectible" and not enough "reality" part.

[tragicmishap]

You guys are all freaking out too much. Solution: Kill the Hero first. The Hero has to come in the movement phase right? So it can't come after the unit it wants to assimilate is already dead, because it can't come in the assault phase and after the assault phase the unit is removed. So say your opponent thinks you are going to kill a unit, so he drops his Hero in the same hex as that unit. Instead, you simply kill the Hero and that's it. Yes it's sick, but maybe it will teach all you tank loving fiends to field more infantry. Maybe it will teach everyone to keep their tanks with their infantry support. If you do that, it really shouldn't be a problem.

[tragicmishap]

It is going from bad to worse - just make sure that you go second and the destroyed unit teleports to the Hero ;)

Then you can't shoot with the destroyed unit that turn.

[polish_horsy]

I'm thinking about proposing to house-rule out all 5 defense infantry. Really most of the 3 and 4 defense infantry are fine or in a few cases a little underpowered for the cost. I don't like the headshot on the German sniper but beyond that the infantry magical units are limited to commanders and 5 defense units.

[tragicmishap]

I dont need Defense 5, immune to Disruption Flamethrowers sitting on the objective or similarly 'immune' AT guns and whatnot. It just sucks the fun right out for me when the game becomes more about getting the little 'trick' to work rather than employing strategy.


What do you think strategy is?

[tragicmishap]

Let's be honest here, anyone looking for something even in the neighborhood of semi-realistic WW2 combat isn't playing A&AM. That train left the station a long, long time ago; I gave up any pretense of this being a realistic game the second I realized that a Tiger rolling 17 successes when attacking a KV-1 will only damage it.

Quite right. Me and my friends are those kinds of people. I've heard FOW is much better in terms of realism. Go play that if you're so ****** off at WotC. I've thought about getting into FOW, but I just don't have the time or the money. This game suits me perfectly.

[Kaufschtick]

I heard the hero is just a repainted Screaming Eagle Captain. LOL.

Please tell us that whole thing was a joke...please, please (curls into fetal position, sobbing)... :confused:

[Moderator Sinister]

Please tell us that whole thing was a joke...please, please (curls into fetal position, sobbing)... :confused:


Don't worry! It's PAINTED different so it's easy to tell like the spitfire. It not a 109 IF it's got the bullseye on it!!!!

[gloriesofold]

Don't worry! It's PAINTED different so it's easy to tell like the spitfire. It not a 109 IF it's got the bullseye on it!!!!

I guess that means all of my shermans are getting a Tiger paintjob. As long as they have the correct markings, who cares? Finally a use for the Hellcat! paint RAF symbols on it, and you have a Spitfire!

[Uncle_Joe]

What do you think strategy is?

You know, I get the feeling that you couldn't care less if they introduced Space Zombies and Biker Babes with Lasers to the game as long you can still play and win by exploiting the mechanics. Yes, playing with Heros and trying to come up with this combo or that will still be fun for some people. I will not be one of them.

I, for one, want to play a WW2 themed game and make tactical decisions at least reminiscent of WW2 commanders. Yes the game is abstract and yes the game has unrealistic aspects as a result. That does not mean that its a good idea to continue to introduce further blatantly unrealisitic/ahistorical aspects to the game.

So what it comes down to is this. If I want to play a fantasy or sci-fi themed game, I will. I'll expect the units to have fantastic abilities or reality defying powers. When I play a WW2 themed games, I'd like it if the units were restricted to things that are at least in the same realm with reality. The Hero is not. Yes, Audie Murphy did some heroic things. I get it. That kind of stuff is already accounted for in the dice variation...You hit 7 out of 7, that good 'ole Audie up there doing his thing.

So while employing Heros and KV/Cossack and Rhinos blithely ignoring infantry might all be 'strategies', they arent anything resembling WW2 strategies or ideas. It might as well be WW2:The Gathering. And that is not the game I wish to play. I'm imagining that there are plenty of people here and elsewhere in agreement with that and if that be the case, WotC can either fix the problems or deal with the consequences of the change of market (for better or worse). My guess is that they will lose more customers than they gain by making the game less in tune with reality.

[40roundsready]

Well all of the chicken little speculation has begun over the hero unit much like with the introduction of new units in the previous 3 sets. I wonder why there is the expectation that everyone must be pleased with every unit in every set. There are units Im not fond of due to SAs and what not. I propose a simple solution.......Dont use them:O! Right now WotC has the advantage because they have play tested the hero. All the talk here is specualtion as to how it will influence the game overall. I am reserving judgement until I play with the hero before I say it is broken or cheesy.

[Uncle_Joe]

Broken is not even the chief consideration. I dont know if it will be game-breaking or not. Its the ridiculous images that it conjures up that I dont want to see. Its FAR FAR FAR worse than Horses in Jeeps IMO. That was stupid, but largely harmless IMO. And it didnt convey too terribly much benefit so it wasnt likely to occur in games all that often (unlike the Hero's magical SA).

If people were upset about Brummbars and flamethrowers shooting planes I cant understand how they would be surprised that people might balk at a 'Hero' becoming a one man BM-13 or suddenly aquiring the firepower of a King Tiger.

If the Hero cost 30 points he'd STILL be utterly stupid. At 8 points, its not only stupid, but potentially broken as well. I say potentially because you are right, we havent tested it. But broken or not, it will remain stupid and will just further the game down the path of fantasy over reality.

[DocD]

Wow....this thread is as funny as hell! I read everyone's post and couldn't stop laughing at some of the stuff.
But to tell you the truth.....I'm happy to be on the other side of the fence on this one!!

I was one of those big whiners about the planes, but I found out after the errata, they work fine and aren't overpowering or invincible.

Now, here comes the HERO, he's big, bad, 5 defense with a stupid SA!!.....
...LOL....I have to laugh.....come on guys....it's ok.

I don't think the Hero will be as bad as people make him out to be. True, many clarifications will need to be made, and as many believe, the Hero ERRATA is already being finalized.

Pray tell, I too could do without seeing another 5 def inf unit, but go ahead and place Doc on the designer's side this time. I will give them the benefit of the doubt (for whatever that's worth). I was wrong about Paratroopers, I was wrong about Planes.....so I'm going to go out on a limb and say I'm NOT wrong about Heros.....I just don't think the Hero will be that bad as some you are making them out to be.

[tragicmishap]

Hah, that's funny DocD. I can't say I had the same reaction, but yes it is pretty funny. I get the feeling some people are just realizing this is a game.

[MektonZero]

I am reserving judgement until I play with the hero before I say it is broken or cheesy.

The most imaginative usage I've seen so far. Using a Commisar to execute a 17 pounder stacked with a Hero in an adjacent hex, the Hero gets to immediately fire 15/13/11 AV dice at +1 per die and becomes a stationary ATG with 5 defense and 15/13/11 AV dice. Depending on your map that might very well be worth spending 8 points on.

[RaidingParty]

I hope they have errata for the Hero. Nothing bothers me more than a Hero who rips the rocket housing off of the wreckage of a Katyusha, aims it towards the sky, and shoots down planes with 13 dice at only -1 penalty.

Just imagining that makes me giggle. :D

[Kaufschtick]

Don't worry! It's PAINTED different so it's easy to tell like the spitfire. It not a 109 IF it's got the bullseye on it!!!!

You can't hide Sinister! No matter what thread you go to! I'll be right behind you...waiting for you to make a mistake, one slip of the tongue and the pranks up! You can't hold out forever! :D

Just like this statement here...

so it's easy to tell like the spitfire

Like the spitfire, you said like the spitfire...yet another piece of the puzzle...another clue..."the truth is out there"... :D

[tragicmishap]

Yeah that might be feasible with a less expensive unit.

I guess it's tantamount to spending 8 points to get your 17 lber two more defense points, the ability to ignore disrupted counters and one shot at a +1 and losing extended range and armor piercing rounds. Let's see...

+2 Defense
+no disrupted counters
+one shot at a +1
- armor piercing rounds
-any movement
-extended range 10
= 8 points

Seems reasonable to me.

[bazookajoe]

So we do not use the Hero because it is over powered. We do not use the Spitfire as it is just plain wrong. That is 2 of the 45 units. Where does it stop?



uh-oh wasn't there going to be more heros? this ones bad enough please say it aint so. what the next one has a nuclear attack or is that in set 6?

[LoeweAusNorden]

I agree about this unit. He desperetly needs some errata...repairs and takes over vehicles & soldiers, upgrading their defense, manning gun batteries alone...yeee, what a guy...

Hope that every nation gets one hero, at least for game-balance purposes (and that they are evenly broken like this one, thought I never hed to say this )...

But hey, the playtesters might have a different view. After all the have played with the new units...I´ll wait and see...

// LÖWE

[Lynx7725]

Hope that every nation gets one hero, at least for game-balance purposes (and that they are evenly broken like this one, thought I never hed to say this )...

Therein lies the scary bit.

In order to preserve some semblance of game balance, you'll need to include heroes on both sides. So let's say the US and Soviets get them, and the Germans and Japanese get them, with the other nations getting them in the future.

So what we're looking at is 4 Hero units -- which some of us are contemplating not using at all -- plus whatever train wreck units that comes with each set (the Spitfire looks to be the one this set). That's say, 5 units that are potentially unwanted in this set already. With the potential for even more units in future sets.

Am I really getting value for my money here?

[Richter von Manthofen]

I do not consider the Hero broken beyond repair!

Errata needed.

[dredlox]

Forget Bofors and quads, the 3 in gun just got a lot better. Have you seen this new unit?

Destroyed 3in Gun
Cost 8
armor 5/5
10.7
14.12.10

Ignores disrupted counters

;-)

Motor that 3inch gun up with a higgins boat or a UC, hopefully an eagle is there, and let the hero abuse begin.

Seriously, I think some errata is coming - like you can improvise destroyed ENEMY units only. Using your own stuff is just too crazy.

I like good pieces, even slightly abusive pieces, but I don't want "BWM with laser cannon" or "Captain America" and "Red Skull"

[mlund]

He's an Infantry Unit that becomes Immobile to use his SA. He'll either be irrelevant or get shot in the face and die. He's not a big deal. If anything, he just puts more pressure on army builds to be able to address Infantry threats rather than ignore them and simply take out all the enemy armor.

He's no more annoying to me that another Screaming Eagle Paratrooper, and definitely not as big of an offense against my sense of game balance as the M4A1 Sherman.

So I'm "meh" on the whole issue.

- Marty Lund

[Colonel_Coo]

And if not my Brumbar then my Japanese Mortar!