For those of u who plan to abandon AAM after Set 4...

["Easy Eight"]

Alright I did this for Set 3 and now I'll do it for Set 4.

First off is the Spitfire 109. If u people don't want repaints then quit the game! Also it's 100 something scale so does it matter what mold it came out of? I compared it to pictures of real spitfires and it looks the same!

Second off is the Hero. Yes it is undercosted. Yes there should be a 1 per army limit but that's life. U can always house rule Heroes. As for Historical Accuracy it's SA is true to life. Audie Murphy took control of a .50 MG on top of a burning M-10 Wolverine and called in artillery strikes at the same time.

Every time a new set comes u guys whine and whine over the smallest thing! If u don't like it then don't buy it!

[Generaloberst_Beck]

Alright I did this for Set 3 and now I'll do it for Set 4.

First off is the Spitfire 109. If u people don't want repaints then quit the game! Also it's 100 something scale so does it matter what mold it came out of? I compared it to pictures of real spitfires and it looks the same!

Second off is the Hero. Yes it is undercosted. Yes there should be a 1 per army limit but that's life. U can always house rule Heroes. As for Historical Accuracy it's SA is true to life. Audie Murphy took control of a .50 MG on top of a burning M-10 Wolverine and called in artillery strikes at the same time.

Every time a new set comes u guys whine and whine over the smallest thing! If u don't like it then don't buy it!

(Bowing in reverence before the voice of reason)

[Cruizin2000]

And now look who's whining...and started a post for it.

C2000

["Easy Eight"]

Also for those who support buying Set 4 put "Team AAM Junkie" on your Signature in big bold red letters

[destructorofner]

You know what, that is a good idea. I don't think I will buy anymore. OH wait! I already said that, so did the rest of us "whiners". We will see what happens when the tanks from future sets are all Sherman molds with German, Russian, British, Japanese paintjobs.

[CdtWeasel]

Yes I've already commited to not buying more of a poor product.

You could save money by just using paperclips and quarters for your minis you know. The stats can all be found online, so why bother buying any?

[Uncle_Joe]

You could save money by just using paperclips and quarters for your minis you know. The stats can all be found online, so why bother buying any?

I can see it now:

"No, no, no! THIS paperclip is the King Tiger...THAT paper clip is the Halftrack!!!...if you cant keep 'em straight that's your problem!" :D :D

[CdtWeasel]

Well I decided to save on storage space, so have replaced all my minis with post it notes, since they also stick to the map don't have to worry about knocking them off the table, triple win situation.

[destructorofner]

Well I decided to save on storage space, so have replaced all my minis with post it notes, since they also stick to the map don't have to worry about knocking them off the table, triple win situation.
Just make sure you give them the right paint job and you're good to go!! :D

[RommeL BombeR 77]

IS THIS THE AAM Apocalypse !!!!!!?

["Easy Eight"]

IS THIS THE AAM Apocalypse !!!!!!?

I hope not...

[destructorofner]

IS THIS THE AAM Apocalypse !!!!!!?
Yes, for me anyways. Intentional or not, we are being cheated. What will be the reaction if eventually all planes are me109s painted different, or all tanks are Shermans with different paintjobs?

["Easy Eight"]

What will be the reaction if eventually all planes are me109s painted different, or all tanks are Shermans with different paintjobs?

That's what it is for Pirates, Rocketmen and Race Day. Every ship/car is one of a selected mold and that mold is painted a thousand different ways.

[DocD]

Oh golly, here's another quit whining post.....geez.....let people give feedback.....hopefully the game and minis will get better.

[destructorofner]

That's what it is for Pirates, Rocketmen and Race Day. Every ship/car is one of a selected mold and that mold is painted a thousand different ways.
And you are OK with this?

["Easy Eight"]

And you are OK with this?

No I'm just comparing AAM to the Wizkids CSGs. But I can handle one or two repaints

[CdtWeasel]

That's what it is for Pirates, Rocketmen and Race Day. Every ship/car is one of a selected mold and that mold is painted a thousand different ways.

you also aren't paying $15 for a booster and they aren't advertised as all being unique models.

[Zhukov]

Also for those who support buying Set 4 put "Team AAM Junkie" on your Signature in big bold red letters
not big bold letters, lots of people really hate seeing that and the attitudes in general sticky post was a result of this. This communisty is corrupted and I feel I am on the verge of leaving AAM, not really because of the spitfire, heroes or stuff like that but it just isnt going anywhere, it does get odder each set and everyone at my store would rather have be playing FoW or something else.

[simonr1978]

First off is the Spitfire 109. If u people don't want repaints then quit the game! Also it's 100 something scale so does it matter what mold it came out of? I compared it to pictures of real spitfires and it looks the same!

Really, the Spitfires in the pictures you saw had leading edge slats, no Bulged Malcom Hood an inverted V engine instead of a V and didn't have eliptical wings? Wow, I guess all my plane books and all the other model Spitfires I've seen and/or built must have been wrong.

Thanks for correcting this glaring historical error on the part of everyone else. :rolleyes:

Scale is irrelevant and no excuse, I have a set of 1/300 aircraft including Spitfires and Messerschmitts which are easily distinguishable from one-another, hell, you can even tell the difference between the late model Spitfires and the early ones and that's at a much smaller scale.

Hell, I've seen 1/700 aircraft that were recognisable as what they were supposed to be!

[Predator666]

I agree completly with easy eight. I think ppl just need to quit whining about the game. If you don't like it quit or be quiet. I think we are just lucky to have the Spitfire. Otherwise the British could just be without a fighter.

[destructorofner]

I agree completly with easy eight. I think ppl just need to quit whining about the game. If you don't like it quit or be quiet. I think we are just lucky to have the Spitfire. Otherwise the British could just be without a fighter.
This forum is for people to express their opinions and have discussions about the game good or bad. I am getting tired of people telling me to be quiet because I don't share their opinion. This is how change happens. Enough people stand up and stop accepting garbage.

[Zhukov]

I agree completly with easy eight. I think ppl just need to quit whining about the game. If you don't like it quit or be quiet. I think we are just lucky to have the Spitfire. Otherwise the British could just be without a fighter.
I have to half agree. Mainly cause Wotc doesnt seem to fix many mistakes they make. Yet in another way complaints and whines can go to far.

[Lagduf]

For those giving up AAM w/ set 4, please sell me your miniature collection :D

[Ewokhunter92]

You know, alot of us in my area got tired of the "NEW" stuff coming out in Mech warrior, tank drops, artillery treams, etc, so we posted on the boards we were quitting and taking out money elsewhere...

Well, seems Mech warrior is still doing fine without "us" have have actually began to grow again.

So without further ado, I don't think WotC really care that much when a small minority quit over something they probably felt was a cost saving thing.

So posting here about it just may not being doing much other than getting yourself riled up. If you gotta quit, just do it. No sense posting here about it, really.

Not trying to start anything, but it's the truth.

[Lotus]

Anybody remember how fast we got an erratta for set III?

WoTC listened.

[Dr_Strangelove]

I suspect that this game is going to survive inspite of itself. There are more good miniatures then bad and even if the rules are not perfect they still have a following.

[Kriegshund]

I am so tired of these forum arguments that devolve into these childish "Whiners vs. Fanbois" exchanges.

Just because we have a different opinion than you doesn't invalidate our point of view. How dare you tell us to be quiet. We have just as much right to voice our dissastisfaction with these issues as you do to voice your support. You people are like the three monkies "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil". You see an opinion that you don't share and you just can't stand it, so you disrespect it, put it down, and call for silence.

Well sorry, but no. I will not be quiet. In many, many ways the people who display the loudest discontent are the ones who care most about the game. They are passionate about it, don't want to see things that injure it's potential. They have invested time and money, championed the game to their grognard friends who warned them, and now it's crumbling around their feet.

I believe the people who hide their head in the sand, say they don't care about bad production values, and that they will buy the product anyway are FAR more injurious to the future of the game than those of us screaming our discontent.

So fine, you disagree with me, that's fine. Please give us a coherent conversation and tell us why. Don't you dare.....DONT YOU DARE tell us to "be quiet", thats the cowards way out.

[Stojakovic]

I suspect that this game is going to survive inspite of itself. There are more good miniatures then bad and even if the rules are not perfect they still have a following.

I wonder if we can reflect the feelings of the people on here to the rest of the players who do not go on the boards?

[Stojakovic]

thats the cowards way out.

I would have to say it has nothing to do with being a coward. Infact the 2 are not even related. People have there own reason why. But a coward is not one of them.

[Kriegshund]

I would have to say it has nothing to do with being a coward. Infact the 2 are not even related. People have there own reason why. But a coward is not one of them.


:::Boggle:::

Well I have no idea what you are talking about...but really how is our differing view of cowardice germane to my post? Did you read or have an opinion other than one that is not relevant?

[Stojakovic]

:::Boggle:::

Well I have no idea what you are talking about...but really how is our differing view of cowardice germane to my post? Did you read or have an opinion other than one that is not relevant?

Yeah. You can be less crude to people.
You are complaining about the quality. And others are complaining about you complaining. How is that cowardly?
Yes it is your right to post your opinions but there are a certain level of manners you canuse even if you are not face to face with the person.

Sitting in front of your computer and degrading others from miles away is a cowardly act.

[Kriegshund]

Yeah. You can be less crude to people.
You are complaining about the quality. And others are complaining about you complaining. How is that cowardly?
Yes it is your right to post your opinions but there are a certain level of manners you canuse even if you are not face to face with the person.

Sitting in front of your computer and degrading others from miles away is a cowardly act.

So your answer is "No, I don't have a relevant opinion about your post" Thanks for your input. It is so noted. Next.....

[Stojakovic]

So your answer is "No, I don't have a relevant opinion about your post" Thanks for your input. It is so noted. Next.....

In your opinion... nice to have some jackass input :D

[Lotus]

Ya know, this happens every set. People see something that needs correcting, then they gnaw on each other.

Gnaw on the company until the product's in line with what we pay for it...but do it politely, ok?

Geez...I feel like I'm back at work. :rolleyes:

[Kriegshund]

Ya know, this happens every set. People see something that needs correcting, then they gnaw on each other.

Gnaw on the company until the product's in line with what we pay for it...but do it politely, ok?

Geez...I feel like I'm back at work. :rolleyes:

That's exactly my point....I am trying....I am trying to knaw on the company. But now we have this other obstacle of community members calling us names like "whiners" and telling us to "shut up" "go away", and "be quiet". It's funny that they are calling for silence, but don't realize that the volume level would be so much less if they didn't start these completely arbitrary "Shut up Whiners!" threads.

They don't like what we are saying, fine. Disagree and tell us why. Stop making these futile ad hominem attacks that accomplish absolutely nothing but just aggravating everything so much more than it needs to be....

[DocD]

Boys, boys.....calm down.

I don't have anything to complain about (yet) with this SET. Changes need to be made here and there, but the Doc is totally cool with the set. I wish people wouldn't get all insulted just because somebody says they don't like the set or are going to quit.

It's feedback people....feedback for the company....what's wrong with that.

[Stojakovic]

Boys, boys.....calm down.

I don't have anything to complain about (yet) with this SET. Changes need to be made here and there, but the Doc is totally cool with the set. I wish people wouldn't get all insulted just because somebody says they don't like the set or are going to quit.

It's feedback people....feedback for the company....what's wrong with that.

There is nothing wrong. There is just not a reason in the world to attack someone on a gaming forum.

[S.S. Panzer]

For me im a big fan of the game and i got my friends into it as well. The first set came out and we had alot of fun with playing it. And then with set 2 we were still happy with what was comming out. By the third set we were a little confused with the new ruls that were added to it and with aircraft. I personalyy was not intrested in them, but was willing to give it a shot for the better. Now with the d day set comminmg im really wondering if i should keep putting money into this hobby if the units are not what they should be and with the new addition of rules. I really hope that ah gets things together because id hate to have to quite. I really enjoy playing this game and for the people that have paid 500+ i can understand that it hurts alot to loose that money on somethiung that is below par. I just hope that ah can get things togther to save this game.

["Easy Eight"]

. This communisty is corrupted and I feel I am on the verge of leaving AAM, not really because of the spitfire, heroes or stuff like that but it just isnt going anywhere, it does get odder each set and everyone at my store would rather have be playing FoW or something else.

I think I may leave AAM too. It's not because of the rules or the minis or the price or the quality but it's because of the negitive players and I only have 1 person to play with. I guess I'll start playing Memoir '44 cause I just got it today...

[Muenchausen]

I preordered five cases. I'm not going to cancel my order and I'm not going to post AAM Junkie in my signature. I'm a little disappointed with the spitz-fire. Sure looks look the same model to me. I'm also not to happy with the ovesized Hellcat or the undersized M3. I've never posted this before but I don't like the AAM maps. But I do have two copies of each basic map and the other 14 maps they released. I downloaded them and had Kinko's print them for me. I've considered enlarging Squad Leader maps and using those. I'm also eye balling maps that another guy posted. When he has them ready I'll make my descision wheater to switch or not. My point is this. I like this game. If I didn't, I wouldn't buy it. I don't think complaining will accomplish anything. I was shocked when WOTC posted the ERRATA for the set III release. I honestly didn't expect anything to happen. But that was rule changes. Which was done over the internet. It may have cost some dollars in man hours to produce the Errata but, nothing compared to what it would cost to correct a production mistake. I don't know why WOTC keeps making these kind of mistakes. You'd think something would have been done about it by now but, each set has it's production errors. I wonder what problems set IV will have. I thought we were promised a resized version of the Hellcat last year, or that was my perception any way.

Kriegshund. I don't know if you care more for the game than I. I don't think using the standard of who displays the loudest discontent is an accurate way of determining who cares more for the game. I agree, you have a right to be upset because no one has the right to tell you or anyone else to be quiet and not express your opinion. I don't think the game will be ruined by you or anyone else airing your complaints. I don't want to see this digress into the "whinners vs fanbois" split that occured over set III. Because that may not affect the game but it definately affects this board. As far as the monkey analogy, I know your more articulate than that. Someday, maybe we can sit across the table and wage a little war.

[Type-A]

In many, many ways the people who display the loudest discontent are the ones who care most about the game. They are passionate about it, don't want to see things that injure it's potential.
The simple fact is that people who are passionate about their input when something is obviously wrong at least have the possibility to affect change....

Kool-Aid drinkers will never change a thing for the positive.

Complainers always represent more than themselves, because many will just move on without a word.

This forum is a valuable asset to the game and if everyone just said how great the game was without pointing out critical mistakes, then it wouldn't be a forum worth reading.

There is honest passion here. I would be willing to bet that if the debate hadn't been so intense, that such responses as we got from Bob & Mons would NOT have been forthcoming.

I like what DocD said, he doesn’t have the problem with the issue others have but he understands why others might and seems more than willing to let it ride out.

I will still buy the pieces I need and then hire Panzerpainter to make them look ten-times better

[ArmyVet]

Type-A - I have to agree with you in some parts. I won't stop playing or collecting A&AM's because of what other people think. I enjoy the game and the pieces.

You know that old saying, "Opinions are like a*******, everyone has one!"

[Kriegshund]

Kriegshund. I don't know if you care more for the game than I. I don't think using the standard of who displays the loudest discontent is an accurate way of determining who cares more for the game. I agree, you have a right to be upset because no one has the right to tell you or anyone else to be quiet and not express your opinion. I don't think the game will be ruined by you or anyone else airing your complaints. I don't want to see this digress into the "whinners vs fanbois" split that occured over set III. Because that may not affect the game but it definately affects this board. As far as the monkey analogy, I know your more articulate than that. Someday, maybe we can sit across the table and wage a little war.

Wow, an intelligent, cohesive response....what a concept.

Muenchausen, I am sorry I did not mean to absolutely infer that I cared for the game more than others, or that those who are loudest in their discontent definately do. I did mean to offer it as a possibility, and partial explanation for it though. I may have to disappoint you with the monkey analogy however, as it is all that comes to mind when I think of those that just as loudly demand our silence. I see those monkies covering their ears, eyes, and mouth. Perhaps I am not so articulate....

You said that you don't think the complaining will accomplish anything, but then expressed surprise about the Errata published for Set III. I believe that the complaints about vague and unclear rules that dominated these boards for a while had an impact in that being done.

I really wanted to hear more from WotC Bob and Mons about this issue, and I just didnt get it. Bob gives us a *sigh* and sorry we don't plan to fix it. Mons then comes with the EXACT same spiel he gave us with the Hellcat issue that just seemed to fade away. Mons actually told us that "most" of the Hellcat minis had been corrected and were shipping, then goes on to say it was an isolated incident and shouldn't happen again. It has happened to some degree or another several times since! How can I take his word now that they are making some distant plans to perhaps replace the Spitfire? How can I take their word that these issues won't repeat themselves over and over? How could they not have been more sensitive to these things occuring after the uproar about the Hellcat and 3" Gun? How could they have been so careless about an iconic minature that they touted as a "fan requested favorite"?

My only recourse is to withhold my patronage, and make very certain that they understand that. They also need to know that I am just one poster on their forum but I represent a statistic of thousands of customers just like me, and am also representative of my local group of gamers. It becomes exponential.

Thank you for your level headed response. Much appreciated.....

[Kriegshund]

The simple fact is that people who are passionate about their input when something is obviously wrong at least have the possibility to affect change....


Type-A, you said it better than I ever could have. Good post and well said...

[Ewokhunter92]

For the record I was not saying shut up, I am basically saying that WotC cannot really do anything regarding the boards.

Sure, the PR people can come here and try to do damage control by saying they will lok into it, but the people above them, the ones with the money, will tell them, big deal, ship them anyways. If sales start dropping, they will drop the line and move onto another game.

This is like investors portfolio, if a stock goes down, you sell and find another. It's also like a hobby, if the interest drops, move onto something else hot.

However, posting on an internet message board that you are quitting and selling your collection and going to a different game gets the blind eye treatment. If you already feel that way, they can't do anything to change your mind. What? you think they will personally send YOU a corrected version of said piece? not gonna happen.

Fact is, this board gives people an official place to talk about thier products, if they manage to squeeze some input and put it to use, then they will, however they can't always.

Until the majority of gamers stop or cut into the losses, they won't have a problem rehashing old molds. Is repainted an old sculpt a different color and calling something else good? no, but does it hurt the actual game mechanics? no. THAT is what they are looking at.

Regarding the hero unit, it is not broken, it is actually not very good, IMO. I just don't understand why people are so worked up about a unit that is limited in what it can do.

[mykoko]

I am sorry to see much of the discussion to be dangerously close (or even crossing the line) to flaming. I think my only problem with those upset is try to offer constructive criticism. I honestly don't know if WoTC actually pays attention to any of these posts, Am again spoiled by the high level of discussion on ATS board (which clearly listens to its board contributors). I think if the people upset could specifically elucidate their concerns, and those who love the game offer possible solutions in a civil manner, tempers wouldn't flare. I also believe those who take the time to write their complaints are actually hoping to have a reason to continue playing (just a gut reaction) Personally, I suppose what I have taken is a middle ground, where I have begun playing minis thanks to at least one brilliant innovation by WoTC-using hexes. I will not play a mini game withou them, and in fact the minis can be transferred to other boardgames with (larger than normal) hexes. Personally I am in process of making a whole slew of house rules that satisfy me as well as purchasing "regular" minis (yes I paint horribly). But using AAM as a template, I can create rules that make me perfectly content. other people have contributed and printed their house rules I often steal (er...I mean borrow), there are house rules to convert to ASL, and I believe HHR is making a noble effort to improve historical accuracy to the game. One poll indicated there is a huge disparity in the ages of players from pre-teen to people in their '60s. Now to please such a wide age group of people is no easy, and probably an impossible task. I have never played fantasy games and never will, but it also seems some of the ill will comes from fantasy gamers who are accostomed to different forms of play that does not work in a WWII game. The greatest sadness for me is the loss of the original Avalon Hill which published seminal WWII boardgames and really created the market for wargame playing, and now what is left of it is in the grip of a strictly game company. I am greatful that at least Hasbro has made an effort in some ways to repeat the best of the old Avakon Hill, and hope this game will inspire them to create more wargames. I admit my biggest gripe is this "collectible" approach and just sell the whole damn game at once (with possible occasional add ons) like boardgames are sold, but I assume there is a greater profit margin to do it the way they are. It is, however, a danger to Hasbro for those who truely get fed up and quit buying the new series. Anyway just my opinion, but PLEASE, be civil!

[Ewokhunter92]

I am sorry to see much of the discussion to be dangerously close (or even crossing the line) to flaming. I think my only problem with those upset is try to offer constructive criticism. I honestly don't know if WoTC actually pays attention to any of these posts, Am again spoiled by the high level of discussion on ATS board (which clearly listens to its board contributors). I think if the people upset could specifically elucidate their concerns, and those who love the game offer possible solutions in a civil manner, tempers wouldn't flare. I also believe those who take the time to write their complaints are actually hoping to have a reason to continue playing (just a gut reaction) Personally, I suppose what I have taken is a middle ground, where I have begun playing minis thanks to at least one brilliant innovation by WoTC-using hexes. I will not play a mini game withou them, and in fact the minis can be transferred to other boardgames with (larger than normal) hexes. Personally I am in process of making a whole slew of house rules that satisfy me as well as purchasing "regular" minis (yes I paint horribly). But using AAM as a template, I can create rules that make me perfectly content. other people have contributed and printed their house rules I often steal (er...I mean borrow), there are house rules to convert to ASL, and I believe HHR is making a noble effort to improve historical accuracy to the game. One poll indicated there is a huge disparity in the ages of players from pre-teen to people in their '60s. Now to please such a wide age group of people is no easy, and probably an impossible task. I have never played fantasy games and never will, but it also seems some of the ill will comes from fantasy gamers who are accostomed to different forms of play that does not work in a WWII game. The greatest sadness for me is the loss of the original Avalon Hill which published seminal WWII boardgames and really created the market for wargame playing, and now what is left of it is in the grip of a strictly game company. I am greatful that at least Hasbro has made an effort in some ways to repeat the best of the old Avakon Hill, and hope this game will inspire them to create more wargames. I admit my biggest gripe is this "collectible" approach and just sell the whole damn game at once (with possible occasional add ons) like boardgames are sold, but I assume there is a greater profit margin to do it the way they are. It is, however, a danger to Hasbro for those who truely get fed up and quit buying the new series. Anyway just my opinion, but PLEASE, be civil!

Please use paragraphs. Makes it easier to read and allows your posts, albiet well thought out, to get read. Some people just skip over large, single paragraphs.

Just a tip


...The more you know...dinga-ling aling.... :D

[horacus]

Well,I'm sad of seing people living the game. Seeing so many persons geting out, the Spitfire had make a terrible effect in this game. At last, i will buy and finish set 4. If after that there are some persons here, well I will continue the game.

Always hoping for the best.

Horacus.

[Bobsalt]

I wonder if we can reflect the feelings of the people on here to the rest of the players who do not go on the boards?
Around here that won’t be an issue – people around here have pretty much voted “no” to the game. Personally, I think the people on this board represent a good cross section of who is playing the game overall. I’m sure there will be some who will not mind the continual screw-ups by WotC at all, others will be in the middle, and others will be really ticked off by it.

You said that you don't think the complaining won't accomplish anything, but then expressed surprise about the Errata published for Set III. I believe that the complaints about vague and unclear rules that dominated these boards for a while had an impact in that being done.
Anybody think that errata would have happened without the firestorm those idiotic rules generated? SO far I’d say this issue with the “Messerschpit” dwarfs that. I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again. Complaining very well may not do any good at all. But not complaining certainly won’t, so it’s better to complain and make your voices heard.

I really wanted to hear more from WotC Bob and Mons about this issue, and I just didnt get it. Bob gives us a *sigh* and sorry we don't plan to fix it. Mons then comes with the EXACT same spiel he gave us with the Hellcat issue that just seemed to fade away. Mons actually told us that "most" of the Hellcat minis had been corrected and were shipping, then goes on to say it was an isolated incident and would not shouldn't happen again. It has happened to some degree or another several times since How can I take his word now that they are making some distant plans to perhaps replace the Spitfire? How can I take their word that these issues won't repeat themselves over and over. How could they not have been more sensitive to these things occuring after the uproar about the Hellcat and 3" Gun? How could they have been so careless about an iconic minature that they touted as a "fan requested favorite".
The whole fiasco with the Hellcat is why I really don’t expect to see anything done about this. We were given assurances at that time that the problem has been identified, and would not be repeated. Yet we have seen this same problem of poor quality with Sets II, III, and now Set IV. As much as I like Bob and Mons personally from their presence on the board, I have to say that I also don’t really believe what they say when it comes to quality. Poor quality has been an ongoing issue for sometime now, with the “Messerschpit” showing that there is apparently no end in sight. Mons spoke pretty forcefully about the Hellcat being an isolated incident that wouldn’t be repeated. Great words, but they proved to be meaningless when this same problem has now recurred several times over. My guess is that we will never see a correct Spitfire in this game. Going back and remaking a miniature, while it would be a great PR move, is unlikely for two reason: one, the simple cost of it and having to produce it essentially for free to replace the wrong ones, and two, it would set a precedent. Once you replace one poor, out of scale, or simply wrong sculpt with a correct one, you sort of open a Pandora’s box – if you replace one, you then are going to be pressured to fix all of the screw-ups. For these reasons I am extremely pessimistic that we will see a true Spitfire.

[Lotus]

....Once you replace one poor, out of scale, or simply wrong sculpt with a correct one, you sort of open a Pandora’s box – if you replace one, you then are going to be pressured to fix all of the screw-ups. For these reasons I am extremely pessimistic that we will see a true Spitfire.

I like a more positive approach. Since it's the Chinese manufacturer's fault, and they're having to reprint it, so the story goes, this will pressure them to make less mistakes from here on in. Maybe WoTC, seeing the writing on the wall, is going to do the right thing this time, especially if a reprint doesn't cost them anything. Where I work, if the printer screws up, they reprint, or pay.

Here's hoping...and watching them like hawks. I won't forget in 6 months.

[Bobsalt]

A very good and well thought-out post Mykoko. I hope everyone will remember to be civil to one another, regardless of where you are on the issue.

I'm really sorry this whole issue happened. I really wanted to believe that this game was going to prosper. After seeing what they dumped on us with Set III, though, I can honestly say I'm not particularly surprised by this fiasco. I fully expected there to be at least one major screw-up in Set IV, just as there was in each of the other sets. It's just a shame that instead of screwing up the scale on an obscure unit that no one ever uses, like the Type 87 armored car it had to be on one of the most easily recognizable aircraft of WWII, and a piece that people almost literally couldn't wait to get their hands on. Unfortunately, with all of the quality control issues they've had it was only a matter of time before they screwed up a major piece.

I will still play the game - at least, for awhile, but I am through buying cases or boosters until and unless WotC gets their act together. I will go strictly to the secondary market and buy just what I want. I guess you could even say that in the long run this is even a better way to go - no more being stuck with 7 Ka-Mi's that I will never use. And if eniough of us quit buying, and as a result the game goes under? Well, I'd rather see the game go under than to continue to buy "detailed and historically accurate" miniatures that are neither.

[Stojakovic]

Around here that won’t be an issue – people around here have pretty much voted “no” to the game. Personally, I think the people on this board represent a good cross section of who is playing the game overall. I’m sure there will be some who will not mind the continual screw-ups by WotC at all, others will be in the middle, and others will be really ticked off by it.




Well at least there are a lot of people who play the game here. I mean a lot.

[HerrPanzer]

There is always the Flams of war mini's

[horacus]

Well, there is always D&D minis, Magic the Gathering and other games that have proved to be worthi to play.

[Sherman951]

Every time a new set comes u guys whine and whine over the smallest thing! If u don't like it then don't buy it!

True.

I'm not saying that the complaints aren't justified... but people should call the company with their complaints, I'm sure there's some way. With the message board, I feel the effect is somewhat diluted. Plus people that don't care how others feel about the game have to wade through all the bs... most people don't wanna hear it.

[Kriegshund]

Plus people that don't care how others feel about the game have to wade through all the bs... most people don't wanna hear it.


I invite "most people" to please feel free to not read any threads or posts they aren't interested in.....

[Patton 68]

I'm caught in the middle of all this,and I don't like it.I always say if you stand in the middle of the road long enough,you'll get hit by a truck.So here I am dodging trucks.I'll just throw a civil 2 cents in...

I've war/fantasy gamed off and on for about 25yrs (I'm 38),but my real passion has always been model trains.The state of that hobby has advanced exponentially over those same 25yrs.It used to be you got Spitfire 109s all the time...the same body painted for a dozen railroads,some of which never even used that type of locomotive.The hobby has now become VERY specific detail oriented,almost overbearingly so.You should here complaints about the handrails being a scale inch or two off,or some boxcar having the wrong roof or end panels for what it claims to be.There is as much difference in prototype trains as there are between multiple Sherman variants and the Spitfire and 109.

I really feel the pain of those who bought in for accuracy.I really do.If I was told I'd be getting a specific locomotive...I'll say EMD F7 and got an Alco FA 1 (do a search for both and you'll see that like the Spit and 109,both have a generally similar appearance,but are clearly very different machines to a trained eye).I'd be livid,and certainly think twice about buying from that company again.

I don't begrudge anyone their opinion,nor their right to express it in these forums.I've said it before,I'll say it again: this is a HUGE step up from regular A&A where all the sculpts except infantry were just recolors.Revised A&A is much better but has its flaws too (like a Stuka posing as the German fighter).

This Spit/109 fracas is legit...WOTC definitely dropped the ball,but to play Devils advocate for a bit,someone there (or in the Chinese factory) must have some sort of sense...we have FOUR Sherman variants that are pretty accurate.If I was a factory owner looking to save on molds,I would just reuse my first Sherman mold four times over.Let's give these folks some credit for the things they've gotten RIGHT.

I'm not happy with the errors...I'm really not.The US 3mm gun (when I got my first one,I said aloud "Cool! A French 25mm ATG!") is a glaring mistake and the Spit/109 is outright insulting to any of us who has more than a passing knowledge of WW2.

The overall flavor of the game is good.It's light,quick and fun.Yes,it was billed as containing faithful and historical recreations.Faithfulness to accuracy is a great thing (especially when sold as such),but too much can kill a game or hobby.Takes the fun right out of it.

If we're all honest with ourselves,most of us in this game and in these forums are adults who never grew out of our plastic army men and GI Joes :) Speaking for me,this boils down to toys.I like army toys,and these are cool army toys,that obvious errors aside,look in most instances,like what they claim to be.That I can play a game with them and collect them like I used to collect sports cards (which came with bubble gum that had Superior Armor 5 )are just bonuses.That's good enough for me for now,and I honestly don't know my own breaking point for when WOTCs mistakes go too far and I stop buying.I just needed to chime in.CIVIL rebuttal,praise or PMs welcome.

[Sherman951]

I invite "most people" to please feel free to not read any threads or posts they aren't interested in.....

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, you tell them... :rolleyes:

[Uncle_Joe]

In many, many ways the people who display the loudest discontent are the ones who care most about the game. They are passionate about it, don't want to see things that injure it's potential. They have invested time and money, championed the game to their grognard friends who warned them, and now it's crumbling around their feet.

This is so incredibly true. True fans of the game care about the direction it is moving and will make it known if they believe it is moving in the wrong direction. Without that feedback, how else does the company know?

If someone doesnt care about the rules/minis/concepts being added thats great for them. Then they shouldnt care if others find fault with said items.

Telling people to like it or leave it is not the best plan if you want the game to succeed. When too many people leave without a word, the game dies and no one wins. Its up to the players to voice their concerns and give WotC a chance to make it right. If they do, they gain good will and good PR (as happened when they released the Errata). If they dont, the disgruntled people will leave anyways.

[Imperious leader]

Well whose POGs sure had a good run...Its the basic end of the line to all "collectible" games because people just wake up one day and say "Heck i just wasted 800.00 on friggin plastic that they made in many cases less of so i get to pay a higher price for those stupid "rare" plastic tanks... and i could have purchased more sensible things like a better car"

This process is repeated for you as soon as momma/nagging woman sees your room and tells you to grow up.

just a thought-

How bout that sarcasm?

[fifleche]

I think I may leave AAM too. It's not because of the rules or the minis or the price or the quality but it's because of the negitive players and I only have 1 person to play with. I guess I'll start playing Memoir '44 cause I just got it today...You know what? I work a FLGS. Basically, when buisness is slow, I am PAID to read "Gaming related web literature" :D And even then, I don't read all the posts. What's your excuse? (not meant as an attack. A rhetorical question.)

I haven't read/commented on the Hero thing yet. IMHO, until I get my greedy paws on the WHOLE rules I'll whithold judgement. But when I DID get my hands on the airplane rules, I whined. And whined. Got called names. And whined still. And got errata.

So, if, IMHO, the Hero rules need errata, guess what? I'll whine again.

But the good thing is that nobody is forcing you to read all my whining :)

[Sean-Khan]

Also for those who support buying Set 4 put "Team AAM Junkie" on your Signature in big bold red letters
Why? I'm not going to change my sig as my own even if I most probably will buy the Set 4 boosters I ordered. After that, I don't know. I might buy random boosters and trade non-plane rares for planes or c/uc. I like the game but I already have a lot of what I need for pleasant gaming. A few more planes and bunch of c/uc to have some variety - I don't have such a huge need of collecting in this game as in some others.

I plan to buy some D-day even if I'd have a really good reason to cancel the order. A chance of getting Spitfire made me do a preorder, and now I feel somewhat betrayed. I wanted a miniature of Spitfire, not a plane that's called "Spitfire" even if it doesn't look like it.

[djensen47]

I enjoy the game. I'll keeping playing and I'll keep promoting it.

[Argyle]

you also aren't paying $15 for a booster and they aren't advertised as all being unique models.

Outside norh america you DO pay more than $15 for a booster. I want quality for my money, get a playable game, and have people to play against(people will quit because of this set if "they" don´t fix this).

If a customer buy a product in the US does he/she then decline all rights to complain on the products?

[Sean-Khan]

Outside norh america you DO pay more than $15 for a booster. I want quality for my money, get a playable game, and have people to play against(people will quit because of this set if "they" don´t fix this).

Well said. I was able to get a bunch of CS boosters for $15,5, which was really cheap here. Before I could get those, I got a chance to buy one at normal cost - paid quite about $19,5 for it.

[Frogslayer]

You know what? I work a FLGS. Basically, when buisness is slow, I am PAID to read "Gaming related web literature" :D And even then, I don't read all the posts. What's your excuse? (not meant as an attack. A rhetorical question.)

I haven't read/commented on the Hero thing yet. IMHO, until I get my greedy paws on the WHOLE rules I'll whithold judgement. But when I DID get my hands on the airplane rules, I whined. And whined. Got called names. And whined still. And got errata.

So, if, IMHO, the Hero rules need errata, guess what? I'll whine again.

But the good thing is that nobody is forcing you to read all my whining :)

Well spoken.

IMO, thrue fans "whine" to make the game better, because they care.

Fanatics blindly accept everything.

[Richter von Manthofen]

I will not abandon this game (now).

As long I have fun, I will stay.

10% crap is not too bad.

[Dr_Strangelove]

I've thought it over. I'm sticking with this game. I can accept that some of it won't be perfect but it is still a better game for me than most others. I'll put a little faith in WotC. I won't focus on the 10% that is messed up inspite of the 90% that is good.

I'm ordering three cases of Set IV today.

[Muenchausen]

Anybody think that errata would have happened without the firestorm those idiotic rules generated? SO far I’d say this issue with the “Messerschpit” dwarfs that. I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again. Complaining very well may not do any good at all. But not complaining certainly won’t, so it’s better to complain and make your voices heard.

The whole fiasco with the Hellcat is why I really don’t expect to see anything done about this. We were given assurances at that time that the problem has been identified, and would not be repeated. Yet we have seen this same problem of poor quality with Sets II, III, and now Set IV.

All I was saying was that I didn't expect anything to change with set three and then was completely shocked to see the errata. All you folks who aired your grievances were responsible for that happening. I'm not trying to steal your thunder on this issue and I did learn something. Bobsalt, your absolutly right.

The point I was trying to make was, it was a lot easier and less expensive for WOTC to publish the errata than to go back and fix production mistakes. So therefor, I don't expect to see a corrected Hellcat, M3, Spitfire or anything else that is screwed up. But if you guys can get them to keep the promises made early on in the game, more power to you.

For all you who intelligently aire your complaints, thank you. For those of you who want to flame. All you'll accomplish is getting the thread shut down and then no one will hear what anyone has said.

[Xzuatl]

I think that I am like a lot of people, I will not totally abandon the game all together but I will not fully support it any more either. Let me explain: I was buying 2 full cases even though I really only wanted German and French units. I didn't mind having all the others nationalities; and I didn't mind the aircraft even though I traded them all away.

But now, I will not be buying cases, just purchasing the individual units I need. So the effect of poor QC is that WoTC will not be making as much money from me as it had. If this is ok with them, it's fine with me too. I intend to keep playing this game regardless of what WoTC does, but I will not be playing any new games from them, including War At Sea.

[Bobsalt]

All I was saying was that I didn't expect anything to change with set three and then was completely shocked to see the errata. All you folks who aired your grievances were responsible for that happening. I'm not trying to steal your thunder on this issue and I did learn something. Bobsalt, your absolutly right.

The point I was trying to make was, it was a lot easier and less expensive for WOTC to publish the errata than to go back and fix production mistakes. So therefor, I don't expect to see a corrected Hellcat, M3, Spitfire or anything else that is screwed up. But if you guys can get them to keep the promises made early on in the game, more power to you.

For all you who intelligently aire your complaints, thank you. For those of you who want to flame. All you'll accomplish is getting the thread shut down and then no one will hear what anyone has said.

The thing that amazes me on the errata for Set III was that they were able to produce it so quickly. They spent – what, a few days? – looking at the outrage and were able to very quickly produce rules fixes that, while still not great, were quite an improvement over what they initially released. It’s things like that that make me wonder just how much thought WotC puts into the game in regard to how it functions as a game, and not just looking at it as a product to be sold. The complaints on the initial Set III rules began to be aired with 5 minutes of their release on the A&AM homepage. How is it possible for WotC to claim that they do careful playtesting, or any playtesting at all for that matter, and then release crap like that?

At any rate, yes, all of the complaints made them scramble, and they released errata that took unrealistic and unplayable rules and made them into being only unrealistic rules. You take what you can get. But I think you’re completely correct about the difference between a rules fix and producing a corrected miniature. Rules fixes can be done easily enough – if nothing else, just see what suggestions are posted here and then take them, organize them, and post it as an errata sheet on the internet. Not a big deal. But to release a new miniature is something else again. And this is where I’m not exactly ready to believe that such a thing will ever happen.

Mons said that this could take 6 months or more to correct. I’m not sure I understand why. I realize that the sets are produced in advance, and while we’re all discussing Set IV, the factory is probably in the process of producing and packaging Set VI or VII for shipment to WotC. This would make adding the corrected Spitfire to any of these sets very expensive – you’d have to reprint everything that listed the units in the set, you’d have to repackage what you’d already done, etc. This would be cost prohibitive to do, and isn’t really a viable option even if they wanted to do it. However, I don’t understand why a correct Spitfire couldn’t be produced and be available as a mail-in exchange, and also get more of them out into the market by making them into Combat Zone pieces. The mold to produce the correct piece should already be made, the test castings should already be at WotC so that the correctness of the model can be verified, and the instructions for detailing and decals should already be complete – all they need to do is to give the go-ahead to do this and it could probably be turned around in 30-60 days. Unless, of course, no mold exists because no Spitfire mold was ever produced. And this is where I have considerable doubts in my mind.

Every piece produced for A&AM so far has required a unique mold. 138 separate units = 138 separate molds. The one exception I can think of is the Pz IVF2 and the Pz IVD, which have hulls that are identical, although they have different printing on the underside. This can mean a totally different mold for the hull, or a shared partial mold, depending on the type of process used by the factory. However, the Spitfire, if it is like the other aircraft, would be a single-cast piece – probably from a clam shell injection type mold. This means that with a 45-unit set, there should have been 45 molds.

Now, if as many have said, the first 4 sets were all produced at the same time, the factory was producing 183 different pieces at roughly the same time. If this is the case, someone should have been checking off on the production of each piece and caught the fact that either the number of molds didn’t equal the number of different miniatures to be produced or that they had a mold that for some reason wasn’t being used. If nothing else, someone should have caught the fact that the same miniature was being painted in two different ways and this exact same piece was being labeled as two different pieces altogether. Even if all of these didn’t happen, WotC should have caught this when they realized the number of molds didn’t equal the number of pieces to be produced, or when they examined and signed off on each of the molds, or when they examined and approved each of the test castings. These are all very basic things that are done by companies that are in the business of selling goods produced by contracted manufacturers.

The bottom line to all of this is that if WotC was playing straight with us and did even the most cursory job of checking on the work they were paying someone else to do, somewhere there is a Spitfire mold. There should also be test castings of Spitfires as well, though it’s not impossible that they didn’t request any test castings. Incompetent, yes. But not impossible – although the photo we saw earlier of the “Dug-in MG” suggests that WotC is indeed receiving test castings. Posting photos of one of the test castings would go a long way toward beginning to rebuild some trust, since that would show there really was a Spitfire mold. If there is no test casting, then it would still be easy enough to photograph the mold and then post photo here as proof that they weren’t trying to pull a fast one, be it WotC or HFE.

Until I see such proof, I will not believe that a Spitfire mold was ever produced. Whether that was due to incompetence or the belief by someone somewhere that we wouldn’t notice (or yet another reason I haven’t thought of) I’ll leave to others to decide. Part of my reason for believing this is due to what Mons said about any fix taking at least 6 months to fix. As I said earlier, if a correct Spitfire mold exists, a replacement should be able to be produced and be ready for distribution on at least a customer mail-in exchange basis within 60 days if WotC really wants to do it. The 6 month time frame Mons mentions only makes sense if a new mold has to be made before such production can be made (although he is quite correct when he says that a new Spitfire couldn’t be included in regular boosters for at least 6 months).

Even if WotC produces a real Spitfire, I don’t expect to see it before this time next year, based on what we’ve seen with the Hellcat. It’s been 8 months since we were told that fixes were in place for the Hellcat and steps were underway to replace or reissue it, and so far we have seen nothing. This suggests to me that we aren’t going to see a replacement for the Hellcat. Now, the fact that the Spitfire is such a well-known piece (iconic, as some have put it) might mean that it will indeed be produced, whereas a lesser-known piece such as the Hellcat (which, not being an armor expert, I don’t believe I ever heard of until I saw it in A&AM) will not be. Another factor to consider is that once they replace one unit, they kind of open up a Pandora’s Box to replacing all of the other incorrect pieces. I think some amount of variation in scale is unavoidable (though other manufacturers seem to be able to avoid it) and they shouldn’t redo every wrong piece, though I think the Hellcat and the US 3” gun are bad enough to warrant replacement. Frankly, though, I just don’t think they’re going to go there (although I think it would do wonders for their PR if they did/do).

To conclude this, let me say that I apologize if this post seems overly negative. I have tried to approach this from a detached point of view, but the subject matter itself makes it difficult to prevent a certain amount of negativity from creeping in. I also want it to be clear that I don’t think Mons is lying to us in anything he says about all of this. I think he’s repeating what those above him are telling him, and I have to say that so far WotC as a company hasn’t exactly impressed me with their business ethics. As an R&D guy, he knows what things are supposed to look like. Unfortunately, there are other people who have the final say on that, which is how we wind up with the Messerschpit.

[Ewokhunter92]

That's another thing I wanted to mention, but forgot.

A few people are referring to replacing existing screw ups an "Opening of Pandora's Box" well, Honestly, if WotC would in fact do it right the first time from here on in, there would be no "pandora's Box" to open as there will be no mess ups such as this.

Rules erratas are aone thing that can be typed and printed out, a sculpt mess up is another thing.

Of course, if WotC wanted to, they could make a new expansion called "Pandora's Box" and put all the screw ups in it. the we ALL could open it. :)

[horacus]

Well, let's see wath happens. I will buy only singles(has alwas), because the complete set worth 140dls, so, it is less expensive than 2 cases. After that, I will only buy singles that I nedd to have 2 or 3 of them, only wastign something like 180dls, less than 2 cases.

[Bobsalt]

That's another thing I wanted to mention, but forgot.

A few people are referring to replacing existing screw ups an "Opening of Pandora's Box" well, Honestly, if WotC would in fact do it right the first time from here on in, there would be no "pandora's Box" to open as there will be no mess ups such as this.
That would be nice, wouldn't it? And that's the reason for my being so vocal about this. WotC REPEATEDLY advertised their miniatures for this game as being "detailed and historically accurate." Their quote, not mine. So far more than a few of them have been neither.

Rules erratas are aone thing that can be typed and printed out, a sculpt mess up is another thing.
Exactly why I seriously doubt we will ever see any of the screw-ups ever addressed.

Of course, if WotC wanted to, they could make a new expansion called "Pandora's Box" and put all the screw ups in it. the we ALL could open it. :)
Good one - THAT'S funny! Thanks Ewok - that might be the first laugh I've gotten out of this whole thing yet. :D

On the other hand, it kind of says something about the quality of the miniatures when you consider that there HAVE BEEN enough screw-ups to even be able to joke about a set that contains nothing but reprints... :mad:

Oh well, I guess I'll just have to break out my Mega Axis & Allies game. 8 foot map, French and Italian units, paratroopers, AT guns, light, medium and heavy armor, etc. Yes, it takes awhile to play - but BOY is it fun. :D

[Muenchausen]

Bobsalt, By no means is your post negative or inflamatory. I think you precisely hit the nail on the head.

I don't think WOTC will make the descision to produce corrected miniatures because of the cost involved. They obviously would have to have new molds created for the Hellcat and the M3. And IMO the Spitfire because I believe the contractor may have pulled a fast one on them. I may be naive but I don't think WOTC would be foolish enough to make a descision to repaint a miniature in hopes of fooling us.

If WOTC made the descision to reproduce corrected miniatures they would have to sell them to us to off set their cost or exchange them with us which would definately eat into their profits. If they did attempt to sell them to us the uproar would be overwhelming.

The other problem is, how to exchange them. This board probably doesn't reach one percent of the buying public. They could put a flyer inside the boosters of a set but as you said, set IV is already produced. Set V is at the end of its production run and they're probably gearing up for set VI. That just my uneducated guess. So the word wouldn't get out for another 6-9 months. Who knows how many more production errors we will get in the mean time.

The last problem is an exchange program. Postage costs money. You could send one or two miniatures in one of those small padded envelopes for $.63 postage plus $.15 for the envelope. But then you run the risk of it getting crushed in the mail. If you put it in a small box, The price for postage and the box increases. That also doesn't include the price for producing shipping labels and hireing of temporary workers to handle the influx of products being returned.

Now, I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see WOTC making any effort to fix the broken miniatures. Its a lose, lose situation for them.

[CrazyStraw]

I just thought this thread needed a soundtrack:
http://www.intervos.com/archive/midi/Jazz/CloseToYou.mid

[polish_horsy]

If they made a "fix" box for $X which contained no cards but had the following minis:

Spitfire
Hellcat
3" gun
type 87 car

I'd consider buying it at a fair price. It would have to be low to be fair to us. And since it would not have cards it would not be of as much value to those folks who don't own the "bad" goods. Then we can keep the bastard units and not have to pay shipping.

[Kriegshund]

Its just difficult in principal for me to pay again for items I have already payed for.....

[Cruizin2000]

I think that it would be in Wizards best interest, and a great career move, to re-cast the Hellcat, Spitfire, US 3" gun, Flak 38, and maybe the McCheese Mobile. Word of mouth is the BEST advertisement and with all of the folks on this forum, and the people they meet in game stores that they'll tell what they know about what's going on with the game and how Wizards handles things, will have a BIG impact on Wizards sales.

Imagine if, somehow, people formed large groups and went to the various CONS around the country and let the visitors know about the foul ups that goes on and how Wizards responds to things. Eventually something will happen.

21st Century Toys had "weird" looking models of, for instance, the 1/32 Mustang, until Roy Sutherland joined their ranks. This guy is an expert modler and a WWII buff. He's put ALOT of detail into their new products. The Macchi 202 even has a wing that is 1/4" smaller than the other - just like the real thing.

Maybe Wizards needs to find a Roy Sutherland to help them out????

C2000

[Ewokhunter92]

I think that it would be in Wizards best interest, and a great career move, to re-cast the Hellcat, Spitfire, US 3" gun, Flak 38, and maybe the McCheese Mobile. Word of mouth is the BEST advertisement and with all of the folks on this forum, and the people they meet in game stores that they'll tell what they know about what's going on with the game and how Wizards handles things, will have a BIG impact on Wizards sales.

Imagine if, somehow, people formed large groups and went to the various CONS around the country and let the visitors know about the foul ups that goes on and how Wizards responds to things. Eventually something will happen.

21st Century Toys had "weird" looking models of, for instance, the 1/32 Mustang, until Roy Sutherland joined their ranks. This guy is an expert modler and a WWII buff. He's put ALOT of detail into their new products. The Macchi 202 even has a wing that is 1/4" smaller than the other - just like the real thing.

Maybe Wizards needs to find a Roy Sutherland to help them out????

C2000


I have 8 of the 1/32 planes hangin on my wall right now. They do look good and yes, WotC needs someone who cares about the product as much as the customers.

[DocD]

As always Bob, a very good talking point. I would hate to see this game go belly up. I've been playing it more than ASL or Heroclix combined lately. Let's just hope the people in charge are listening.

[horacus]

Yes, hope is the only thing that remains after the storm.

PLEASE LISTEN¡¡¡¡¡¡¡

[GrimJesta]

Unless, of course, no mold exists because no Spitfire mold was ever produced. And this is where I have considerable doubts in my mind.

Um. Damn. OK, I'm sold. That's a fine point.

-=Grim=-

[Cruizin2000]

Hey Ewokhunter, do you have any of the armor or figure sets? I just had UPS deliver 4 sets of Japanese and 4 sets of Russians to my door - and I'm at work!!!!

I have all of the armor from day one - Tiger Is, Shermans, Pnzr IIIs, etc. I love these things. I use them to game with and have platoons of each model - baring the flakpanzers and mobelwagens. I also have 4 of each figure set.

C2000

[Irish]

Well at least there are a lot of people who play the game here. I mean a lot.

I wish I could say that, but the only other people I can find to play the game are my two sons, age 10 and 16, and to be quite frank they seem to be tiring of it, primarily because if you want to be "competitive" one has to use the same units over and over again (sometimes there's a little "new released unit" creep) but for the most part the same old units are used.
I also think that they've been disapointed by the aircraft, too exspensive and too fragile.

[horacus]

Here we are somthing like 20 players in total.

[Ewokhunter92]

Hey Ewokhunter, do you have any of the armor or figure sets? I just had UPS deliver 4 sets of Japanese and 4 sets of Russians to my door - and I'm at work!!!!

I have all of the armor from day one - Tiger Is, Shermans, Pnzr IIIs, etc. I love these things. I use them to game with and have platoons of each model - baring the flakpanzers and mobelwagens. I also have 4 of each figure set.

C2000

Actually, I just restarted collecting the 1/32 and haven't had much luck at retail. With the esception of planes that is.

I am local with SmallJoes.com and am planning on picking up armor that I REALLY want.

[Cruizin2000]

Badcat has the new figs as well as the other goodies by 21st. I guess they're down the road from them. How are the Zeros? I still need to get one.

C2000

[Irish]

For those of you who think that corrected minis will be "released", I'm afraid that you're confused. Its Wizards of the Coast, not The Wizard of Oz. "Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore......" :)

[Ewokhunter92]

Badcat has the new figs as well as the other goodies by 21st. I guess they're down the road from them. How are the Zeros? I still need to get one.

C2000

I have both the Pearl harbor and the islands one. They are quite nice. I also have the German Macci and the detail is awesome since they added wing guns that the Italian one doesn't have.

[Ewokhunter92]

Also, thanks for the heads up on bad cat. They seem to have lots of good stuff there. Been trying to find a decent site other than smalljoes.

[Cennedi]

I agree completly with easy eight. I think ppl just need to quit whining about the game. If you don't like it quit or be quiet. I think we are just lucky to have the Spitfire. Otherwise the British could just be without a fighter.

except for the fact that you dont have a spitfire. you have a me109.

[horacus]

Yes, but the stats are much better that those of the messerchmith 109. So quit or be quiet. It has been said that for december we will se the correct miniature of the spirfire.

[Ewokhunter92]

It has been said that for december we will se the correct miniature of the spirfire.

Where has this been posted? Haven't seen it

[simonr1978]

It has been said that for december we will se the correct miniature of the spirfire.

No it hasn't at all, it has been said that it will probably take at least 6 months to sort out:

Since HFE gave us the wrong model, we are getting a new, correct, model done and we are discussing ways to get the correct Spitfire into print, but understand that this is long process, typically 6 months or more.

Quoted from the appropriate thread.

[Irish]

Yes, but the stats are much better that those of the messerchmith 109. So quit or be quiet. It has been said that for december we will se the correct miniature of the spirfire.
So who made you King of the AAM boards? Birthday tomorrow huh, so let me guess, by how you deal with others so maturely, I'm guessing you're turning what 12?

[xlcor]

The noob speaks... :)
My fundamental problem is this:

I really enjoy tabletop wargames, and this game is no exception (original rule set, errata and all - I have been heavily collecting since Set 1). The problem is that this is also a collectible game, where, unlike other tabletop wargames such as GW Warhammer Fantasy or 40K, each mini has a monetary value to collectors (like stamps, coins, comics etc.).

WoTC gets to arbitrarily determine each mini's rarity, which then determine's its relative value and ultimately its individual market price. Really cool units (like T-34s, Tigers, P-51s and SS-PGs etc.) become really expensive units, and when those units are realistically common (eg. T-34s) but artificially expensive, we should definitely expect quality of product.

As I really enjoy playing the game, I am forced to pay ridiculous amounts of money for multiple T-34/76 and T-34/85 tanks, but as their sculpts are good, I don't mind as much. Conversely, as I was really looking forward to the Spitfire, and could very easily see myself needing many (eg. scenarios recreating the Battle of Britain etc.), I am disgusted that I'm going to have to spend $10-15 per Spitfire for a totally subpar mini.

I guess my point is that if A&AMinis was simply a tabletop wargame without the collectable aspect, the spitfire 109 issue wouldn't bother me in the slightest, but being that I am also a collector, I feel completely duped by WoTC... my 2 cents.

[Kriegshund]

So quit or be quiet. It has been said that for december we will se the correct miniature of the spirfire.

Here we go again, he doesn't like your opinion so you either have to "quit" or "be quiet".

Also, Mons said they are going to "discuss" ways to get it into print and that it would take "6 months or more". That is so many degrees away from that actually happening, and it is the same so called "promise" they made for the Hellcat that NEVER happened. Oh to be young and innocent again.....

[horacus]

Irish:

Ok, it was only a sugestion. And why the agression again. you know, you are begining to be wath you have citiqued about now at the "Official post about spitfire/109". So, I'm asking it in a good way: don't more agresions please.

[horacus]

And, I really belive that WotC will listen your mofs about the Spitfire. So, please no more agresive coments please. i hope that you understand, and, yes it is my birthday, so more respect please, and I'm going to be 16.

[Kriegshund]

Irish:

Ok, it was only a sugestion. And why the agression again. you know, you are begining to be wath you have citiqued about now at the "Official post about spitfire/109". So, I'm asking it in a good way: don't more agresions please.

And telling people to "quit or be quiet" because you don't like what they have to say is not aggresive or just plain flat out rude in your opinion?

[horacus]

Kriegshund: go to hell.

[Stojakovic]

I wish I could say that, but the only other people I can find to play the game are my two sons, age 10 and 16, and to be quite frank they seem to be tiring of it, primarily because if you want to be "competitive" one has to use the same units over and over again (sometimes there's a little "new released unit" creep) but for the most part the same old units are used.
I also think that they've been disapointed by the aircraft, too exspensive and too fragile.

That sux. I felt the same way back in CA when only 2 other people played magic. Everyone else played soccer or video games

[horacus]

I was tring to begin a good respectuous conversation, I asked apologises before. And, wath, I see again that from the same persons.....
Slow compreinson I wish, or only they haven't read it. I hope that i won't here no more criticism or agression please.

Thanks, and for the persons that are a little slow: T H A N K S.

[Kriegshund]

Kriegshund: go to hell.


Classy and mature. Your true colors show....don't worry though we can just paint over them with RAF colors and call you a Spitfire and all is well....

Where is that block poster button again? Ahh there it is....
<click>....

[horacus]

Yes, I have a lot of class, I already knew Kriegshund.

So, send me a postcard later please.

[Kriegshund]

I was tring to begin a good respectuous conversation, I asked apologises before.

How exactly were you trying to start a good respectful conversation by telling someone to "quit or be quiet"?

Ooops my button didn't work ..<click>..<click>..<click>..<click>

[Lotus]

Hey, picture yourselves across a table from each other. Hurling crap at each other? Nope. Most likely playing the game we love.

Take a breath guys. You're both entitled to your opinions. I've read you both on other days. Different from this.

Let's clean the slate and allow WoTC some time. Periodically we will hound them.

Shake hands across the internet and then we move on.

Remember? We're the good guys? The righteous brotherhood of gaming?

[Stojakovic]

all I have to say here....

http://penguinfriends.ytmnd.com/

[Kriegshund]

How is it that I am told to go to Hell and/or told to be quiet or quit after asking legitimate questions...and still be lumped in with the crap throwers? I need to call Jonnie Cochran!! "If the crap don't fit, you must acquit!" ;)

[Irish]

Irish:

Ok, it was only a sugestion. And why the agression again. you know, you are begining to be wath you have citiqued about now at the "Official post about spitfire/109". So, I'm asking it in a good way: don't more agresions please.

???? I honestly don't know what you're trying to say here, so I'm gonna chalk your "apparent" surliness to a language/cultural barrier thing and leave it at that.

Hope you have a Happy 16th B-day.

[Lotus]

How is it that I am told to go to Hell and/or told to be quiet or quit...and still be lumped in with the crap throwing?

You want me to come out with a scorecard? Horacus was wrong. There it is.

Your reaction didn't make it better.

So what I'm saying is, end it. Someone has to be big, so let it be both sides. The argument goes past the two of you, but this is where the epicenter seems to be right now.

On the internet, fights are cheap, everybody's too defensive. No one's standing toe to toe. What's the point in making more of the kind of crap we all try so hard to forget?

Call me a S**Thead if any of you want. There's likely too many miles between us to prove a real point. Or...we can keep the level of respect what it should be.

Okay, Horacus? You too.

[Stojakovic]

You want me to come out with a scorecard? Horacus was wrong. There it is.

Your reaction didn't make it better.

So what I'm saying is, end it. Someone has to be big, so let it be both sides. The argument goes past the two of you, but this is where the epicenter seems to be right now.

On the internet, fights are cheap, everybody's too defensive. No one's standing toe to toe. What's the point in making more of the kind of crap we all try so hard to forget?

Call me a S**Thead if any of you want. There's likely too many miles between us to prove a real point. Or...we can keep the level of respect what it should be.

Okay, Horacus? You too.

I said somethin like that yesterday... did not work.

[Kommandant]

Lotus and Stojakovic,
just let them argue, eventually they will get tired
and move on with their lives :D

[Lotus]

Lotus and Stojakovic,
just let them argue, eventually they will get tired
and move on with their lives :D

OK...if I must.

BTW, I just checked your location. You must be invisible. If you're here, throw something or cough. I can have the map set up in minutes. :D

[Kommandant]

OK...if I must.

BTW, I just checked your location. You must be invisible. If you're here, throw something or cough. I can have the map set up in minutes. :D

dude, i would love to play against other people more often, other than my
gf and little brother

[Kriegshund]

I see how it works....I am the one with the crap all over me from having it flung upon me by those who have called me "whiner""jackass""shut up""go away""be quiet""just quit" when most of what I have done in return is simply defend my right to my opinion with occasional cutting sarcasm.

Someone comes in wondering why all the crap is getting thrown, and since the others have divested themselves of said crap by flinging it at me and are clean whereas I am covered in it, I am the bad guy...

I should have just took their advice and shut up and quit.....

[Lotus]

I see how it works....I am the one with the crap all over me from having it flung upon me by those who have called me "whiner""jackass""shut up""go away""be quiet""just quit" when most of what I have done in return is simply defend my right to my opinion with occasional cutting sarcasm.

Someone comes in wondering why all the crap is getting thrown, and since the others have divested themselves of said crap by flinging it at me and are clean whereas I am covered in it, I am the bad guy...

I should have just took their advice and shut up and quit.....

Never said that.

I actually am on your side. Read what I posted. The "cutting sarcasm" get's interpreted easily on the internet as insult. And I did say Horacus was wrong. He was. Could not believe he said something so cheap and rude. But he isn't usually like that.

People are different face to face, let's not forget. That's why most of us let it pass, like bad gas.

I defend your right to complain. I complain too. I just think this ain't the place to take it to the next step. Not worth it.

[Lotus extends hand]

[Irish]

Good call Lotus.
Say, your location says you're near Syracuse. How near? I was stationed at Griffiss AFB in the mid to late Eighties. I owned a home in Rome. My oldest was born there.

[Lotus]

Good call Lotus.
Say, your location says you're near Syracuse. How near? I was stationed at Griffiss AFB in the mid to late Eighties. I owned a home in Rome. My oldest was born there.

We're nearly neighbors. :D

I'm in Lafayette, 7-10 miles south of that great salt city...metropolis.

Hey, if you're near enough, I have an extra seat in the jeep down to Fatcats in Binghamton every other (or near) saturday.

We play big team games...1000-2500 pts on 3D terrain. Could always use a vet like yourself.

[Irish]

We're nearly neighbors. :D

I'm in Lafayette, 7-10 miles south of that great salt city...metropolis.

Hey, if you're near enough, I have an extra seat in the jeep down to Fatcats in Binghamton every other (or near) saturday.

We play big team games...1000-2500 pts on 3D terrain. Could always use a vet like yourself.
I'll keep that in mind, hopefully I'll have time to get the family up there again some time before I'm really an old man. Unfortunately, my oldest doesn't remember any of it, we moved out to Edwards AFB when he was only one year old.

[Moderator Mired]

:: Calls a time-out on this thread ::

The opening conversation had potential, but I'm watching very closely for the ugly back-and-forth. Keep it clean, everyone.

:: Game on! ::

-Mired

[horacus]

Well, I will go, eat my cake have a happy birthday :) and after get out of the forums.....
See you, maybie, later.....


PD: Lotus: Don't answer my message, it isn't necesair.

[Lotus]

Well, I will go, eat my cake have a happy birthday :) and after get out of the forums.....
See you, maybie, later.....


PD: Lotus: Don't answer my message, it isn't necesair.

Heh...too late, but no worry. It's all good.

Hey Mons: Great avatar! What an awesome series of books...with a rather weird ending.

[horacus]

Well, thanks, but I will take some rest about this.

[Kriegshund]

I wish you had left it locked Mod Mired. It was confrontational and snotty from the very first post (yes, including myself).

[Lotus]

I wish you had left it locked Mod Mired. It was confrontational and snotty from the very first post (yes, including myself).

Yeah, but it's cool now.

Sorry about the 'crap' analogy. Wasn't aimed at you specifically. Just at the whole thing.

So in the interest of keeping this thread righteous...

...what say we agree to post a reminder thread to WoTC at least once a month about the Messerspit?

[horacus]

I think that i will begin to play again Magic the Gathering, it has less problems, or maybie D&D minis. And I won't enter to the Magic or D&D forums, has I see, it's only problems at the end. Well, goodbie.

[Kriegshund]

...what say we agree to post a reminder thread to WoTC at least once a month about the Messerspit?

Nothing for you to apologise for Lotus. I understood exactly where you were coming from, was just trying to explain the method of my madness in response to your post. Your level headed responses won out...

On to your proposal.....

As much as I have been an advocate for making a racket in the case of the infamous Spitfire case, I think Mons came in the sticky thread, made his spiel, and we won't hear much more again no matter how we much keep tabs. By then we will have either payed or not payed for Set IV respectively, and WotC will have no real reason to replace it.

I am not trying to say Mons is a bad buy, we all know that he is not. But he is constrained by the company. The proposal he is making for the Spitfire is very similiar to the proposal he made for the Hellcat and that has simply faded away. I am not inclined to expect more from that precedent.

[horacus]

I reflect something like 30 minutes about my decision. I see that it was wrong and precipited :rolleyes: . I think i will be here for a while, so, let's begin from cero every bad begining.

Irish. Thans for wishing me to have a happy birthday. :)


Let's give WotC a few days to see an answer. If we have one, well, only hope will remain.

[horacus]

If we have no answer, well, let's hope that 44 of the 45 figures are good.

[Lotus]

Let's take them (WoTC) on their word, and remind them periodically that they put it in front of us.

It's the Spitfire, not a Hellcat, not a 3" gun. If it were a Tiger, well, I wouldn't want to be on the boards for that one. ;)

Horacus, glad you're sticking around.

Krieglund, thanks for the good word. :)

[Kriegshund]

Let's take them (WoTC) on their word, and remind them periodically that they put it in front of us.

It's the Spitfire, not a Hellcat, not a 3" gun. If it were a Tiger, well, I wouldn't want to be on the boards for that one. ;)

I don't think it's a bad idea, but we have already demonstrated that a new "Spitfire" thread will come up against a pretty severe backlash from the "anti-whiner" crowd, especially if it pops up intermittently after a lull in the thunder.

You might consider just keeping the sticky thread above current with new posts of inquiry, but we would have to rely on the mods to allow it to remain up there, even after periods of non-activity.

I would support a post or thread with my input, but I will have to abstain from actually starting one due to what has happened the last few days. I don't need any more infamy.

[Stojakovic]

Bring it up once a month. THen when it is crunch time (dec.) hammer it in.

[horacus]

Yes, a periodical remember will be good. Maybie that will make some solutions.


Kriegshund: Wath do you say? We begin our relationship from 0?
Belive me, I never wanted to send you to hell, only a bad moment of anger and stress(hate smemestral exams).

[Sean]

As I am a social misfit with an obscene amount of disposable income, my opinion is irrelevant. I've been collecting Magic cards for over a decade now. I keep buying them because I love the game. I didn't quit in the late 90's when all the art-work looked the same and the sets favored tournament play. I won't quit AAM as long as the complaints are about the molds and not game play. The only reason I make the comparison between AAM & Magic is because of my gaming history. I know we pay more for minis, but I can use almost all of them unlike with Magic cards. The factory in China has some major issues, but I have no real complaints about the game. I hope there will be less need for errata and more maps in the future.
I'm pre-ordering a case of set 4.

[NorthernRommel]

Well as an old person with no disposable income because some soulless corporation sends our jobs to India and China.......I do have issues with a company that is making ooodles of grotesque profits by selling us stuff that could most likely be made for the same price on American soil instead of by the use of Chinese slave labour. However.....

I am making my own maps, own rules, and doing things my own way because thats the way John Wayne (a fine Canadian) and old wargamer like me would have done it..... :rolleyes:

Hmmm.....on a brighter side note ....the minis are for the most part not bad albeit overpriced (if Cando can make a profit at their low prices then something is wrong with the WOTC picture). But until I see what is coming in Set 4 and see the new scupts, I am pre-ordering nutin. The industry is going for profit based power gaming that appeals to the control freaks -- which is sadly a very large audience. The rest of us are just along for the ride. :(

[Sean]

The industry is going for profit based power gaming that appeals to the control freaks -- which is sadly a very large audience. The rest of us are just along for the ride. :(
I can assure you I am just a regular freak, and not a control freak.

[NorthernRommel]

Regular freaks I can be friends with. Its the gamers who haunt the other CCG type game tables using their disposable income to buy all the rare cards that no one else has, or the ten elite rares that no one else can afford etc etc. Those are the ones I mean as control freaks.

Without getting into a lengthy discussion on the psychology of the audience in the gaming world.....tempting as it is.....being old and all :cool: ...... It is sadly the nature of the industry now. Competition taken to extremes is not fun, but when the power gamers corrupt the game merely to satisfy some personal urge for supremacy, well that ruins it for us all. I dont want to see that in this game, but the presence of the Hero, and other units that designers refuse to fix.......well that speaks volumes.

Gaming is and always will be an outlet for all of us freaks of all ages. It is the intelligent challenge of tactics and resourcefulness that makes it interesting. The genre of WWII however deserves more respect then what power gamers will ever give it.

[boersma8]

Alright I did this for Set 3 and now I'll do it for Set 4.

First off is the Spitfire 109. If u people don't want repaints then quit the game! Also it's 100 something scale so does it matter what mold it came out of? I compared it to pictures of real spitfires and it looks the same!

Second off is the Hero. Yes it is undercosted. Yes there should be a 1 per army limit but that's life. U can always house rule Heroes. As for Historical Accuracy it's SA is true to life. Audie Murphy took control of a .50 MG on top of a burning M-10 Wolverine and called in artillery strikes at the same time.

Every time a new set comes u guys whine and whine over the smallest thing! If u don't like it then don't buy it!

I for one don't like the hero rules as they are at the moment and yes I've been complaining about them! Even you yourself, despite the fact that you say you like the game and that other shouldn't whine so much recognise the fact that there shouldn't be more than one in an army and that they are undercosted. Those are only two of the issues...If even you see that mistake, despite your overaalpraise to the game, this entirely makes our point!

I don't know how much you pay for a booster, but here in Europe I've been buying them mostly for 17.95 euros a pice ( that's over $20, if I'm not mistaken). Excuse me, but I do think that spending such amounts of money on a product justifies the the demand for a sound product, in other words, no mishaps such as the hellcat,m3 anti tank gun and Schpittfire.....I also love the game too much to abandon it resolutely, but if you buy a tv, car or whatever other (expensive) product and it doesn't meet your expectations and has some serious shortcomings, don't you go to the store and complain about it??? That's all we're doing and I feel we have every right to do so.....

[Vulturedoodle]

I can assure you I am just a regular freak, and not a control freak.
:) Don't know how long you've been on the boards, Sean, but I like you already. Especially your Avatar and Caption.

--SEF

[Type-A]

Even you yourself, despite the fact that you say you like the game and that other shouldn't whine so much recognise the fact that there shouldn't be more than one in an army and that they are undercosted. Those are only two of the issues...If even you see that mistake, despite your overaalpraise to the game, this entirely makes our point!

I don't know how much you pay for a booster, but here in Europe I've been buying them mostly for 17.95 euros a pice ( that's over $20, if I'm not mistaken). Excuse me, but I do think that spending such amounts of money on a product justifies the the demand for a sound product, in other words, no mishaps such as the hellcat,m3 anti tank gun and Schpittfire.....I also love the game too much to abandon it resolutely, but if you buy a tv, car or whatever other (expensive) product and it doesn't meet your expectations and has some serious shortcomings, don't you go to the store and complain about it??? That's all we're doing and I feel we have every right to do so.....
Touché. I couldn't agree more. You and your fellow Europeons need to get on the "Who Plays A&A Minis" thread so we can get the percentage up for other countries. I've always had a hunch that should be better represented.
http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?t=7912&page=1&pp=10

[Bobsalt]

:) Don't know how long you've been on the boards, Sean, but I like you already. Especially your Avatar and Caption.

--SEF
Yes - best avatar I've seen yet on here. Of course, no one under 30 will probably get it...

[Lotus]

Yes - best avatar I've seen yet on here. Of course, no one under 30 will probably get it...

Yes...another Sherman variant. ;)

[Joisey]

Also for those who support buying Set 4 put "Team AAM Junkie" on your Signature in big bold red letters
Don't you mean "Team AAM Flunkie"????????? :D

[Joisey]

:::Boggle:::

Well I have no idea what you are talking about...but really how is our differing view of cowardice germane to my post? Did you read or have an opinion other than one that is not relevant?
Love the Shakespeare allusion. Impressive display of literary wit. Another reminder of where the demographics are for this product, but is anyone paying attention????

[Joisey]

The thing that amazes me on the errata for Set III was that they were able to produce it so quickly. They spent – what, a few days? – looking at the outrage and were able to very quickly produce rules fixes that, while still not great, were quite an improvement over what they initially released. It’s things like that that make me wonder just how much thought WotC puts into the game in regard to how it functions as a game, and not just looking at it as a product to be sold. The complaints on the initial Set III rules began to be aired with 5 minutes of their release on the A&AM homepage. How is it possible for WotC to claim that they do careful playtesting, or any playtesting at all for that matter, and then release crap like that?

At any rate, yes, all of the complaints made them scramble, and they released errata that took unrealistic and unplayable rules and made them into being only unrealistic rules. You take what you can get. But I think you’re completely correct about the difference between a rules fix and producing a corrected miniature. Rules fixes can be done easily enough – if nothing else, just see what suggestions are posted here and then take them, organize them, and post it as an errata sheet on the internet. Not a big deal. But to release a new miniature is something else again. And this is where I’m not exactly ready to believe that such a thing will ever happen.

Mons said that this could take 6 months or more to correct. I’m not sure I understand why. I realize that the sets are produced in advance, and while we’re all discussing Set IV, the factory is probably in the process of producing and packaging Set VI or VII for shipment to WotC. This would make adding the corrected Spitfire to any of these sets very expensive – you’d have to reprint everything that listed the units in the set, you’d have to repackage what you’d already done, etc. This would be cost prohibitive to do, and isn’t really a viable option even if they wanted to do it. However, I don’t understand why a correct Spitfire couldn’t be produced and be available as a mail-in exchange, and also get more of them out into the market by making them into Combat Zone pieces. The mold to produce the correct piece should already be made, the test castings should already be at WotC so that the correctness of the model can be verified, and the instructions for detailing and decals should already be complete – all they need to do is to give the go-ahead to do this and it could probably be turned around in 30-60 days. Unless, of course, no mold exists because no Spitfire mold was ever produced. And this is where I have considerable doubts in my mind.

Every piece produced for A&AM so far has required a unique mold. 138 separate units = 138 separate molds. The one exception I can think of is the Pz IVF2 and the Pz IVD, which have hulls that are identical, although they have different printing on the underside. This can mean a totally different mold for the hull, or a shared partial mold, depending on the type of process used by the factory. However, the Spitfire, if it is like the other aircraft, would be a single-cast piece – probably from a clam shell injection type mold. This means that with a 45-unit set, there should have been 45 molds.

Now, if as many have said, the first 4 sets were all produced at the same time, the factory was producing 183 different pieces at roughly the same time. If this is the case, someone should have been checking off on the production of each piece and caught the fact that either the number of molds didn’t equal the number of different miniatures to be produced or that they had a mold that for some reason wasn’t being used. If nothing else, someone should have caught the fact that the same miniature was being painted in two different ways and this exact same piece was being labeled as two different pieces altogether. Even if all of these didn’t happen, WotC should have caught this when they realized the number of molds didn’t equal the number of pieces to be produced, or when they examined and signed off on each of the molds, or when they examined and approved each of the test castings. These are all very basic things that are done by companies that are in the business of selling goods produced by contracted manufacturers.

The bottom line to all of this is that if WotC was playing straight with us and did even the most cursory job of checking on the work they were paying someone else to do, somewhere there is a Spitfire mold. There should also be test castings of Spitfires as well, though it’s not impossible that they didn’t request any test castings. Incompetent, yes. But not impossible – although the photo we saw earlier of the “Dug-in MG” suggests that WotC is indeed receiving test castings. Posting photos of one of the test castings would go a long way toward beginning to rebuild some trust, since that would show there really was a Spitfire mold. If there is no test casting, then it would still be easy enough to photograph the mold and then post photo here as proof that they weren’t trying to pull a fast one, be it WotC or HFE.

Until I see such proof, I will not believe that a Spitfire mold was ever produced. Whether that was due to incompetence or the belief by someone somewhere that we wouldn’t notice (or yet another reason I haven’t thought of) I’ll leave to others to decide. Part of my reason for believing this is due to what Mons said about any fix taking at least 6 months to fix. As I said earlier, if a correct Spitfire mold exists, a replacement should be able to be produced and be ready for distribution on at least a customer mail-in exchange basis within 60 days if WotC really wants to do it. The 6 month time frame Mons mentions only makes sense if a new mold has to be made before such production can be made (although he is quite correct when he says that a new Spitfire couldn’t be included in regular boosters for at least 6 months).

Even if WotC produces a real Spitfire, I don’t expect to see it before this time next year, based on what we’ve seen with the Hellcat. It’s been 8 months since we were told that fixes were in place for the Hellcat and steps were underway to replace or reissue it, and so far we have seen nothing. This suggests to me that we aren’t going to see a replacement for the Hellcat. Now, the fact that the Spitfire is such a well-known piece (iconic, as some have put it) might mean that it will indeed be produced, whereas a lesser-known piece such as the Hellcat (which, not being an armor expert, I don’t believe I ever heard of until I saw it in A&AM) will not be. Another factor to consider is that once they replace one unit, they kind of open up a Pandora’s Box to replacing all of the other incorrect pieces. I think some amount of variation in scale is unavoidable (though other manufacturers seem to be able to avoid it) and they shouldn’t redo every wrong piece, though I think the Hellcat and the US 3” gun are bad enough to warrant replacement. Frankly, though, I just don’t think they’re going to go there (although I think it would do wonders for their PR if they did/do).

To conclude this, let me say that I apologize if this post seems overly negative. I have tried to approach this from a detached point of view, but the subject matter itself makes it difficult to prevent a certain amount of negativity from creeping in. I also want it to be clear that I don’t think Mons is lying to us in anything he says about all of this. I think he’s repeating what those above him are telling him, and I have to say that so far WotC as a company hasn’t exactly impressed me with their business ethics. As an R&D guy, he knows what things are supposed to look like. Unfortunately, there are other people who have the final say on that, which is how we wind up with the Messerschpit.
Well said! Bravo!

[Lotus]

Love the Shakespeare allusion. Impressive display of literary wit. Another reminder of where the demographics are for this product, but is anyone paying attention????

Joisey, let's just keep on WoTC, like weekly or monthly. Press them for updates on the fix(s). They said they're having a new plane made. I know they didn't w/ the Hellcat but this is a different piece...too important for them to scab off.

[Joisey]

Joisey, let's just keep on WoTC, like weekly or monthly. Press them for updates on the fix(s). They said they're having a new plane made. I know they didn't w/ the Hellcat but this is a different piece...too important for them to scab off.
Analyzing this as a trial lawyer, I'd say (and this has already been pointed out) that the MOST CRUCIAL piece of evidence to be examined in this investigation is the ORIGINAL MOLD. Where is the original sculpt? Does it exist? Where is it now? If Wotc wants us to believe their story, show us the proto-type that WAS a unique and accurate mold.

This is the equivalent of an air-tight alibi. The picture of you down the street at the ATM at the exact time and place you're accuser says you were somewhere else commiting a crime. This is the polygraph exam that you PASSED.

Thus far, Wotc has failed to produce the exculpatory evidence. The silence is deafening. Don't think for a second we haven't noticed.

The alternative is that Wotc knew all along they were recylcing a prior sculpt. It boggles the mind that anyone could think they'd get away with 1) faking such an iconic symbol of the Battle of Britian or 2) picking the marquee mini of the entire set (notice the big picture of an "actual" spitfire on the booster box) in which to use a recycled mold. Anyone who's paying the least bit of attention to the customer base would know that the historical knowledge and sophistication that we collectively possess is formidable.

The last example of such naive arrogance was when Dan Rather tried to pass off fake documents and was ripped to shreds in minutes by the blogosphere. We are like the blogosphere in that respect---you might fool some of us some of the time, but you'll never ever fool all of us all of the time.

And let me just say that, IMHO, the intentional use of a recycled mini in a commercial product advertised as a set of "unique collectibles" could very well be considered by any number of State Attorney Generals as an act of Consumer Fraud. The fact that the interstate mails were used to perpetrate such Consumer Fraud may also implicate Federal laws as well. Whether or not an alternate paint job differentiates the sculpt enough to avoid legal liability is an interesting question, and debatable. But certainly it was not within "customer expectations". I would also argue that a repainted sculpt is not within the "reasonable" interpretation, either by the public or by the industry standards, of what constitutes a "unique collectible" (i.e. what was advertised to the consumer).

I suspect that the reason WotC has been so circumspect in this matter is because THEIR LEGAL DEPARTMENT HAS TOLD THEM NOT TO SAY ANYTHING INCRIMINATING!

But, I could be wrong......

[Lotus]

Analyzing this as a trial lawyer, I'd say (and this has already been pointed out) that the MOST CRUCIAL piece of evidence to be examined in this investigation is the ORIGINAL MOLD. Where is the original sculpt? Does it exist? Where is it now? If Wotc wants us to believe their story, show us the proto-type that WAS a unique and accurate mold.

This is the equivalent of an air-tight alibi. The picture of you down the street at the ATM at the exact time and place you're accuser says you were somewhere else commiting a crime. This is the polygraph exam that you PASSED.

Thus far, Wotc has failed to produce the exculpatory evidence. The silence is deafening. Don't think for a second we haven't noticed.

The alternative is that Wotc knew all along they were recylcing a prior sculpt. It boggles the mind that anyone could think they'd get away with 1) faking such an iconic symbol of the Battle of Britian or 2) picking the marquee mini of the entire set (notice the big picture of an "actual" spitfire on the booster box) in which to use a recycled mold. Anyone who's paying the least bit of attention to the customer base would know that the historical knowledge and sophistication that we collectively possess is formidable.

The last example of such naive arrogance was when Dan Rather tried to pass off fake documents and was ripped to shreds in minutes by the blogosphere. We are like the blogosphere in that respect---you might fool some of us some of the time, but you'll never ever fool all of us all of the time.

And let me just say that, IMHO, the intentional use of a recycled mini in a commercial product advertised as a set of "unique collectibles" could very well be considered by any number of State Attorney Generals as an act of Consumer Fraud. The fact that the interstate mails were used to perpetrate such Consumer Fraud may also implicate Federal laws as well. Whether or not an alternate paint job differentiates the sculpt enough to avoid legal liability is an interesting question, and debatable. But certainly it was not within "customer expectations". I would also argue that a repainted sculpt is not within the "reasonable" interpretation, either by the public or by the industry standards, of what constitutes a "unique collectible" (i.e. what was advertised to the consumer).

I suspect that the reason WotC has been so circumspect in this matter is because THEIR LEGAL DEPARTMENT HAS TOLD THEM NOT TO SAY ANYTHING INCRIMINATING!

But, I could be wrong......

Yeah...I know. Flog me w/ reason. But where does that put us now? They are at least saving face, and attempting to preserve their customer base. So I say let them save face so long as they also prove they're working on the problem. If they can throw us a bone every couple of weeks, something that shows progress, it would be enough.
I work in publishing. Sometimes we have work done in Hong Kong. It's problematic sometimes, sure, but the world's alot smaller place now. That 6 months+ is pure buffer zone. They can post a blank sculpt well before then. They may not want to for other reasons, like promotion, etc. In this case, however, it would be well within their interest to give us this fix to look forward to.

I remain hopeful because of their quick response w/ the Set III erratta. My hope's longevity is dependent on WoTCs regular updates in this matter.

[Geobaldi]

With all the problems A&AM is having, I'll still have to stick with it over the alternatives:

I'm a world-class miniature painter. I have miniatures I've painted currently in Games Workshops store in london on display. Yet I have zero time to start painting anything today. Not to mention a three-year-old who undoubtibly will insist on "helping" daddy. I have a business to run, no time to paint hundred of minis by hand.

I also don't have $300+ to devote per army. I have a German, British, Japanese and a small Russian army in A&AM, with as little of an investment as $56 per set release.

I LIKE new sets. Most miniature (metal/resin) don't produce huge new sets. At best, you get 5 new minis every six months. So what they have is what they have, if it's not there, you'll be waiting a long while.

I have limited time, and I like my simply-set-up, fast run game. As much as they claim it's a "fast" game, the labyrinthine rule-sets, expansion books, tables in abundance, miniature placement from tape measure rulings, etc, etc, make the reality a bit different.

I also like my freedom to arrange units as I please. Army lists and restricted units, while COMPLETELY realistic, and quite simply put LESS fun.

You think "fashion" all-encompassing armies ruin THIS game!? Wander down and take a look at the next F-O-W tournament held near you. I nearly swallowed my tongue when I heard the King Tiger being described as "unplayable". That immediately started me on a "there are no bad pieces, just poor players" rant. Sure, there's a lot of talk of "unplayable" units here, but I ignore that. Other games are sold on being COMPLETELY balanced. Apparently not.

Sure, I know it's realistic, but the idea of investing over half my army in support units just so my actual fighting pieces can operate properly is just a joykiller. Especially considering I would have to paint all these buggers. How does one get excited painting tens of little support trucks, halftracks and crew. Painting Panthers and Churchills is fun, lining up little artillery-towing trucks for painting just sucks the happiness straight out of me.

Now, I'm not making fun of people who LIKE this sort of thing. Sure, maybe once I get old(er), settle down, don't have to work so hard and have plenty of spare time, I'll take up my 5-ought paintbrush and practice my eyebrow-lining in prep for tank commanders. But not now.

Right now, some poor little underpaid chinaman is painting minis for me (poorly), but better a poorly painted mini than a metal unpainted one.

For now, there just will be no Spitfire.

[Kriegshund]

Joisey, everything you have said the last couple days about this issue (hell, pretty much always) has just been so.......damned.......well.......said it makes me proud to be in your presence. Literally, not being facetious....

[Geobaldi]

Now that I've brought it up... Joisey, seriously... you're in the wrong game.

I can teach you to paint miniatures, it's NOT that hard, I promise. ;)

[Kriegshund]

Geobaldi, I know it was not really your intent, but to be perfectly honest your critique of FOW....your description of the things that turned you off....seemed quite attractive to me. My investment into AAM to this point is probably along the lines of $1500. I am now drooling over what a pretty FOW army that could have purchased me after Panzerpainter got done with it....... :(

[Aries]

Now that I've brought it up... Joisey, seriously... you're in the wrong game.

I can teach you to paint miniatures, it's NOT that hard, I promise. ;)

It is not "the hard" that keeps me from it, it is time. AAM was perfect for me as I have 3 kids seven and younger and another one coming. Being able to play out of the box was a huge selling point for me.

[Joisey]

Now that I've brought it up... Joisey, seriously... you're in the wrong game.

I can teach you to paint miniatures, it's NOT that hard, I promise. ;)
Interesting that you should mention that. I'm rushing home from work this afternoon to finish painting our new Sandbag Emplacement terrain (and maybe I'll even get to the Stone Walls) for Spring Gathering.

As I said to 4242David4242 the other night, as we were preping and painting barbed wire terrain at 2:30am in my garage: "You know, Dave, seems like we're already doing alot of modelling and painting already."

To which he replied: "yeah, but $100.00 will only buy you four or five tanks in F.O.W."

And to which I glumly responded: "Yeah, and that doesn't even include putting them together and painting them."

Which was why the AAM concept was soooo appealing (that and being able to afford to recreate regimental level battles). It's why I'm so, so, very annoyed at these "Wizznerds" so very thoroughly botching up the execution of the concept. :(

[Joisey]

Joisey, everything you have said the last couple days about this issue (hell, pretty much always) has just been so.......damned.......well.......said it makes me proud to be in your presence. Literally, not being facetious....
Thanks. As you can well imagine, its getting ALOT of discussion over here at BGNJ.

[Lotus]

Interesting that you should mention that. I'm rushing home from work this afternoon to finish painting our new Sandbag Emplacement terrain (and maybe I'll even get to the Stone Walls) for Spring Gathering.

As I said to 4242David4242 the other night, as we were preping and painting barbed wire terrain at 2:30am in my garage: "You know, Dave, seems like we're already doing alot of modelling and painting already."

To which he replied: "yeah, but $100.00 will only buy you four or five tanks in F.O.W."

And to which I glumly responded: "Yeah, and that doesn't even include putting them together and painting them."

Which was why the AAM concept was soooo appealing (that and being able to afford to recreate regimental level battles). It's why I'm so, so, very annoyed at these "Wizznerds" so very thoroughly botching up the execution of the concept. :(

Stay with it Joisey. It's dented, not broken.

Besides, when Syr/Bing comes to play you guys, we need to be playing the same game or it won't work. :D

[Bobsalt]

Analyzing this as a trial lawyer, I'd say (and this has already been pointed out) that the MOST CRUCIAL piece of evidence to be examined in this investigation is the ORIGINAL MOLD. Where is the original sculpt? Does it exist? Where is it now? If Wotc wants us to believe their story, show us the proto-type that WAS a unique and accurate mold.

This is the equivalent of an air-tight alibi. The picture of you down the street at the ATM at the exact time and place you're accuser says you were somewhere else commiting a crime. This is the polygraph exam that you PASSED.

Thus far, Wotc has failed to produce the exculpatory evidence. The silence is deafening. Don't think for a second we haven't noticed.

The alternative is that Wotc knew all along they were recylcing a prior sculpt. It boggles the mind that anyone could think they'd get away with 1) faking such an iconic symbol of the Battle of Britian or 2) picking the marquee mini of the entire set (notice the big picture of an "actual" spitfire on the booster box) in which to use a recycled mold. Anyone who's paying the least bit of attention to the customer base would know that the historical knowledge and sophistication that we collectively possess is formidable.

The last example of such naive arrogance was when Dan Rather tried to pass off fake documents and was ripped to shreds in minutes by the blogosphere. We are like the blogosphere in that respect---you might fool some of us some of the time, but you'll never ever fool all of us all of the time.

And let me just say that, IMHO, the intentional use of a recycled mini in a commercial product advertised as a set of "unique collectibles" could very well be considered by any number of State Attorney Generals as an act of Consumer Fraud. The fact that the interstate mails were used to perpetrate such Consumer Fraud may also implicate Federal laws as well. Whether or not an alternate paint job differentiates the sculpt enough to avoid legal liability is an interesting question, and debatable. But certainly it was not within "customer expectations". I would also argue that a repainted sculpt is not within the "reasonable" interpretation, either by the public or by the industry standards, of what constitutes a "unique collectible" (i.e. what was advertised to the consumer).

I suspect that the reason WotC has been so circumspect in this matter is because THEIR LEGAL DEPARTMENT HAS TOLD THEM NOT TO SAY ANYTHING INCRIMINATING!

But, I could be wrong......

How much of a retainer would it take for some of us to scrape up to get you to look into this? :D I've got the money I was going to spend on two cases I can throw in - though I guess to claim I am an injured party I would have to actually buy this set and get one of the Messerschpits, wouldn't I? OH, well - it was a thought...

Or here's another thought - maybe we could pay you in miniatures? :D I'll chip in 2 KV-1's and a spare T-34/76 to get the ball rolling - and what the heck - 7 Ka MI's as well (what can I say - I'm feeling generous).

[Huey 290]

Just a thought guys.............

What by chance if the pic we were shown was wrong and the sculpt is right? To counter this by bringing into account what someone from WOTC has said about looking into it..........I would then say "Yes, but we already see a lack of communication among them." Maybe the WOTC guy who told us he would look into it does not know that a real Spitfire mold was used. Again, I refer back to their communication problems.

For those of you who cancelled orders, this is something to consider. I am sure you can get them anyway, but I think there has been some jumping to conclusion going on here, patience please.

[MektonZero]

Analyzing this as a trial lawyer, I'd say (and this has already been pointed out) that the MOST CRUCIAL piece of evidence to be examined in this investigation is the ORIGINAL MOLD. Where is the original sculpt? Does it exist? Where is it now? If Wotc wants us to believe their story, show us the proto-type that WAS a unique and accurate mold.

This is the equivalent of an air-tight alibi. The picture of you down the street at the ATM at the exact time and place you're accuser says you were somewhere else commiting a crime. This is the polygraph exam that you PASSED.

I wouldn't say airtight, they've had days to get something ready that they can pass off as the "original sculpt", certainly good enough to pass inspection via a digital picture posted on the internet.

Frankly I don't care if they ever had an original sculpt or not. They can either replace every one of these bad minis or I, and I can only hope I'm not alone in this, will do everything within my legal power to tank their War at Sea minis game before, during and after it launches.

They may end up writing off A&AM because of this fiasco; if sales of Set IV are impacted enough. For all we know they are already making plans to dump A&AM as fast as possible. Should that be the case there won't be any effort in getting people to boycott the game, but WotC might care when any future historical minis game they try is DOA due to their handling of this matter.

Who knows, this might be a great time for a certain well known metal WW2 miniatues game to get a factory in China to churn out a bunch of little plastic versions of their metal figures, slap on a few touches of paint, pare down the full rules and produce a "lite" version of their game.

[NumberCruncher]

@MektonZero-Disent, distrust, and now a call for revolt!
This thing is spiraling downward FAST!
But I can't fault your reasoning or logic.

Anyone up for a game of Mobile Soldier?

[Geobaldi]

Interesting that you should mention that. I'm rushing home from work this afternoon to finish painting our new Sandbag Emplacement terrain (and maybe I'll even get to the Stone Walls) for Spring Gathering.

As I said to 4242David4242 the other night, as we were preping and painting barbed wire terrain at 2:30am in my garage: "You know, Dave, seems like we're already doing alot of modelling and painting already."

To which he replied: "yeah, but $100.00 will only buy you four or five tanks in F.O.W."

And to which I glumly responded: "Yeah, and that doesn't even include putting them together and painting them."

Which was why the AAM concept was soooo appealing (that and being able to afford to recreate regimental level battles). It's why I'm so, so, very annoyed at these "Wizznerds" so very thoroughly botching up the execution of the concept. :(

I know exactly what you mean. I am a well-practiced miniature painter (as I noted in my earlier post) and I balk at the notion of doing it again, even for something as beloved to me as WW2.

I looked at FOW seriously yesterday, and I just couldn't see devoting that much time and effort into it right now.

That and the idea of my perfectly painted Panther G squad with little purple flowers painted on the side, as addition my "helpfull" little girl would undoubtibly think would do nothing but "improve" Daddy's hard work.

Couldn't even get upset over it either, not at her. First opponet that laughed at them would get a right cross, though.

See, it's in my BEST INTERESTS to stick with A&AM, through good or bad.

:)

[Lotus]

@MektonZero-Disent, distrust, and now a call for revolt!
This thing is spiraling downward FAST!
But I can't fault your reasoning or logic.

Anyone up for a game of Mobile Soldier?

It doesn't need to spiral at all. We got a little more info from Mons today. If everyone is reasonably patient, and vigilantly prodding, something better than the Hellcat-3"gun fiasco should come about.

[destructorofner]

Frankly I don't care if they ever had an original sculpt or not. They can either replace every one of these bad minis or I, and I can only hope I'm not alone in this, will do everything within my legal power to tank their War at Sea minis game before, during and after it launches.

They may end up writing off A&AM because of this fiasco; if sales of Set IV are impacted enough. For all we know they are already making plans to dump A&AM as fast as possible. Should that be the case there won't be any effort in getting people to boycott the game, but WotC might care when any future historical minis game they try is DOA due to their handling of this matter..

I sure hope someone at WOTC is paying attention to all this and fixes the issue. It would be unfortunate if anybody discouraged my local games stores from carrying this line or War at Sea.

[polish_horsy]

It doesn't need to spiral at all. We got a little more info from Mons today. If everyone is reasonably patient, and vigilantly prodding, something better than the Hellcat-3"gun fiasco should come about.

should... but will it? I think the boy cried wolf twice before people stopped believing him on the 3rd time.

i can wait... i'm just not spending another nickel until i'm satisfied with the fixes. and any fix involving me trusting someone to just believe it will be fixed in 6 months is not something i'm ok with anymore. for some people it is enough. there is nothing wrong with either approach.

[Lotus]

I sure hope someone at WOTC is paying attention to all this and fixes the issue. It would be unfortunate if anybody discouraged my local games stores from carrying this line or War at Sea.

Yup. Exactly. If WoTC wants War at Sea to succeed, they better not sabotage it by not rectifying the Spitfire.

The question I think is not whether there will be a proper Spit, but rather how it comes to the consumer. As a replacement? Or as a piece in another set that has to be bought.

The latter would be unfortunate.

[Uncle_Joe]

Oops, was that supposed to be the Yamato? Well, its just a re-painted Arizona instead. Sorry about that...wont happen again. :D

[Lotus]

should... but will it? I think the boy cried wolf twice before people stopped believing him on the 3rd time.

i can wait... i'm just not spending another nickel until i'm satisfied with the fixes. and any fix involving me trusting someone to just believe it will be fixed in 6 months is not something i'm ok with anymore. for some people it is enough. there is nothing wrong with either approach.

I can't argue with you. That's why I hope WoTC takes this as seriously as they should.

They could piggy-back replacements to LGSs with the following set for very little additional cost. Bring in the defective plane, go home w/ the right one.

I'd be cool w/ that.

[Joisey]

How much of a retainer would it take for some of us to scrape up to get you to look into this? :D I've got the money I was going to spend on two cases I can throw in - though I guess to claim I am an injured party I would have to actually buy this set and get one of the Messerschpits, wouldn't I? OH, well - it was a thought...

Or here's another thought - maybe we could pay you in miniatures? :D I'll chip in 2 KV-1's and a spare T-34/76 to get the ball rolling - and what the heck - 7 Ka MI's as well (what can I say - I'm feeling generous).
Ahhhh, but that is why I mentioned various state's Consumer Fraud Acts, and the Attorneys-General who enforce it. In a criminal proceeding, we don't have to fund the legal fees as the plaintiff. Most consumer fraud statutes, however, DO PROVIDE FOR RESTITUTION. ;)

So, instead of trying to fund a class action, all anyone here really has to do is pick up the phone and contact their state Ombudsman, or Dept. of Consumer Protection, or whatever state agency that has jurisdiction.

[Joisey]

I wouldn't say airtight, they've had days to get something ready that they can pass off as the "original sculpt", certainly good enough to pass inspection via a digital picture posted on the internet.

Frankly I don't care if they ever had an original sculpt or not. They can either replace every one of these bad minis or I, and I can only hope I'm not alone in this, will do everything within my legal power to tank their War at Sea minis game before, during and after it launches.

They may end up writing off A&AM because of this fiasco; if sales of Set IV are impacted enough. For all we know they are already making plans to dump A&AM as fast as possible. Should that be the case there won't be any effort in getting people to boycott the game, but WotC might care when any future historical minis game they try is DOA due to their handling of this matter.

Who knows, this might be a great time for a certain well known metal WW2 miniatues game to get a factory in China to churn out a bunch of little plastic versions of their metal figures, slap on a few touches of paint, pare down the full rules and produce a "lite" version of their game.
Ya know, Mekton, that's a good point. I guess I just wasn't thinking cynically enough. ;)

And as far as putting out bad product, and then failing to make good with the consumer, boycotts (organized or just the accumulation of thousands of individual purchasing decisions) are a textbook example of consumer psychology and how free markets work. Just look at what happened to the "Big Three" American automakers after putting out a decade of crappy cars in the 1970's---their marketshare and their products' reputation never recovered. GM today is teetering on the brink of bankruptcy (although that is due in part to unsustainable healthcare benefits they gave to the unions).

[DocD]

Absolutely Joisey. Didn't one of the big three need a government grant to get back on its feet in the early 80s?

A company will only get so far with substandard quality. Then the word gets out and people run away. Lessons learned.

[Muenchausen]

I read the post on possibly taking legal action against WOTC for false advertising and I have two questions.

How do you intend to prove you were fraudulantly sold a product when you new in advance the mini was defective? ie a repaint of another molding.
It's not false advertising when they show you a picture of what your getting.

What do you expect in damages when, after knowing the miniature was defective you bought it anyways?

I was completly shocked that WOTC printed an Errata for set III. Know I'm totally amazed that the desention for the Mesospitz has gone to the level of considering legal action. I challange anyone of you to go to your district attorneys office with all the evidence and ask them what they think. And your DA is the appropriate starting point. I think I know what kind of reaction your going to get, but I'm going to reserve comment until later.

Folks, I'm NOT going to tell anyone to shut up or quite the game. By all means continue hollering at WOTC for this boondoggle. You might get something accomplished. If it bothers any of you that bad that your consider legal action you might want to consider voting with your wallet. Just my 2 cents worth now let me have it.

[Bobsalt]

I read the post on possibly taking legal action against WOTC for false advertising and I have two questions.

How do you intend to prove you were fraudulantly sold a product when you new in advance the mini was defective? ie a repaint of another molding.
It's not false advertising when they show you a picture of what your getting.

What do you expect in damages when, after knowing the miniature was defective you bought it anyways?

I was completly shocked that WOTC printed an Errata for set III. Know I'm totally amazed that the desention for the Mesospitz has gone to the level of considering legal action. I challange anyone of you to go to your district attorneys office with all the evidence and ask them what they think. And your DA is the appropriate starting point. I think I know what kind of reaction your going to get, but I'm going to reserve comment until later.

Folks, I'm NOT going to tell anyone to shut up or quite the game. By all means continue hollering at WOTC for this boondoggle. You might get something accomplished. If it bothers any of you that bad that your consider legal action you might want to consider voting with your wallet. Just my 2 cents worth now let me have it.
Don't worry - not going to "let you have it" - at least, I'm not. Speaking for me, I was joking. I was concerned that someone might take me seriously, which is why I threw in the comment about paying in miniatures. Oh well.

My plan is to just not buy anything else from them, and cherry pick what I want from eBay. I have much less time for gaming in my life right now anyway, and so I might not even do that - I spend more time posting on this forum than I do actually playing. I already have enough stuff to be able to play a fun game if I never buy another piece.

[MektonZero]

I read the post on possibly taking legal action against WOTC for false advertising and I have two questions.

How do you intend to prove you were fraudulantly sold a product when you new in advance the mini was defective? ie a repaint of another molding.
It's not false advertising when they show you a picture of what your getting.

"With these faithful reproductions of real WWII combat vehicles and fighting units, you can recreate historical battles from World War II with authentic Shermans, Panzers, infantry, and more!" - Current Ad copy for A&AM.

What do you expect in damages when, after knowing the miniature was defective you bought it anyways?

Never, EVER, underestimate what a jury will do. A man sued his car dealership, it seems that that they didn't disclose the fact that his car had been scratched in transit and a front quarter panel repainted. Despite the fact that it took a later auto accident to reveal that the quarter panel had been repainted a jury awarded him a seven figure verdict against the dealer in order to encourage the dealer to disclose such facts in the future.

It's called punitive damages, look it up.

I challange anyone of you to go to your district attorneys office with all the evidence and ask them what they think. And your DA is the appropriate starting point. I think I know what kind of reaction your going to get, but I'm going to reserve comment until later.

You don't take a civil suit to the District Attorney's office.

[MektonZero]

Absolutely Joisey. Didn't one of the big three need a government grant to get back on its feet in the early 80s?

A company will only get so far with substandard quality. Then the word gets out and people run away. Lessons learned.

Hell, one of the big three is owned by a German company now. Oh sure, they call it Chrysler-Daimler here in the US so as to not offend the sheeple by offering the illusion that Chrysler is dominant but their website is DaimlerChrysler.com for a reason. :D

And no, I'm not knocking them for doing it, it's a good idea given how stupid the average joe is. That and I owe them 19,000 for a new Jeep Liberty that I'm paying for. I'm just making the payments, I can't get it away from the gf long enough for me to actually drive it more than a couple of times a month. :)

[Surfer_Sam]

U now what the problem with AAM boards are? It's whiny ,b*** complainers like you people. For Chirst Sake one day your going to complain about how the soldier are wearing the wrong type of boots. I mean come on, it's just a plane. I log in on to the board and I hear about LEGAL ACTION. Actual sewing WOTC!? Are you mad!? It utterly retarded.
IF you don't like the game FON'T PLAY!!! I CAN'T EVEN BEGIN TO EXPRESS MY DISGUST IN YOU PEOPLE. :mad: You make me sick. LEGAL ACTION! Your FREAKIN CRAZY! And furthermore if all your going to do is complain about the game everytime a new set is announced then please leave the damn site. You people clog the boards with your complaint threads all about the SAME thing. Just die. :mad: :mad:

[Lotus]

Boy...if that ain't beggin' for a Mod to close the thread... :rolleyes:

As has been said many times in the past, read the threads you like, avoid the ones you don't. Nobody's forcing anyone's eyeballs here.

[Moderator Sinister]

Folks,

Two Things from my prospective, which is often a unique one because I'm an avid AH gamer AND a moderator....

1. Give AH some time. WotC/AH have never been the kind to respond right away, they are aware of the issue. I remember when D-day had the problem with the missing pieces and thier customer service team was simple AWESOME in getting out replacement pieces.

2. Use the official thread I have sticked. Your message is very clear there. Remember this issue may be VERY important to you but many people here are here to exchange ideas and get information on a VARIETY of topics on A&AM, not just page after page of 109 spitfire.

3. Everyone needs to respect each other. That means we don't need flame wars between the people who want the spitfire fixed and the people who care less. The CoC regardless of the 109 spitfire issue is still in effect.

As a military history major and wargammer I KNOW this issue is important but let's give AH time.

[Irish]

U now what the problem with AAM boards are? It's whiny ,b*** complainers like you people. For Chirst Sake one day your going to complain about how the soldier are wearing the wrong type of boots. I mean come on, it's just a plane. I log in on to the board and I hear about LEGAL ACTION. Actual sewing WOTC!? Are you mad!? It utterly retarded.
IF you don't like the game FON'T PLAY!!! I CAN'T EVEN BEGIN TO EXPRESS MY DISGUST IN YOU PEOPLE. :mad: You make me sick. LEGAL ACTION! Your FREAKIN CRAZY! And furthermore if all your going to do is complain about the game everytime a new set is announced then please leave the damn site. You people clog the boards with your complaint threads all about the SAME thing. Just die. :mad: :mad:

"Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right......"

[DocD]

Actual sewing WOTC!? Are you mad!? It utterly retarded. ....I think the correct word here would be SUING.

IF you don't like the game FON'T PLAY!!! I CAN'T EVEN BEGIN TO EXPRESS MY DISGUST IN YOU PEOPLE. :mad: You make me sick. LEGAL ACTION! Your FREAKIN CRAZY! And furthermore if all your going to do is complain about the game everytime a new set is announced then please leave the damn site. You people clog the boards with your complaint threads all about the SAME thing. Just die. :mad: :mad:
I think the correct word here would be DON'T.

Sam...take it easy....you are going to burst a blood vessel. People are displeased with the quality of AAM right now and are simply voicing their opinions. You don't agree....SO WHAT! Who cares that you are disgusted.....I am disgusted that you are disgusted...so now what?

Grow up dude.

[Stojakovic]

If I am being attacked because I was making a joke about suing wizards and the whole fine print issue on the booster.... well that what it was a joke. Was never happy with the paint jobs or molds from day one. But I still continued to buy and play it... why? I love the game play. Set nothing special except the IS-2, chi-ha, and the Japanese sniper. Set 3 I saw nothing special... the planes look cool but the paint jobs suck... the zero was the best IMHO. Set IV most the tanks I have seen look fugly much like all German tanks (and others). the paint job for the spitfire ( or what ever you want to call it) looks great... the mold is a big disappointment. But Much like the way I thought off all the sets I will continue to buy them despite poor quality because it is fun and that’s what I love to do in life, have fun. Life is too short to complain about a few things made of plastic from china that is just suppose to represent the actual unit. The spitfire is playable and I will use it. If you quit this game because of one mini I am sorry, hope you had a great time with it and hope you find something else. If you continue to play good for you hope you many years of enjoyment out of the game. We all have our opinions and this thread we have been repetitive about the whole thing which leads to some one triggering to a "*****OFF CONTEST" Both sides are to blame for that. Is it necessary?... No. Does it happen a lot in here yes and will always happen. I do realize this is not the only that is causing all this aggravation, and it is repeated mistakes throughout it short life. You made read this and go blah, blah, blah this person is full of $#!T which a few of you have done in here already just because you are angry and Wiz. And do not want to hear what I have to say or do not agree with what I have to say unless I am 100% on your side.

The side I am on is the middle.

["Easy Eight"]

U now what the problem with AAM boards are? It's whiny ,b*** complainers like you people. For Chirst Sake one day your going to complain about how the soldier are wearing the wrong type of boots. I mean come on, it's just a plane. I log in on to the board and I hear about LEGAL ACTION. Actual sewing WOTC!? Are you mad!? It utterly retarded.
IF you don't like the game FON'T PLAY!!! I CAN'T EVEN BEGIN TO EXPRESS MY DISGUST IN YOU PEOPLE. :mad: You make me sick. LEGAL ACTION! Your FREAKIN CRAZY! And furthermore if all your going to do is complain about the game everytime a new set is announced then please leave the damn site. You people clog the boards with your complaint threads all about the SAME thing. Just die. :mad: :mad:

I agree with this guy

[Surfer_Sam]

My bad, didn't now that suing thing was a joke. I was sorta hyped up on Sierra Mist. It's just so good. I do like the idea of just making one thread were everyone can complain. It's just that I keep on hearing complainers and then I was skimming through this thread and I saw someone talking about Suing, I burst. Didn't know that was a joke. :(

[Prioux]

"To which he replied: "yeah, but $100.00 will only buy you four or five tanks in F.O.W."

And to which I glumly responded: "Yeah, and that doesn't even include putting them together and painting them." "



The price quoted for 4 or 5 FOW tanks is inaccurate. The price quoted would be true if they were painted very well.

[Surfer_Sam]

Meaning what?

[PatrickWR]

Most FOW tanks cost $8-$12 USD for a single unpainted, unassembled vehicle at 15mm scale. Add in time to assemble and paint (your own time or others' , it makes no difference) and you pretty much approach a c-note for a platoon or less.

[Dugger]

You want expensive try Warhammer it's a killer on the wallet

Dugger :)

[Surfer_Sam]

Yeh I heard that, and by the way what does FOW stand for?

["Easy Eight"]

Flames of War

[Kriegshund]

Don't children need their parents permission to register is these forums? Serious question...

Now is the Winter of the Spitfires discontent.....

Cheated of feature by incompetent QC,
Deformed, unfinished, sent before my time
Into this Opening Salvo scarce half made up,
And that so lamely and unfashionable
That the AAM forum barks at me as I halt by them -
Why I, in this weak piping time of peace,
Have no delight to pass away the time,
Unless to spy my shadow in the sun
And descant on mine own deformity.
And therefore, since I cannot prove a Spitfire
To entertain these rude poorly-spoken posters,
I am determined to prove a villain
And hate the idle pleasures of this game.
Plots have I laid, inductions dangerous,
By drunken prophecies, libels, and dreams,
To set my brother A&AM Gamers
In deadly hate the one against the other......

Mired, Sin, somebody, just lock this thread and throw away the Key before we get another outburst like Surfer Sam's. Please.......

[Muenchausen]

" You don't take a civil suit to the District Attorney's office.

I can't believe I got sucked into this conversation but here goes. False advertisement is not a civil offense. It is a criminal offense. All criminal offenses are prosecuted by the DA.

If anyone wants to sue anyone or any entity, ie a corporation, the lawsuit must fall within the tort laws. False advertisement does not fall within the tort laws and therefor doesn't fall in under civil action.

You first must win the criminal action before proceeding to the civil action if the civil action falls within the tort laws.

If you remember the OJ Simpson trial. He was acquitted of murder charges in criminal court but was later convicted in a civil lawsuit for human rights violations.

[MektonZero]

I can't believe I got sucked into this conversation but here goes. False advertisement is not a civil offense. It is a criminal offense. All criminal offenses are prosecuted by the DA.

If anyone wants to sue anyone or any entity, ie a corporation, the lawsuit must fall within the tort laws. False advertisement does not fall within the tort laws and therefor doesn't fall in under civil action.

You first must win the criminal action before proceeding to the civil action if the civil action falls within the tort laws.

The EFF filed a class action lawsuit against the NSA in January for violating the law and the privacy of US citizens without the NSA ever being found to have violated the law in a criminal court.

If you remember the OJ Simpson trial. He was acquitted of murder charges in criminal court but was later convicted in a civil lawsuit for human rights violations.

He was convicted in a civil lawsuit for being responsible for causing the deaths of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman despite being found not guilty of those deaths in a criminal court. Here are the 8 questions the Jury was asked to consider and none of those questions are whether or not OJ violated their rights.
link (http://www.cnn.com/US/9702/04/jury.questions/index.html)

[MektonZero]

[QUOTE=Surfer_Sam]My bad, didn't now that suing thing was a joke. I was sorta hyped up on Sierra Mist./QUOTE]

Yeah, it just cuts the number of new threads down to nearly nothing. As we can easily see, the relevation by WotC that they are trying to pawn off a repainted 109 as an authentic model of a Spitfire has pretty much ground this entire forum to a halt.

[Muenchausen]

The EFF filed a class action lawsuit against the NSA in January for violating the law and the privacy of US citizens without the NSA ever being found to have violated the law in a criminal court.



He was convicted in a civil lawsuit for being responsible for causing the deaths of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman despite being found not guilty of those deaths in a criminal court. Here are the 8 questions the Jury was asked to consider and none of those questions are whether or not OJ violated their rights.
link (http://www.cnn.com/US/9702/04/jury.questions/index.html)
Both incidence's you cite are violations of TORT law. That is why they were tried in Civil court. And Yes causing the death of someone is the ultimate act of a civil rights violation.

Since you don't want to look up TORT law, your just going to have to trust me on this. No where in TORT law does it say that you can sue a manufacter becuase you don't like the miniature they produced. :D

But I still challange you or anybody else to go to your DA or any other attorney and tell them you want to sue WOTC for falsly advertising the Mesospitz. My prediction is you'll be so embarrassed that you will not post the results of your meeting.

[7thBeachBattalion]

My first post!.

FLAME ON!

The Messerschmitt painted like a Spitfire is laughable. For the record: it is wrong and it is our right to express our disgust. Especially when it's costing me $14.99 a booster. You're damn right I'm gonna' pitch a **tch!

Whether you like it or not, we are all Plastic Crack addicts; and Wotc has our number.
AH, WoTC , who ever, what ever...
The reality is that this game, like so many other games in the "Collectible" miniature genre, is a short lived, money making venture. It's all about the numbers folks! How long do you think that this will last; One, two, maybe three years? Where will you all be in three years? (Still waiting for the 20th set to be released? Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger with the US Grave Detail Unit?)
The fact is that whoever at AH pulled that stunt should be sacked. I am upset that they tried to pass the Spitschmitt off and expect us to just take it. The reason it hasn't been acknowledged is because we keep lining up with our sleeves rolled up ready for the next fix.
I had to laugh at the post by the one fellow who has already pre-ordered 5 cases. Come on guy, How much is enough? After my first case of Set I and a case of Set II, I started thinking of my life. I am a Gamer, so I understand the need. I am just ****** that this continues to go on.
I like the fellow from NJ, Surferman...whatever... Easy big boy. It's a game and you need to get a life. I play this for fun too. Yet, there is nothing wrong with sticking it to the Man.

Really Folks, with so much Historical Data available today, how could this happen?
I know...

Game Designer #1 "How about this, we drop a turd, put a Swastika on it and call it ...ah..a Panzer?"
Game Designer #2 " Brilliant!
Team Designer Manager " JB, you know, I better be careful or you will be running this business". (Uncontrollable laughs fill the room)

What just happened is real. It was an exerpt from the last Design meeting for A & A M set #5: The Swansong Set"

Bwhaaa Haaa Haaa

I say we are all suckers. And as long as we accept it, they will keep filling our vains with the stuff.
Do you really need to be the first to get the whole set the day after it comes out? Why not go in with several people and then trade to fill out the set? Sales drives the business folks, and if it isn't selling, they will either fix it or drop it. (Remember the Shadowrun Game with barbie doll figures...what a bunch of craap! Who was the Genius who came up with that Gem?)
Alright, I've rambled on enough.

The game is nice, and it has some flaws, but it is a great "Beer and Pretzels" time waster. Actually, I have been getting the Stat cards, scaling up the measurements and using 1/72 scale models in place of the "Accurate" (cough!) miniatures that Wotc has so accurately recreated. This way I know I don't have a Messerschmitt painted like a Spitfire...

Guys: take a breath; It's just a game! Wotc is reading this thread and laughing as they count the money.

[RommeL BombeR 77]

This is !@#$%'n ridiculous!

[RommeL BombeR 77]

These Negative energies are giving me puke vibes!

[Chortle]

Well I decided to save on storage space, so have replaced all my minis with post it notes, since they also stick to the map don't have to worry about knocking them off the table, triple win situation.

That's an excellent idea! You have inspired me to make an A&A travel set. I'm thinking of drawing pictures on my post it notes. Is that going to upset the pureists?

I just realised why my dog has been hanging around my bag all morning. There is a lump of chicken in there which I forgot to dish out to her when I arrived at work. Very practical creatures dogs.

Neil
http://www.reinforcementsbypost.com

[Sean]

People need reggae music.

[NumberCruncher]

U.S. Grave Detail Unit's moto:

"The first word in Funeral is Fun!"

Let's see...Other ad copy we'll never see:

U.S. Coward. Tired of those SSPGs always taking you out? Why wait? With the new SA "Shoot yourself in the foot" you can remove YOURSELF from the game!

Downed Pilot. "For you the war is over!" Spend the rest of the game in a POW camp staffed with an incompetent, nervous Col., an overweight Sgt, and a Senior Allied Officer with a sex addiction. Laughtrack not included.

Old Blood and Guts. {Our Blood and His Guts!} Now with Combat Fatigue Causualty slapping action! Just keep him away from the jeep until AFTER the game.

Elsa the She-Wolf. Pride of the SS. Comes with {Reference to alternate lifestyle choice with a fondness for torture and lite bondage removed because this is a family board.}

Agent Smith. Teleport yourself anywhere, anytime. Become anyone in the game and download any skillset or weapon you need in your quest to win at any cost.

Hello Nurse! With the ablility to paint makeup on her legs in a perfectly straight line, this figure is every dogface's next objective.

Future U.S. President. Your daddy kept you out of the ACTUAL fighting, now you can dress up like a REAL pilot and stand in front of a neat "Mission Accomplished" banner and lie like a rug. {Whoops, wrong conflict.}

Sorry, I'm just trying to get the bad taste left in my mouth over the Mess-o-spit out with, ah, bad taste...

[Uncle_Joe]

Agent Smith. Teleport yourself anywhere, anytime. Become anyone in the game and download any skillset or weapon you need in your quest to win at any cost.

This is present in Set4...otherwise known as the Resourceful Hero.

[Huey 290]

I absolutely love it when someone feels the need to bring their political agenda to a minis game venue. But then again, with most of the comments, targeting them at percieved kids playing a game is the only place they will get attention....

[NumberCruncher]

LOL!
You found me out!
You correctly interpreted my lame attempt at humor as a masterful plan to corrupt the minds of the innocent.
I am sooo starved for love and affection that this is the only place I can compensate for my lack of breastfeeding.
My quest to entertain if I can't enlighten or add something contructive is but a thinly veiled cry for help.

I will now crawl mewling back to my parent's bomb shelter to hatch another plot to undermine the morality of America's youth and change my cape.

[NumberCruncher]

Sorry about the crack at the President. That's John Crier's job...
{I love your signature quote by the way. It fits the situation at my job at Social Services to a "T".}