Fixing A&As Problems

[ThomastheTank]

Let me start this open letter to the A&A design department by saying that this is a game I really wanted to succeed and feel even now can succeed in what should be its goal: a reasonably accurate and easy to play game based on WWII ground combat.

Some aspects of the game such as the basic sequence of play have at least partially achieved this goal but several (increasingly severe) problem areas are undermining this goal hurting both sales and player enjoyment. Since sales is closely tied to player enjoyment this such be a topic of mutual interest to seller and consumer.

Major problems:

1) the basic multi-die to hit system. This system manages to be both cumbersome and unrealistic working against both simulation feel and ease of play. Rolling 18 die to reslove one simple shot is a prime example of how not to design a to hit system. I can think of a half dozen more playable and realistic methods. That being said I realize were stuck with it but hope a long range solution using the same cards and numbers can be found to replace this system (I've suggested one already in the house rules forum).

2) bad special rules. The new speical rules (esp airplanes, paras, hero etc) havie really hurt the basically sound original rules. This needs to be addressed with serious errata to fix these problems included in each box. In the future cards should just list the special power "Ruthless"; "Fade" etc. and not give rules text. The rules text should be on a reference card which can be changed and updated as play indicates problems. Avoids having to reissue cards to fix an (inevitable) unforseen rules glitz. Reduce the number and power of speical rules. Always vet the rules on these boards BEFORE printing the cards so feed back can be considered before product hits shelf.

3) bad vehicle data. Many of the armor values are way off. Shermans with Tiger armor and Hetzers with Su76 armor etc. can be easily fixed by basic research. If nothing else post proposed stats and let the A&A comunity do the research.

4) poor qualitly minitures. Compared with the 21st Century 1/144 tanks available in Walmart for <$2, the A&A minitures don't come close to competing. Basic research would reveal that no Hetzers were Panzer Grey (all were dunkel gleb or primer red). Similar painting mistakes could be elimniated by just vetting the minis as artwork and letting us do the research to get accurated paint schemes (which cost no more than inaccurate ones).

I beleive the company sincerely wants to put out a qualtiy product but simply does not have the research ablities to do so or understand how well informed the target market group is. This can be fixed by either hiring good reseach staff or using these boards.

For those posting they intend to give up on A&A and move to Flames of War, lets give the A&A staff a chance. They should admit mistakes ask for help and entertain suggestions to fix mistakes. (By the way the basic rules of A&A are a far superior simulation model to FOW - its the problems outlined above that have undermined A&As simulation value).

Tom

[Remember-OWS-]

This is curious about de R&D team at Avalon hill. Some of these guys come from the original Avalon Hill company... They had all the ability to put together a perfect game at that time.

Is there a schedule to respect, probably too fast, that no one had attribution to quality control.

[polish_horsy]

1. yeah we are stuck with this one. it is not horrible but could be better.
2. we are stuck with this one. I wish half the units had no special ability but that ain't gonna happen. they have to appeal to star wars and D&D crowd I guess. Heros make me ill... commanders were bad enough. But that is my opinion. Some people like them.
3. and 4. What can I say. If you think they are doing a bad job at 1. 2. 3. and 4. well... what are we paying for? If the rules, cards, and figures are not good in any persons view... well I guess I have an empty box here if you want to pay $12 for it.

[Arontje]

Major problems:

1) the basic multi-die to hit system. This system manages to be both cumbersome and unrealistic working against both simulation feel and ease of play. Rolling 18 die to reslove one simple shot is a prime example of how not to design a to hit system. I can think of a half dozen more playable and realistic methods. That being said I realize were stuck with it but hope a long range solution using the same cards and numbers can be found to replace this system (I've suggested one already in the house rules forum).



You may have some points but on this one I think not. I like this game from beginning because of this mechanism. I think it is a good system and has lots of potential.

[Roter_Teufel]

The colour schemes for many of the units are very poor. Did no one look at these units before they were sent to be mass produced? Or even look at the photos of the actual units that fought in the war?

[Autarch]

This is curious about de R&D team at Avalon hill. Some of these guys come from the original Avalon Hill company... They had all the ability to put together a perfect game at that time.

Is there a schedule to respect, probably too fast, that no one had attribution to quality control.

Is this true? It was my understanding that the origianl AH had closed their doors for some time before the brand name was bought by Hasbro. I don't think there was any transfer of staff. It wasn't like one company buying out another.

[XAos]

Is this true? It was my understanding that the origianl AH had closed their doors for some time before the brand name was bought by Hasbro. I don't think there was any transfer of staff. It wasn't like one company buying out another.
How many of the origional staff Hasbro retained I don't know. But A/H were still producing new games when Hasbro brought them out.

On the origional; subject of this thread;
1) I like the multi-D6 dice system.
2) AAM has had about a 3% (1 or 2 per expansion) problem with quality control on the minis (hellcat, 3" gun, spitfire etc). Thats about par for a non-CMG mini's line. Except a non-CMG company would withdraw the bad sculpts from production & replace them. A/H have not yet replaced anything, even the Hellcat is still on sale in the origional oversized version.
3) AAM does have a couple of serious game balence issues.
3a) Aircraft are unplayably useless.
3b) The set-I M4a1 sherman is OTT undercosted. When a new figure is previewed I compare it's cost-effectiveness to that sherman, if it doesn't come close, I don't buy it. On that criteria, the current previews suggest I won't be buying any minis from set-IV.

[fifleche]

The colour schemes for many of the units are very poor. Did no one look at these units before they were sent to be mass produced? Or even look at the photos of the actual units that fought in the war?Anyone remembers the Renault R-35 from set I? It was painted in RUMANIAN colors!!! ROFLOL!!!

[Geobaldi]

LEARN to PAINT miniatures. It's not hard.

[Lagduf]

LEARN to PAINT miniatures. It's not hard.

Tell that to the guys in the factory overseas.

[CdtWeasel]

Anyone remembers the Renault R-35 from set I? It was painted in RUMANIAN colors!!! ROFLOL!!!


ah so thats who that cross belongs to

[AATigers1]

LEARN to PAINT miniatures. It's not hard.

I'm not trying to pick a qaurrel but this is the problem with the American consumer. We buy press board laminated furniture from walmart or kmart and wonder why we it falls apart in 6 months and the land is full. We make no demands for a durable qaulity product from the companys. We buy at Uberti prices and expect a Colt - lets face it, either AH comes up with an honest fix or the collectability and realism goes out the window.

[Bobsalt]

LEARN to PAINT miniatures. It's not hard.
I'm not trying to pick a quarrel either, but I think there are two points that need to be made here.

1) Maybe it's not hard for YOU. Different people have different abilities and talents. I have very good skills in research and public speaking. I can get up in front of 500 people at the spur of the moment and give a speech off the cuff with no fear whatsoever. To me this is very easy and I don't even think of it, whereas it might intimidate you. However, you may be very skilled at painting, while I am next to hopeless in trying to do anything like what you are talking about - and I have tried. My best efforts at painting miniatures are very amatureish, and I've painted quite a few. I got into this game precisely so I wouldn't have to do any painting. To illustrate, I do a great deal of teaching on the Bible at church and in small group Bible studies. I much prefer to research and write my own studies than use what someone else has written. The reason for this is because I have some ability in this area and I feel I can produce a lesson that is better suited to my listeners than using something like a generic lesson plan written by someone else.In contrast, I am hopless in any endeavor requiring creative talent. As I said, I've painted quite a few miniatures, and in spite of a lot of pracitce, I've never gotten any better. I don't really have any creative talent for painting, drawing, etc., and having recognized that, I prefer to buy things that are already finished.

I hope you don't think I'm trying to bust your chops on this - I'm not. Just keep in mind that something that is simple to you is beyond the ability of others of us to do.

2) I hate to keep having to make this point, but I'll remind you that WotC's own advertising says that these miniatures are supposedly "detailed and highly realistic." This is their quote, not mine. As such, when I buy something that makes a claim of being "detailed and highly realistic", I have a certain expectation that what I am buying will be "detailed and highly realistic", and when they don't meet that claim, I am going to complain about it. Now, if WotC advertised these miniatures as being "of varying detail and quality, and somewhat realistic", I wouldn't have much to complain about. Of course, if they were that canidid they wouldn't sell very many of them, would they?

[NumberCruncher]

@AATigers1-Where, Oh Where To Begin!!!

Start with our politicians. It's Social Sciences 101 that any group put in power to look after the best interests of another will inevitably look to their own first after the first generation.
"Family Values" is the best example of table turning spin control in history.
Sure. We're crooked, lying, self-serving weasels that will sleep with anything, animal, vegetable or mineral, but YOU voted us in here because YOUR morals are slipping!
Brilliant I tell you! We're going to the Moon! {You're already there Mr. President.}

Move on to our Corperations.
Anyone who can afford lawyers will use them to avoid accounability, integrity, responsiblity, in short, actually having to work for a living.
Hey, even if you do get caught, {Unlikely, as our law enforcement agencies are too busy illegally tapping our phone lines,} you can whine to a judge that you can't live on a paltry $300.000.00 a month. {Actual Enron senior exec's wife did this and got her Estate and servants returned to her.} Because ultimately, we BOUGHT those politicians, we should get SOME use out of them.

Quick stop at a system that used Education as a means to legalize gambling, then stopped funding the schools by the exact amount that was appropriated by the lotto.

End up with a General Public comprised of ignorant, jaded, lazy, dishonest, ethicly challanged, morally bankrupt videogame players.

Thus we get a bunch of happy meal eating morons telling us we shouldn't complain, that if we do, the company will lose money and the game will die.

Well, I'D rather eat prime rib {if that's what I paid for, and if they bring me hamberger, I'm sending it back, just like this "Spitfire",} drink vintage and play a GOOD game, because life's too short for bad food, wine, company and blind-purchase marketing schemes maskarading as WWII "Historically Accurate" "Collectable" "Authentic" tactical simulations.

{Wow, that felt really good...Now I know why Grandpa goes off like he does!!!}

[GrimJesta]

I buy A&AM because I don't want to paint, or I'd just go and paint the bucket of Flames of War models I have (affectionately known as the Grey and Silver Legions because of their unprimed, unpainted scheme). And if this game is hailed by WotC as a historical WWII game with finely detailed, historical figures, I shouldn't have to repaint them to have historical models.

I've been tempted to repaint the Stormtrooper though. He looks rediculous- to the point that I refuse to field him.

I like the "fistfull of dice" mechanic. It works. Sure it could be better, but everything could be. But it's fine as is. I agree that the airplanes and heroes are rediculous. I too would prefer less SAs and more thought out SAs (playtesting... do they do it?). A real errata would be nice as well.

-=Grim=-

[Geobaldi]

Let it be known that I base none of my emotion state of mind on things said here on this forum. Thus it is nearly impossible for me to take offense at things stated herein.

My simple muse of "Learn to paint" was made simply to draw attention to the options we all face. As it stands now, we can stick with A&AM, go with the (less attractive, IMHO) option of FOW, stop gaming or make up our own game. Now, while I'll admit those last two are the least attractive, the main thrust of my point is to, in a sence, either accept what we're given in A&AM and accomodate those things we find distasteful...

...or learn to paint miniatures.

I had a good, long, in depth look over FOW yesterday, and honestly, nothing about it appealed to me at all. Price, effort, time investment, books, terrain, all of it seemed to turn me away. Nothing wrong with it, as a whole, but it just does NOT fit me at this time. So, as I have said elsepost, I will have to learn to accept A&AM, for good or bad, and accomodate the bad in a way to make it more palatable.

So, realistically, past all the jibber-jabber online and quarrelling about opinions and conjecture, it comes down to all of us: Stop playing, learn to live with A&AM< or learn to paint miniatures (and fork over WADS of cash) for FOW.

[Roter_Teufel]

I buy A&AM because I don't want to paint, or I'd just go and paint the bucket of Flames of War models I have (affectionately known as the Grey and Silver Legions because of their unprimed, unpainted scheme). And if this game is hailed by WotC as a historical WWII game with finely detailed, historical figures, I shouldn't have to repaint them to have historical models.

I've been tempted to repaint the Stormtrooper though. He looks rediculous- to the point that I refuse to field him.

I like the "fistfull of dice" mechanic. It works. Sure it could be better, but everything could be. But it's fine as is. I agree that the airplanes and heroes are rediculous. I too would prefer less SAs and more thought out SAs (playtesting... do they do it?). A real errata would be nice as well.

-=Grim=-


YOu are spot on here. If you [WOTC] are going to advertise your miniatures as being painted they should be painted to a degree of quality.

To address the quote of BOBSALT, saying that people have different skills etc..... you are also correct. But the point you fail to see is that we buy the miniatures from WOTC becuase they apparently have people who are skilled at painting and sculpting. Regardless of wether the players have the skill to repaint their miniatures at home is irrelevant. Players should not have to repaint them in order to correct defects - rather to customise the miniatures to thier needs ie a Tiger I in desert camo.

There is no excuse for WOTC for painting miniatures in wrong colour schemes as they are not hard to find. Poor quality paint jobs are a matter of interpretation, but there are a few miniatures that are quite poor thou.

[NorthernRommel]

I had a good, long, in depth look over FOW yesterday, and honestly, nothing about it appealed to me at all. Price, effort, time investment, books, terrain, all of it seemed to turn me away. Nothing wrong with it, as a whole, but it just does NOT fit me at this time. So, as I have said elsepost, I will have to learn to accept A&AM, for good or bad, and accomodate the bad in a way to make it more palatable.

So, realistically, past all the jibber-jabber online and quarrelling about opinions and conjecture, it comes down to all of us: Stop playing, learn to live with A&AM< or learn to paint miniatures (and fork over WADS of cash) for FOW.

From what I have seen FOW seems an awful lot like Warhammer marketing for WWII. Too many books, too much oriented towards selling instead of simple quality. However I do not know the game well so I find it hard to comment. That it was created by people with the Warhammer mindset and from that WD gaming world makes me suspicious straight off the top.

The other options is that as a community we can come up with our own gaming rules, maps, etc -- and WOTC be dammed. Sure they can produce the miniatures and we can Cherry pick the ones we want. Let the bang bang people have their fun at the tournaments -- and let WOTC go the way of the Emu for not understanding why they are targeting people the wrong way.

Call me overly independent minded, but I remember when that was a good thing. Sadly most companies and many people do not.

If something is wrong then you fix it. If you wont fix it then someone comes along with something better. Issues that involve lack of quality are the new standard. However corporations that dont listen are simply next months old news. A simple mistake like the Spit 109 are the least of this games troubles.

[DocD]

Wow, another great thread.....I unfortunately can't agree with.

Tank, I think we all would like to see better quality so no arguement there.

I can paint, and have painted, minis before, but I would rather not. After purchasing X amount of paint (for what, $50 maybe), it still would be too time consuming to sit and paint every miniature (I have over a 1000 now). Even if I was to pay some illegal immigrant to do it, it still would be too much for my wallet to afford.

As far as rolling 18 dice, as cumbersome as it is, that's never going to change. Face it, we all knew what we were getting into after buying the starter set the first day. I think you would be hard pressed to find players at this point in time who would opt out of the game because of that and WotC knows that. All people who didn't want to roll a bucket full of dice abandoned this game Starter Set, day one.

[Murry]

i think u guys are going a little overboard with the whining. i can understand some of the stuff u guys are complaining about is rediculous. sitting there crying and saying your going to quit because a few figs have paintjobs u think are dumb or are a little out of scale isnt going to get u anywhere. maybe u guys should stop complaining so much and just play the game how it is and enjoy it. if the game is so bad u feel the need to come on here and whine about it all the time then maybe u shouldnt be playing it.

edit- for those of u who are complaing about rolling 18 dice at a time, noone said u had to do it like that. try rolling 5 or 6 at a time and counting hits. its a lot easier and a lot less cumbersome.

[MektonZero]

saying your going to quit because a few figs have paintjobs u think are dumb

A Me109 with a RAF paint scheme pretending to be a Spitfire is something anyone with half a brain thinks is dumb.

[Murry]

the 2 planes didnt look extremely diffrent what do u really expect wotc to do about that? they are going to make a fig not look like a the real thing just so it doesnt look like another already made fig. and what is the big deal if the 2 look the same? u can still tell them apart.

[simonr1978]

No, even with an RAF paint scheme it still looks like a Bf109.

The wings are wrong, tail is wrong, engine section and prop spinner wrong, canopy wrong, exhausts in the wrong place. It's not that hard to find 3-views of the two, placed side by side you should be able to see clear differences.

Aside from that, they're both single engine, single seat monoplanes with piston engines and conventional layouts. So were the vast majority of WWII fighters, so do you think it would be acceptable to see the same sculpt repainted to represent other fighters too?

If you think that's OK, the vast majority of tanks were tracked armoured fighting vehicles with cannon either in turrets or hull mounted (A similar generalised description). I still wouldn't want to see a Panther repainted olive green maquerading as a Sherman Firefly though, or would you consider this acceptable too?

[fifleche]

Not to mention the Bf109 was notorious for being small. So if you pretend to have any scale consideration, amongst equipment types for example, then the Spit, the hurricane & others should be BIGGER than the 109.

Put it next to a mustang & then a Zero (canopy to canopy) & see what I mean.

[GrimJesta]

From what I have seen FOW seems an awful lot like Warhammer marketing for WWII. Too many books, too much oriented towards selling instead of simple quality. However I do not know the game well so I find it hard to comment. That it was created by people with the Warhammer mindset and from that WD gaming world makes me suspicious straight off the top.

You're more spot on with the Warhammer thing that you may know. The original Flames of War was put out under a different name a long time ago. It was a variant of Warhammer 40K used for WWII wargaming, and GW put it out. The guys that made the game eventually got fed up with GW (as the story goes) and left to try their own hand at putting out a wargame. Thus we have FoW. That's why some of the rules in the game are suspiciously close to Warhammer.

I do disagree about the "simple quality" thing though./ They gave some of the best WWII miniatures out there, and ALL of their army lists and rules addition that they put out in book form are also for free download on the website. They're very much all about the People and quality. :)

But I can see why people wouldn't want to play the game. It's not as simple and quick to play as A&AM, and it requires much more commitment. You have to make the terrain, paint the models, and two tanks in FoW can net you an A&AM booster as far as price goes.


If you think that's OK, the vast majority of tanks were tracked armoured fighting vehicles with cannon either in turrets or hull mounted (A similar generalised description). I still wouldn't want to see a Panther repainted olive green maquerading as a Sherman Firefly though, or would you consider this acceptable too?

LOL. Amen to that. I actually didn't understand the initial rage over the Spitfire until someone put into perspective this way. Now I understand the sentiment.

-=Grim=-

[Lotus]

I put rage in the same category as WoTC's negligence: Unneccessary.

The game is good. Why ruin it? Just fix the screw ups and restore customer faith and satisfaction. Hunger for something diminishes when it starts to taste bad. The company should see that. Likewise, they need time to make the fix.

Do our choices only have to be that of Pollyanna or a cynic?

There's only one real solution. I hope we see it come to fruition.

And sure, it's just plastic, but so is most everything else...CDs, DVDs, half your car...the money's right. The product should be too.

[Vulturedoodle]

the 2 planes didnt look extremely diffrent what do u really expect wotc to do about that? they are going to make a fig not look like a the real thing just so it doesnt look like another already made fig. and what is the big deal if the 2 look the same? u can still tell them apart.
If you purchase a CD of, say, Shakira's newest, but when you open it and slip it into the player out comes, oh, Debbie Boone, are you gonna be annoyed? Are you going to want it replaced? Or are you going to just say, "well, it doesn't sound quite the same but...it's still music." Just wondering. There is a lot of the same commentary just getting rehashed and restated by others, but it's okay as long as it doesn't get violent.

--SEF

[NumberCruncher]

Guys, give it up.
Some people just can't be convinced with facts, logic and reason.
Though I have to admit that I'm getting a little tired of all the "Suck it up, quit whinning, there's nothing wrong, you're going to kill the game, etc" BS myself.

I've encountered this strange phenomena before when other blind purchase model games made similar errors.

The folks posting these type of comments are not discerning enough to care if they get sold a pig in a poke, but they LOVE to drop by and share with us what a bunch of fools we are for demanding our consumer rights.

If you get the wrong order at Jack In The Box, you go back in and give them a chance to give you what you paid for. {What they advertised and you purchased.}

They obviously don't.

It doesn't threaten JITB's survival, it's just common sense. {And, coincidentally, the law.}
Anyone who doesn't know or understand their rights either needs someone to care for them, {i.e. the mentally incompetent} or doesn't deserve them.

Everyone here is entitled to an opinion. {I'm morbidly fasinated by what some folks will swallow.} Just don't dignify the non-constructive ones with a response.

[Vulturedoodle]

Guys, give it up.
Some people just can't be convinced with facts, logic and reason.
Too true. I find myself continually amazed with those who complain about the complainers. The contradiction doesn't seem to register and it really tickles me. :)

I wonder whether those preaching acceptance are as accepting when their dinner order gets mixed up at the restaurant, or their paycheck is accidentally shorted, or their credit card is accidentally billed for some order they cancelled.

But I do get a little tired of the same ol' same ol'....

--SEF

[Stojakovic]

Tell that to the guys in the factory overseas.

LOL I second this.

I love to paint minis but I am not going to paint ever last one of them. For some reason the workers have a fetish with grey and fecal matter brown for german tanks. Yes they are painted which is one of the reasons why some came to this game or buy them. But for the love of god get some originality.

[NumberCruncher]

You know, I don't want to harp on this too much, but I've been reading and collecting WWII books on armor, aircraft and uniforms for twenty-eight years, not to mention all the documentaries I've watched and the museums I've visited.

The thing that gets me is that almost NONE of the miniature's paint jobs look like the originals.

So, I guess this is what you get when you farm out design, production and painting to a country that's kinda down on books, t.v. and the internet, if not history in general...

[Ruk]

I'm upset about the various size issues, and the wrong model being used for the Spitfire, but this is something I think is par for the course with collectible minis.

Luckily for me, I come from a cmg background, and not a historical wargame background. If it were not for these forums, I would not ever know that the Me109 got reused, or that the Croc is too big, or the AA gun too small. I'm just happy to play the game as a strategic excercise, as if it is merely a complicated chess game. I do not tie these figures to their historical counterparts, nor do I ever intend to.

I think it would make for a very not fun game if each piece accurately reflected the exact capabilities of the historic war material it was named for. This would lead to imbalance in the sides provided, and ultimately (I think) only one side would be desirable to play (the one that wins ALL the time, under "realistic" stats on the cards).
I think that some models come with over or underpowered stats in an attempt to balance the set for playability. Consider already that these are meant to be matched up in 100 and 150 point skirmishes to provide a fair game. If this was meant to show real war and real capabilities, we would not always play with the same amount of points on each side either. Each game would be scenario, and that is something I don't need this game to be. If I want to try my hand at leading the forces in historic matchups, I'll dig up the old cardboard chit wargames. We went through similar discussions on the old STG forums when players got upset that certain factions didn't live up to their cherished memories of how those armies seemed to them when they read the Tolkein books.

As for the paint jobs, they may not be perfect, but as a veteran collector of Mage Knight, Crimson Skies, LOTR TMG and Star Wars TMG, I think they did an ok job. Because I'm not aware of the correct paint schemes, the color choices don't bother me. And, since these small figures are painted as well as, or better than Mage Knight, and LOTR, I'm happy with them. However, that does not mean I think everyone should be happy with them, just that I do think AH has lived up to the statement that these are detailed and painted well.

I have picked up a few metal minis at my FLGS of the Spitfire, and I plan to paint them up to replace any Spitfires I open in boosters next month. However, I don't plan to complain about them, since I have no vested interest in turning this game into something else.

As long as the game is relatively balanced, and still fun to play, I'll stick with it.

Ruk

[4242david4242]

So, I guess this is what you get when you farm out design, production and painting to a country that's kinda down on books, t.v. and the internet, if not history in general...

Racism is not cool and it doesn't belong on this forum.

I agree that many of the AAM sculpts could be much much better, but that doesn't justify comments like this.

Bottom line is that you get what you pay for. Obviously, WOTC just wants to cut as many corners as it can in order to turn a bigger profit from this game. If WOTC hired more QC people and better artists, then the quality of the minis would improve -- whether they were made in China or anywhere else.

[polish_horsy]

well if it helps for a moment I assumed he meant the US. And race didn't enter my mind as I read it.

[NorthernRommel]

Racism is not cool and it doesn't belong on this forum.

I agree that many of the AAM sculpts could be much much better, but that doesn't justify comments like this.


I for one did not construe his comments as racist. The fact that WOTC farms its work out to China, Botswana, or Timbuktu in order to maximize profit is far more offensive.

[Huey 290]

Awful quick to play the race card wasn't it? He is probably referring to the suppression of communism on the subjects he mentioned and not on the intellectual level of Chinese people. PC or not, it is an accurate statement.

[Uncle_Joe]

Racism is not cool and it doesn't belong on this forum.

Oversensitivity to perceived racism is not cool and doesnt belong on this forum (or anywhere else in society for that matter). :rolleyes:

[4242david4242]

Awful quick to play the race card wasn't it? He is probably referring to the suppression of communism on the subjects he mentioned and not on the intellectual level of Chinese people. PC or not, it is an accurate statement.

You are kidding yourself if you think NumberCruncher's remark was directed at the Chinese government. The government is involved in a lot of things in China, but I'm pretty sure that quality control for a silly miniatures game is not one of them. Re-read his post and tell me he isn't referring to the intellectual level of the Chinese people.

[4242david4242]

Oversensitivity to perceived racism is not cool and doesnt belong on this forum (or anywhere else in society for that matter). :rolleyes:.

Then I guess it's lucky for you that Northern VA is pretty racially homogeneous, so you don't really need to worry yourself with sensitivity to "perceived racism."

This country has a long history of being the melting pot of the world. And one of the things that makes this country great is that so many different kinds of people have been able to find a way to live together, tolerate each other, and be sensitive to cultural differences. I'm not sure which kinds of behaviors undermine that greatness more -- the inadvertently racist comments by people like NumberCruncher or the defiant narrow-mindedness of people like you.

[Huey 290]

.

Then I guess it's lucky for you that Northern VA is pretty racially homogeneous, so you don't really need to worry yourself with sensitivity to "perceived racism."

This country has a long history of being the melting pot of the world. And one of the things that makes this country great is that so many different kinds of people have been able to find a way to live together, tolerate each other, and be sensitive to cultural differences. I'm not sure which kinds of behaviors undermine that greatness more -- inadvertently racist comments by people like NumberCruncher or defiant narrow-mindedness of people like you.

Rechecking your signature, I see you are from NYC. All my questions are answered, thank youi for your time.

[Kriegshund]

Re-read his post and tell me he isn't referring to the intellectual level of the Chinese people.

He isn't refering to the intellectual level of the Chinese people.

Indirect lack of knowledge, perhaps, due to a government famous for human rights violations that tries to control the information that is available to it's citizens so they don't have a billion of them revolting.

[4242david4242]

Rechecking your signature, I see you are from NYC. All my questions are answered, thank youi for your time.

Ah... ok. And this comment has what to do with what? Do you always conclude your debates with non sequiturs?

[Kriegshund]

Mods....Lock 'er up. We have strayed again......

[UnionMan]

Please bear in mind that it's important not to get too dogmatic about the color of tanks and uniforms. During wartime (and peacetime for that matter) there is great variation in the colors and paints used. Take a look at American khaki uniforms which ranged from light tan to almost dark green.

There are two words that responsible historians rarely use: "always" and "never." Exceptions to the rule are frequent and the colors of tanks and uniforms varied GREATLY (yes even in the German Army). It always kills me when I hear some self pronounced expert proclaim "all tanks of type BLAH were the color BLAH." Quite simply, that just ain't so.

Any other military collector will tell you the exact same thing.

[MektonZero]

Luckily for me, I come from a cmg background, and not a historical wargame background. If it were not for these forums, I would not ever know that the Me109 got reused, or that the Croc is too big, or the AA gun too small. I'm just happy to play the game as a strategic excercise, as if it is merely a complicated chess game.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I can play this strategy exercise just as well without actually having any of the minis in question; better in fact since I've got unlimited proxies and infinite map space in an electronic game (as well as point and click save/load and die rolling. The only reason to actually buy the minis for me was be to play with somewhat detailed and accurate minis, but if they're not going to be that detailed or accurate I may as well get some plastic army men, base them on cardboard and play with those on a tabletop using any of a number of free WW2 rulesets that are just as simple to play and don't have the inherent problems that A&AM has.

I think it would make for a very not fun game if each piece accurately reflected the exact capabilities of the historic war material it was named for. This would lead to imbalance in the sides provided, and ultimately (I think) only one side would be desirable to play (the one that wins ALL the time, under "realistic" stats on the cards).

ASL doesn't seem to have any major imbalance problems despite modeling every major weapon system WW2 fielded, and many of the minor ones as well in far more detail that A&AM could even dream of achieving. The intent of a point buy system is that it prevents any one side from winning all the time; the key is to balance units against each other.

If you're looking for imblance you've got no farther to go than WotC, power creep is already killing the balance this game had. When was the last time you saw someone suggest a German tournament build that contained baseline Def 4 infantry in any quantity?

I think that some models come with over or underpowered stats in an attempt to balance the set for playability.

For the most part, the stats aren't all that bad (except for the Easy Eight, which is vastly overarmored). The problem isn't the stats, it's the cost of the units. Quite a few of the units are cheaper than they should be, enough so that anyone who ignores that fact won't be a serious contender against a wide variety of builds that don't ignore it.

Consider already that these are meant to be matched up in 100 and 150 point skirmishes to provide a fair game. If this was meant to show real war and real capabilities, we would not always play with the same amount of points on each side either.

Real unit capabilities don't have anything to do with points given per side. We're modeling a battle, not the economic entirety of the second world war with one 7 minute skirmish. There are numerous occasions in WW2 where roughly equal forces fought on the squad/platoon scale in meeting engagements.

[Uncle_Joe]

Then I guess it's lucky for you that Northern VA is pretty racially homogeneous, so you don't really need to worry yourself with sensitivity to "perceived racism."

Obviously you've never visited Northern VA...Its about as racially diverse at it comes. There was a T-shirt being made by a local school that was going to say 'Welcome' in all the languages from the countries of students at that school. They stopped trying when it hit 200.

There is a difference between being hyper-sensitive to anything that seems to imply region, belief, or characteristics and 'racism'. Unfortunately too many people cant spot that difference and thus we have rampant recriminations of almost anything said.

[NorthernRommel]

.
This country has a long history of being the melting pot of the world. And one of the things that makes this country great is that so many different kinds of people have been able to find a way to live together, tolerate each other, and be sensitive to cultural differences. I'm not sure which kinds of behaviors undermine that greatness more -- the inadvertently racist comments by people like NumberCruncher or the defiant narrow-mindedness of people like you.

Actually thats why Canada is a great country cause we are not a melting pot, while the USA is a melting pot that prefers to use social pressure as part of social control. Political correctness does far more damage by controlling free speech. A little thing that WWII was supposedly fought to protect in case you forgot that part.

Gamers are rarely racist, just people with strong educated opinions (usually).

[Kriegshund]

Obviously you've never visited Northern VA...Its about as racially diverse at it comes. There was a T-shirt being made by a local school that was going to say 'Welcome' in all the languages from the countries of students at that school. They stopped trying when it hit 200.

There is a difference between being hyper-sensitive to anything that seems to imply region, belief, or characteristics and 'racism'. Unfortunately too many people cant spot that difference and thus we have rampant recriminations of almost anything said.

Don't you find it funny that someone who seems to be a little overly sensitive about perceived racism was so quick to prejudicially profile you based simply on the region in which you live, Uncle Joe?

[horacus]

wath, are you killing youselfs without me.
I'm feeling regected :p :p :p :p

[HerrPanzer]

There are two words that responsible historians rarely use: "always" and "never." Exceptions to the rule are frequent and the colors of tanks and uniforms varied GREATLY (yes even in the German Army). It always kills me when I hear some self pronounced expert proclaim "all tanks of type BLAH were the color BLAH." Quite simply, that just ain't so.
Any other military collector will tell you the exact same thing.

Is that not what WOtC doing making all the tigers and brumbars the exact same colors and even giving them the same numbers?

[horacus]

Well, It will be hard it they make them in diferen numbers and colors, that's the problem.

[4242david4242]

Don't you find it funny that someone who seems to be a little overly sensitive about perceived racism was so quick to prejudicially profile you based simply on the region in which you live, Uncle Joe?

"Prejudicially profile"?? And you say I'm the one that's overly sensitive? How exactly is making a statement about the region in which someone lives prejudicially profiling? The parts of northern VA that I've seen are uniformely white, middle-class with isolated pockets of minorities.

None of what I just said, or have ever said, "prejudicially profile[s]" Uncle_Joe. You're grapsing at straws, Kriegshund.

[Huey 290]

Ya, Thank God NYC doesn't have "pockets" of minority communities in it.... :D

[Kriegshund]

You're grapsing at straws, Kriegshund.

Hello Pot, Im the Kettle.....oh my....you're black.....

[HerrPanzer]

I disagree 4242dave. Like most liberal PC'ers you can't practice what you preach.

[HerrPanzer]

Most PC Screamers have a problem with reallity. And how did we get on this subject any way.... Oh yeah someone stated that China put out substandard products and is backward. Sorry Dave but that's the real world it is and it is.

[Vulturedoodle]

Folks, you know better than this. Please return to topic before the Mods rightly lock this thread.

--SEF

[NumberCruncher]

Gosh, I though he was refering to my enthusiasm for motor sports...

I'd say that my comment was an observation that the average Chinese person regardless of age, education or gender doesn't have ACCESS to the same level of information, references, entertainment, or many of the other FREEDOMS that we enjoy here in America, not to mention what Google just did to them for the Chinese Government, but someone would just jump all over me and claim I'm a cultural/national elitist, despite the fact that I've seen all those things for myself.

Oops, I just did. Rats!