vote: FAN OPTION #20 Bombers in Escort combat.

[Sinister]

As everyone may or may not know option # 2 on escorts was accpeted in an earlier poll.

To recap

posted April 06, 2004 10:03 AM
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Because you've asked for it here it is. Please vote officially for the fan book

Option # 1

Escorts and Intercepters like A&A:E, remembering the change in anti-air shot 1)Defender can choose fighter interseptors as well as
the attacker can choose fighter escorts.....
2)the defender rolls AA gun attack and apply any "1"'s
as hits (rolled for all airplanes separately!)-the
attacker can lose Bombers and/or fighters!
3)each defending plane/interseptor fires and hits on 2
(OR LESS!)-better chance for hitting!
4)each attacking fighter (escort) dogfights back with
"2" or less only!
5)then apply Strat bomb rolls as normal with surviving
bombers!

Many wanted to vote if attacking bombers could fire at a "1" in escort combat. So that's today's vote.

Should bombers fire at a "1" in escort/interceptor combat when making an SBR?

Yes or No

[DY]

Yes

[Anzio]

Sure.

God knows they had enough .50 calibers mounted on some of the damn things. Chin Turrets, Belly Turrets, Tail Gunners, Nose Gunners, Waist Gunners, Dorsal Turrets...did I leave anybody out? :D

Steve
SRG

[Krieghund]

Hell yes!!!!

[holywolfman]

YESSSSSSSSSS.....!!!!!! (Escort...Intersepts...Bombers strike back at a 1....Droool) :D

[Note]: We need this one to pass- DARN THOSE Long-Ranged, Heavy Bombing, Superfortresses! :mad:

Also remember, I also propose Superfortresses take 2 shots to destroy it (On AA fire ONLY !!!) (1)Hit On Intercept fire: If you had 2 successful rolls, you can choose (as the owner) 2 fighter/escorts or choose 1 Superfortress and 1 fighter! (The Superfortress WILL NEED 2 hits on AA gun fire ONLY!)

[Ie]: [If Usa had long-range with HB's with 2 Superfortresses and 1 escort fighter (feeling very LUCKY), against a GERMANY I.C. (which had 4 fighters on it)...Germany chooses to intercept with just 3 planes (because the German player (on her turn) wants to use (1) fighter to attack the Russian front)...German player rolls for AA Fire: : 1, 3... Germany would re-roll the 1 rolled: 4 (A Superfortress bomber dodged AA fire (No hit but also must return home [b]IMMEDIATELY with an unsuccessful bomb run)..then against (1) [fighter]: 3 (no hit).......(3) Intercept fighters Dogfight against (1) Fighter escort: Intercepts roll 3, 5, 5 (no hit)....escort rolls 2 (hit- a German intercept is shot down)....USA Bomber rolls to hit: 2 (miss)....USA then rolls for Bomb Damage/ 2d6 (Heavy Bomber): 4,5 (Germany loses 9 IPC- foiled German's plan for buying an extra tank and possible infantry!...But the German player sighs knowing it could've been more damage-the German player thanks her AA gunner and Fighter/Intersepts!] ;)

[Added notes]: Remember to mark the fighters used in intercepts/ escorts (with a token, chit, dice, etc.) since they CAN NOT move on thier next turn phase (may only defend-this represents they are refueling, rearming,landing, etc. )...this is also done so BOTH players will have to decide "Strategically" if they want to get thier fighters involved with the raids or not! [For Escorts, it helps prevent Bomber damages...for Intercepts, it helps "prevent" more damage coming in (possibly!)]

-Nick- smile.gif

[ April 13, 2004, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: holywolfman ]

[holywolfman]

Originally posted by GetStrafed:
Sure.

God knows they had enough .50 calibers mounted on some of the damn things. Chin Turrets, Belly Turrets, Tail Gunners, Nose Gunners, Waist Gunners, Dorsal Turrets...did I leave anybody out? :D

Steve
SRGYou forgot the "Partridge in the Pear tree!"-lol

-Nick- smile.gif

[sjcool]

Yes.

[Gorak]

sounds good

[Zero Pilot]

Yes. You guys convinced me. ~ZP

[Lebatron]

Yes. But regarding the old vote I think its a bad idea to allow escorts to hit at 2 also. In this case the allies could scare Germany from even using interceptors. Since the allies can afford to rebuild air. the old AAE rules setting escorts at 1 and interceptors at 2 was the smartest move. I had some ideas that I posted under the poll for fighters on SBR but no one made a comment accept hollywolfman. Basicaly I said no AA fire on the fighters on escort. And here are the combat numbers with jets involved.

Both sides have fighters- 1's vs 2's
attacker has jets - 2's vs 2's
defender has jets - 1's vs 3's
both have jets(cancel) - 1's vs 2's

[holywolfman]

I know Lebatron, I know it is hard sometimes to pitch ideas- I feel like a 'leper' sometimes- (no one wants to touch you or speak to you) I think you have good ideas too! I especially like the advantage with JETS (makes sense)- I tried pitching different angles too! I even tried escorts with a "1" and intersepts with "2"...I even suggested different "firing-order", etc. I think many people just like to keep things more simple-I guess! (makes sense)-It is hard to get used to changes :eek:

Any rate- hope to see more feedback for either ideas! :D

-Nick- smile.gif

[ April 13, 2004, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: holywolfman ]

[Reyoso]

:D yes ;)

[holywolfman]

Originally posted by Lebatron:
Yes. But regarding the old vote I think its a bad idea to allow escorts to hit at 2 also.. Just turn the table around for a sec: Would you want the Allies' planes to intersept with a "2" but your (German) fighter escorting with just a "1"? Do you see what I mean!

Either way-the Allies might have a slight advantage (can afford to lose more planes)...remember now fighters cost 10 IPC as well (instead of 12 from previous editions!) I think-this way- it keeps things more simple. HOWEVER- I do like your idea for beefing up 'Jet Power' tech!

Unless- keep fighters (both intercepts/escorts) at a "1" and beef them up if they get "JET POWER" tech (+1 on defense/normally and +1 when using them as fighter intersepts/interseptors)...and Bombers would need 2 "1"s to hit (need a "1" then re-roll to get "1" again like in Superfortresses)-at least the Bombers still get to defend themselves! {Fighters are still faster and more maneuverable than Bombers!}

It would also 'nudge' players for trying for 'JET POWER' (It is always the same: HB's, Rockets, Long Range... tongue.gif )

Hmmm... so much to think about! (lol)

-Nick- smile.gif

[ April 13, 2004, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: holywolfman ]

[Sinister]

its very hard to get exact specifics passed, in the end the rules will have to be tweaked to your liking on a gaming group level. I mean, everyone wanted escorts, but the details could be debated forever. I like what we've done and the book is going to be a great "what the fans want piece" but even I will be tweaking things for my own games.

[holywolfman]

I agree- so bottom line: Have fighter escorts/ intersepts...and even Bomber intervention too (that is a must as well!)

-Nick- smile.gif

[austinford]

yes

[DY]

Yeah, I'd kinda like to see escorts dropped back to a 1 if bombers also fire on a 1.

The thing to remember though is that for every additonal escort the attacker commits, that's 1 extra AA roll the defender gets.

[Lebatron]

Why does the defender get AA shots on escorts? In general didn't escorts and interceptors peel off when the bombers started to enter the AA fire zone? The SBR rules would make more sense to me if it was in two phases.

1st. air combat with escorts and bombers at 1, and interceptors at 2. Jets are covered in my other post above.

2nd. fighters break off and return to base. Surviving bombers continue on mission and get shot at by AA.

[ April 14, 2004, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: Lebatron ]

[halfadimecn]

Yes for bombers returning Interceptor Fire.

A question though--
How do intercepts interact with the Luftwaffe Dive bombers.

ie..Germans send 2 dive bombers to England. England has 1 fighter to intercept. Do the dive bombers count as escorts agaist the interceptors or are they considered bombers.

Just a question ;)

cn

[holywolfman]

You would 'choose' before mission started: either they would act like 'Bombers' or just participate as 'fighter escorts'! (Remember- Dive Bombers is an option rule!)

BTW: Lebatron, you do have good ideas there...especially with combining it with 'JET POWER' (The only thing I see is, you don't want to give the fighters (escorts/ intercepts) too much of an attack (by making it attack with a 3 with Jets)...you want it to be a 'tool' not like a regular attack per say! By making the fighters attack/intercept with a "1" would make it 'more fair' on both sides...and if a player would have a Jet Power tech- it would be "1"(17%) vs "2"(33%) : a slight advantage vs "2"(33%) vs "3"(50%)...would create far more caualities!

I was also thinking:

Making bombers "hit" on a "1" (too) BUT only difference- on an 8-sided die! [making it about a 12.5% chance of hitting!!!]

SO in recap:

__________________________________________________

1) Defender AA fires first (seperately against all attacking planes/ bombers and fighters)

2) Remove casualties

3) Remaining fighters (attacking 'escorts' and defending 'intercepts' fire at the same time/ needed "1"'s to hit! ("2" or less if have JET POWER!)

4) Bombers roll 8-sided die: need "1"'s to hit!

5) Remove casualties

6) Roll for Bombers on Strat. Bomb Run: (1d6/ 2d6 with HB's)

7)Defender lose amount of IPC's (MAX per I.C. region value/ per Bomber!)

__________________________________________________

What do you think?

-Nick- smile.gif

[ April 14, 2004, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: holywolfman ]

[moppar]

yes