Honor Bound Hero

[Uncle_Joe]

Well, after having played a few games with the new stuff (and with the Japanese), I think this guy has the potential to be HIDEOUS if more than one is allowed per army.

Consider: He has the same Camouflage SA as the Sniper. So, he cant be shot at except from adjacent...where he can jump out and use his 10 HtH or his 8 CA. Forget Defensive Fire. With the current rules, he ignores it completely....no way to stop him.

So, how would you deal a group of these guys on the objective? Flamethrowers perhaps, but beyond that? No M4(105) is going to help. Perhaps suicide troops that move adjacent to call the 81mm mortars?

All it takes a few 'host units' to get the Heros spawned into the right positions and the only way to kill them is to banzai into them at point blank range (talk about role reversal! ;) ).

Also, from what I can tell, he is just better than the SNLF Fanatic for the same cost. He loses 2 HtH dice, but 10 dice with no cover (and often with +1 for Banzai) is still extremely deadly. He gets 2 more CA dice which are priceless. He is completely immune to disruption as opposed to mostly immune, again meaning unstoppable Banzai charges. He cant be shot in terrain beyond one hex. Why would you ever use a SNLF Jedi again?

Am I missing something? Is he really that good? We've already decided to try Heroes limited to one per army and that might be enough to keep them in check. But with unlimited Heroes? Its going to get pretty disgusting very quickly!!

[Lynx7725]

Uncle_Joe: you are underplaying him. Put him in an army of SNLF paras. Drop the paras -- maybe 3 or 4 of them -- close after initial turns, then next turn, start spawning Heros. It just gets better with an Imperial Sergeant around.

Or stick the Imperial Sergeants into pillboxes and hunker down until the enemy gets close. Start spawning Heroes at that point and start assaulting.

(Hmm. Imperial Sergeant + HBH + Pillbox = 18 points, throw in 5 of each, that's 90 points... 2 SNLF paras just to strike into the rear. Sounds good?)

How to we stop it? I don't see a reliable way. The best is to limit the damage -- pick off the Imperial Sergeants fast, and then concentrate on wiping out the remaining infantry before too many Heroes spawn. That's an unreliable strategy at best.

OTOH, seems like your theory of national balance is holding true. Not much to worry about in terms of Japanese armour, after all.

EDIT: Oh, btw. Did I mention? I hate Heroes.

[Uncle_Joe]

I had been spawning him out of Imperial Snipers. Heroes make a GREAT defense mechanism for Snipers (all Snipers). If any vehicle comes sniffing around close enough to bother the Sniper, the Hero pops out (of where, I dont wanna know!) and blows up the vehicle.

Like I said, I'm only using one per army, but I'm just theorizing about the HbH at this point. But yeah, popping out of Paras is pretty hideous and Japanese Paras are cheap enough to drop 4 'hosts' and spawn 4 Heroes the next turn.

Yeah...this game is taking a turn for the worse. An Errata for the Heroes is going to quickly be necessary.

[Lynx7725]

Snipers make for an interesting army (because you got units on the table but the opponent can't shoot ANY of them....), but the real powerplant of HBH army is the Imperial Sergeant -- you need that Banzai Charge to get the most of the HBH. 'Sides, pillboxes are cheap...

Me, I'll just say ban the silly heroes. Even errata'ed to normal deployment or replacement of unit, the SAs (Resourceful and HtH 10 + Sup.Cam) makes these units broken.

[destructorofner]

What? Honour Bound HERO. I know not of these Heroes. Must be another VERY NASTY, FILTHY rumour! :rolleyes:

[Kaufschtick]

An Errata for the Heroes is going to quickly be necessary.

I think the errata for this unit will be very simple. Remove them from play, or...add the following SA... :D

"Handicap SA" This unit is to be used only by young children as a handicap piece to balance the playing field.

[XAos]

Possible fix for heros;
1) you can only have one in play at a time. You can pay for more, but if the first one never gets killed the rest cannot be played.
2) You can only play them if your entire force is the same nationality. So you have a choice to either play a cheesy mix of Russian/US/chinese etc forces or to play cheesy heros. And it's absolutly impossible to play the US hero in the same force as a Katyusha.

[shadowhooch]

How about this fix:

Heros can REPLACE any same nationality solider that has a face up disrupted counter in the beginning of the movement phase.

Then, Heros would essentially cost more and there is a risk of them not showing up. It also represents someone "stepping up to the plate" and leading the squad when times are tough.

My two cents.

As far as Honor Bound Hero, he can still be shot in open ground from a distance and I don't think he's any more rediculous than any other Hero.

[dredlox]

dude, the japanese hero is awesome. Too good in fact. The russian guy is even better... not even a horde of ss-pgs can beat him.

You roll the kv1/cossack to the objective late game. spawn the hero. He is now almost unhittable, even if he does get killed, he can super-sense, and he will mow down the pgs with his sword.

definitely MUST BE a 1 hero limit . I love crazy pieces more than most, but it just enters into the realm of total fantasy to have a team of multiple heroes.

WOTC, If i'm saying that... it must be over the top ;-)

[dredlox]

"As far as Honor Bound Hero, he can still be shot in open ground from a distance and I don't think he's any more rediculous than any other Hero."

Read him more closely, chief...he has superior camoflage like the snipers. That's not even to mention his armor 5 + fanatic

Fanatic + banzai + hand to hand = pretty damn broken

I would rank the heroes thusly

1) Russian
2) Japanese
3) American (he needs a team sort of built around him, otherwise his sa is 100% hit or miss)
4) German
5) English

[shadowhooch]

[QUOTE=dredlox]Read him more closely, chief...he has superior camoflage like the snipers. That's not even to mention his armor 5 + fanatic


Hey, I never said it would be EASY to kill him when he's in open ground. I'm just saying it's possible.

Anyway, could 2 Garands or a Flamethrower + SMLE (cost being equal to Hero at 8) take out an Honor Bound Hero if they were to do battle? I'm sure the odds favor the Hero, but it's probably only like 60/40.

I see this as WotCs weapon of choice for the Japanese to take out Heavy tanks. I like it.
You can destroy that Hero with your infantry. Yes, the Hero will take people down with him....but is that so different than what Planes are currently?(suicide attacks)

[Kaufschtick]

"As far as Honor Bound Hero, he can still be shot in open ground from a distance and I don't think he's any more rediculous than any other Hero."

Read him more closely...he has superior camoflage like the snipers. That's not even to mention his armor 5 + fanatic

Dredlox, to clarify, Shadowhooch is saying he can be hit in the open at range. Superior Camo is good only as long as the piece is in a cover hex, if I'm not mistaken. :)

It still sounds broken to me regardless... :)

[boersma8]

Do you think anyone at WoTC is noticing our cries of despair? Doyou think they've also come to the conclusion tah multiple heroes per army is a disgrace? Do you think they see they constitute the same madness as horses driving jeeps and banzai charging artillery etc.???? If they do, then where's that errata????!!!!!

I'll gladly use some houserules, but since I also play tournaments, an OFFICIAL errata would be extremely welcome!!!!!!!!!!

[dredlox]

I thought you said you could kill him in open ground at range. No biggie, i was just being silly, you probably didnt see his camoflage. I always screw up the new abilities - hey, u r talking to a guy who thought a higgins was a regular transport that could go through water ;-)

The only way I can see for infantry to take these guys out is to win init and BAR them from attacking. "you've been barred, biznatch". Like Uncle Joe said, you cant 105 them or you'll experience the wonders of a banzai/close assault (about a close assault 11). And before anyone says it (because someone always does), NO you cant stack infantry in the hex with the 105... the japanese hero is a fanatic. He ignores disruption. He'll perform a special move called "Off with your head"

Bars can be surprisingly useful. There's a new brit one too, the Bren. Maybe that's the play against the hero.

I'm really hoping it's 1 per team. It really, really, really needs to be. I'm the least complainy type of guy too

[dredlox]

ah (*clunk*). I see. When the hero is in open ground. Gotcha.

They probably wont be in open ground very long though if at all. You spawn them with a snlf paratrooper or so in cover, preferably near the objective

[Predator666]

Wats everyone upset about. This is the perfect unit that japan has been needing. A 5/5 defence with a good CA that could deal with most allied tanks. It has a pretty good hand to hand. I will not limit this unit even if I face it. Its a great AT unit for the japanese that can hold its own. I'm glad this is the unit the japs have. Plus it has sup. camo so it should be able to hide out when need be. Planes can still be a threat with all the good planes the allies have.

[dredlox]

um, sorry to keep blabbing about the hero, but another fairly cheap tactic with the hero is some pillboxes to move around. 2 points a piece, cheap.

[Kaufschtick]

I'll gladly use some houserules, but since I also play tournaments, an OFFICIAL errata would be extremely welcome!!!!!!!!!!

There really does need to be an official position on the Hero. I don't see them banning the piece from tournaments. Why wuld they have put it out to start with? I also don't see them changing the card right after it has come out. I guess that leaves a one per army the only thing they could do for tournaments. If they do not, I would have to suggest that Heros would dominate tournament play to the detriment of the game.

[Cruizin2000]

I really like the Japanese hero. Just put him with some SNLF Fanatics and look out!!! Those 5 defence guys are really tough to take out. Just add a Japanese sniper to the mix and maybe Sgt and it's a blood bath waiting to happen - as long as they are in cover of course!!

C2000

[Kaufschtick]

They probably wont be in open ground very long though if at all. You spawn them with a snlf paratrooper or so in cover, preferably near the objective

I'd have to agree with you on them not being in the open too much. Especially with the new fortifications.

[destructorofner]

"Handicap SA" This unit is to be used only by young children as a handicap piece to balance the playing field.

Very good idea. I could cross them over to Star Wars Minis when I play my 5 year old. They will fit right in. :D

[Cruizin2000]

May the Farce Be with You!!

Yes, Heros seem alittle to kid-like/Mage Knighish to me.

C2000

[Uncle_Joe]

Dont get me wrong. In theory, I dont mind Japan having a tough unit that has good CA capability. They really need it.

But allowing unlimited numbers will simply result in, well, unlimited numbers. These guys (all the Heroes, really) are just too good for their cost. They are only going to 'spawn' where you need them (so they'll rarely be out of position) and their combat capabilities exceed their cost.

I just see no reason NOT to put a group of HB Heroes with any Japanese army. The same is true of the Russians and to a lesser extent, the Germans. US and Brit Heroes, while good, dont benefit quite as much for quantity as the the Axis and Russian Heroes.

[Hum_35711]

I like the HbH. It is exactly what the Japanese need. They were essentially an unplayably weak country before and this gives them a chance to shine, or at least see some serious play. I am 100% happy with this piece. If you check some of my earlier posts you will see that I was calling for this sort of piece as early as 6 months ago. I don't at all see what the problem is. The Japanese finally get the CA they need, and superior camoflage adds an interesting tactic to the game. There are PLENTY of counters to the HbH. I can think of a few. It's not as though this piece breaks the game. If anything it only brings Japan up to par with some of the other countries. In honesty Japan is actually still weak compared to the other 4 main countries, simply because the options so far as Japan army builds are still very limited.

[Hum_35711]

It's a little early to start complaining about the new pieces from a 'game mechanics' viewpoint. Most of us haven't even had a chance to try them out. Play 10 games, give the Heroes a chance. Then if you don't like them you can complain. But at this point, people are complaining about the Heroes just because they don't like the concept, without even giving it a try. Personally, my opinion is, if you don't like them, don't use them. But I really like the Heroes and I'm going to use at least 1 in every army.

[shadowhooch]

I like the HbH. It is exactly what the Japanese need. They were essentially an unplayably weak country before and this gives them a chance to shine, or at least see some serious play. I am 100% happy with this piece. If you check some of my earlier posts you will see that I was calling for this sort of piece as early as 6 months ago. I don't at all see what the problem is. The Japanese finally get the CA they need, and superior camoflage adds an interesting tactic to the game. There are PLENTY of counters to the HbH. I can think of a few. It's not as though this piece breaks the game. If anything it only brings Japan up to par with some of the other countries. In honesty Japan is actually still weak compared to the other 4 main countries, simply because the options are far as Japan army builds are still very limited.

I agree. Though I don't like the fact that it makes the Fanatic overcosted. Anyway, it still can't catch the Rhino (which is probably what you will be facing the majority of the time).

[Hum_35711]

again, if you think the HbH is overpowered, here are some suggestions for killing him:

1. drop an airplane on him and strafe him. (the same thing we've all been doing to snipers all along).

2. run a cheap armoured car or jeep up to him, that you don't mind losing, and then call in the mortars. (you'll have to check on the legality of that)

3. spawn your own hero right next to him, and watch them duke it out (epic)
"Luke, I am your father"

4. flame-thrower him

anyway, once we get used to the HbH, people will learn how to deal with him effectively.

[Lynx7725]

But allowing unlimited numbers will simply result in, well, unlimited numbers. These guys (all the Heroes, really) are just too good for their cost. They are only going to 'spawn' where you need them (so they'll rarely be out of position) and their combat capabilities exceed their cost.
"When everyone's a hero, nobody's a hero"?

[Uncle_Joe]

It's a little early to start complaining about the new pieces from a 'game mechanics' viewpoint. Most of us haven't even had a chance to try them out. Play 10 games, give the Heroes a chance. Then if you don't like them you can complain

I'm sorry, but its not rocket science here. A simple comparison of the stats and abilities of some units to others makes it quite apparent that some animals are more equal than others.

I dont have to play 10 games to know that for the same cost, the HB Hero is considerably better than the SNLF Fanatic. He does basically the exact same thing, only better. Now obviously there have to be a few 'host units', but the majority of any Japanese infantry force 'should' end up being Heroes. Why not?

[Hum_35711]

I dont have to play 10 games

There are plenty of different tactics to use in the game. If you want to try using an "Hero Heavy" build for the Japanese, that's just 1 out of many possible things you can do.

Also, there have ALWAYS been undercosted and overpowered units, ever since the Sherman in set I. People adapted to it, and came up with new strategies and tactics to deal with it. It is exactly the same with the HbH. After 10 games you will have all the tactics down. You will know every possible way to deal with the HbH, and because you know how to deal with him, he won't seem so tough or 'broken' anymore.

It's easy to look at the piece and go "Wow he's tough", but trust me people will easily adapt their strategies and tactics to take him out. No big deal.

[Hum_35711]

Personally I feel the HbH nicely compliments many already existing builds and strategies for the Japanese army. I build I often use for the Japanese is:

5 Paratroopers = 25 points
8 Fanatics = 56 points
2 Sergeants = 18 points

99 points.

I can definately say that I'm going to add some HbH to this build. And I think that the HbH will really help out and compliment my existing build very well. now I finally get some CA to help hold the objective against armour. And if my paratroops in the rear get into trouble I can spawn a hero to help them out. Perfect.

[Uncle_Joe]

I think you are missing the point. He's not unkillable. Shermans arent unkillable. SS-Pgr arent unkillable.

BUT they dominate the game. They are almost always present. They obviate the need for other units. They become the standard against which future units must compete (leading to further power-creep or else more useless units).

So, the point is that unless these guys are limited in some way, they will quickly become the focus of Japanese infantry armies. And that is something that just seems very wrong for a 'Hero' unit.

[shadowhooch]

Maybe this has been mentioned somewhere else. I've asked the question in the Q&A, but I believe I know the answer. A Hero is a soldier, so it could in fact spawn more Hero's from your build.

So you really could have a build of 2 Arisakas and 11 Heros. First, the Arisakas spawn 2 of your Heros. Then on subsequent turns, you can spawn more Hero's from your spawned Hero's. It's like cancer. Hero's will outnumber normal infantry.

[Uncle_Joe]

Personally I feel the HbH nicely compliments many already existing builds and strategies for the Japanese army. I build I often use for the Japanese is:

5 Paratroopers = 25 points
8 Fanatics = 56 points
2 Sergeants = 18 points

99 points.

I can definately say that I'm going to add some HbH to this build. And I think that the HbH will really help out and compliment my existing build very well. now I finally get some CA to help hold the objective against armour. And if my paratroops in the rear get into trouble I can spawn a hero to help them out. Perfect.

OF COURSE you are going to add HbH's to this build. Thats the whole point. When you finally optimize it out, it will probably be close to 1 to 1 replacement of Fanatics with HbHs. Because hes BETTER for the same cost. You might keep one or two Fanatics as a host unit, but the Paras and Sergeants should suffice nicely.

[Uncle_Joe]

Maybe this has been mentioned somewhere else. I've asked the question in the Q&A, but I believe I know the answer. A Hero is a soldier, so it could in fact spawn more Hero's from your build.

Yep, Heroic Mitosis...woo-hoo!!

[Hum_35711]

I think you are missing the point. He's not unkillable. Shermans arent unkillable. SS-Pgr arent unkillable.

BUT they dominate the game. They are almost always present. They obviate the need for other units. They become the standard against which future units must compete (leading to further power-creep or else more useless units).

So, the point is that unless these guys are limited in some way, they will quickly become the focus of Japanese infantry armies. And that is something that just seems very wrong for a 'Hero' unit.

I agree with you, but I don't see what's bad about this at all. Yes, strong units are going to dominate the game. They're strong. Yes the Heroes are going to be very useful. They're heroic. If they weren't very strong, they wouldn't be very heroic. If I had a 'hero' piece that was only average in strength, i'd be a bit dissapointed, because when I think of a hero he's someone who rises to the occasion and gets things done. During WWII many very brave men did incredible things. Often they only had their bravery and natural abilities to see them through. The strength of the Hero pieces reflects that nicely.

[Hum_35711]

OF COURSE you are going to add HbH's to this build. Thats the whole point. When you finally optimize it out, it will probably be close to 1 to 1 replacement of Fanatics with HbHs. Because hes BETTER for the same cost. You might keep one or two Fanatics as a host unit, but the Paras and Sergeants should suffice nicely.

Yes. Again, I don't see what is bad about this. Are you saying that it's unrealistic?

[shadowhooch]

I agree with you, but I don't see what's bad about this at all. Yes, strong units are going to dominate the game. They're strong. Yes the Heroes are going to be very useful. They're heroic. If they weren't very strong, they wouldn't be very heroic. If I had a 'hero' piece that was only average in strength, i'd be a bit dissapointed, because when I think of a hero he's someone who rises to the occasion and gets things done. During WWII many very brave men did incredible things. Often they only had their bravery and natural abilities to see them through. The strength of the Hero pieces reflects that nicely.

I think the name "Hero" is the problem. A "Hero" is someone who is rare and rises to the occasion to perform better than his counterparts. If Heros outnumber common infantry, they aren't really "Heros". They are a superior infantry squad and should be named Veterans and should be deployed normally.

[Kriegshund]

It's a little early to start complaining about the new pieces from a 'game mechanics' viewpoint. Most of us haven't even had a chance to try them out. Play 10 games, give the Heroes a chance. Then if you don't like them you can complain. But at this point, people are complaining about the Heroes just because they don't like the concept, without even giving it a try.

That is like asking me to place my hand into a flame 10 times before I have the right to determine if it will burn. Many of us have played many games since the release of the Base Set. I have literally played several hundred games. It is not difficult to extrapolate the effect of these units on the game. Cheese is cheese, I don't have to taste it 10 times to figure it out.

The Heroes are a gimmick introduced by developers that are obviously influenced by CCG and fantasy based minature gaming, and in my opinion don't belong in a tactical simulation of WWII.....even if it is "lite" or "beer and pretzels".

Of course people who are less concerned with historical wargaming, and are just looking to pWN their opponents with the latest lEET unit will love the Heroes Im sure.......

[Hum_35711]

I think the name "Hero" is the problem. A "Hero" is someone who is rare and rises to the occasion to perform better than his counterparts. If Heros outnumber common infantry, they aren't really "Heros". They are a superior infantry squad and should be named Veterans and should be deployed normally.

Yes but this is easily resolved by using your imagination. Get a little fun out of playing and imagine that you're commanding one of the best companies in the entire Japanese army. Your company is known throughout the empire. When a tough job needs doing, they send in your elite unit to take care of it. All of your troops are battle-hardened veterans, and when push comes to shove, many, if not all of them, will put it all on the line. Take the objective or die trying! Banzai!

Come on guys, the game is meant to be fun.

[Uncle_Joe]

'Hero' as a name is only part of the problem. But the real problem is game balance. Why bother having 183 units to choose from when only 20 or so might be worth playing? If the Hero is better than the Fanatic, for the same mission, and the same cost, isnt it PAINFULLY obvious that he is underpriced?

Why not make him 1 point? He would still be strong and doing heroic things and being the hero. So why not 1 point? That would surely better, right?

Didnt we learn from Shermans and SS-Pgr that units that are too cost effective have negative effects on the game in the long-term? I guess not.

The Hero concept it OK. Having them be cost-effective is OK if there is a limit. If there is no limit, it just becomes another broken unit that will be in nearly every build. How is that a good thing?

[Hum_35711]

That is like asking me to place my hand into a flame 10 times before I have the right to determine if it will burn. Many of us have played many games since the release of the Base Set. I have literally played several hundred games. It is not difficult to extrapolate the effect of these units on the game. Cheese is cheese, I don't have to taste it 10 times to figure it out.

The Heroes are a gimmick introduced by developers that are obviously influenced by CCG and fantasy based minature gaming, and in my opinion don't belong in a tactical simulation of WWII.....even if it is "lite" or "beer and pretzels".

Of course people who are less concerned with historical wargaming, and are just looking to pWN their opponents with the latest lEET unit will love the Heroes Im sure.......

When you criticize a unit without really having played with it, or against it. The tendency is to overstate everything.

[shadowhooch]

Yes but this is easily resolved by using your imagination. Get a little fun out of playing and imagine that you're commanding one of the best companies in the entire Japanese army. Your company is known throughout the empire. When a tough job needs doing, they send in your elite unit to take care of it. All of your troops are battle-hardened veterans, and when push comes to shove, many, if not all of them, will put it all on the line. Take the objective or die trying! Banzai!

Come on guys, the game is meant to be fun.

Imagination is for fantasy games like Star Wars, not historically based games. ;)

[Hum_35711]

Imagination is for fantasy games like Star Wars, not historically based games. ;)

That is the sadest thing I've heard in a long time. :( you guys are so negative. I'm going to go cry in the bathroom where none of you can hear me.

[shadowhooch]

The Hero concept it OK. Having them be cost-effective is OK if there is a limit. If there is no limit, it just becomes another broken unit that will be in nearly every build. How is that a good thing?

I don't think a single person on this forum would "Boo Hoo" over an errata being released that limits Hero's to 1 per army.

In fact, I think it would be a collective sigh of relief.

It's such a simple solution...........

(If you are actually one of those people who would Boo Hoo over that rule, raise your hand)

[Kriegshund]

Come on guys, the game is meant to be fun.

It was also marketed as historically authentic WWII skirmish game.....not Imperial Super Duper Starship "Beam me down, Scotty" I PwNeD jOo LeET hOnOR BoUNd TRooPeRS!!

[Uncle_Joe]

Of course people who are less concerned with historical wargaming, and are just looking to pWN their opponents with the latest lEET unit will love the Heroes Im sure.......

A game this lite, I'm not even TOO terribly concerned about being able to play completely historically. I know that is not going to happen with these mechanics.

But taking it clearly into the realm of fantasy isnt what I'm looking for either. I have Mage Knight. I have MtG. I have plenty of choices for a fantasy or sci-fi based game system. WW2 isnt meant to be one of them (unless you are playing Wolfenstein or somesuch! ;) ).

I would prefer for the game not going into the realm of fantasy but even there, I could live with some of it if the costs matched the capabilities. For example, I'm not thrilled with the way Paras deploy, but they are expensive and (IMO) they dont break the game. The mechanic is silly, but I suspend some disbelief and play on. Mechanics like the Hero 'break' the game by taking out it of the hands of vehicles, squads, support weapons and NCOs, and putting it into the hands of 'champions'.

And again, one Heroic guy in the group I can live with. Having armies of them swarming around removes interesting options in army creation (Heroes are simply better) and removes any last notions of a WW2 skirmish game (EVERYONE is a Hero...woo-hoo!).

[Origen]

I'm not, but right now I am imagining Hum crying in his bathroom. :)

In all seriousness, the HbH and the Veteran Tiger, the Sherman and the SSPgr, are all excellent units. The only issue is the points cost. Points are there to balance the game, so if they are too far off you get unbalanced games and/or useless units. An errata'd points cost for all these units would be easy, cheap to implement, and would fix the problem muy pronto. Just a suggestion.

[Kriegshund]

When you criticize a unit without really having played with it, or against it. The tendency is to overstate everything.

When you sing the praises of a unit without really having played with it, or against it, the tendency is to understate everything to avoid rational criticism.

[Hum_35711]

Didnt we learn from Shermans and SS-Pgr that units that are too cost effective have negative effects on the game in the long-term? I guess not.

the HbH is resonably priced when compared to the underpriced units in earlier sets like the Shermans and SSPG. The developers are clearly making a huge effort to balance the game out, by taking these underpriced units into careful consideration. This has been done pretty much across the board in set IV. For instance, many cheap but effective tank killers have been introduced to counter the Sherman swarm. Sure, some pieces from the first 3 sets are now going to be overpriced. What did you think was going to happen? But I think overall the game is becoming more balanced as the result of low point cost on some of the very strong new units. These new units will counter the previously undercosted units from the first 3 sets.

I'm absolutely not saying that this is an ideal situation. It's not. But honestly, how were you expecting them to resolve balancing issues? I think overall they've got the right idea, and at least they are addressing it, by adding more very competitive units. You say that only something like 20 out of 180 units are competitive. Then why complain when they add 1 more competitive unit to the roster? Hopefully this trend will continue into later sets. Sure you will have a lot of overpriced units from the first 3 sets that won't see much play, but every new game has its bugs, and as long as it gets resolved in the end (sooner rather than later I hope), I'll be pleased. I think the developers are on the right track, with this set.

Again, try playing it a bit, then maybe you will agree with me

[Hum_35711]

It was also marketed as historically authentic WWII skirmish game.....not Imperial Super Duper Starship "Beam me down, Scotty" I PwNeD jOo LeET hOnOR BoUNd TRooPeRS!!

I hate to **** on this, but guess what. During WWII there were actual Heroes who accomplished amazing things. There were a lot of very brave men who accomplished amazing things. It really happened, in real life. Check the records for commendations, awards for bravery, every possible medal for every country involved. You will find thousand and thousands of people listed. A lot of these people were Soooo brave that it's hard to even grasp.

I don't understand how you can rationalize completely excluding these people and their obvious contributions from a WWII strategy/tactics game.

From what I can tell, the single biggest and most popular complaint against Heroes so far, is that they aren't realistic. Again, to that, I say, check any list of commendations for virtually any battle at any time during the war. You'll find genuine heroes listed there.

[Kriegshund]

I hate to **** on this, but guess what. During WWII there were actual Heroes who accomplished amazing things. There were a lot of very brave men who accomplished amazing things. It really happened, in real life.

Of course...and nobody holds the above in contention.....only the unreasonable powergaming way in which it is implemented into the game.

[Colonel_Coo]

I hate to **** on this, but guess what. During WWII there were actual Heroes who accomplished amazing things. There were a lot of very brave men who accomplished amazing things. It really happened, in real life. Check the records for commendations, awards for bravery, every possible medal for every country involved. You will find thousand and thousands of people listed. A lot of these people were Soooo brave that it's hard to even grasp.

I don't understand how you can rationalize completely excluding these people and their obvious contributions from a WWII strategy/tactics game.

From what I can tell, the single biggest and most popular complaint against Heroes so far, is that they aren't realistic. Again, to that, I say, check any list of commendations for virtually any battle at any time during the war. You'll find genuine heroes listed there.
Actually the big complaint is that you can pre-plan to have a hero and buy them in numbers.

[Hum_35711]

Actually the big complaint is that you can pre-plan to have a hero and buy them in numbers.

I guess that's a reasonable complaint. But if you consider the structure of the game, it's really a minor one. Personally, in a game I'm playing, I like to be able to control what's going to happen. When a game has too many random elements, the strategies and tactics suffer. When you have something you can't plan for, like a hero randomly appearing somewhere, I think the game suffers a great deal.

There are already about 100 things in the game, that you as the armchair general control, that you wouldn't be able to control in real life. This is just 1 more of those things.

[edit: what the heck is an 'airchair general' anyway whooh]

[Kriegshund]

too short uggaabbooga
The Hero concept it OK. Having them be cost-effective is OK if there is a limit. If there is no limit, it just becomes another broken unit that will be in nearly every build. How is that a good thing?

According to this answer from Steve, there doesn't seem to be a limit. (http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?t=12331)

From reading the rules, a Hero is a soldier. So it can spawn another Hero correct?

Also, there is no Soldier type limitation is there? So AT guns & BMWs can also spawn Hero's correct?
Correct.

Steve

[Kriegshund]

Given a build of

Imperial Sergeant x1
Honor Bound Hero x13

Little Japanese boy askes his grandfather who was an Imperial Sergeant during the war....

"Grandpa, were you a Hero in the war?

"No my boy, but I served in a company of Heroes!"

Blah.... :mad:

[Hum_35711]

I think this whole argument stems from the fact that different people have different philosophical perspectives.

Some people are looking at the Heroes and saying:
"Heroes are very strong. They will be included in a lot of army builds. How is that a good thing?"

Whereas other people are looking at it and saying:
"Heroes are very strong. They will be included in a lot of army builds. Why is that a bad thing?"

I guess, I just feel that my glass is always half-full.

When a new set comes out my first reaction is to find some of the units that look pretty fun, or pretty tough, or have interesting SAs and actually play with them and have fun.

Other people are looking at this and trying to find reasons not to use these pieces.

The negativity is so thick that you could cut it with a chain saw.

I have new toys. Whoohooo! I'm so excited. I'm going to play with them, and I'm not going to let you squeltch my immature and boyish enthusiasm.

Some of you guys are pretty stuffy for a bunch of 30-50 year old men who still play with toys. Excuse me. I didn't mean to say toys. I meant to say: 'historically accurate painted scale models'. my mistake.

I agree, it's too bad that the HbH is going to mostly replace the SNLF Fanatic. But keep in mind the HbH is a 1942 unit and the Fanatic is 1939. Also the Fanatic has a slightly higher Hand to Hand and short range attack. Nothing is stopping you from using a few Fanatics.

[Lynx7725]

That was uncalled for, y'know.

Uncle Joe and Wardog do have their points. A lot of their concern comes from a geniue reluctance to see a game they like spiral downwards in power creep.

The thing is, this is a game based on a historical set of events. Essentially, there will exist a point where WotC cannot produce any more units simply because there aren't any more units during the war that are worth producing. I personally rather see AAM gradually and gracefully reach that stage rather than get prematurely aborted because of power creep issues.

The Hero mechanism is, IMO, a power creep mechanism. It may not be in yours and certainly you are entitled to your opinion. But if we get more units in subsequent sets that specifically addresses, builds upon or counters the Hero mechanism, then yes, we will have seen power creep.

Personally, I object to the idea of Heroes in this game because IRL, heroism isn't something that is treated so... can't find a word. It's a matter of principle and I certainly won't force my principle on you.

[Hum_35711]

That was uncalled for, y'know.


Sorry, I'm honestly not trying to offend anyone at all. I really like you guys.

It's just everyone is attacking the Heroes concept, and I find not very many people are sticking up for it. So I am going to stick up for it. I really like the concept and I feel that it deserves an adequate defence.

I agree with you, this is a big instance of 'power creep'. I don't like 'power creep' more than anyone does. I just don't see what other viable options the WoTC developers have at this point.

More competitive low cost units need to be introduced with each new set, to balance out some of the early mistakes they made with some of the undercosted units from the first 3 sets.

If this is how they intend to resolve balancing issues from the first 3 sets, then I am happy, so long as it works. Personally I think that it will work, as long as we are all patient enough to see AAM through 2 or 3 more sets.

[Hum_35711]

When it's all over and done with, sure you're going to have a lot of unplayable units from the first 3 sets, that just sit around and collect dust. But lets face it, there's not much you can do to make most of those units playable at this point. Reduce their point cost down to 1 point?

[polish_horsy]

you don't fix mistakes by making more of them. you fix the earlier mistake.

[Hum_35711]

A lot of people will say that introducing more broken units is just going to result in a game that is all-round broken.

But look at it this way, if all of the units are broken, then none of them are.

Or something like that. I'm not an expert on 'double-talk', but I damn well wish I was.

[shadowhooch]

When it's all over and done with, sure you're going to have a lot of unplayable units from the first 3 sets, that just sit around and collect dust. But lets face it, there's not much you can do to make most of those units playable at this point. Reduce their point cost down to 1 point?

See my suggestion box thread. A simple New Cost list for old units would do the trick nicely (to be included in that little brochure contained in every booster).

Everyone would be much happier and it would show that WotC actually cares about game balance. Game Balance is Numero Uno of importance to me (even above historical accuracy).

[Hum_35711]

They're fixing the earlier mistakes, by taking the old undercosted units into consideration when they decide on the cost of the new units. So when all the new units are a bit undercosted the old ones will be fixed.

[Hum_35711]

A simple New Cost list for old units would do the trick nicely.

That would work too. Probably work even better. I just don't think it's going to happen, because it's a more complicated, time consuming and more expensive way to fix the same problems.

[polish_horsy]

They're fixing the earlier mistakes, by taking the old undercosted units into consideration when they decide on the cost of the new units. So when all the new units are a bit undercosted the old ones will be fixed.

???

so to fix 2-5 bad units they invalidate the other 130 units in the first three sets by making us buy 130 new ones...

got it. thanks. that makes a lot of sense. glad I did not pre-order.

[Hum_35711]

???

so to fix 2-5 bad units they invalidate the other 130 units in the first three sets by making us buy 130 new ones...

got it. thanks. that makes a lot of sense. glad I did not pre-order.

See again, from my point of view, when you buy a new set, it's nice to get a few really strong units that stir the game up a bit and force people to come up with new strategies and tactics. Thats what keeps the game fresh. That's what's so good about the new Heroes. The new game mechanic that has been added with set IV keeps the game fresh and gives everyone something new to think about.

And there is a lot of exaggeration going on. having 5 new heroes is not suddenly going to make 100 other pieces obsolete. from my point of view the HbH makes the Fanatic partially obsolete (that is 1 piece). It's the same for every single other hero, they replace maybe 1 or 2 pieces each. No Big Deal.

[Lynx7725]

Sorry, I'm honestly not trying to offend anyone at all. I really like you guys.
Shrug. Helps to walk away from the keyboard at times.

It's just everyone is attacking the Heroes concept, and I find not very many people are sticking up for it. So I am going to stick up for it. I really like the concept and I feel that it deserves an adequate defence.
And there is... justifiable grounds for the vocal portion of this forum (which in turn is just a portion of all AAM players) to have a negative impression of Heroes. The details had been hashed over and over again these last few days so I won't go through all of them.

The problem get compounded when the units have such horrendously power SAs. Even had it not been a Hero, at its current stats and SA (sans Hero), the HBH is very close if not outright a broken unit. Even without the spawning ability AND the disruption immunity, a HBH at 7 points is an almost sure shoo-in to any Axis army, never mind Japanese army.

As an SA, Hero itself is debatable, but... might be workable. I might dislike it intellectually but on its own it's ok.

Hero combined with very powerful SA such as Improvision, Superior Camo/ CA 8/ HtH 10, even Vast Experience.... is very unacceptable at the pointages they have been marked with. Double the cost, or adjustment to Hero deployment might have mitigated it, but neither happened and we are stuck with this.

At the end of the day, we are sort of stuck with what WotC decides to put out -- such as these Heros with too powerful abilities. So we try to make do with what we can, and one way is simply to ignore the Hero units.

More competitive low cost units need to be introduced with each new set, to balance out some of the early mistakes they made with some of the undercosted units from the first 3 sets.

If this is how they intend to resolve balancing issues from the first 3 sets, then I am happy, so long as it works. Personally I think that it will work, as long as we are all patient enough to see AAM through 2 or 3 more sets.
Introducing more competitive low-cost unit may be wise in DDM (and it was done, along with a revision in format), but in a genre where there is easily obtained and independently researched data on the actual units, it doesn't quite work IMO. Personally, I prefer an Errata, especially in point value.

A good example is the Sd. Kfz. 251/1 and the newly released Sd. Kfz. 250. Historically both are utilized in the same time period, and neither AFAIK was produced in greater number.

As much as I appreciate the apparent effort of the team to bring more usability to transports, I'm still faced with the fact that competitively, I'm stuck with one useless unit from Set I. Which doesn't exactly makes me happy.. which is one big reason why I don't play competitively. It's just ulcer-inducing.

But this is really design philiosphy, and we don't really have insights into the design constraints the WotC team is under.

[shadowhooch]

That would work too. Probably work even better. I just don't think it's going to happen, because it's a more complicated, time consuming and more expensive way to fix the problems.

You really think so?

Expense? Another sheet of paper on those brochures isn't that much. If it is, just provide a link to their website for a revised cost sheet for printout.

Complicated? I think it's obvious which units need to be changed. I'm sure they have a formula they use or some method to come up with costs of units(at least I hope so).
Anyway, they don't have to get it COMPLETELY right the first time. Just an improvement in costs for some units would help gameplay and player morale.
I'm sure that this forum will voice their opinion if some of the costs are still wrong. They should use us for input.

Time? They take time to answer rule questions everyday (which is much appreciated). It'd wouldn't take long to review old unit costs (at least the major cases) with every new release.

To me, not so hard, not so expensive, not so time consuming.

[Colonel_Coo]

Easiest fix for the Hero issues and other uber units is

UNIQUE 100: your army may only contain one of these units per 100 points of build

or for weaker versions

UNIQUE 50: your army may only contain one of these units per 50 points of build.

[Lynx7725]

Colonel Coo: Personally think Unique 100 is too draconic. I suggest going for Unique 50 if you need to.

Though I also suggest Unique Zero: Your Army Can Only Contain Zero of these Units... :D

[Hum_35711]

Introducing more competitive low-cost unit may be wise in DDM (and it was done, along with a revision in format), but in a genre where there is easily obtained and independently researched data on the actual units, it doesn't quite work....

I'm not talking about making the pieces less historically accurate. I'm talking about making them cheaper point wise.


As much as I appreciate the apparent effort of the team to bring more usability to transports, I'm still faced with the fact that competitively, I'm stuck with one useless unit from Set I.


See, here is a perfect example. The half-tracks were overpriced. Everyone complained. So the developers actually listened to us and made a cheaper version. So now people will complain that it makes the first half-track obsolete.

Again, the reason they did it this way instead of issuing a reprice list for the first half track is because it is cheaper for them to release a whole new vehicle. At the end of the day, they are still a corporation and still concerned with maximizing profits.

Is that the best way of doing things? No. But honestly, I don't care as long as the problems get fixed. Sell your old half-tracks on Ebay. let you children play with them. attach them to fishing wire and go fly-fishing.

[Kriegshund]

Though I also suggest Unique Zero: Your Army Can Only Contain Zero of these Units... :D


DING DING DING DING.....give the man a prize for the best idea in the thread so far!!!

[Lynx7725]

*Bows* :D

(Darn, didn't know quick replies need to be of 10 characters or more. :) )

[shadowhooch]

[/QUOTE]
Again, the reason they did it this way instead of issuing a reprice list for the first half track is because it is cheaper for them to release a whole new vehicle. At the end of the day, they are still a corporation and still concerned with maximizing profits.
[/QUOTE]

I agree with you. I also believe that is what they are doing. But I don't think they are increasing their sales by doing it.

Just as many people would still buy the Veteran Tiger and the Sdf 250 if they came out with a revised cost for the Tiger I and the Sdf 251 to make them competitive. I don't think superior units = more sales. I think thoughtful and supportive gameplay and units with unique abilities = more sales.

[Lynx7725]

More long-term sales, at any rate.

I have a sneaking suspicion that WotC's upper management views on AAM is not that great. :(

[BogenBlitz]

Man oh man.... I can say I'm glad I never play tournament games. My friends and I try to build nation-specific armies, set some objectives (usually taking a few towns, exiting the map, or taking a bridge), set a few house rules for the evening, and have some fun. The last thing we ever do (or want to do) is try to exploit the game. We may say "one or two heroes" tonight per side or "no heroes to replace heroes", etc., but we're just not the type of players who will come out with bizarre army compositions. From the boards, it sounds like just about everyone here plays mixed nation tournament-type games, eh? I can see your concern in that case.... Just rambling...

[Uncle_Joe]

From the boards, it sounds like just about everyone here plays mixed nation tournament-type games, eh? I can see your concern in that case.... Just rambling...

Nope, no mixing is necessary to see this problem. The HbH is simply a better version of Japanese infantry. Ditto for the Russians and a lesser extent the Germans and US.

As written, there is no reason not to pack your army with Heroes (besides being accused of being a cheese-ball etc).

You dont even have to look at the Tournament-style nonsense to see that unlimited Heroes is a bad idea.

[Lynx7725]

Mixed Nation Competitive is of concern because it's the introductory game AND it is likely to be a place where developers draw tangible feedback. That's really why some of us really have concerns.

In non-competitive, or nation-specific, or year-specific, a lot of the power levels are already throttled back intentionally by the players, so it's less of an issue.

[Hum_35711]

Man oh man.... I can say I'm glad I never play tournament games. My friends and I try to build nation-specific armies, set some objectives (usually taking a few towns, exiting the map, or taking a bridge), set a few house rules for the evening, and have some fun. The last thing we ever do (or want to do) is try to exploit the game. We may say "one or two heroes" tonight per side or "no heroes to replace heroes", etc., but we're just not the type of players who will come out with bizarre army compositions. From the boards, it sounds like just about everyone here plays mixed nation tournament-type games, eh? I can see your concern in that case.... Just rambling...

I only play 1 nation armies. And Japan really really needed the HbH to bring them inline with the other 4 major powers. Now they can compete.

[BogenBlitz]

Nope, no mixing is necessary to see this problem. The HbH is simply a better version of Japanese infantry. Ditto for the Russians and a lesser extent the Germans and US.

As written, there is no reason not to pack your army with Heroes (besides being accused of being a cheese-ball etc).

You dont even have to look at the Tournament-style nonsense to see that unlimited Heroes is a bad idea.

I agree with you there.... We'll definitely house rule them, but I really do want to play with them, too! As a sidebar, I don't know if you guys ever played or heard of that Victory Games game Ambush! (LOVE IT!), but it sort of reminds me a bit of what Axis & Allies Miniatures is (or is becoming). From the Ambush manual: ....it should be understood that more happens in a single Ambush! mission than an average soldier encountered in an entire battle historically. Thus, you and your squad are an elite group that gets into an extraordinary amount of combat and adventure during your missions. That sort of rings true for this game as well.

[polish_horsy]

yeah I mean here's a Japan army for ya...

Hero x 10 = 70
Ho-ni = 12
Arisaka x 3=9
Sgt = 9

that's 15 units, 100 points, and they are almost all heros. I don't want to play that way. But I don't want to be forced to loose just because I don't want to play superheros.

[Uncle_Joe]

Yeah, Ambush was awesome. But it was also solitaire, so 'balance' wasnt much a concern. ;)

I like the Japanese Hero too and I think he really DOES help make Japan more playable. But he would have done that at 11-12 points too. At 7, he's just too good.

House Ruling them to 1 is probably the best plan if you dont want to outright ban them (which I'd prefer to not start doing).

[BogenBlitz]

yeah I mean here's a Japan army for ya...

Hero x 10 = 70
Ho-ni = 12
Arisaka x 3=9
Sgt = 9

that's 15 units, 100 points, and they are almost all heros. I don't want to play that way. But I don't want to be forced to loose just because I don't want to play superheros.

Right on. That would be pretty hilarious.

[Hum_35711]

yeah I mean here's a Japan army for ya...

Hero x 10 = 70
Ho-ni = 12
Arisaka x 3=9
Sgt = 9

that's 15 units, 100 points, and they are almost all heros. I don't want to play that way. But I don't want to be forced to loose just because I don't want to play superheros.

I'm not sure, because I haven't tried it out, but I don't think army builds with that many Heroes will work. You won't be able to spawn your Heroes fast enough, and in this case if the US takes paratroopers they will beat you to the objective and then spawn their own Heroes there to stop you.

[polish_horsy]

heros spawn heros. they pop up like daisies.

[fifleche]

I'm not sure, because I haven't tried it out, but I don't think army builds with that many Heroes will work. You won't be able to spawn your Heroes fast enough, and in this case if the US takes paratroopers they will beat you to the objective and then spawn their own Heroes there to stop you.What does that have to do with WWII :confused:

Yes, you've guessed it, I don't like Heroes...

[Hum_35711]

heros spawn heros. they pop up like daisies.

yes, but on your first turn you would only be able to spawn a maximum of 4 heroes. So I would rush straight at you and kill as many of your pieces as possible before you could spawn the rest of your Heroes

[Uncle_Joe]

You won't be able to spawn your Heroes fast enough, and in this case if the US takes paratroopers they will beat you to the objective and then spawn their own Heroes there to stop you

And you dont see something wrong with this in a supposed WW2 game? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Hum_35711]

What does that have to do with WWII :confused:

Yes, you've guessed it, I don't like Heroes...

It has nothing to do with WWII, I'm just trying to allay peoples fears, by showing that the Heroes will not be as dominant as some of the doom sayers are predicting. I don't think that taking 10 Heroes will be a viable army build.

I'm explaining why you can't take that many Heroes and expect to win.

[Hum_35711]

I'm explaining why you can't take that many Heroes and expect to win.

oops. Posted twice.

[Kriegshund]

yes, but on your first turn you would only be able to spawn a maximum of 4 heroes. So I would rush straight at you and kill as many of your pieces as possible before you could spawn the rest of your Heroes

In that build all the heroes can be deployed by the 2nd turn. Just how exactly do you plan to "rush straight at him" and eliminate them before the end of his movement on turn 2? Especially if he actively avoids contact? I would like to see how that works...

Maybe next set will get the Previous High School Track and Cross Country Star Hero Hunter Hero that can do the job..... :p

[Hum_35711]

Just how exactly do you plan to "rush straight at him" and eliminate them before the end of his movement on turn 2?


Drop my aircraft on them?

uh, run someone up in a jeep to spot, then use my mortar with 16 range to kill them? (if that is legal, I'm still not sure)

I guess I'm not really sure exactly How I would kill them. I just somehow magically would because I'm a freakin' ninja assassin. I would use the force.

Also, if he is 'actively avoiding' me, he is not going to be able to spawn his Heroes into very useful hexes because he will be hiding.

[Lynx7725]

I think it's best not to write off what Hum_35711 is saying straight off.

The Hero's weird deployment is also a drawback. You're dependent on having infantry of a particular nationality in order to spawn, so naturally the opponent has incentive to kill those. Having too few is an issue, though I would hate the KV-1 riding hero.

Also, having less units than the opponent at any one time is also a handicap. He simply has more options than you have.

Lastly, part of the Hero's advantage is in its unpredictability for the opponent. You can't be sure where the Hero would appear. Designing a list with too many Heroes make it more predictable, so it may not be desired.

If I were to run Heroes, I would either go lighter on them... maybe 3 at best, in a conventional army, or I'll go spec forces, paratroops and Heroes. I don't think an army of Heroes is very viable except for Dirty Dozen missions.

[Hum_35711]

If I were to run Heroes, I would either go lighter on them... maybe 3 at best, in a conventional army, or I'll go spec forces, paratroops and Heroes.

Exactly. I really like the Heroes. But I don't think that I will be using that many of them in 1 army. Certainly not more than 3. For one thing it is a cheap tactic. For another thing it may not work effectively. But we'll all have to play a few games before we will know for certain what the best ratio of Heroes to regular infantry is, and under what circumstances.

[Kriegshund]

Drop my aircraft on them?

uh, run someone up in a jeep to spot, then use my mortar with 16 range to kill them? (if that is legal, I'm still not sure)

So, first of all against a highly cheesed army you have brought to the table units that aren't going to last long or have much impact. The airplane can't contest the objective and rarely survives long. A jeep within 4 hexes of any units nearly needs to be sneezed at to be destroyed. Also remember that at Medium range the jeep can't see Superior Camo Heroes clever placed in cover by your opponent.

Best case scenario, you took out 3 of 8 units capable of spawning Heroes with your idea above combined. Your opponent still spawns the rest of his heroes on turn 2. How exactly did you halt his ability to spawn his heroes again?

[Hum_35711]

I'm not going to completely stop him from spawning more. But I am going to get essentially a free round of attacking him while he is only at half-strength. Or a free round of getting into an ideal position and occupying all the key hexes while he is hiding and spawning the rest of his Heroes. Either way it is an advantage to me.

[polish_horsy]

how many times have you killed off a bunch of units on turn 1?

I don't know if 10 heros has a problem but it took me 2 minutes to create that build. And I think it could beat a lot of armies (and sure... loose to some... they all do). But obvisouly a high number of heros could be done. And that is just plain stupid. And in a 200-point game using more maps I could have 20+ heros... WWII the gathering here we come!

[Kriegshund]

The Hero's weird deployment is also a drawback. You're dependent on having infantry of a particular nationality in order to spawn, so naturally the opponent has incentive to kill those.

How many games have we played with SS-PG's still cold kickin' it live contesting the objective at turn 10 when our opponent has had incentive to kill them for those same 10 turns? :D

[Bobsalt]

It's a little early to start complaining about the new pieces from a 'game mechanics' viewpoint. Most of us haven't even had a chance to try them out. Play 10 games, give the Heroes a chance. Then if you don't like them you can complain. But at this point, people are complaining about the Heroes just because they don't like the concept, without even giving it a try. Personally, my opinion is, if you don't like them, don't use them. But I really like the Heroes and I'm going to use at least 1 in every army.
Some things smell bad enough from a distance that you don’t really need to get any closer to see it’s rotten. I never played the aircraft rules before they were released, either, but with 30 years of wargaming experience under my belt I knew immediately from reading them that they were idiotic, to say nothing of probably having never been actually playtested.

When you criticize a unit without really having played with it, or against it. The tendency is to overstate everything.
Yes, there is a tendency of some to overstate everything. However, I can’t help but point out that the reverse is also true – some people have a tendency to understate everything no matter how bad it is.

the HbH is resonably priced when compared to the underpriced units in earlier sets like the Shermans and SSPG. The developers are clearly making a huge effort to balance the game out, by taking these underpriced units into careful consideration.
This is my primary complaint. You don’t fix a game by basing the costs of new units on the fact that the costs of earlier units were priced wrong to begin with and adjusting the only the new units. You price the new units according to what they should be based on their abilities, and you admit you screwed up on the earlier units and re-price them accordingly.

This has been done pretty much across the board in set IV. For instance, many cheap but effective tank killers have been introduced to counter the Sherman swarm. Sure, some pieces from the first 3 sets are now going to be overpriced. What did you think was going to happen? But I think overall the game is becoming more balanced as the result of low point cost on some of the very strong new units. These new units will counter the previously undercosted units from the first 3 sets.
I think the game is spinning further and further out of control due to more and more units having costs that are completely out of line with the costs of other units relative to their abilities.

I'm absolutely not saying that this is an ideal situation. It's not.
You’re right. It’s a half-(you know what) solution.

But honestly, how were you expecting them to resolve balancing issues? I think overall they've got the right idea, and at least they are addressing it, by adding more very competitive units. You say that only something like 20 out of 180 units are competitive. Then why complain when they add 1 more competitive unit to the roster?
I concede that since this game is based on historical units (or, at least theoretically it is…), you will never have 100% of the units effective, since many units in real life were themselves ineffective. But with each unit priced according to its abilities relative to those of all the other units would probably mean that well over half the units in the game would be fairly effective. It's this concept called "game balance". As it is, adding a new unit that is supposedly the correct cost, but out of line with previous units makes those previous units unplayable. A far better solution is to reprice the earlier units and pay a little more attention going forward.

Hopefully this trend will continue into later sets. Sure you will have a lot of overpriced units from the first 3 sets that won't see much play, but every new game has its bugs, and as long as it gets resolved in the end (sooner rather than later I hope), I'll be pleased. I think the developers are on the right track, with this set.
Hopefully this trend will be reversed with future sets. On the other hand, if it does continue, it will make sure that HHR will stay busy. I didn’t realize that was going to be a lifetime commitment…

As to being on the right track, I think this game is on the same track as an oncoming locomotive moving at high speed. :rolleyes:

Again, try playing it a bit, then maybe you will agree with me
Well, I guess I could try doing that if I had the help of a “players aid”…where’s that tequila I mentioned earlier… :rolleyes:

See again, from my point of view, when you buy a new set, it's nice to get a few really strong units that stir the game up a bit and force people to come up with new strategies and tactics. Thats what keeps the game fresh. That's what's so good about the new Heroes. The new game mechanic that has been added with set IV keeps the game fresh and gives everyone something new to think about.
From my point of view, this is what causes the game to get stale, and will continue to keep me from buying this game in the future. It’s getting really old to see new units coming out that are priced totally out of line with earlier units, or have unrealistic abilities. That’s what’s so wrong with the new Heroes. The new mechanic that has been added with Set IV makes the game much less like WWII and much more like what I am guessing the Star Wars or D&D games must be like.

you don't fix mistakes by making more of them. you fix the earlier mistake.
Dare to dream, Mr. Horsy.

Easiest fix for the Hero issues and other uber units is

UNIQUE 100: your army may only contain one of these units per 100 points of build

or for weaker versions

UNIQUE 50: your army may only contain one of these units per 50 points of build.
Or a new Special Ability:

Design Error: This unit was the result of an all-night tequila binge by one of the designers, and we didn’t catch it before it was released. This unit may not be used in Axis & Allies Miniatures, but may used in Star Wars, D&D, or any other game with no connection to reality.

Or:

Under 12: You may only use this unit if you are under 12 years of age.

By the way, Y2UAsk has ruled on the question of whether or not heroes can spawn other heroes – they can. Now, would you prefer your next opponent’s build to be Cheddar, Swiss, or Roquefort?

Personally, it all smells like Limburger to me…very aged Limburger…

[Hum_35711]

how many times have you killed off a bunch of units on turn 1?


Usually it would be hard to kill units on turn 1. But in this case I would have at least a 2 to 1 advantage in manpower until turn 2. So yah, I think that I would be able to pick off a few of your guys if you try to contest any of the key hexes.

[Lynx7725]

Not that many DEF 5 Soldiers in the Japanese inventory, so they are slightly easier to deal with.. if they clump up, the easiest way is to whistle up a Lightning. And there's a lot less of them too -- one in your build, 4 in Horsy's. And they hit back a lot less than SS-PzGrs.

Thing is, forcing the Heroes to spawn out of position can be an acceptable tradeoff. Heroes need delivery systems to get them into the right position to be effective; deny them that or get them to spawn in the wrong place and they can suck badly. They still are SPD 1, after all. :D

Hero by itself is... not too badly unbalanced. Hero with all the trappings added to form the HBH is a problem.

I'm thinking, the worse Hero army is probably a paratroop-Hero one, followed by the combined arms Hero army. The Band of Heroes [plus one Sidekick] version is a bit of an oddity to me.

[Hum_35711]

It’s getting really old to see new units coming out that are priced totally out of line with earlier units, or have unrealistic abilities. That’s what’s so wrong with the new Heroes.


You know, there is nothing to prevent WoTC from releasing new powerful, cheap units to promote a better balance AND ammending the cost of the old units to bring them into line with new sets. They are not mutually exclusive solutions.

I am happy that the issue is being addressed and, in my opinion, resolved in a satisfactory way. Even if WoTC fails to recost the old units, which is obviously the solution you prefer, there is nothing to prevent you from ammending the cost of the units yourself.

I just don't see the necessity of constantly complaining about something that they are obviously aware of and actively trying to fix.

To me it seems more appropriate to encourage the design team because the issue is finally being addressed and steps are being taken to resolve it.

[Kriegshund]

Usually it would be hard to kill units on turn 1. But in this case I would have at least a 2 to 1 advantage in manpower until turn 2. So yah, I think that I would be able to pick off a few of your guys if you try to contest any of the key hexes.

Nobody needs to contest any key hexes on turn 2......

And in the following turns you betcha the objective will by contested........by an Imperial Sergeant banzai charging 10 of his disruption ignoring Hero friends +1 per die on HtH 10, and CA 8......

Look the entire point here is not that these armies can't or won't be countered and beaten. That is simple enough. The problem is that now I will be FORCED to counter this cheese. Then I will have to deploy cheese to fight cheese. BORING and uninteresting games. I purchased Axis and Allies Minatures to play a lite historic WWII skirmish game, not to have a food fight.

[Lynx7725]

Tomatoes at 20 paces? :D

[shadowhooch]

I just don't see the necessity of constantly complaining about something that they are obviously aware of and actively trying to fix.

Actually, constantly complaining and protesting actually does work. See the Equal Rights movement of the '60s along with just about every Revolution or law change in history. Action was taken because people complained with valid points and never let up. ;)

[Kriegshund]

Tomatoes at 20 paces? :D

I'm down....as long as you can't spike them with some heroic cheeze whiz! :cool:

[shadowhooch]

I just asked another Hero question on the Q&A....
Can Hero's spawn from transported soldiers?

I can just see a Jeep carrying a soldier and "planting" Hero's where needed. Call it the "Constant Gardner" strategy. :D

Ugh, I'm making myself sick with all the possibilities.

[Hum_35711]

The problem is that now I will be FORCED to counter this cheese. Then I will have to deploy cheese to fight cheese.

LOL. Why is it cheese? The Japanese desperately needed the unit that they got. They really needed a hardcharging piece with a good CA. Thats what they got. Using your rational, any piece can be cheese if you abuse it. Used reasonably the HbH is a good all around piece that will make all Japanese army builds playable. Which is, uh, good.

[Uncle_Joe]

LOL. Why is it cheese? The Japanese desperately needed the unit that they got. They really needed a hardcharging piece with a good CA. Thats what they got. Using your rational, any piece can be cheese if you abuse it. Used reasonably the HbH is a good all around piece that will make all Japanese army builds playable. Which is, uh, good.

No. Not true. TRY to 'cheese' with Panzer Grenadiers, or PzrIVgs, or FO Jeeps, or halftracks etc.

Heck, even try to cheese with 'standard' units like the Garand, Mauser, Mosin, SMLE, MG42 etc. You cant. Because they are well costed and balanced units.

If the players are forced to enforce 'reasonable' on their own, then SOMETHING IS WRONG!

[Hum_35711]

The SE paratrooper can be cheese if you abuse it. But don't tell me that you never use the SEs. The SSPG can be cheese if abused, but I'm sure you've played with one, in some match, one time, in the distant past. The Sherman swarm is pretty cheese when people abuse the low cost of that armour, but many people play it.

I don't see why it is so hard for you to adapt to these new pieces and develop new strategies to defeat them.

[Bobsalt]

Look the entire point here is not that these armies can't or won't be countered and beaten. That is simple enough. The problem is that now I will be FORCED to counter this cheese. Then I will have to deploy cheese to fight cheese. BORING and uninteresting games. I purchased Axis and Allies Minatures to play a lite historic WWII skirmish game, not to have a food fight.
Exactly. If I wanted this crap (or I suppose I should say cheese, since that seems to be the vernacular of the day) in a game, I wouldn't have bought a game about WWII to engage in "historically authentic, squad-level tactical combat " with "rules that don’t sacrifice authenticity."

Oh, well - as I said, there's still HHR. I'm sure we can use the heroes miniatures to create something for the game from this universe...

[polish_horsy]

well here is one way to beat the hero... read a book until time is expired and then since the hero is never placed you win on turn 1 on points. Ain't that fun!

[Uncle_Joe]

Of course. I think ALL of those units should be 'fixed'. But fixing them should not entail adding new problems to the mix. That is a sign of BAD GAME DESIGN.

[Kriegshund]

LOL. Why is it cheese?

If you can't see it by now, after several experienced gamers have explained why (and I won't even include myself in that group), then you just won't.....

The Japanese desperately needed the unit that they got. They really needed a hardcharging piece with a good CA. Thats what they got. Using your rational, any piece can be cheese if you abuse it. Used reasonably the HbH is a good all around piece that will make all Japanese army builds playable. Which is, uh, good.

Ok, following that logic it would have been ok if they got some Lightsaber weilding Jedi (oops, bad example, they already got that..) and some Starship Troopers, and some Gondorian Elite Guard, and some Klingon Birds of Prey because they really needed a boost. Im sure it will be fine as long as those units won't be abused.....

[Uncle_Joe]

Oh, well - as I said, there's still HHR. I'm sure we can use the heroes miniatures to create something for the game from this universe...

I wish I could be sold on the HHR, but I feel that they have diverted too far from the original idea. Instead of simply fixing the 'problems', the HHR change the units entirely too much IMO. And I think they solve two problems, but create another.

Its a laudable effort and I appreciate the time and energy spent on it, but for better or worse, I feel tied to official game (minus the few ruling that I absolutely cant stomach).

[Hum_35711]

well here is one way to beat the hero... read a book until time is expired and then since the hero is never placed you win on turn 1 on points. Ain't that fun!

That's some contructive criticism right there. muah ha ha ha. Seriously though, I think a lot of willingness to see things in a positive light, and really look at how to make the game better is being lost somewhere here.

[Hum_35711]

Ok, following that logic it would have been ok if they got some Lightsaber weilding Jedi (oops, bad example, they already got that..) and some Starship Troopers, and some Gondorian Elite Guard, and some Klingon Birds of Prey because they really needed a boost. Im sure it will be fine as long as those units won't be abused.....

yeah, okay... no one thinks that the downsides of the Heroes are being blown way way way out of proportion???

[Hum_35711]

To me, the Japanese hero represents a very brave veteran soldier trained in infiltration, who has taken some sort of sachel charge explosive and volunteers to attack an enemy position. Which is inside the realm of possibility. He isn't uh... Darth Vader.

[shadowhooch]

I wish I could be sold on the HHR, but I feel that they have diverted too far from the original idea. Instead of simply fixing the 'problems', the HHR change the units entirely too much IMO. And I think they solve two problems, but create another.

Its a laudable effort and I appreciate the time and energy spent on it, but for better or worse, I feel tied to official game (minus the few ruling that I absolutely cant stomach).

Unfortunately, I have to completely agree with you. I too think some of the HHR ruling have made certain units generic. I think they may have done too much. But I can see where they are coming from (historical basis only).
So I'm stuck in the middle, just like you.

But I still enjoy the hell out of the game.

[Kriegshund]

The SE paratrooper can be cheese if you abuse it. But don't tell me that you never use the SEs.

I never use the SE Paras...well I never use them anymore in my friendly usual gaming group? Why? Cheese. It's not fun and boring after a game or two, and only aggravates your opponent. They are either heavily modified with houserules or left out of play.

The SSPG can be cheese if abused, but I'm sure you've played with one, in some match, one time, in the distant past. See above....
The Sherman swarm is pretty cheese when people abuse the low cost of that armour, but many people play it.See above....
I don't see why it is so hard for you to adapt to these new pieces and develop new strategies to defeat them.

It wasn't hard, we don't use them or heavily modify them. Powergaming = no fun, for you or your opponent. Sure you get a couple games where you go "Wow, thats nifty!". The third game you realise it is no longer fun to play or counter the build....

And you are still wondering why we have a problem when we see new units that are following suit?

[Hum_35711]

wow... so you essentially never use any good units? Because they're uh... too good? That doesn't sound very fun.

[Bobsalt]

I wish I could be sold on the HHR, but I feel that they have diverted too far from the original idea. Instead of simply fixing the 'problems', the HHR change the units entirely too much IMO. And I think they solve two problems, but create another.

Its a laudable effort and I appreciate the time and energy spent on it, but for better or worse, I feel tied to official game (minus the few ruling that I absolutely cant stomach).
To an extent I actually agree with you. The problem is once you start to change what's broken, you start to find that things that you first thought were OK are no longer OK because of the changes you just made. We've probably had to adjust 75% of the units in the game in some manner or other. Speaking only for me, this is certainly not what I was expecting or wanting to do. But we want HHR to be right. I am definitely the sort who believes you should change as little as possible, but unfortunately in trying to make the game balanced, it has taken more than any of us first thought it would (assuming, of course, you agree with the whole premise that the game needed to be adjusted for historocity's sake to begin with).

And of course, it's understandable that you prefer the game to be done right in the first place rather than depend on other players to have to tinker with it. This would be my preference as well. But I guess you play with the hand you're dealt.

[Lynx7725]

Sigh. Looks like I need to look at the HHR now.

[Hum_35711]

It wasn't hard, we don't use them or heavily modify them. Powergaming = no fun, for you or your opponent. Sure you get a couple games where you go "Wow, thats nifty!". The third game you realise it is no longer fun to play or counter the build....

And you are still wondering why we have a problem when we see new units that are following suit?

I don't know, I a way a largely agree with you. But I still don't mind that these very powerful units exist. I use a few, but I try to keep my armies well balanced and not overcrowed on very powerful units. but at the same time, it doesn't bother me at all that these units exist, and other people including my opponents are free to use them. Thats part of the excitement and strategy for me. I like developing my armies to counter every posible contigency. and when the 10 Hero armies come along, I am going to have tons of fun trying to beat them.

[Kriegshund]

wow... so you essentially never use any good units? Because they're uh... too good?

No...not because they are too good but because due to our experience in their use in gameplay they were poorly designed or costed. Not in all cases are they never used but at least rules are modified.


That doesn't sound very fun.

On the contrary, those were the changes that were required to keep the games fun.....

[Kriegshund]

....and when the 10 Hero armies come along, I am going to have tons of fun trying to beat them.

Believe me brother, not the upteenth time you see the damn thing because some knobs read a website somewhere that told them it was WTFPWNLeeT army to play...

[Hum_35711]

Believe me brother, not the upteenth time you see the damn thing because some knobs read a website somewhere that told them it was WTFPWNLeeT army to play...

like I said earlier, after the 10th game I'll now exactly how to beat the HbH easily. I will have every strategy mapped. I might not have 100% grade A fun doing it, but at least I'll win, and that counts for something. Also I don't play against 8 year olds, so I doubt I'll see that many people being shamefully abusive of the new pieces.

Even as it is, I don't think the HbH is anywhere near as strong as you guys are making out, and I don't think an army with many HbHs will be very strong at all, for all of the reasons posted above.

[dredlox]

I know most people on the net just argue and don't listen, but actually i think HUM_35711 and Uncle Joe are making some good points. I'm kind of caught in between. Both cases are stated very well. I think we all can agree we like the hbh in limited doses and is exactly what the dr ordered for the rising sun. Question is, does he obliviate every other japanese infantry? That would not be a good thing... variety is very important in games.

Anyhow, for what's it worth, I play this game to actually PLAY ;-)... I got some games in last night the with hbh. There are several pieces that can hurt the hbh, some mentioned like planes and marines and such, but two pieces stood out

1) the old fashioned croc
2) The petard: actually the avre was ripping the hbh to shreds. at 25 points, it is very thickly armored and the 12 bomblast rips up anything. The only sucky thing is when the inevitable close assaults begin, you have a decent chance of shooting yourself. I have never liked Blast much to begin with (whereas bombard rocks the house), and in this case it's a real drawback. Even though you likely nuke both close assaulters ;-)

Anyone else notice the German Hero is friggin awesome? ;-) Actually the resourceful hero continues to drop in my estimation, although he is incredible too.

[Hum_35711]

when the inevitable close assaults begin, you have a decent chance of shooting yourself...

Lol


Anyone else notice the German Hero is friggin awesome? ;-) Actually the resourceful hero continues to drop in my estimation, although he is incredible too.

I agree, I think the people are a bit overstating the value of the Resourceful Hero, relative to the other Heroes.

I think the grizzled veteran has a lot of potential. With 3 long range AI dice and 'Vaste Experience' (2 hits on a natural 6), does anyone know what his odds are of taking out say an enemy mortar (defence 3) at long range?