Overpriced King Tiger?

[Kalashnikov]

Ok, I'm new to the game, but looking at the stats, I wonder if the King Tiger is worth it's rediculously high point value. 71 points is high, especially compared to the almost as well armoured Easy Eight. Could someone shed some light on this for me?

[XAos]

... compared to the almost as well armoured Easy Eight.
Don't be fooled by the comparision that 7 is only 12.5% lower than 8. The actual probabilities for rolling hits in aam make defense:8 nearly twice as good as defense:7.
e.g.
Sherman at short,medium,long range;
7 successes = 50%,27%,9%
8 successes = 29%,11%,2%

Most of the defense:7+ AFV's are overcosted (that includes the easy-8)
The King Tiger's cost is OK V's enemy tanks. But against infantry it's nearly helpless. So a 100 point force with 71 points spent on a King Tiger has no chance against an infantry heavy or combined arms force.

[Cruizin2000]

German tanks are expensive to use in this game. It's just a general rule for Wizards.

C2000

[Kalashnikov]

German tanks are expensive to use in this game. It's just a general rule for Wizards.

C2000

Fits right in historicly then, doesn't it?

[horacus]

Yes. The only german heavy armor that is a little underpriced is the monstruosus Vetern Tiger 1 with crack shot.

[NightMoor]

Defense 8 is *huge*. As Xaos pointed out its a massive step up from Defense 7, which itself is already a tough nut to crack.

Now as for whether the King Tiger is *worth* its points in battle is another story. I think you'll find that much like it was historically, the King Tiger is not quite the right investment of resources for a winning strategy ;-). But it can be a very tough customer if your opponent's dice rolls are only average...

[Kalashnikov]

Perhaps its value is better in large games, but then again, units like the archer deployed en masse sound way more enticing.

[Sniper45]

Plus its freakishly powerful.

[Predator666]

Its very well priced for how long it can last and how strong it is. Its pretty useless in a 100 pt game but in larger games it becomes more useful if you want a tank that can withstand shermans at even short range. You just have to keep its flanks covered. Otherwise it can be easily outflanked and dealt with.

[tragicmishap]

Then how about the Jadtiger? Same defense, same AI values, significantly higher AT values, -1 speed and can't move when damaged. 11 points less. Worth it?

[RommeL BombeR 77]

Then how about the Jadtiger? Same defense, same AI values, significantly higher AT values, -1 speed and can't move when damaged. 11 points less. Worth it?
your also forgetting no turret

[Kaufschtick]

I think the Vet Tiger with SA: Crack Shot would have to be the hands down winner in the "Best Tank for the Points" discussion. I think the Vet Tiger could take either the King Tiger or the Jagdtiger. The Crack Shot would be the difference.

[ayeblackbart]

I think the Vet Tiger with SA: Crack Shot would have to be the hands down winner in the "Best Tank for the Points" discussion. I think the Vet Tiger could take either the King Tiger or the Jagdtiger. The Crack Shot would be the difference.

One on one there is no comparison for it as the best tank. I like bigger battles for the big tanks because if not the good infantry ((ie anything with a with a 5)) can close and eventually take it out. The Fighting Soldiers from the sky are really good at it. I recently played a 250 point battle versus 2 Jagdtigers and 1 King Tiger supported by a Brummbar and a Wirblewind. I used nothing but paratroopers and couple of the new mortar guys and won based solely on the fighting ability of the paratroopers. However, the long range mortars chew up anything less than a top flight tank.

[Tico303]

Defense 8 is *huge*. As Xaos pointed out its a massive step up from Defense 7, which itself is already a tough nut to crack.

Now as for whether the King Tiger is *worth* its points in battle is another story. I think you'll find that much like it was historically, the King Tiger is not quite the right investment of resources for a winning strategy ;-). But it can be a very tough customer if your opponent's dice rolls are only average...

This is exactly why I like this unit. Yes, it may be hell of a lot of points to pay...but so what? It will be so much fun wasting any armor an oponent comes up with, it's worth the extra points...hell, it's even worth loosing on turn 7.

Have to admit I never did it, though

Playtested a friends 3D-Terrain today with 80pts each... I thought of fielding a KT and a PzIIc, just to see the look on his face :eek: But instead, I went for the "conservative" build and wasted his infantry-heavy armor with a sIG. Lucky me ;)

Tico
still aka the "King Tiger Virgin" :D

[Kalashnikov]

All of this really started when I began my A&A Minis career by buying a starter kit and 2 boosters, a set1 and 2 set 2s. When that sucker poped out, my initial excitement died when 100 point armies were clearly stated as standard in the game. Not alot of room for my inf. :(

[Kaufschtick]

However, the long range mortars chew up anything less than a top flight tank.

I was thinking that anybody going up against the U.S. had better take some aircraft to get at that new mortar. Or para's if you have them. That piece seems more of an issue in this set than the Hero's! The U.S. mortar just seems like it will be a game breaker though. With the inclussion of the U.S. mortar, planes have taken on new importance.

[Count_Ciano]

This is exactly why I like this unit. Yes, it may be hell of a lot of points to pay...but so what? It will be so much fun wasting any armor an oponent comes up with, it's worth the extra points...hell, it's even worth loosing on turn 7.

Have to admit I never did it, though

Playtested a friends 3D-Terrain today with 80pts each... I thought of fielding a KT and a PzIIc, just to see the look on his face :eek: But instead, I went for the "conservative" build and wasted his infantry-heavy armor with a sIG. Lucky me ;)

Tico
still aka the "King Tiger Virgin" :D

Or, you could have taken an L3/35 instead and hid it UNDER the King Tiger!

:D

[Kaufschtick]

All of this really started when I began my A&A Minis career by buying a starter kit and 2 boosters, a set1 and 2 set 2s. When that sucker poped out, my initial excitement died when 100 point armies were clearly stated as standard in the game. Not alot of room for my inf. :(

Oh, the King Tiger is a dandy of a piece alright! Don't get down on it. It would work well with some SS Panzergrenadiers from set I. Lets see, 71 for the King Tiger, 4 SSPG's for 20 and an SS Haupsturmfurher for 7. That's 98 points and 2 points to spend on some of the new obstacles or something like that. Maybe four barbed wires, try to channel your opponents infantry or something like that. You can do some damage with a build like that to be sure! If you don't have any of the SS Panzergrenadiers, they're a set one piece, and arguably the best infantry in the game for the cost, and even better when teamed up with an SS Haupsturmfurher. They may not seem like much at first, but those guys are BAD!

[Kaufschtick]

Or, you could have taken an L3/35 instead and hid it UNDER the King Tiger!

:D

LOL! :D Oh, I almost fell off my chair again! Good one!

[Kalashnikov]

So, I take it the initial kits have not gone the way of the dinosaurs? They are still competative? If so, I'm glad to hear that.

[Kaufschtick]

So, I take it the initial kits have not gone the way of the dinosaurs? They are still competative? If so, I'm glad to hear that.

There are 183 different units out in all. All of them have a potential to be useful given the right situation. That's the fun part. If you're building armies, the two builds and the map layout will combine to form many different possibilties for pieces to be useful or not, depending on the circumstances.

Each set is really good. None have gone by the wayside at this point. Only if you're a nut like some of us on here and collect the whole damn thing as soon as each set comes out would you find some of your pieces redundant and put out to pasture. For the normal people out there who purchase this game the way it was intended, a booster here and there from time to time, you should be in real good shape. Especially if you game against similar people or you are the one providing all the pieces to play with.

With four sets out now, there is getting to be a very rich assortment of pieces to choose or get, and this game is probably at it's best when played by normal people who have some boosters but not every single piece from every single set in large quanities.

[ToodlyPip]

"7 successes = 50%, 27%, 9%
8 successes = 29%, 11%, 2%"

Where did you get these beautiful straight-forward statistics? Do you make use of an arcane formula? A spreadsheet citing probabilities? Did you figure everything out by listing all the options?

I have been searching the net for figures (what's the chance 3 Flamingos flame a King Tiger? what's the chance of 2 shermans damaging a KV-1?) but I could not find the right numbers.

Thanks,

Toodly

[XAos]

"7 successes = 50%, 27%, 9%
8 successes = 29%, 11%, 2%"

Where did you get these beautiful straight-forward statistics? Do you make use of an arcane formula? A spreadsheet citing probabilities? Did you figure everything out by listing all the options?

See the thread http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?t=8997&highlight=excel
It includes a post of the formulaes for a spreadsheet based on the correct mathematical probabilities for rolling buckets of D6's.

[ToodlyPip]

Thanks!

Now I can finally calculate the effectiveness of my Flamingo swarm..

"Toodly P.

[metaldog]

I played a king tiger last night with 6 SSPG and 4 panzerfaust. 121 point army per side. I got crushed hard!! we rolled and got the "hill107" map. I placed second and got the side of the map with hardly any cover. My infantry got pinned down by fanatical snipers and my king tiger got flanked neer the big hill. I damaged a kv1 but got flanked by a t34 guards and he rolled lucky...10 successes with 12 dice. The king tiger is damaged and my infantry is either dead or pinned down. Next turn his t34guards and sherman finnish off the king tiger and I conceed on turn 6.

[Kalashnikov]

Ouch, you didn't by any chance have a brumbar instead of some of the infantry? That might have made a big difference.

[Kaufschtick]

I played a king tiger last night with 6 SSPG and 4 panzerfaust. 121 point army per side. I got crushed hard!! we rolled and got the "hill107" map. I placed second and got the side of the map with hardly any cover. My infantry got pinned down by fanatical snipers and my king tiger got flanked neer the big hill. I damaged a kv1 but got flanked by a t34 guards and he rolled lucky...10 successes with 12 dice. The king tiger is damaged and my infantry is either dead or pinned down. Next turn his t34guards and sherman finnish off the king tiger and I conceed on turn 6.

Ah, buts that's the beauty of gaming, you could play the same game again, same map and all, and things would be totally different! Maybe next time the luck of the dice would be against your opponent...

[Predator666]

A good alternative to the SS-PG is a Wehrmacht Veteran Infantrymen. The fanatical sniper gets the bonus on the SS, not the reg. soldiers. Your build woulda been better with a brummbar, 2 panzerfaust, and W. Vet. Infantrymen other than the SS-PG's. Good luck on your next battle.

[XAos]

I played a king tiger last night with 6 SSPG and 4 panzerfaust. 121 point army per side. I got crushed hard!! we rolled and got the "hill107" map. I placed second and got the side of the map with hardly any cover. My infantry got pinned down by fanatical snipers and my king tiger got flanked neer the big hill. I damaged a kv1 but got flanked by a t34 guards and he rolled lucky...10 successes with 12 dice. The king tiger is damaged and my infantry is either dead or pinned down. Next turn his t34guards and sherman finnish off the king tiger and I conceed on turn 6.
With 10 infantry in your force, You might consider a commander {SS-Haup or Wehrmacht Oberleutnant}
You didn't list the entire allied force, but that was at least 86 points of allied AFV's {Sherman, KV-1, T-34/85} V's a 71 point Tiger (with no other significant AT units) You can't expect the overpriced axis tanks to win against a 15+ point advantage to the allied armour.
At the very least you either need a high initiative commander or some long range AT-support. Try replacing some of the infantry with a couple of Wehrmacht snipers; A problem for a Tiger is that, individual enemy tanks run away & hide, until they can all mob it. Headshot is an effective way to immobalise them for the King Tiger to finish off.
As a final point, 6 SS-PG's is almost perfectly the wrong number to play;
If your opponent isn't playing units able to defeat defense:5 infantry, then 2 or 3 will be enough to control the objective and leave you 15-20 points for other types of units.
If your opponent is playing units which defeat SSPG's. Theres a known tactical "trick" (like a chess endgame sequence) for a Rhino against 1-6 SSPG's. The SSPG's don't have the slightest chance to beat the Rhino unless there are at least 7 of them.

[metaldog]

thanks for the advise guys. Last night I played with a sspanther and three wehrmacht snipers, 1 panzerfaust, 6 sspg. I dominated! I took out a t34guards a stuart and finaly a croc. my snipers pinned down his snipers. I had the advantage the whole game...MAN I LOVE THOSE WSNIPERS. That was only my 4th game ever. Again, thanks for the tips.

[NumberCruncher]

That's the sort of post I love the most.
New guy getting some advise that makes the game more enjoyable for him.
When was the last tie you saw one of those?
Keep it up guys, that's why I put up with all the flames and abuse.

[shadowhooch]

Personally, I would be more apt to take Mauser Kars with a King Tiger 100 point build.

You could get 9 Mauser Kars (or Arisakas) with your KT. Then you could deal with an infantry dominated opponent as well as a tank dominated opponent. Use those last 2 points for a couple of tank traps or barbed wire. Try it. It's a tough build.

With SSPGs, you could only field 5 and I fear that you just wouldn't have enough shots fired per turn to be a threat against a high unit count army.

Which raises a question:
Hey you stat guys....What's better to have? 5 SSPGs or 9 Mauser Kars? Who would win in a battle? I gotta think it's a close battle eh?

[horacus]

Yes, it is a close battle if you play 9 mausers against 5 sspg. But if you only field 5 sspg against a russian or american army, well, you will be very very outnumbered.