Errata, Hlking Mass

[Colonel_Coo]

from the new errata:
destroyed: A Vehicle that receives three or more simultaneous hits gets a destroyed counter. A Soldier or Aircraft that receives two or more simultaneou***** gets a Destroyed counter. If a damaged Vehicle would receive another Damaged counter, it gets a Destroyed counter instead.
When hit counters are flipped over during the casualty phase, remove all units
with Destroyed counters from the battle map.

From the KV-1 card:
Hulking Mass: Ignore the first damaged counter this unit receives each game.


Since the new wording of DESTROYED does not place a Disruption or a Damaged Counter on the unit; rather, it places a destroyed counter on the unit, can I now finally get a theoretical "one-shot kill" on a KV-1?
(Say the new crackshot Tiger gets 12 successes against a KV-1)

[Y2UAsk]

No. The portion of the definition that you've italicized is identical to the original wording. The only thing that's changed in the definition is the addition of Aircraft.

The definition of destroyed doesn't state that one hit does not place a disrupted marker or that two hits do not place a damaged marker. It just states if a Vehicle takes three simultaneous hits, it gets a destroyed marker. That does not cancel the effects of the first and second hits.

Steve

[Colonel_Coo]

Okay, I'll play wordsmith 2006 edition.

Since we are to read rules AS WRITTEN, then the KV-1 Hulking mass does not remove HITS. It only removes/ignores the Damage counter (and only the first it receives).

Destroyed counters are placed on vehicles two ways:
1. A vehicle already has a damage counter and WOULD receive a second damage counter; then the 2nd damage counter is replaced with a destroyed counter.

2. A vehicle receives 3 simulataneous hits. The use of SIMULTANEOUS is not mine, it is the rules.

Since KV-1 Hulking Mass does not say to IGNORE the HIT that would give a damage counter; rather it clearly says ignore the first counter the SA does not (as written; hence how we have to interpret) stop the DESTROY effect.

Since an attack that has twice the defense in successes cause three HITS, then the following occurs PER WRITTEN rules:
3 counters are applied simultaneously (all face down): a disrupt, a damage and a destroy. Hulking mass would replace the DAMAGE counter with an ignore; however, it does impact the other two counters. Further, since the destroyed counter is not being placed due to the target already having a damage counter (that is not what 3 simultaneous hits do), the hulking mass effect takes place (ignore the damage) but has no effect on the destroyed effect.

No where on the Hulking mass does it discuss ignoring hits only a damage counter. No where on the subset of destroyed counters does 3 simultaneous hits require the damage to applied then a second damage to appliled to satisfy the destroy impact. Actually, it is written the opposite and goes out the way to define a 3 hit destroy sequence.

I can accept a RULE rewrite, (like the defensive fire rule rewrite to not cause auto-stoppage of the moving target if disruption is ignored by the target), but as written 3 simultaneous hits cause a destroy counter: not a disrupt counter, then a damage counter, then because the target has a damage counter a destroyed counter is applied. Plain and simple, three simultaneous hits cause a DESTROYED counter to be added to the target SIMULTANEOUSLY as the disrupt and the damage and NOT DUE to the presence of a disrupt or a damage counter being applied FIRST.

Language play does not stop the rules as written. A simple RULE rewrite would (like was done in Defensive fire) do the job. I also understand that as interpretted by AH will apply at tourneyments; however, as written, the official intrepretation is wrong: of course, in my humple opinion. :p

[Y2UAsk]

Ooh, a rules-lawyer throw-down! I'll match my parse-fu against anyone's, any day. :cool:

(Those of you who are easily bored or annoyed may want to switch channels now.)

Disruption, damage, and destroyed markers are collectively called "hit counters" -- in other words, they count hits.

AAM defines "simultaneous hits" to mean "all hits from a single attack and all hits caused by normal attacks in the assault phase." There's no distinction between hits that come from a single attack and hits that come from multiple attacks -- all are defined and treated identically.

What happens when a Vehicle is hit? You place a face-down hit counter next to it. Nowhere, however, do the rules state, "place all hit counters received from a single attack simultaneously." The implication, which I believe to be clear (because of the step-by-step nature of the instructions), is that you place the first hit counter (disruption), then the second hit counter (damage), then the third hit counter (destroyed). That's what you do if the hits come from three separate attacks, and because there's no differentiation between hits from one attack and hits from multiple attacks, then that must also be what you do when all of the hits come from a single attack.

And I'm sure you see where I'm going ...

The KV-1 takes three hits. You place the first hit counter -- disruption. You place the second hit counter -- damage. You place the third hit counter -- but the KV-1 ignores the second hit counter ("treat that hit counter as if it weren't there"), so the next hit counter must be damage. Again, that's what you'd do if the hits came from separate attacks, and there's no differentiation between single-attack hits and multiple-attack hits.

Ergo, the official interpretation is correct as laid out by the rules. :D

Steve

[Colonel_Coo]

Ahhh, mercy upon me great parse-fu master!

Per the revised rulebook:
Hits: If you score hits against an enemy unit during your assault phase or airstrike phase, place face-down hit counters next to the enemy unit.
• The fi st hit counter received by each of your opponent’s units during your airstrike
and/or assault phase is a face-down Disrupted counter.
• The second hit counter received by a Soldier or Aircraft is a face-down
Destroyed counter.
• The second hit counter received by a Vehicle is a face-down Damaged counter.
• The third hit counter received by a Vehicle is a face-down Destroyed counter.



I hate it when I am wrong and defeated! ;)

[Y2UAsk]

Ahh, but 'tis through graciousness in adversity that we demonstrate our quality of character.

Steve