What Axis Disadvantage???

[axis_roll]

what rules do you play that the Allies NEVER win? I can't believe that. In a Russia attack game (standard rules by milton bradley second edition, russia restricted in an option), the allies should never lose straight up... in fact I'd bet my house on that!!

In a non-RR game, $18 worth of units are added to the axis to make the game more balanced.

Please elaborate how the axis never loses?

[Muddog]

The only time I see the allies lose is when the American player doesn't reinforce his allies. Once you get the troops flowing over to Europe, they are hard to beat.

[Davegets]

I must say that all I keep hearing about and reading about is this DISADVANTAGE that the Axis has. I have been plying this game since my early high school years and I'm 34 now - I Have NEVER Seen The Allies Win... EVER!!!!! I changes are to be made to the game - Which I think there shoud be, than maybe it's the Allies that need the help... In keeping with the change, We (myself and the two people I usually play against) have, over time made some changes ourselves - Some are original, and other we've taken from other games.

Here they are:

1 - The production chart. We've assigned each unit a set period of time to be built. We have a chart broken into 8 sections with a coounter that moves up (actually around since ouor chart is circular) each turn. Any pieces that are in the section indicated by the marker are eligable for play, the rest you wait for. Since Tanks, Planes, and SHips take time to build, we felt that you shouldn't get these pieces straight out - this really makes you think and plan ahead.

2 - Air Force & Naval Air - Since the fighter has such a big advantage over naval units, we've balanced it out by creating a second fighter. The cost is the same as is it's defense roll. The difference is that the LAND BASED fighter only attacks at sea on a roll of 2 or less and as normal on land, while the NAVAL fighter attacked as a normal fighter at sea ( 3 or less), but only on a 2 or less on land. (We used white out to tell the two types apart) It makes a big difference in the game if everyone's navy isn't sunk after the first round of the game.

Some of the other changes we've made have more to do with game play, from a RISK type game where we pick territories, to a game where all you have at the start is your capital. ALL OF OUR GAMES ARE FOR WORLD DOMINATION.

That's all I have right now - Let Me Know...

[Davegets]

First I must say that OUR games always seem to be marathons. Having said that, we do not use any optional rules, but we do always play for World Domination.

What normally happens is in the first few turns ALL naval units are eliminated by fighters that seem to have an unfair advantage. Now that the navies are gone everyone is land locked and unable to support each other. We normally don't see ships again until late in the game or maybe in the Pacific - but even that is rare (plus they're to expensive to build).

So now that the allies can't really support each other, Germany builds STEEL, and these tanks storm across and will usually take Karelia in a few turns (even if Russia attacks Eastern Europe first). By this time Germany can then usually storm through and begin to eat up Africa. By this time they have enough funds to support a navy and work on England. While this is going on Japan has built an industrial complex on the main land (yes we use the limited production rule for new complexes) and has also built a pile of tanks which eats up the Russian territories. It often becomes a race to see which Axis country takes the Russian capital. Now that Japan has suffiecient IPCs it can focus on the USA. Japan will usually take Alaska and Western Canada to get a foothold, then goes from there. Japan DOES NOT attack the US Navy in the Pacific, by doing this it forces the US player to decide what to do with it, either build it up, attack Japan's navy (which has been grouped together by now, and is better on defence) or move it around to the Atlantic (where Germany can sink it).

Almost every game goes the same way - some take longer (depending on dice rolls, etc...) than others but it seems to end the same way. That's why we've developed our own rules and game variants.

Thanks for the reply.

[Bridger]

The AxisandAllies.net website is a PBEM (play by email)ladder for A&A. They play basic 2nd endition rules (with a few clarifications). This seems to be a very top of the line site, with over 200 members for a long time. They have a system of bidding for axis. Both players bid on units (or just ICPs) for axis countries. For example, player 1 bids 2 japanise infantry in manchuria, 2 tanks for libia, and a sub for Southern Europe (total IPC = 24). Player 2 bids his forces and they are a total of 22 ICPs. Player 2 gets axis.

Basicly people are bidding "this is the minimum advantage i will need on axis to win." Seems like a good system, and most bids seem to be around 20-25 from what i can tell. This tells me people feel they can't win axis unless they have these extra 20-25 ICPs of units at the start of the game.

[Darksideknight]

Dave the quickest way to accomplish two allied goals is to build more navel units which in turn, setting aside very cold rolling should elimanate the German air force. If that still does not work try playing with two hit battle ships. But they don't repear after a hit they are just put on their side and if hit again they sink, this solves the problem of no allied navy. You can buy a carrier and land american fighters on it to get the ball rolling.
-Jason

[Davegets]

I'm sorry you all feel that way... I just don't see it.

[Bridger]

Also, you mentioned that the navies don't seem to get built again for a long time. This might be why you loose as allies? I don't know how you could posibly have america/UK support russia without a navy? Of course russia is gonna get clobbered if the allies don't have a navy!

[Davegets]

THe point we are missing is that it takes longer to build a navy than it does to sink it - 2 hit or not. If you have a strong AXIS player, they will always maintain enough air force / subs to sink your navy. Planes and Subs are cheaper than Battleships. By keeping the Allies with out a navy you buy enough time for the Axis to build up enopugh IPCs to in a war of attrition against the Allies - and ultimately TIME is all you need. Once Russia falls, Africa goes, then either Japan takes Alaska, Western Canada, Western USA, or Germany makes a move on the UK. We've played with an Aggresive Russia and a passive / defensive Russia - It Doesn't Matter... If the Allies can't build a navy - and they can't against a good AXIS Player... The Allies NEVER Win...

[Udengaard]

Try saving all of UK's cash on its first turn (yes, buy nothing).
Move two US fighters into range of UK seazone.
On UK's second turn use all its cash to buy a carrier plus 4-5 transporters.
Then land two fighters on the carrier on USA's second turn.

This fleet should be able to wipe out the entire Luftwaffe, with the carrier surviving. Just make sure they can't bring any ships to the battle.
If you think Russia can hold its own for one turn, you should be in business.

Of course, I could be wrong smile.gif

It's interesting how different play groups can develop different strategies and completely different ideas about game balance. My own group back in the days always played with restricted Russia, and we found that game to be fairly balanced.

Competitive internet players are probably strongest of all because they develop their skill by facing players with many different backgrounds.

[Davegets]

SO... the key to your strategy is that THEY can't bring any ships into play.... OK What if.... The whole key to the game is to be FLUID... You have to be able to adapt and over come. You have to have a plan but be flexible enough to change your purchases, etc... to deal with what's happening, YET be able to have enough foresight to stick with what you want to do. It's like Chess - you have to be thinking a turn or two ahead... Maybe you have to delay for a turn - SO WHAT. Sometimes waiting a turn isn't all that bad. Build what you need to accomplish your goals, but be flexible enough to deal with change. AS FOR "RESTRICTING RUSSIA" that would imply that the ALLIES have the edge, and I (we) don't see it. Russia always attacks Eastern Europe, first turn, so they can ALWAYS last at least one turn, but it isn't enough - They Still fall.

[Davegets]

Another KEY to the Axis edge is that the German player and the Japan player have to work together, and not as individuals. If no one believes me - I can get another player. We'll be the axis and yoou and two of your friends can be the allies. We'll hook up for a game of Axis & allies Iron Blitz, play on line and we'll see!

[option]

Davegets,

Allow me to make some suggestions:

1. R1 (russia turn 1) send 1 transport and 1 fighter into the German tranie & sub. Following second edition rules, the German sub must declare losses before they counter strike (same as in any other battle) next they must counter attack with the transport first (lowest die shoots first according to the rules - only exception is subs on the attack). Example: Russia roles 1 hit, Germany chooses to sink the transport - result Russia can only lose the transport if at all because the German sub can not hit the fighter and can not run away). If the German sank the sub instead then the German transport remains hitting half the time that the sub would have and the Russians can still sink their transport before the plane). My ultimate point here is that the Russian sub is allowed to do something (not involved in this combat) more interesting:

2. Send the Russian sub to the German sub off of France. They both role at 2's but the Russians get the sneak attack ever round. If the Germans run away then they have to move one zone to the West (where they will not be able to join in the attack on the main British fleet).

3. Russia Attacks Ukraine with all INF from Cauc, 1 fighter. One or two more armor and maybe one or two men from Kar. By doing this you kill a German figter and 2 tanks before Germany ever gets to use them. Germany is now down to 1 bomber & 4 fighters.

5. Attack Japan in Manch in full force or build a wall in Yak.

4. Build 8 men in Kar, return fighters there, move any men left in Russia to Kar - As long as you didn't take everything from Kar into the battle in #3, the Germans should have a rough time taking Kar.

On Germany's turn, they now have to sink the main UK fleet (1BB,1Trn), the UK Canadian Trns, the US Trns, The second UK BB, and the UK sub with the remaining resources. Since Germany can no longer attack the UK with ship support they will have to take losses to fighters. This next part is the key: Germany has to stay at least even with Russia in land unit production to stalemate. If Germany buys 8 men you are down to $8, not enough to buy a fighter to replace those lost. If Germany is buying a large number of tanks or fighters on turn 1 and you have never seen the allies lose then Russia is not doing its job. Russia should only buy men, only place them in Kar until they out number Germany or until Japan is on their doorstep. Russia should rarely if ever send troops East (unless the Brits and Americans have things under control in Europe).

On UK turn 1 (lets assume that all other UK boats are dead) buy an aircraft carrier and a transport. NEVER buy another BB - not worth the $. On US turn 1 land two fighters on the UK carrier and send the transport to join the UK fleet (usuially either the American or UK transport off of North America survives Germany turn 1) That leaves 1 Aircraft Carrier (defense role of 3), 2 fighters (def 4 each) and 2 trns (def 1 each) against any fighters Germany wants to send. UK and America, if necessary can rebuild this force EVERY turn and Germany CAN NOT KEEP SPENDING THE MONEY ON FIGHTERS or it will be crushed by overwhelming Russian forces.

Any turn after this type of fleet survives, UK only needs to buy additional transport (cannon fodder for the heavy hitters not to mention invasion capability).

In tournament play, the bid goes to the Axis for a reason, Japan can not directly threaten the Russian capital until at minimum turn 3 (and generally not with enough force until turn 5). By that time Germany is facing an invasion in France, a UK/American fleet that it can not destroy, and a wall of Russian men to the East.

[TomJag2]

In a straight-up game, the Axis have no chance. I won the GenCon A&A mega tourney last year, playing the Allies every round, giving up 24 points to the Axis to excellent opponents. Try an aggressive Allied stance in your games and see what the results might be.

Russia:
Build 2 tanks in Moscow, 4 Inf in Karelia.
Combat: 3 tanks, 1 ftr, 8 inf to Ukraine
1 ftr, sub, trans sinks German Baltic Fleet
Non-Com: 4 Inf from Moscow-Karelia
2 inf from Evenki-Moscow
Pull 2 inf from far east back
1 tank from far east to Evenki
land both fighters in Karelia

Karelia and Ukraine is bait. Germany can take either but is not strong enough to take both. If Germany takes one of them, counterattack and eliminate all of Germany's armor. You'll either have 5 tanks to attack Karelia or you'll have 2 fighters and 3 tanks to attack Ukraine (plus infantry to absorb losses). This pulls Germany's teeth and Russia can turn around to take on Japan while US and Britain reinforce Russia and march on Germany.

Britain:
Build: 1 carrier, 1 transport (Save 4 IPC)
Combat: If Egypt has fallen, amphibious assault from India, supported by India fighter and England bomber, 1 infantry from Persia
Fighters sink German subs, if any are in North Sea, land in Karelia if it still holds out, Moscow if not.

US:
Build: 4 transports, 1 inf in Atlantic
NonCom: Bomber to Moscow (Strat Bomb Karelia if German owned)
US based fighters land on Brit carrier
BB to Panama
West Coast Trans blocks Japanese from Panama (forcing Japan to trade fighters for BB next turn or let BB get to Atlantic)

[ December 30, 2003, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: TomJag2 ]

[Davegets]

Well after just loosing 2 out of 3 games to a very good player (Thanks Dan) I (we) will admit that we may have been doing a few things wrong - or at least differently. The whole key to the Allies is thatthey have to be unified and work together. Maybe that was our problem - too many individual goals for the allies, which allows the axis to step up. If the Allies focus on German, German gets into a world of hurt long before Japan can come to their aid. Even with complex(es) on the coast Japan can not get enough into the frey to save Germany. HOWEVER, being as stubborn as we are, we are not set out to develope some counter measures and such... We'll raise up to the challenge again.

[ March 02, 2004, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Davegets ]

[Reo]

Anybody saying they have never seen the Allies win a game has never seen any worth a crap play it. I have never been beat. Now having said that I can say that if I met my match and lost it would be with the Axis. Becouse if you have a run of bad rolls in the begining of the game and you are playing someone who is like me you will never recover. If I was playing the Allies and had some bad rolls in the begining of a game I still have the economy to regroup and strike again. I have played alot of people and I have lost Russia and still won. In another game I lost the UK and I still won. In my times playing the Axis I have lost Germany a few times and still won. I have never lost Japan or the US.
I will add that the UK is the most important ally country. The US must play to support them and if you don't do it that way you tip the balance to the Axis. The man who developed the game says the US should pick a theater and stick to it. That is good advise against the computer, but not a person.As the Allies you need to contain one and smash the other. The British player is the one who dictates that becouse he goes before the US and if the US doesn't follow suit you are doomed against any worthy advisary.

A simple over view on Stratagy would be for the US to concentrate on buying things that will help protect Russia and move the starting pieces in china to india, where the UK will put a factory in the 1st or 2nd turn. If Japan gets off to a good start then the UK factory should be in South Africa. The game is tougher, but the UK needs to buy a factory on the first turn, not a carrier. When the US is ready to move up, then they can put ships in the water around thier little island.

If everything goese the Axis way for the first 4 turns or so, big deal, becouse it is suppose to. Turn 5 the US should be ready to support the british and from there it is just a slow smother of pushing units into Russia. Japan has kicked my ass and took Russia from me quite a few times, but I have always had Germany about the same time I lost Russia and I have never lost.

I am looking for someone to defeat me, if you are out there I can be contacted at Reo069@aol.com

[CommanderofWar]

Dave you are way off base. about 95% of the time, I have allied navy in the atlantic on turn one.

If you going to hit my UK carrier, tranny in North Sea, then I'll just build it again.

With Germany plane's losses, Germany cant afford to keep building planes without Russia just going right for Berlin.

[gerikes101]

I agree with "option"'s comment of the idea of UK building a carrier and US landing planes on it. By turn 2, you can have defense rolls of 3 and 2 4's with only 18 additional ipc's (since the fighters are on the board to begin with) along with some transports for "fodder" incase the luftwaffe makes a suicide attack to rid the atlantic. Another strategy is use UK's first turn to build a factory (probably india) and their second turn to build the carrier, landing USA's fighters on round 2. I take this second approach because there isn't that much of a navy to protect from the germans rd. 2 after they wipe a lot of it out in round 1 (Anything left over you can just hide far away).

[DY]

"option" has pretty much laid out my Allied strategy. I prefer 3 transports and 4 men as USA on turn 1. The 4th boat will be empty the following turn and statistically 3 transports should be enough to ward off the German bomber.

The Axis cannot easily defeat this strategy without Heavy Bombers or Industrial Tech and going for tech rolls is a better strategy for them than going for the luck required to save Germany or capture Russia.

Remember the key is to hit ukraine, not East Europe. I never hit Manchuria as I find you delay Japan longer by retreating.

If Japan is smart, you will lose your factory in India. Never build factories for the Axis to capture and use against you. Possibly build a South African on turn 2 or 3, but generally just focus on a turn 2 or 3 D-Day.

[gh0st]

As my arm gets uncomfortable patting myself on the back, I will avoid the "never been beaten" sillyness. (Anyone who has never been beaten is not playing players of his calibre. Period.)

I will say that in our games, the Axis has not won in...heck, recent memory. We are VERY evenly matched players and when experience and ability are equivalent, the Allies have a distinct advantage.

We are on our third game playing with bidding and the Axis still have not won. Hopefully, my opponent won't recognize me on here, but I will go on record as saying that I am on my way to losing the third. I think the next game will be real interesting as we will finally have it narrowed down to the "optimal" bid.

Of course, the new edition comes out before then, so we may never know.

[smo63]

Guys...talk is cheap. Listen to tomjag2. He is correct. He is the current GEN CON Mega Tournament Team Champion. You really have not played AA until you play the best players in the country in a tourney at GEN CON! Until then anyone is game! :cool:

[UsmcIceman]

:rolleyes:
When you done losing with the allies 100% of the time I would #1 check for loaded die. #2 stop playing vs. my self and let some one else play. #3 Go online and play the online version. After you lose 100 times playing the axis you will see what your doing wrong. LOL.