New Juno Maps for Download [Archive]

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Remember-OWS-

07-12-2006, 10:49 AM

Cruizin2000

07-12-2006, 10:55 AM

I think that they're still trying to alienate the folks that can't download maps, who go to game stores that don't order Combat Zone, or who can't afford the CZ stuff from Evil Bay.

They should make these available for purchase but they seem to be making their money from this overpriced game.

C2000

Remember-OWS-

07-12-2006, 11:09 AM

No, WOTC is going to leave all miniatures for Dreamblade.... a money catching game with ENORMOUS prize... (This is no Joke, let it go and you'll see)

Qmark

07-12-2006, 11:12 AM

Is anyone actually buying Dreamblade?

WotC Bob

07-12-2006, 11:17 AM

I will advertise for WOTC, not because it is my cup of tea, but because these maps are really nice.

The problem is: WHY THEY WERE NOT THE ONES IN THE NEW STARTER.

Full size Juno Maps (Zip Format and PDF) (http://www.wizards.com/avalonhill/rules/Juno_Maps_Full.zip)

Because I just finished making them yesterday? Seriously, I'm the online producer and that is my complete sphere of influence. The maps are something I do on the side because I enjoy the process and I know some people will have fun with them. The maps in the starter, or the maps Organized Play does are all done by other people and I'm not involved in those processes except, possibly, at an early playtesting level.

WotC Bob

07-12-2006, 11:18 AM

Is anyone actually buying Dreamblade?

Since it doesn't release until August, it is a bit of a challenge, although demo kits are appearing on ebay.

Qmark

07-12-2006, 11:22 AM

Since it doesn't release until AugustWell, that certainly does explain why I haven't seen it anywhere.

While we're on maps, tell the people for whom you design these maps that there are people out here who are begging to pay money for stuff you guys are giving away for free.

mlund

07-12-2006, 11:37 AM

Also note that the Starter does not contain any pieces from D-Day, hence putting 6 maps designed exclusively for an amphibious assault in a box with miniatures that provide no avenues to actually make such an assault would be ... um ... ill-advised to put it politely.

Seriously, just because this board's entire function has degraded into "I can whine the longest and loudest" doesn't mean you can't put in a little effort into making your complaints moderately lucid.

- Marty Lund

WotC Bob

07-12-2006, 11:49 AM

Well, that certainly does explain why I haven't seen it anywhere.

While we're on maps, tell the people for whom you design these maps that there are people out here who are begging to pay money for stuff you guys are giving away for free.

I do this almost daily

Der Leiter

07-12-2006, 11:51 AM

The maps look great, and can't wait to try them out.

And with the all water map we can finally have proper Ka-Mi vs Amtrack battles.

Ewokhunter92

07-12-2006, 12:06 PM

While we're on maps, tell the people for whom you design these maps that there are people out here who are begging to pay money for stuff you guys are giving away for free.

Yeah,no kidding. I just spent well over $150 in the past week alone cutomizing maps and doing it myself.

Seems like WotC doesn't really want to make money.

I seriously believe Wizkids and WotC have some kind of poker game going on to see who can make an awesome game and then kill it faster.

polish_horsy

07-12-2006, 01:12 PM

Nice maps. Thanks. I wish there was more of this commercially available as a playable item that I don't have to manufacture myself. But that doesn't change this... Bob, I appreciate the nice work on this.

Modern Major-General

07-12-2006, 01:35 PM

Thanks for the maps. I am glad they are free as well as the scenarios. I do not know why people want to pay for what they can get for free. :rolleyes:

Good job so far WOTC.

dracos42

07-12-2006, 01:36 PM

The maps look great, and can't wait to try them out.

And with the all water map we can finally have proper Ka-Mi vs Amtrack battles.

It's good to see some people on the boards are still grounded in reality. :)

Der Leiter, if the all-water map was numbered, I'd challenge you to a Ka-Mi vs Amtrack fight. Can the US player bring in a Higgens boat with a passenger? Not that I have a Higgens boat yet. :(

Or, AAM - Axis vs. Allies water polo.

Mike L.

NorthernRommel

07-12-2006, 01:56 PM

I could provide that.......but I will just bite my tongue.

Ewokhunter92

07-12-2006, 02:16 PM

Thanks for the maps. I am glad they are free as well as the scenarios. I do not know why people want to pay for what they can get for free. :rolleyes:

Good job so far WOTC.

yes cause all of us here have laser printer maps and unlimited supply of good paper that will endure years of use. :rolleyes:

Having people make thier own maps, fix the stats of all the pieces and come up with better rules and scenarios is not exactly a wise business decision.

heck, most people here have already said they can get better pieces elsewhere, so what exactly does that leave WotC and A&AM?

WotC Bob

07-12-2006, 02:30 PM

What do people think of the way I rendered the cities on these maps?

RaidingParty

07-12-2006, 02:34 PM

Because I just finished making them yesterday? Seriously, I'm the online producer and that is my complete sphere of influence. The maps are something I do on the side because I enjoy the process and I know some people will have fun with them. The maps in the starter, or the maps Organized Play does are all done by other people and I'm not involved in those processes except, possibly, at an early playtesting level.
You've made a lot of great maps, Bob. I've used the How map set regularly and they're great for 3-4 players. They should just hire you on as Chief Map Designer and get those other slowpokes to design Dreamblade or something.

Or, AAM - Axis vs. Allies water polo.
You know, that's crazy enough that it just might work. :D

Der Leiter

07-12-2006, 02:50 PM

What do people think of the way I rendered the cities on these maps?

I like them. They're a little bit different, which is nice.

It's good to see some people on the boards are still grounded in reality. :)

Der Leiter, if the all-water map was numbered, I'd challenge you to a Ka-Mi vs Amtrack fight. Can the US player bring in a Higgens boat with a passenger? Not that I have a Higgens boat yet. :(

Or, AAM - Axis vs. Allies water polo.

Mike L.

No, but I'll let you use a few Sherman DDs. At half cost even! ;)

mlund

07-12-2006, 02:51 PM

I'd be interested to see some Island Hopping scenarios myself - maybe a split-forces Assault from two adjacent coasts onto an island? The Defender sets up on the Island with his Objective. The Attacker sets out from his Coasts, each with an Objective Marker. Japan as the Defender and the United States as the Attacker (since they have Higgins Boats and Amtracks).

If the Defender ever controls either of the Attacker's objectives, it forces a withdrawal by the attacker (Defender Victory), otherwise the Attacker wins if he controls the Defender's objective at the end of any turn from Turn 7 to Turn 10. If no one wins by turn 10, the Defender wins.

I could see Higgins Boats, Amtracks, Marines, Arisaka Rifles, SNLF Paratroopers, Duckboat Tanks, and all sorts of destruction ensue there. Probably 3 maps for the whole scenario. It could be a lot of fun.

- Marty Lund

NorthernRommel

07-12-2006, 02:54 PM

What do people think of the way I rendered the cities on these maps?

Its an improvement from the old ones.

Pasalades

07-12-2006, 03:29 PM

Damn vacation. I'm on here late. :( Oh well. Uh, now that you can see what all of the maps look like can anybody make a stab at what part of Juno Beach this is -- like I asked several weeks ago? (Hint: The right place was brought up briefly) Oh and if you look at the beach the tide is out. Beaches tend not to have that kind of depth usually. I like the look of the city hexes, but when I get home I want to print them up to see how they look on the printed page.

Muenchausen

07-12-2006, 04:57 PM

What do people think of the way I rendered the cities on these maps?
Thats the very first thing I noticed and I like it. I'm looking forward to getting the maps reproduced and trying them out.

Yakumo_Fujji

07-12-2006, 05:09 PM

Hi Bob.
Maps are looking awsome should be nice to play on.
I like the rendering of the city's
Grtz

RBloom0566

07-12-2006, 06:43 PM

I do this almost daily

Bob -

Nice maps! You're one of the few who hear the cry and answer the call. Good man.

Robert

RBloom0566

07-12-2006, 06:55 PM

What do people think of the way I rendered the cities on these maps?

Just gave them a hard look. I like how the towns don't seem rigidly locked into the hexes by conforming precisely to the hexsides. Yours seem to just "use the hex," not be held prisoner by the hex.

Very natural looking. Nice.

Q: Any chance you guys could go to a map-numbering system? Coordinates would be awesome for randomly determining objectives in home games and a variety of other house rules.

pirateclem

07-12-2006, 07:24 PM

I'm just glad that I work somwhere that I can print these maps out 11x17, full color on heavy bond cardstock. I feel sorry for the rest of you that cannot. One of the things that amazes me is how cheap I can create these from the given PDF's at our facility yet WoTC still put those crappy light paper foldy maps in the starter set(s). Rediculous.

Ok, done complaining. I just appreciate Bob doing the work to create these VERY badly needed maps!

Pasalades

07-12-2006, 07:46 PM

Q: Any chance you guys could go to a map-numbering system? Coordinates would be awesome for randomly determining objectives in home games and a variety of other house rules.

The last D-Day scenario will require a coordinate overlay on the map. As for the others, I'm not in the position to give an answer myself. But I will take this into consideration with any future planning I do with Bob. Your question does make wonder if some people would like an alternative to the Victory Point System I've grown accustomed to using in these scenarios. I suppose folks can play the scenarios anyway they want or just use the maps for their own games/ideas. Sounds like good fun to me.

Darth Nazi

07-12-2006, 08:38 PM

:D

You will get a thumbs up from me about these maps! I love em'

Now instead of using our Turtle tank and trying to make really bad B like Godzilla flicks with the Higgins Boats I can try and storm the beach like "Private Ryan"

Ewokhunter92

07-12-2006, 09:15 PM

Does anyone know just how much it would cost to have these printed out at kinkos or some other place like office max?

RBloom0566

07-12-2006, 10:29 PM

Does anyone know just how much it would cost to have these printed out at kinkos or some other place like office max?

Upwards of $30 for all maps except the 6-part and since.

Grenzewolf

07-13-2006, 06:17 AM

Bob
Thanks for the nice map. This as all the others will be put to good use. I like the way the road net-work is represented. I will be able to play with some movement and possibly "Line of Sight" on this between vehicles and soldiers. On the constructive criticism side.......... I think the buildings are too geometric and lose the feel of a french town or villiage. I realy should just scratch the last statement as I think it is a great map and a much needed one but I dont think you were only fishing for compliments when you asked our opinion.
Thanks again Bob!

TheJudge

07-13-2006, 06:40 AM

I can only wonder why better maps weren't put in the starters also? Since D-Day just came out, a map with a beach invasion in mind would have been ideal but even the new map is just a big lake. Phooey.

We got 2 new maps, 2 sides with a big lake that is almost unusable, and the other 4 sheets are the same maps everyone already has! So, the $25 retail price nets you 2 new pieces of map that are usuable with the old maps, 2 new maps that are for....I'm not sure what those are for, a bass fishing contest maybe, and 2 boosters. At least the boosters have some value, I did get a Panzer 2, a Renault, and 2 Panzergrenadiers.

I like the maps that Bob posted but since these cost more to print out and laminate than a new starter, it's more of a tease for people who can't do this or can't afford it. :(

Ewokhunter92

07-13-2006, 09:45 AM

Remember-OWS-

07-13-2006, 10:01 AM

Cruizin2000

07-13-2006, 10:17 AM

Well, I just got back from kinkos and they told me for all 6 of these maps, printed on quality paper/cardstock......$65+ tax

um, screw that.

This download your own map stuff is idealistically pathetic.

I agree and have been saying this for months. When ever I see a new scenario I get excited until I see that it involves maps that weren't included in the starter. It's nice that people want to make the scenarios but the "print'em out your damn self" maps aren't working for most of the others here. It's almost a waste of time for them I feel. Last month's HBF sceanrio was on the money - this month's isn't.

I'm sure that there's someone somewhere that can make up professional AAM style maps to play on that could be sold in game stores. I'm also sure that that person would have more orders than they could process. If that happend I'm sure that Wizards would send out the copyright police and shut'em down.

It's nice that WOTC Bob makes maps for download but as you can see there's way more folks that can't/don't do it due to money or whatever than the folks that can/do do it.

C2000

NEVjr

07-13-2006, 10:33 AM

Ewok, Why Cardstock.
Just plain double side paper quality and then, what you say in English -Laminated-, but in reality it should be plastified (That would be more correct).
At Staples in Canada, I can print the map double side for $4 (a Sheet), then Plastified the thing for $2.00 and "Voila"!
So 3 double side map x 2 = 6 sheet: $36CAN
its called laminated because it involves samwhiching the paper between 2 sheets of plastic, to plasiticize something is to make it more flexible or shapable, and ive never even heared of plastified.

i went to my local sure print center, and they said $9 a sheet pinted and laminated, way too much for me

RBloom0566

07-13-2006, 10:47 AM

Able, Baker, Charlie, Dog, Easy, Fox & George...
Printed on 24# paper...
Laminated...

~$32-36 w/tax.

Sheet of plexiglass to cover maps...~$36.

These are the prices my co-player paid, IIRC.

Ewokhunter92

07-13-2006, 11:05 AM

Able, Baker, Charlie, Dog, Easy, Fox & George...
Printed on 24# paper...
Laminated...

~$32-36 w/tax.

Sheet of plexiglass to cover maps...~$36.

having your customers having to spend MORE money on a game that should be available by the company...priceless

Remember-OWS-

07-13-2006, 11:06 AM

NEVjr, over here, we say Laminated, because it is done on a Presswood, to hand up, mostly done for pictures, like you can get at Coscto.
Plastizied is plastic put on top and bottom, then heated. The result is flexible and when the paper is large, like the Combat Zone D-Day map, you can roll it.

Ewokhunter92

07-13-2006, 11:06 AM

Also, the prices I gave are what the manager at Kinkos gave me. this was for good paper, not regular typing paper.

Also, I do not have a staples here and office max and office depot both said they can't do it. Sure it may be the employees not wanting to do it, but I can't force them to do it, now can I?

Ewokhunter92

07-13-2006, 11:08 AM

Another thing, when did Donald Rumsfield take over at WotC?

"play with the maps you have, not with the maps you want"

RBloom0566

07-13-2006, 11:08 AM

having your customers having to spend MORE money on a game that should be available by the company...priceless

He re-did the maps so that the originals wouldn't get all torn up. Did the additionals at his own choice. Did the plexiglass because we got tired of "Mobile Terrain."

At no point did someone from WotC/AH kidnap him, take him to Kinkos, hold a gun to his head and say "Copy or Die."

Ewokhunter92

07-13-2006, 11:18 AM

He re-did the maps so that the originals wouldn't get all torn up. Did the additionals at his own choice. Did the plexiglass because we got tired of "Mobile Terrain."

At no point did someone from WotC/AH kidnap him, take him to Kinkos, hold a gun to his head and say "Copy or Die."

I wasn't referring to you/him, I was saying the basic. The fact WotC want's people to buy a super size laser printer just to play thier game or go to a print shop and spend $30-60 on maps that they could easily make themselves and sell for $25.

At least give people the option of buying already made maps.

WotC Bob

07-13-2006, 11:20 AM

I will reissue everything with map numbering, and try to make sure all new maps have them on them. The reissue of maps might not happen until after GenCon though as I'm busy with pre-GenCon things right now and I'm trying to take some time off to go camping with my kids.

Was the old numbering scheme I used good for everyone (other than the fact that it needs to be done more subtly)?

Ewokhunter92

07-13-2006, 11:26 AM

hey Bob, just to bring it up, I am not dissing your maps or work, it all looks good. I just wish it could be more accessible to people without capable printers and whatnot.

LloydChristmas

07-13-2006, 11:50 AM

This is a quick tip for printing your own maps. Worked GREAT for me, and my friends all say they look great..... This is a cheaper option than lamination, there's no glare, and they provide a nice flat surface to play on. Not counting drying time, I mounted (12) 11x17 maps that I downloaded in about 1 hour. They fit together nicely and stack nicely. Total cost for doing 12 is roughly $20 + how much you spend on prints (maybe $1 / map).

1) Use the 11x17 versions from online and print them anywhere that will print a regular 11x17 in color. Don't overspend on paper and don't laminate them.

2) Go to Michael's or another art or framing store and buy 1/4" thick foamcore (which is normally used behind framed pictures) and some spray adhesive.

3) Spray the foamcore with the adhesive on only one side. Mount as many 11x17 maps as you can fit on each foamcore sheet, on one side only. Gently rub out any air pockets from center to the edges of each map. The edge of a ruler or long edge of a round pen works great for this. Let each dry completely.

4) Cut each map out using a straight edge and an X-acto knife at a slight taper toward the center of the map. Use a piece of scrap wood underneath to keep from tearing up your floor or table.

5) Show them off to your friends.

johnnyonthespot

07-13-2006, 02:01 PM

Hey, Bob. Great job on the maps. They look wonderful. The new town hexes look different, but equally good.

I particularly like the bluffs and the fact that there is only one possible path for vehicles to take to get off the beach.

I also like the blank water map... gives Germans and Japanese players opportunities to shoot at Amtracks and Higgins boats before they land.

A couple things about maps in the future:

1) You mentioned that you talk to your superiors on an almost daily basis about the demand for a map pack... Please, if this is in the works, tell them that the material used in the new Starter Set just isn't going to cut it. I don't have one yet, but from what others have said, they're quite flimsy. With as much criticism as there has been around here about the quality of AAM, this is a problem that you guys know about in advance of (possible) production.

2) I prefer the unnumbered maps, but if people want them numbered, hey, go ahead and make everybody happy!

3) I may be the only one, but I haven't forgotten about that "Help Make The Map" wide river/bridge map! Still waiting... :D I know you're busy.

4) The new tournament scenario contest is cool in that it allows players to create maps. Good thinking.

Ewokhunter92

07-13-2006, 02:31 PM

mlund

07-13-2006, 03:06 PM

This is the part that really bugs me, there are several people here that complain about the quality of the maps and that we shouldn't have to laminate them to be worthy of play use.

THEN, the same people say that more free downloadable maps are good as they can print and laminate them themselves making better maps.

So which is it? getting maps from WotC or making them yourself? if you are going to laminate them anyway, who cares what quality paper they use as long as they are decent maps.

You're missing something.

When a new player buys a new Starter, they get 6 map sheets, 4 of which you simply can't play the game without (Able 1-2, Baker 1-2, Charlie 1-2, Dog 1-2). The old map stock held up under regular play. The new map stock does not.

That's a completely different bird than optional, add-on / scenario specific maps that I can download and print at my leisure. I'm fine with printing and laminating add-ons. I'm not fine with expecting new players who buy a starter set to have to take their core game board to a third party and get it laminated before play otherwise its ruined.

Able, Baker, Charlie, and Dog 1-2 are basically the "game board" part of the game from the box. I expect a different level of access to them than I do from free online downloadable expansion materials.

I'd be delighted if WotC made E, F, G, and Juno maps available for purchase on durable, high-quality map stock - but I'm not going to shed any tears if they don't. Having the Starter Set maps you buy in the box fall apart, however, is a problem.

- Marty Lund

RBloom0566

07-13-2006, 03:17 PM

Ewokhunter92

07-13-2006, 04:08 PM

You're missing something.

When a new player buys a new Starter, they get 6 map sheets, 4 of which you simply can't play the game without (Able 1-2, Baker 1-2, Charlie 1-2, Dog 1-2). The old map stock held up under regular play. The new map stock does not.

That's a completely different bird than optional, add-on / scenario specific maps that I can download and print at my leisure. I'm fine with printing and laminating add-ons. I'm not fine with expecting new players who buy a starter set to have to take their core game board to a third party and get it laminated before play otherwise its ruined.

Able, Baker, Charlie, and Dog 1-2 are basically the "game board" part of the game from the box. I expect a different level of access to them than I do from free online downloadable expansion materials.

I'd be delighted if WotC made E, F, G, and Juno maps available for purchase on durable, high-quality map stock - but I'm not going to shed any tears if they don't. Having the Starter Set maps you buy in the box fall apart, however, is a problem.

- Marty Lund

Ok, I do agree with you on making maps with betterquality paper, but the fact remains that the majority players do in fact laminate. WotC knows this. Whether or not they utilized this info and made the paper thinner and saved some costs (which IS a business decision, not being cheap)I don't know, but it makes sense.

Now, Most people here have verified with fact that this game is not aimed at kids nor is it sold it mass retail outlets, online yes, not B&M stores and sold primarily at gaming stores. With this info, new players are either educated, experienced players, and know what to expect with a minis game, or they are new players and should be educated by store owners/operators. After all, it is thier job and obviously interest in getting more games sold.

I do know alot of people here have purchased the new starter for both the maps and in hopes of getting a good rare or 2. Even after hearing about the cheaper maps. If stores are pushing off junk games or not helping thier customers, it's not the player's fault.

If I were to go to a games workshop and buy $50 or even $200 worth of Warhammer stuff, get home and find out I have to assemble it, who's fault would this be? Mine? Then I should have read the package or do some follow up. The store's? they they should have told me all about the product or ask if I know what I am getting into.

Most gaming stores I go to always ask me about a game I am looking at.

case in point, I wanted to check out Zombies, and picked up the military theme one. I was told up front that it's technically and expansion and would have to buy the 1st one for the basic stuff and then I could skip the 2nd set and go right into this one. A side note after purchasing, he told me that most rules are clarified and simplified on line at the manufacturers web site.

It wasn't so hard to explain to me these things, so other gaming stores could get this knowledge to new players as well. Another thing, if stores know these have bad maps and are bad investments, tell THEM and they shouldn't order the new ones anymore. I know of lots of places who order what's new just to have the newest item. But in this case, they should try to find the older ones for new players. Pretty simple.

Remember, if the game stores don't do their part, then new players won't get involved. Just my opinion.