Good or Bad 100 point axis armies? (in the right place this time)

[zkraut]

I'm having some trouble picking a few armies that I want to use. Well I just ordered a Vet tiger, Brummbar, and 5 Elite panzer IVs.

Army one:
Vet Tiger 65
Hauptsturm 7
4x SS PGs 20
Grizzled Vet 8

Army 2
3 x Elite Panzer IV 56
Brummbar 22
Hauptsturm 7
3x SS Panzergrenadiers

Army 3

5x SS PGs
Hauptsturm
Panzerschreck
Brummbar
Stuka
Elite PanzerIV


Which army should I use in this upcoming tournament, and what should I do to improve it?

[mu11etboyz93]

There all bad. I am definitely NOT saying that so i dont have to face them. :D

[zkraut]

Your just scared... And quit cluttering up my thread!

[mu11etboyz93]

I will never not clutter!!!!!!

[zkraut]

... Ok lets get back to topic...

[Dr.Cornelius]

Most matchups come down to rock-paper-scissors, especially in 100 points. It is nearly impossible to create an army that is strong against all possible threats. For example, an army with enough anti-tank assets to take out an armor 7 tank will probably be overrun by an all infantry army. They key is to determine which armies you expect to face then design an army that has reasonably good matchups.

Here's a hint: I think the Veteran Tiger is far and away the strongest piece for the points. VT packs enough punch to take out heavy armor (KV-1, Croc, Tiger) has a decent attack against infantry, enough armor to take on medium tanks and most importantly is immune to infantry close assault.

I also think that the only army that has a decent matchup against a VT is another VT, so the key decision is what to do with the remaining 35 points.

Basic Options:

Vet Tiger & Cubs I
65 Veteran Tiger
20 Hetzer
15 StuG III

Vet Tiger & Cubs II
65 Veteran Tiger
18 Elite Panzer IV D
17 Marder II

In my experience there is only one cost effective unit that has a significant impact on the Vet Tiger: the Wehrmacht Expert Sniper. Headshot is devastating against expensive tanks, so definitely take at least one if you expect to face another VT. And take a BMW/Grizzled Veteran combo to hunt opposing snipers.

Headshot VT
65 Veteran Tiger
11 WE Sniper
10 BMW x2
08 Grizzled Hero
06 Minefield x3

Dual Headshot (optimized for the VT mirror-match)
65 Veteran Tiger
22 WE Sniper x2
05 BMW
08 Grizzled Hero

[zkraut]

Ok, thanks alot, I think I can use the Vet Tiger build I have. In fact I'd like to use all those builds, depending on the occasion.

[tragicmishap]

Well, I've considered army 1 before. It's pretty good, but not the best IMO. Army 2 and 3 are really interesting. I'll have to think about those more. I've never really considered putting a Brummbar in with El Pz IVs for some reason, much less both with a Stuka. Sorry, my analysis was a bit lacking. I'll get back to it.

[zkraut]

Ooops, I just now noticed that army one is the same army as the one in the Axis and allies the tournament. Sorry. Well I can only get a maximum of 4 panzergrenadiers till tragic comes down here. So I will most likely use army one. With army 2 coming in second if I feel the urge to be a panzerleader :D .

[Dr.Cornelius]

Armies 2 & 3 have little chance against an armor 6+ tank. If your opponent fields a well supported Tiger, Croc or even a KV-1 it is a near auto-loss.

[tragicmishap]

Doc, roll 10 dice three times at a +1. I just did and got 7, 8 and 5 successes. I believe that's enough to damage a def 7 tank and kill a def 6, including a KV-1. And your heavy tank only gets to kill one El Pz IV per turn. Do you really think it could last 3 turns? Keep in mind that Ruthless Close Assaults will be there at least by the second turn if played correctly.

[Dr.Cornelius]

Sure - the Elite Panzer IV threatens the Tiger at close range, but why would the Tiger player let the Elite Panzer IV get to close range?

In army 2 & 3 only a few units threaten the Tiger. The Tiger player can concentrate his entire force to eliminate the threat. No doubt an unsupported Tiger is easy meat for the above armies, but the Tiger's supporting Hetzer, EPzIV, StuG, Sniper, BMW, etc have an excellent chance to neutralize the opposing threat in the six turns before the Tiger is obliged to close on the objective. I just don't see anyone beating a Vet Tiger or other well supported heavy tank without a real AT threat or two, and / or at least two WE Snipers.

[zkraut]

Well, if the player is has the elite panzer IVs away from your tiger, tucked into the city away from the tiger's line of sight, They can sit and wait for your tiger to come then. Also the Panzergrenadiers can demolish whatever back up the tiger has with their close assaults. Stukas can dive bomb your tiger from the rear, with 10 dice. We arent completely helpless.

[Arontje]

What about:

Veteran Tiger
10 Mauser Kar
1 Panzerfaust.

I think it has fair chance.

[Dr.Cornelius]

OK - here are the numbers on Stuka vs Vet Tiger:

Probability Stuka disrupts VT: 38%
Probability Stuka damages VT: 5%

Probability VT disrupts Stuka: 50%
Probability VT destroys Stuka: 23%

It gets even better if the VT's supporting Elite PzIV gets a shot at the Stuka too.

The big problem with the Stuka is 21 wasted points against the parabomb, hero swarm or other all-infantry army.

As to opposing tanks hiding from the VT for six turns - Yes, it is possible on the Urban Combat map. It is well known that UC is not favorable for the Tiger, but it is very strong on Tiger Heaven.

On any other map opposing tanks can hide from the VT, but not from its supporting tanks and other pieces at the same time. A decent Tiger army will be backed up by 1-2 light tanks and / or BMW, Grizzled Vet, WE Sniper, etc. You can hide from the Tiger, but not the entire army.

[Richter von Manthofen]

I am thinking to field the Vet Tiger + Brummbär thats 87 points add a sniper and maybe a Fortress defender for sport...

Or HSF for init and Vet Infantryman + 2 barbies
Or Vet Infantry + Grizzly


Or VetTiger + 2 Snipers + VEt inf + Grizzly

[Dr.Cornelius]

Richter - I don't think a Brummbär adds much value to a Veteran Tiger build. The VT is all but immune to close assault and is only vulnerable to specialized infantry like Panzerfaust, Bazooka, AT Guns and especially the WE Sniper. Would much rather see units that can deal with the real threats like Snipers and opposing Vet Tigers and tank hunters like the Hetzer.

Why no BMW? The bike is nimble enough to threaten Snipers and is great for spawning Grizzled Veterans (or Honor Bound Heroes). As a bonus, the BMW is technically infantry so it can enter a vehicle's hex without being subject to defensive fire. Once in the hex, Close Assault 6 is deadly against light tanks like the Elite Pz IV, StuG, Hetzer, Stuart and T-70; and is even a threat to the Sherman.

ps - what's a barbie?

[Richter von Manthofen]

Snicker!

Barbie=barbed wire (because its so shiny)

I won't ne in danger to face another Vet Tiger its strictly Allies against Axis.

BMW is an option, but with two headshot snipers I think I won't need one. Though I might add one instead a sniper and add two Mausers or another 6 Point unit...

I want to use the Wehrmacht Veteran Infantry and the Grizzled Veteran.

[buddha_mcleod]

I like ur builds, they are good basic builds. They are not specialized at taking out anything in specific, but are good general builds. I even like the one with the stuka, and i don't have any planes.

the vet tiger is not invincible, just point for point potent. i have killed vet tigers with crom's.

[zkraut]

I will probably use army 1 and 2. It depends on the mood. That way, I can use all the new stuff I ordered :D .

[a&a rocks]

I like My russian army, i think it works good

BM-13 Katyusha Rocket Laucher x1
KV-1 x1
Fanatical sniper x1
Red army forward observer x1
82mmPM-37 MOrtar x1
Cossack calvarymenx1
cossack captian x1
mossin-Nagant 1891/30 x3
PPSh-41 SMG x2

it works well for me it has won me 2 games with a record of 2-0

[zkraut]

That looks pretty solid, but i'm in need of tips for my armies. Lol

[tragicmishap]

Sure - the Elite Panzer IV threatens the Tiger at close range, but why would the Tiger player let the Elite Panzer IV get to close range?

The Tiger play wouldn't have to let the El Pz IVs close. But if all the Tiger's infantry support get killed, the Tiger would have to go contest the objective, so...

[Dr.Cornelius]

The Tiger play wouldn't have to let the El Pz IVs close. But if all the Tiger's infantry support get killed, the Tiger would have to go contest the objective, so...Who said a Tiger needs infantry support to win? Hetzer and Stug III fill up the remaining 35 points just fine.

Now the opposing tanks may be able to use cover to avoid LOS to the Tiger, but it is very difficult to play hide and seek against all three tanks. All the Hetzer & StuG have to accomplish is eliminate the threat to the Tiger by damaging two enemy tanks - not difficult.

The Tiger's support pieces should be strong against threats to the Tiger, and since regular infantry is no threat I don't see any reason to field any infantry with the Tiger, other than a few specialists:

WE Sniper to hunt other Tigers.

BMW to hunt WE Sniper and light tanks (like the EPzIV)

Grizzled Veteran or Honor Bound Hero because heroes are amazingly tough and can turn the tide of battle by themselves with some luck.

Something like this:
65 Vet Tiger
22 WE Sniper x2
08 Grizzled Veteran
05 BMW
100 points

[a&a rocks]

i think my russian army could beat u guyses german armies, it can swarm the objective and, with few casualties take out your tiger i took one out last game using 2 barages from my then in the 2nd game i took out a king tiger with a flanking close range shot from my KV1

[OE_]

Sorry, doc. The Honor-Bound Hero can not pop out of a BMW. He has to appear in the same hex as a Japanese Soldier...

Would've been nice though :)