Let's fix the HB problem by a newby

[the Elf of the Orient]

Hello all,

I'm a newby (or not, actually, as I've not played the revised A&A even once). I concern the HB problem in SRB. I've read (just skimming) the threads, but...

When fixing the problem, there are two questions I keep thinking about:
1. Is that really the simplest way?
2. Is that agreeing the principles using by AH, that my solution can have at least a small chance that AH would use it when/if a 2nd edition will be published (yes. I'm crazy.)?

I know I'm really lazy that I don't do the math so much and can't read word by word all the stuff in the forum. And I say again I'm just a newby and giving a suggestion:

A. If SBR with HBs ruins the game, just eliminate the two-dice rules for HBs in SBR. That is, HB still rolls 2 dice when attacking in other battles. But in SBR, it still rolls one die. It seems the original SBR rule is already the maximum. And it doesn't make HB useless. Two dice in normal battles is HEAVY enough, especially when comparing with other techs.

B. If SBR itself is too strong still, just eliminate this rule.

From the columns before the release of the new game, I felt that the designers are trying to make the game simple enough for people to learn it. And when they REVISED, they like to make single-statement changes. Say, from the rule book, just change "They roll two dice each in an attack or strategic bombing raid, but still only a single die on defense"(page 9 in the rulebook) to "They roll two dice each in an attack, but still only a single die in SBR or on defense" would be in their style. Agree?

I'm sorry if similar ideas has been posted. And I want to see those mathematical criticisms so that I can learn more. Thanks.

Jonni

[DocD]

Hey Elf, docd here. I would say you shouldn't believe everything you read on the forum. The statement that HB's are overpowered is just somebody's opinion. Not to say that is a bad thing. Heck, this next statement is an opinion...I don't think HB's are that powerful. They cost alot and should put some fear in the enemy. You should try a few games using them if you could and tell us what you think then.
Also, your fix is alittle atypical. I mean most buy bombers for SBR not combat. Just my opinion. ;)

[Zombie]

Good points, but both are wrong. HB is broken in normal attacks just as much as it's broken in SBR, and SBR isn't broken without HB. Still, thank you for your input.

[Babu]

Disagree. HB's in normal combat don't seem broken at all.

[Zombie]

It's definitely broken. The only reason you don't see it now is because everyone uses HB for SBR. Fix SBR only and you'll see on your first game how broken a two dice attack is for bombers.

[Enigma]

I disagree too. Why is 2d6 on attacks so broken? I understand that it would be powerful, probably the most powerful tech, but it wouldn't break the game like with the SBR. Is attacking with lots of HB a viable, game-breaking strategy like the current SBR? I don't see it.

[the Elf of the Orient]

Not broken!!!

The reason it's broken in SBR is that Germany can't do anything. Originally USA should not take part in the mainland so easily and effectively. But HB in SBR helps USA too much.

HB in attacks is strong. But USA's HBs without land units can't attack the mainland so much. And the Axis can use HB too (as now tech is systematic, everyone can get HB).

Agree?

Jonni

[Enigma]

I agree. For US attacking with HB to make a huge difference, they need infantry and such or their bombers will die. At least there's a counter for that strategy, while there's none right now for SBR. I don't think it's broken.

[Zombie]

It's not broken in the sense that you can't do anything against it, but it's broken in the sense that it's overpowered and you'd be stupid to do without it. Tech should never be an automatic buy.

[Babu]

How is a heavy bomber (8 attack pts, 1 defense pt) that can absorb only one hit & costs 15 IPC's overpowered compared to a stack of three armor that costs the same and has 9 attack and defense, and can absorb three hits? Or even an inf / arty mix which has 8 atk / 8 def & 4 hits for 14 IPCs?

Yea the bombers have longer range but that's reasonable, it doesn't make them all-powerful.

[Zombie]

The bombers have a better range, can attack both land and sea, and don't sit on the newly conquered territory waiting to be destroyed.

If we assume that a normal bomber is a decent unit (certainly not the best, but it doesn't totally suck either), then a HB that can attack twice as hard is really too good. How many hits you can take and what defense value you have doesn't matter when talking about bombers, since they should never be chosen as casualties and should never be on the defensive either. Therefore, a 2D6 HB is pretty much twice as good as a normal bomber.

That's way too high an increase. Compare that with super subs and jet fighters that only get one stat increased by 1 and it's easy to see there's a problem here.

[DocD]

Hello? Has anyone ever tried purchasing HBs...I mean investing in HBs? They don't come cheap and the viable strategy to beat an oppenent investing in them is not to waste time by just watching them do it.
You have got to hit him hard or his ally or something fast. I believe people who feel HBs are overpowered have never tried purchasing them or just sits and observes his opponent on his turn. If the US is investing heavily in HB's Russia should go down in turn 4 or 5.

If my strategy for defeating the big bad HB's is wrong, why don't you ever hear of people complaining that the only thing Germany does is buy HBs and bomb them to death.
You don't hear that because Germany knows that it can't waste 2 or 3 turns waiting for HBs to come online.

[Babu]

>If we assume that a normal bomber is a decent unit

If you assume this, your thinking has already gone astray. Normal bombers have only .266 attack per IPC (4/15), below that of even infantry at .333 per IPC.

HB's, at .533, are still below armor at .6 and mixed inf/art at .571. This doesn't even factor in the cost of researching HB, or AA fire which reduces their offensive effectiveness even more. HB's are clearly not overpowered.

Defensive ability should indeed be weighed when buying units. Spending 15 IPCs for a unit which can't defend is a big deal.

[the Elf of the Orient]

Originally posted by Zombie:
Germany is on the mainland, while the USA are two turns away by transports. That changes everything.Yes. Thanks. So USA's HBs can only SBR the Axis or attack sea units (if with enough fighters or sea units).

And yes again for "Germany is on the mainland". It has land units. That means at some suitable time, Germany can get HBs. And Germany's HBs could also attack both land and sea. If you like, Japan may do so too. (I think Japan has really better conditions than USSR to get HBs).

Agree?

Addy

[Zombie]

You can't compare land and air units. It's often better to use fighters than tanks for offense even though they cost twice as much per point of attack. Why? Because fighters don't die on the next turn after you took the country.

If you want to compare HB with something other than normal bombers, then the only possible comparison is with fighters :

3 jet fighters vs 2 heavy bombers (30 IPCs each)
9 attack vs 16 attack
15 defense vs 3 defense
4 range vs 6 range
3 hits vs 2 hits

Since planes always retreat out of trouble after combat and rarely die except through AA gun fire, the number of hits and the defense value have minimal importance while the attack value is by far the most important factor. The extra range is a nice bonus.

If i started with jet power and heavy bombers, you can be sure that all the planes i'd buy would be bombers. Jet fighters just don't cut it compared to heavy bombers. That's a fact.

[Zombie]

Germany is on the mainland, while the USA are two turns away by transports. That changes everything.

[DocD]

Originally posted by Zombie:
Germany is on the mainland, while the USA are two turns away by transports. That changes everything.Wrong! It really doesn't.
My point is is that if HBs were truly broken, then any country could develop HBs in turn one and win the game in turn three. HBs are not some holy grail that once attained is an instance game winner.
Again I say the US strategy of using HBs against Germany can easily be countered by Japan pressuring the US and Russia. If the US is busy buying bombers, where do they find the money to build an effective Pacific fleet?
Those bombers make for awful destroyers and transports in my book.

[ May 12, 2004, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: DocD ]

[Zombie]

Whatever Japan does, building a Pacific fleet is a mistake for the US, unless going Japan first. Better to let them come, waste turns of transports by sending men towards America (which means fewer men in Asia), and beat the hell out of their invasion force with inf + HB.

Your argument about "if a tech is broken, then it's broken for everyone" is also completely wrong. It would make sense in a game where all sides have the same starting position, but this is no such game. Something can certainly be broken for one side and useless for the other. The USA have the best use for heavy bombers, and bombers in general. Make HB worth getting for any other nation and you've automatically made it overpowered for the USA. Heck, right now, it's not even worth getting for anyone else and it's still overpowered for the USA.

[DocD]

Originally posted by Zombie:
Whatever Japan does, building a Pacific fleet is a mistake for the US, unless going Japan first. Better to let them come, waste turns of transports by sending men towards America (which means fewer men in Asia), and beat the hell out of their invasion force with inf + HB.

Your argument about "if a tech is broken, then it's broken for everyone" is also completely wrong. It would make sense in a game where all sides have the same starting position, but this is no such game. Something can certainly be broken for one side and useless for the other. The USA have the best use for heavy bombers, and bombers in general. Make HB worth getting for any other nation and you've automatically made it overpowered for the USA. Heck, right now, it's not even worth getting for anyone else and it's still overpowered for the USA.If only one nation can use them effectively, than they are not broken. Strategies just need to be fleshed out to deafeat them.
Why will the Japanese waste money and time on trying to invade the US.
The Imperial Fleet would be used to take out Australia and India and threaten Pearl Harbor. With the US not threatening them, the Japanese navy wouldn't need reinforcements and can float on pennies.
Of course the Japanese should invade Russia, and again with no Americans threatening them or their islands, that should be an easy task.

[Zombie]

Maybe it's easy but Japan can't do it before Germany falls first. There's just no good counter to the current heavy bombers. Without tech, the game is pretty even. With the HB tech for the USA, it's not even a close contest. That's called broken.

Of course, if you like to spend 100 IPCs on building a Pacific USA fleet to force Japan into spending 20 IPCs to protect their own, maybe you don't understand the proper way to play USA and it's pointless trying to show you that HB for USA is broken.

[the Elf of the Orient]

Hey Zombie,

Actually have you ever tried using bombers (playing USA) to attack Germany but not SBR? How can you fight without land units?

For example, if you use a HB to attack 3 tanks, even if you give two hits in the first cycle, your opponent tanks always roll triple "6s" to let you survive?

I wonder if this "All American Bomber Kamikaze" can break the game. But if your answer is "yes", I respect.

Addy

[ May 13, 2004, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: the Elf of the Orient ]

[DocD]

Originally posted by Zombie:
Maybe it's easy but Japan can't do it before Germany falls first. There's just no good counter to the current heavy bombers. Without tech, the game is pretty even. With the HB tech for the USA, it's not even a close contest. That's called broken.

Of course, if you like to spend 100 IPCs on building a Pacific USA fleet to force Japan into spending 20 IPCs to protect their own, maybe you don't understand the proper way to play USA and it's pointless trying to show you that HB for USA is broken.Japan can't take out Russia before Germany falls??!! Who are you playing with, the Munchkins?
Russia is no match for Japan on the Asian mainland, even with the Nonagression treaty.

And how soon do those US bombers start bombing Germany into submission? Turn one?
Sorry, but it takes at least three turns before the US could seriously do damage with them. What is Germany doing with it's money in the mean time? Saving it for a rainy day?
By turn 3, Japan is well on its way to Moscow and the Allies (under your HB Strategy) are in no way ready to launch a DDay against Germany.

[Zombie]

Originally posted by the Elf of the Orient:
Hey Zombie,

Actually have you ever tried using bombers (playing USA) to attack Germany but not SBR? How can you fight without land units?

For example, if you use a HB to attack 3 tanks, even if you give two hits in the first cycle, your opponent tanks always roll triple "6s" to let you survive?

I wonder if this "All American Bomber Kamikaze" can break the game. But if your answer is "yes", I respect.

AddyThe point is to buy nothing but HB and inf. Attack in France, Germany or Italy every turn. The Germans can't leave only 1 inf in one of those to minimize losses, because then they'd find tons of UK + USA inf on that country, plus a couple of Russian fighters. They have to keep enough troops there to at least fend off UK, but there's no way they can defend against USA's inf + HB. The troops lost by the Germans every turn will be too much and eventually they will have little left on the continent and will be crushed.

[the Elf of the Orient]

"To buy nothing buy HBs and infantries"? How about transports, protection for transports, research for HBs... and when will they arrive? They ride on the HBs?

[Zombie]

Originally posted by DocD:
And how soon do those US bombers start bombing Germany into submission? Turn one?
Sorry, but it takes at least three turns before the US could seriously do damage with them. What is Germany doing with it's money in the mean time? Saving it for a rainy day?
By turn 3, Japan is well on its way to Moscow and the Allies (under your HB Strategy) are in no way ready to launch a DDay against Germany.By turn 3, Germany starts getting hit heavy (3 HB, average a little over 17 IPC loss). By turn 5, Russia gets to spend more money then Germany. Germany can't take Moscow before that happens, and by then they need to start backing off. Japan can't get to Moscow in force before many turns, because it takes time to build troops, drop them on the continent, and advance them, not to mention that there are annoying troops in the way (the original UK, USA and Russian troops, plus a few extra Russians sent East every now and then). Meanwhile, the UK reinforces Russia with inf every turn.

It takes less time for HB to work than it does for either Germany or Japan to seriously harrass Moscow. Heck, with the now wider Atlantic and still very wide Pacific, it takes less time for HB to work then it does to harass Japan or do the shuck. HB is actually the fastest way for USA to get into the game!

[the Elf of the Orient]

Huh? "3 HB, average a little over 17 IPC loss"? What are we discussing? We are talking about HBs attacking, not SBR, aren't we?

[Zombie]

Originally posted by the Elf of the Orient:
"To buy nothing buy HBs and infantries"? How about transports, protection for transports, research for HBs... and when will they arrive? They ride on the HBs?No need for transports, just use the original ones. Maybe buy 1 or 2 max. All you need is about 2 to 6 inf to take the hits in round 1 of combat and the HBs will make sure there is no round 2. The point is not to take the territory with a huge force in order to keep it, but rather to take it every turn so that you get the IPCs, Germany must counterattack, and everytime you land, lots of German inf get killed.

As for protection for the transports, you won't need much. With all those HB flying around, there won't be a German navy to worry about (try sending HBs plus a couple transports in a huge navy, you'll see what happens). The only thing to worry about will be the Luftwaffe and a UK AC should be enough to keep them away.

Besides, until this gets set up properly, it's not like your HBs are sitting there doing nothing. They could be of great help to whatever land units you have in Asia, for instance. They can also attack ships very efficiently.

[Zombie]

Originally posted by the Elf of the Orient:
Huh? "3 HB, average a little over 17 IPC loss"? What are we discussing? We are talking about HBs attacking, not SBR, aren't we?I wasn't talking to you.

[the Elf of the Orient]

Sorry... so...

Huh? "3 HB, average a little over 17 IPC loss"? What are YOU discussing? YOU are talking about HBs attacking, not SBR, aren't YOU?

[Zombie]

Read the thread. There are 2 separate discussions going on. Do i have to spell it out for you?

[the Elf of the Orient]

Hey DocD,

Do you know that Zombie is talking with you about SBR under this topic? There are too many topics, I can't read all.

Addy

[DocD]

Actually, it's turn 4 before the US hits Germany with an average of 17ipc lost.
Turn 1- invest 30 ipcs in HB tech and succeed; move one bomber to UK.
Turn 2- buy 2 HBs
Turn 3- Move 2 HBs to UK or Africa
Turn 4- Now 3 HBs attack Germany's IC

So realistically, by turn 4 a Japanese IC on the mainland of Asia will be cranking out tanks that are destined for Moscow. Remember Russia will have its hands full fighting off Germany, who only needs to make modest gains.

China and Sinkiang will be steamrolled and flatten by that time too.
For Germany, all it needs to do is keep pressure on Russia (quite easy to do) and harrass the British if they attempt resupply of Russia. Japan will do the rest.
Even, if the US bombers drop Germany's production to Russian levels, Russia won't be around to enjoy it.

[Zombie]

Originally posted by DocD:
Actually, it's turn 4 before the US hits Germany with an average of 17ipc lost.
Turn 1- invest 30 ipcs in HB tech and succeed; move one bomber to UK.
Turn 2- buy 2 HBs
Turn 3- Move 2 HBs to UK or Africa
Turn 4- Now 3 HBs attack Germany's ICWell, that's if you're dumb enough to get the tech on turn 1. You don't need it until turn 3, so why research it sooner? Try this instead:

Turn 1 - buy 2 bombers and 2 dice on tech.
Turn 2 - buy 2 bombers and 2 dice on tech. SBR with 1 (heavy?) bomber.
Turn 3 - buy 2 bombers and 2 dice on tech. SBR with 3 heavy bombers.
Turn 4 - buy 2 bombers. SBR with 5 HBs.
etc.

Germany does get SBRed by 3 HBs on turn 3.

Of course you don't think HB is overpowered. You and your opponent don't know how to use it properly!

[DocD]

Ok, even if that isn't just wishful dice rolling, and I believe it is, the US is still putting it self at a disadvantage by not pressuring Japan.

By turn 3 the US shouldn't be earning enough ipcs to purchase 2 bombers and 2 dice. Germany won't be giving up its African holdings that easy and an aggressive Japanese player should easily take China and Sinkiang by then.
So, no wonder your HBs work like magic. Nobody is trying to stop them.

[Zombie]

How is it wishfull dice rolling? I roll 2 dice per turn and hope to get HB by the time i've rolled 6 dice! If you don't get HB after 6 dice, you're pretty badlucky! Actually, the chances are pretty good that i'll get it after only 2 or 4 and won't have to spend the whole sum.

Not pressuring Japan? Pressuring Japan is a mistake even if you don't go HB! If HB keeps you from making this mistake, then all the better!

The USA do have enough money for 6 dice in 3 turns. They start the game with 42 IPCs. Sinkiang falls so they collect 40. Then China falls and they collect 38. That's assuming the best case scenario for Japan. This gives them 120 IPCs to spend in the first 3 rounds, enough for 2 dice and 2 bombers every turn.

[DocD]

Ok Zombie. I give up.
I still believe that regardless of when the US gets heavy bombers, it is totally realistic that they won't effect Germany's production until Germany's purchase phase in Turn 4. By then, any Axis player with half a brain should have made significant gains against Russia. And once Russia falls (and it will) the Allies will not be in any condition to launch a life saving DDay.

[ May 14, 2004, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: DocD ]

[Zombie]

Does the UK player in your games even send troops in Russia to defend? There's no reason why Russia should fall early. Besides, like i said, this is actually the fastest way for the USA to get into the game. If this isn't fast enough, then nothing is and the Allies are doomed.

[axis_roll]

DocD,
In the one game I did use an HB strat, I didn't always use my bombers for merely SBR's.

With the original navy USA starts with, and a few inf purchases here and there, I was able to be a threat to Western europe and even wiped out a decent stack of germans in karelia using the bombers militarily. Oh yes, also killed the German med fleet too...

So USA HB's can really help slow the Germans down in more than just an SBR fashion.

[DocD]

Originally posted by Zombie:
Does the UK player in your games even send troops in Russia to defend? There's no reason why Russia should fall early. Besides, like i said, this is actually the fastest way for the USA to get into the game. If this isn't fast enough, then nothing is and the Allies are doomed.Twice, I've seen Britian reinforce Russia, and it did give Russia a turn or two more of life, but Moscow still fell, ok.

Now, from what I've also seen, Britian reinforcing Russia heavily does two things...both helping the Axis's chances of winning.

1)If Britian is sending large #'s of troops to Russia, they too have given up the fight in the Pacific. And again this mistake gives Japan an even free-er hand to invade Russia from the east.
And, an aggressive German player will like to see the British Navy off of the coast of Russia, because it just made his job of trying to destroy it alot easier.

2)Also, if Britian is suppling all of their arms to Russia, then they won't have an army ready to invade Western Europe when Moscow falls.

Now, I know what you are going to say..."I don't care what Japan does, and I never send the Allies reinforcements to the Pacific anyway, and Germany is always the easier one with my strategies", but that's not going to change my mind.
Britian and the US must harass, attack, fight, bite Japan in anyway that they can, and the units on the board at turn 1 are not going to be enough.
It's game over, Axis win with 9 VCs buddy.

[ May 15, 2004, 08:53 AM: Message edited by: DocD ]

[DocD]

Originally posted by axis_roll:
DocD,
In the one game I did use an HB strat, I didn't always use my bombers for merely SBR's.

With the original navy USA starts with, and a few inf purchases here and there, I was able to be a threat to Western europe and even wiped out a decent stack of germans in karelia using the bombers militarily. Oh yes, also killed the German med fleet too...

So USA HB's can really help slow the Germans down in more than just an SBR fashion.Hey, docd wasn't talking about Combat. The allies over time will have enough units to do all of the above without spending money on HBs.

[Zombie]

Point 1 is good for the Allies. Again, i must say that spending money on providing Japan a free IC in India is a bad move. If HB keeps you from making this mistake, then all the better.

Point 2 doesn't make sense at all; it's actually the very opposite. The fact that you haven't wasted your time trying to defend Asia and instead have spent your money on building transports and men to help Russia more directly, means that you have everything you need already in place to invade Europe at any time. The transports are there and the defending fleet is there.

[axis_roll]

Originally posted by DocD:
Hey, docd wasn't talking about Combat. The allies over time will have enough units to do all of the above without spending money on HBs.My point is that with the few US units that get to USSR's assistance early, the HB's make them even more effective... to stop the German taking of USSR which you said should happen by round 4....

[DocD]

Originally posted by Zombie:
Point 1 is good for the Allies. Again, i must say that spending money on providing Japan a free IC in India is a bad move. If HB keeps you from making this mistake, then all the better.
I knew you were going to say that, so again I say I disagree. Japan has to be harassed, slowed down, shoot at anyway the Allies can do it. If the IC goes down fighting so be it. One less imperial soldier on his way to Moscow.

Point 2 doesn't make sense at all; it's actually the very opposite. The fact that you haven't wasted your time trying to defend Asia and instead have spent your money on building transports and men to help Russia more directly, means that you have everything you need already in place to invade Europe at any time. The transports are there and the defending fleet is there.
Again, who plays against you? Obviously your opponent likes to lose. Germany would love to see UK's fleet off the shore of Russia. How can the UK keep a fleet like that afloat when they move in range of the Lutwafe and UBoats. And more importantly, the British income is not going to be increasing as the turns progress! Remember you have already abandon their pacific holdings.
Game over. Axis win with 9VCs. Thanks for playing buddy.

[DocD]

Originally posted by axis_roll:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DocD:
Hey, docd wasn't talking about Combat. The allies over time will have enough units to do all of the above without spending money on HBs.My point is that with the few US units that get to USSR's assistance early, the HB's make them even more effective... to stop the German taking of USSR which you said should happen by round 4....</font>[/QUOTE]OK, I see said point. Thank you. (Even though I still don't believe it will stop the fall or Russia.

[Zombie]

Listen, it's quite simple really. There are two ways to win with the Allies and one way to lose. You win by doing KGF or KJF, and you lose by trying to do both. You'll figure that out eventually.

[DocD]

Oh yeah, well it is an even simpler way for the Axis to win. It is called IGNORE Japan and fight Ger before Rus falls. You will figure that out one day.

[Zombie]

That's called KGF and it's the most accepted, best way to ensure an Allied victory. Was in the MB edition and still is.