Heros and Defensive Fire

[Kaufschtick]

From page 23 of the first edition rules:

"If a defensive fire attack scores a number of successes equal to or greater than the targets defense, the target ends its movement in its current hex and it is disrupted immediately."

It does not say that the target of defensive fire must end its move due to being disrupted. It does say that defensive fire results in two effects. 1.) The target ends its move in its current hex, and 2.) it is disrupted immediately.

From this I interpret the rules as follows, Heros hit by defensive fire must still end their move, the subsequent disruption marker they ignore.

Is this how everyone else is doing it or have I missed yet another ruling burried in some obscure thread?

Nowhere on the Hero card or in the booster rules does it say that Heros ignore the first result of defensive fire, just the face up disruption counter. I didn't see this question in the Q&A forum (although I may have missed it), and so have put it to the powers that be there.

[Colonel_Coo]

From page 23 of the first edition rules:

"If a defensive fire attack scores a number of successes equal to or greater than the targets defense, the target ends its movement in its current hex and it is disrupted immediately."

It does not say that the target of defensive fire must end its move due to being disrupted. It does say that defensive fire results in two effects. 1.) The target ends its move in its current hex, and 2.) it is disrupted immediately.

From this I interpret the rules as follows, Heros hit by defensive fire must still end their move, the subsequent disruption marker they ignore.

Is this how everyone else is doing it or have I missed yet another ruling burried in some obscure thread?

Nowhere on the Hero card or in the booster rules does it say that Heros ignore the first result of defensive fire, just the face up disruption counter. I didn't see this question in the Q&A forum (although I may have missed it), and so have put it to the powers that be there.
You've missed the "do as we meant not as we wrote thread".

Go the Q&A page and sort/search for DEfensive fire and Rhino.

[WotC JW]

From page 23 of the first edition rules:

"If a defensive fire attack scores a number of successes equal to or greater than the targets defense, the target ends its movement in its current hex and it is disrupted immediately."

It does not say that the target of defensive fire must end its move due to being disrupted. It does say that defensive fire results in two effects. 1.) The target ends its move in its current hex, and 2.) it is disrupted immediately.

From this I interpret the rules as follows, Heros hit by defensive fire must still end their move, the subsequent disruption marker they ignore.

Is this how everyone else is doing it or have I missed yet another ruling burried in some obscure thread?

Nowhere on the Hero card or in the booster rules does it say that Heros ignore the first result of defensive fire, just the face up disruption counter. I didn't see this question in the Q&A forum (although I may have missed it), and so have put it to the powers that be there.

Page 23 of the newer rulebook reads

"If a defensive fire attack scores a number of successes equal to or greater than the targets defense, the target is disrupted immediately. Place a face-up Disrupted counter on the unit. Disrupted units can't move, so the target's movement is stopped. Face-up Disrupted counters are removed at the start of the next casualty phase, as normal."

[Colonel_Coo]

:) Page 23 of the newer rulebook reads

"If a defensive fire attack scores a number of successes equal to or greater than the targets defense, the target is disrupted immediately. Place a face-up Disrupted counter on the unit. Disrupted units can't move, so the target's movement is stopped. Face-up Disrupted counters are removed at the start of the next casualty phase, as normal."
At least the wording gets changed! :)

[Kaufschtick]

I've been playing with the wrong rulebook, great. Yeah, that's a big ruling. Uncle Joe had it a long time ago and I totally missed it. That's going to put defensive fire into the useless file. Totally changes my view of Heros too.

[RBloom0566]

Page 23 of the newer rulebook reads

"If a defensive fire attack scores a number of successes equal to or greater than the targets defense, the target is disrupted immediately. Place a face-up Disrupted counter on the unit. Disrupted units can't move, so the target's movement is stopped. Face-up Disrupted counters are removed at the start of the next casualty phase, as normal."

*Heavy Sigh*
So when there ~WAS~ a way of containing the Hero--when the rules ~DID~ contain something resembling a true wargame rule--it gets changed to a hunk of Limburger!

[Lotus]

In tournies I understand, but try them in scenarios as special forces units. Ditch the whole 'hero' crap. If special forces can work their way into places undetected, thus not provoking defensive fire, well, that's what you have here. If you play with like-minded people, the builds shouldn't get out of control for what you want.

If you play tournies...God help you.

[Dr.Cornelius]

Defensive Fire not stopping movement is especially significant in two cases:

1. Veteran Rhino, SS-Panther or SS-Pz IV can move freely and contest the objective against infantry if the opposing player has less than seven units. Dancing Around the Objective until turn 10 is a well known exploit and leads to unsatisfying play experiences.

2. Undisruptable Hero combined with Banzai charge. This is the combo that won Gencon.

Aside from the fact that the R&D team already ruled that DF has no effect on movement, can anyone present a coherent argument that AAM is a better, more enjoyable, more interesting game with the current ruling?

But there is hope - several rules/mechanics issues have been cleared up recently and I hope that the R&D team will consider revising the ruling or the DF mechanics during the next rules review.

[Kaufschtick]

Aside from the fact that the R&D team already ruled that DF has no effect on movement, can anyone present a coherent argument that AAM is a better, more enjoyable, more interesting game with the current ruling?

But there is hope - several rules/mechanics issues have been cleared up recently and I hope that the R&D team will consider revising the ruling or the DF mechanics during the next rules review.

Well, I guess I'll just have to play it the way it is and see how things go. I can't imagine why the R&D team would want it that way or how that's a better rule?

At the objective, this rule means you'll need Heros to stand up to Heros. They'll just lay waste to regular infantry at the objective.

I just do not get it. Heros get DF vs regular infantry that they are already stronger than. They have better defense, better attack numbers and better SAs, why do they need this advantage too? That's like two guys gonna shoot it out. One guy has an assault rifle and the other guy has a pellet gun. So by this thinking, the designers have seen fit to issue the guy with the assault rifle full body armor and helmet and blindfolded the pellet gun guy just to seal the deal!

[RBloom0566]

Kauf:

Resign yourself to the oblivion that is venting here.
We both know it's like shouting at the deaf.
*No deaf people are intended to be insulted by the previous comment.*

[Avoll]

Defensive Fire not stopping movement is especially significant in two cases:

1. Veteran Rhino, SS-Panther or SS-Pz IV can move freely and contest the objective against infantry if the opposing player has less than seven units. Dancing Around the Objective until turn 10 is a well known exploit and leads to unsatisfying play experiences.

2. Undisruptable Hero combined with Banzai charge. This is the combo that won Gencon.

Aside from the fact that the R&D team already ruled that DF has no effect on movement, can anyone present a coherent argument that AAM is a better, more enjoyable, more interesting game with the current ruling?

But there is hope - several rules/mechanics issues have been cleared up recently and I hope that the R&D team will consider revising the ruling or the DF mechanics during the next rules review.

2. Undisruptable Hero combined with Banzai charge. This is the combo that won Gencon.
Im sure that came up a few times
but I think more offten then not he Banzai charged tanks with no troops with them
dunno guess Ben could tell ya best

[Cruizin2000]

Right on!! That makes sense to me. The Heros WOULD be stopped with DF but they wouldn't get a Disrupted marker or be treated as Disrupted. Good eye, Kaufschtick!! Have you been talking to Eik? That's something that he would see in the rules.

Heros are like Swiss cheese - lots of holes.

C2000

[Cruizin2000]

I just read Steve's reply - NOTHING stops a Hero except for flamethrowers and death. Good God!! No wonder these bloody Heros walked all over GENCON!!!

New Heros for Set V -
Longhorn Colby, Gouda, Colby Jack, Brie, American, Monterey Jack, and Mozzerlla.

Sorry, there's no new Japanes Hero. Anyone ever heard of Japanes cheese? Besides the armored car? Me neither...

C2000

[Uncle_Joe]

Its not rocket science. I've been saying the same thing since the stupid DF ruling came out ages ago. And its also why I said the Japanese Hero was so much more dominating than the Ami hero that everyone was going ape over. The really fun thing with the HbH is that you have to be adjacent to attack him and once adjacent it is impossible to stop his Banzai (without a BAR/Bren in which case its automatic...woohoo...nothing like 'all or nothing' game mechanics to keep the action interesting!)

The SNLF Fanatics with Banzai were bad enough. Adding in Heroes without ANY way to stop the Banzai/Angriff was just plain stupid. Any amount of playtesting should have caught this because we were seeing it in our FIRST GAME with the Heroes.

You can tell how far the game has fallen when it much more about this combo or that than how to properly employ armor or infantry or support weapons in various situations. It has truly become WW2:The Gathering and thats a damned shame IMO.

[Cruizin2000]

Its not rocket science. I've been saying the same thing since the stupid DF ruling came out ages ago. And its also why I said the Japanese Hero was so much more dominating than the Ami hero that everyone was going ape over. The really fun thing with the HbH is that you have to be adjacent to attack him and once adjacent it is impossible to stop his Banzai (without a BAR/Bren in which case its automatic...woohoo...nothing like 'all or nothing' game mechanics to keep the action interesting!)

The SNLF Fanatics with Banzai were bad enough. Adding in Heroes without ANY way to stop the Banzai/Angriff was just plain stupid. Any amount of playtesting should have caught this because we were seeing it in our FIRST GAME with the Heroes.

You can tell how far the game has fallen when it much more about this combo or that than how to properly employ armor or infantry or support weapons in various situations. It has truly become WW2:The Gathering and thats a damned shame IMO.


Right on!! I noticed that myself BEFORE I played my first game with Heros. What are they thinking? What exactly is involved in their playtesting anyways? The more and more I read about this game and Wizards practices the more I wish that I hadn't of gotten involved in this game. I'm a big WWII buff and and high hopes with this game based on the way the advertised it and my friends chomping at the bit over it. WW2: The Gathering is right!! Or Mage Knight: WWII. Heros remind me of the Amazon Draconum or the Gate Lord. I'm sure that Set V will be on sale in your local grocers dairy section - right next to the cheese and kiddie yogurt.

C2000

[DjChimp]

Wow, I didn't realize that defensive fire is useless against heros. Makes me wonder what else changed in the new rulebook. What a disappointment.

[Uncle_Joe]

Wow, I didn't realize that defensive fire is useless against heros. Makes me wonder what else changed in the new rulebook. What a disappointment.

The number of times I've seen that type of response just reinforces what I posted ages ago as well (and was flamed for). The more people KNOW about the game and the units and the capabilities, the less enjoyable it really is.

For the casual gamer with a small collection and who is using COMMON SENSE for some of the rules, its great little game. However once you've collected a ton of minis (and therefore have access to enough of the 'best' units), have read all of the ways the game is SUPPOSED to be played, and seen how just bad the rules/SAs really are sometimes, the game loses something.

Sure, we can all House Rule this or that but that doesnt excuse the game system from devolving from what started out as a light fun tactical wargame and ended up as just another collectible game where power combos and broken rulings win out over tactical ability and common sense.

Its not a marketing strategy that makes much sense to me (ie, the players who spend more and have more interest in the game soon discover its not that great). I know I for one wont be spending more on the game in the future unless I see a marked improvement in the rules, the minis, and the unit balance. Unfortunately, WotC seems quite content and happy with what they have designed so I doubt anything that I would dub an improvement will be forthcoming.

I'm sure there are others with huge collections who will disagree, but I betcha that number of people isnt as high as it would have been back in May...

[RBloom0566]

I'm sure there are others with huge collections who will disagree, but I betcha that number of people isnt as high as it would have been back in May...

670 pieces and still sorely disappointed in WotC/AH for serving us turd on a stick; pre-painted plastic mini turd, but turd nonetheless.

The name Avalon Hill has never been so soiled. Were I an employee, I'd be ashamed.

[Kaufschtick]

I just read Steve's reply - NOTHING stops a Hero except for flamethrowers and death. Good God!! No wonder these bloody Heros walked all over GENCON!!!

New Heros for Set V -
Longhorn Colby, Gouda, Colby Jack, Brie, American, Monterey Jack, and Mozzerlla.

Sorry, there's no new Japanes Hero. Anyone ever heard of Japanes cheese? Besides the armored car? Me neither...

C2000

LOL!!! :D :D LOL!!!

[J.L.Robert]

New Heros for Set V -
Longhorn Colby, Gouda, Colby Jack, Brie, American, Monterey Jack, and Mozzerlla.

Sorry, there's no new Japanes Hero. Anyone ever heard of Japanes cheese? Besides the armored car? Me neither...



How about these?

Soviet (Russian) Lappi
English Stilton
American Processed
German Tilsit
Japanese Sakura (yes, there is a Japanese cheese!)

[Kaufschtick]

Its not rocket science. I've been saying the same thing since the stupid DF ruling came out ages ago.

Uncle Joe, I totally missed the point you were obviously onto ages ago about this ruling...oh brother...what a doosey. Why didn't you smack me a good one back then, you know I'm a little slow on theses things! :D