Watch out, it's Fido...........

[Demolitiondude]

The dog mine! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tank_dog)

[horacus]

Nice. bum doggie.

[zkraut]

I would always play the russians if they made those!!!

BTW, your not the only Mechwarrior on here, I've played that game for a year.

[Sturmgrenadier]

Ya ever thinking about moral? This is brutal and bloody idea, pure sovet. I cant se anything "nice"in this. Its just evil, in really brutal and painfull form. What next? Civilinns used on the front of ya units to get "cover"? I really hope units like this never going to se day light.
Beside, i dont think soviets in AAm really need more anit-tank punch. My 2 cents.

[Taisho_Alex]

War was "evil" - whats the matter with portraying the units that were actually there?

The soldiers might be humans, but they were slaughtered just as mercilessly.

Whether the soviets need more AT punch - thats another discussion entirely.

[Sturmgrenadier]

They don’t said ya that is food waiting for ya under this tank, they don’t “betray” ya. Ya got gun in ya hand, ya know what’s going on. And russians don’t need anything like this. New plane, some good infantry maybe, but nothing like this.

[Texas_Archer]

hey, i have also been playing Mechwarrior since 2003. GO Republic & Highlanders

[BigGuido]

I dont know whether to laugh or cry over this one

Mechwarrior player from the beginning

CBT player back to '86

[Hum_35711]

If they're going to have SS units, they might as well have attack dogs. Common.

[Der Leiter]

Well lets not forget how the Russians used penal brigades to clear minefields or use up enemy ammo.

hey, i have also been playing Mechwarrior since 2003. GO Republic & Highlanders

Dragonsfury is far superior ;)

[Lancimus_Prime]

Make this unit asap.

[zkraut]

Nuh uh! Spirit cats and Dragons Fury all the way!

This Dog mine will have like CA 20.

[Hum_35711]

no way, we need dogs that just maul people. No attack values, but instead just has SA hand-to-hand 10, and maybe determined charge, or something like that. 1-2 points.

[mu11etboyz93]

you mean like german shepards?

[Revoltz22]

War was "evil" - whats the matter with portraying the units that were actually there?

The soldiers might be humans, but they were slaughtered just as mercilessly.

Whether the soviets need more AT punch - thats another discussion entirely.
Someone always points out it's a sick idea, and someone always tries to assert that all war is evil so the opinion of Person-A is null and void. I'm more disturbed by the fact that people are finding hilarity in the act rather than the act itself. I wonder if these same people would go to a war memorial and laugh at the tombstones of fallen soldiers.

Oh well, to each his own. That's the beauty of the internet.

[zkraut]

Dog mines dude, it's one of the soviet's last ditch efforts... Dogs are no equal to humans. When a dog blows up, it takes the place of a human blowing up. The mine idea was a pretty good one, it took out over 300 tanks which could have ended human lives.

[horacus]

hey, i have also been playing Mechwarrior since 2003. GO Republic & Highlanders


Republic all the way sir :D

[Revoltz22]

Dog mines dude, it's one of the soviet's last ditch efforts... Dogs are no equal to humans. When a dog blows up, it takes the place of a human blowing up.
A shell accomplishes the same thing without killing a starved animal. But, again, to each his own.

[zkraut]

You got a point, but it costs more than a starved animal.

[tragicmishap]

Not to mention making whoever is firing the shell vulnerable.

[zkraut]

The dog mines would be fun to play against the sherman swarm. I can imagine the player's face if I only have dogs with like a CA of 10-20.

[RBloom0566]

Dog mines dude, it's one of the soviet's last ditch efforts... Dogs are no equal to humans. When a dog blows up, it takes the place of a human blowing up. The mine idea was a pretty good one, it took out over 300 tanks which could have ended human lives.

Correction: "...it took out over 300 tanks which could have ended SOVIET lives."
There is a difference.

[Muenchausen]

With those 300 German tanks, how many Soviet tanks were lost? By the way this thread was done once before. Only last time there was alot more discussion on treating dogs humanely. I guess all the dog lovers quite posting.

[zkraut]

LOL!

Did you just say Soviets arent human!? Anyway, their soviets... they did everything in 42, and who took berlin in 45?

BTW, Wiki said their enemy tanks, im not sure how many were soviet tanks. But that would have been a funny mental picture, the soviets releasing their mine dogs, then they run the other direction, And the soviet it yelling at it. Then a t-34 comes out of the bushes and the dog run towards it.

[Muenchausen]

LOL!

Did you just say Soviets arent human!? Anyway, their soviets... they did everything in 42, and who took berlin in 45?

BTW, Wiki said their enemy tanks, im not sure how many were soviet tanks. But that would have been a funny mental picture, the soviets releasing their mine dogs, then they run the other direction, And the soviet it yelling at it. Then a t-34 comes out of the bushes and the dog run towards it.

Scratches me head and says, HUH? Where did "Soviets aren't human" come from?

[zkraut]

Correction: "...it took out over 300 tanks which could have ended SOVIET lives."
There is a difference.


I said Human lives, he corrected it and said Soviet lives. He could have meant it by Soldier WWII standards, thats why I asked him what he meant.

[Revoltz22]

Actualy the whole mine-dog project was cancelled when it forced the retreat of an entire Soviet tank division. The project was far from the success you make it out to be.

[Muenchausen]

Actualy the whole mine-dog project was cancelled when it forced the retreat of an entire Soviet tank division. The project was far from the success you make it out to be.

Piggy back. I was just about to suggest zkraut read the WIKI article. The last paragraph basicly describes what he was laughing about.

[zkraut]

Yeah, but overall 300 tanks is a lot of tanks! But it still does make sense for it to come out for this set. For the expiremental theme.

[SgtFury]

Believe it or not, I once met a scientist who had developed plans to attach a nuclear bomb to a whale with the idea of training it to swim into a group of soviet ships or a harbor and be detonated. Unfortunately, the whales used in the study proved to be untrainable and the whole idea was dropped.

The scientists name was Iben Browning. He use to work for the US govt doing atomic research. He is better known for a newsletter he published called the Browning Newsletter. You can wikipedia his name, but don't expect to find anything about whales and nukes.

[Sturmgrenadier]

LOL!

Did you just say Soviets arent human!? .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_Massacre

Because of that, the Polish Institute of National Remembrance has decided to open its own investigation[5] [34] [2]. Prosecution team head Leon Kieres said they would try to identify those involved in ordering and carrying out the killings. In addition, on March 22, 2005, the Polish Sejm unanimously passed an act, requesting the Russian archives to be declassified[54]. The Sejm also requested Russia to classify the Katyn massacre as genocide: "On the 65th anniversary of the Katyn murder the Senate pays tribute to the murdered, best sons of the homeland and those who fought for the truth about the murder to come to light, also the Russians who fought for the truth, despite harassment and persecution" - the resolution said. The resolution stressed that the authorities of the Russian Federation "seek to diminish the burden of this crime by refusing to acknowledge it was genocide and refuse to give access to the records of the investigation into the issue, making it difficult to determine the whole truth about the murder and its perpetrators." [55]

Russia and Poland remained divided on the legal qualification of the Katyn crime, with the Poles considering it a case of genocide and demanding further investigations, as well as complete disclosure of Soviet documents, and the Russians rejecting that view and considering the matter closed..
I like dogs, i DONT like soviet. Germans at last confesed their crimes. And Polish POW in german prisons dont get shoted in the head and burien in the forrest.
and who took berlin in 45?
Just coz Eisenhower, commanding the western Allied forces, saw no need to suffer casualties in attacking a city that would be in the Soviet zone of occupation after the war. Eisenhower also wished to avoid 'friendly fire' incidents with the Red Army.

[zkraut]

I know that, but it wasnt exactly easy taking the city. I dislike soviets, but they were still in the allied powers in WWII.

[Sturmgrenadier]

I know that, but it wasnt exactly easy taking the city. I dislike soviets, but they were still in the allied powers in WWII.
It depend how ya se this. Ya remember Ribentrop and Milotow pact? And what happened to Poland September 17th? Don’t forget it. We helped each other kill same enemy but its doesn’t mean we love each other. The biggest mistake allies din in '45 was to not listen to Patton and to not smash this red cannibals (yes, cannibals, they killed many more millions innocent ppls then germans did) . In effect we got cold war and whole nations, whole countries be under red bloody brutal control in 60 yeas. Poland, Czech, half Germany (ok germans deserv some punishment), White Russia, Ukraine, Latvia, Eastland and other countries still trying to get up after this 60 soviet years of disaster. Its not dog who biting that is guilty, its peoples who trained this dog that are guilty.

Beside this year Poles went to Peoples Right Tribunal in Strasbourg against russians in matter of Katyn.

[Grenzewolf]

I believe I weighed in on this before.

First I am a huge animal lover. Animals have never cheated, lied, or stolen from me. (Ok Racoon's and ferrits have but they said it was a permenant barrow) I eat wild game and love to shoot, but I dont squeeze off on Bambi. If me or my family was starving,,,,well. Bang!

In context, we are playing a "Game" that simulates a terrible time of massive human suffering on a world scale. Many games whether fantasy or historical involve some simulated stuggle of this nature. It fasinates us on a deeper level. But we rarely concider what horror it is when a bullet rips through flesh, limbs being rendered from torsos by artillery or the terror of being burned alive in the death throes of a tank. The ghastly wounds, difigurements, agony or slow deaths that linger after the battle are seldom reflected after a game victory. We instead embrace the romance, mental challenges and excitement of battle. This is why young men fight wars and old men send them into battle. "It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it.' Is the quote by Robert E. Lee and used in Artonje signature that we should all be familiar with.

Thus it is concidering the above as a humanitarian I can reconcile the reprisentation of Mine dogs in this "GAME". Every role of the dice simulates the death or disfigurement of a human being, but in the context of a game we accept it. If that is the case then we can accept plastic dog figures being pushed along hexes twords plastic tanks. One would be hypicritical to field a commisar, Kamikazi a BMW or press infantry into a well defended objectives knowing they are cannon fodder but be offended by Mine Dogs. I agree it was a rotten thing. It all was, we are just playing it out for entertainment

The Mine Dogs were used and abused in large numbers (as were many armies of men). They had an impact on battles and planning for both sides and are viable pieces to the game. Much more so then some of the "experimental" or limited units that have been lobbied for.

Yes I would love to see Mine Dogs but they had better have the SA's of a double edged sword as they did in history and be almost as dangerous to the Allies as they are to the Axis. This would definatly make for a very dynamic game and add greatly to our histiorical arsenal.

NOTE: No actual dogs were harmed in the writing of this opinion

[TheJudge]

This is just.....silly. While it actually happened according to that article, that doesn't mean it needs to be in this game and anyone wishing so can go jump in a lake.

The barbarity of it is just disgusting. A total act of desperation by those people. The Germans, SS, etc were no less brutal and when it comes down to it, every country in the war committed war crimes and barbaric acts for a variety of reasons.

Sorry, this is a game, a game that many people of different ages play. Not everyone understands why the Russians starved animals and then trained them to run under a tank and do you think any person under 20 would understand this? hell, they don't even know what record albums are and they would look at Dog Mines the same way they look at Grand Theft Auto, as something fun to play! Yikes......

[Grenzewolf]

=Sorry, this is a game, a game that many people of different ages play. Not everyone understands why the Russians starved animals and then trained them to run under a tank and do you think any person under 20 would understand this? hell, they don't even know what record albums are and they would look at Dog Mines the same way they look at Grand Theft Auto, as something fun to play! Yikes......

So historicaly correct mine dogs (um little plastic mine dogs) will warp the minds of ignorant youth worse than or equivlant to Shooting Cops and beating hookers? riiiight If the destruction of you soliders and tanks is abstract while you play then so is a plastic "Fido". Again, has anyone read the Commisar Ability?

[emmatig]

I've had a couple of these dogs used against me in a 20mm wargame. Very nasty and I didn't enjoy it much. For some reason the thought of an innocent starving dog blowing up is worse than a human who knows what's happening!!!!!

Maybe just me? All real war is really bad after all and we're just playing a game.

Emma

[Muenchausen]

How does a debate on having dog mines in the game morf into "I hate Soviets"?

[cannonfodder]

Anything sent to die is horrible. It may seem that sending a dog to explode crosses a line but in what way is sending a 17 year old who knows nothing (sorry to all the teens on this site but ask your parents, you know nothing) onto the front lines with limited training and an artificial expectation of survival different from doing the same thing with a dog? I agree, using food to train dogs to run under tanks seems atrocious, especially because the dog has no idea what is happening, but would you do it if the invading army was 10 miles from your house and you had been told that they will rape your family and kill them in horrible ways? Would you lie to young adults and tell them the battle is theirs for the taking? I don't think many of us have ever been in that situation. In fact I doubt anyone on this site has had to make a call like this. To any veterans I offer my apology, you are entitled to any opinion you wish, you were there.
I think that it's a wonderful thing that we live in a world were such actions are considered horrible and bordering on sick. I hope that no one ever has to make a decision like this ever again. Of course I also hope for an end to war altogether so I'm an idealist that way.
All i'm saying is, in that place, at that time, that decision made sense to the person who made it. Let's hope that no one is ever put in that position again.

[cannonfodder]

By the way, welcome to the boards Emma. This is the first time I've seen you post.

[mdescalzo]

Not everyone understands why the Russians starved animals and then trained them to run under a tank and do you think any person under 20 would understand this?

...and maybe they should. Historical gaming can go a long way toward educating young people about that. We should stop soft-balling children.

Bombs weren't strapped to dogs because it was funny. Commisars didn't shoot deserters to make people laugh. The Soviets had a very bad job to do. The consequense of failure was something we all would have a hard time getting our minds around. People do desperate things at desperate times. Sadly, too many people in civilized nations have no clue, and refuse to consider, what it is to be that desperate. It changes your perspective quite a bit.

[nlentz88]

One would be hypicritical to field a commisar, Kamikazi a BMW or press infantry into a well defended objectives knowing they are cannon fodder but be offended by Mine Dogs. I agree it was a rotten thing. It all was, we are just playing it out for entertainment

Well said. That's how I see things too. I abhor war while admitting that it may be necessary in some circumstances, e.g. to stop genocide. Nevertheless, I love war games. However, when my friends and I play we sometimes stop ourselves for a moment, take ourselves out of the game, and dwell upon the gravity of violence and the sacrifices made by soldiers of all nations. This usually happens when we end up gaming near the anniversary of a major battle or a holiday such as Memorial Day.

Still, I play the game because it's fun. While I would never dream of commanding real soldiers into battle, I take great delight in ordering my plastic platoons to charge the hill and take out that MG team. And while I love dogs and would never dream of hurting one (much less starving one and strapping an explosive device to its back), I can myself having fun using a few plastic miniatures of mine dogs to take out a German tank.

[Muenchausen]

I can't beleive this thread has ended up where it's at, talking about the moral implications behind using dogs as weapons. My take is this. We have 45 slots for the next release. I would hate to see one of them used for dog mines when all the minor nations need to be fleshed out. In addition the major nations need to have some basic units that should have been provided in the first couple of sets. For example, US MG team, USSR MG team, GE paratroopers, flamthrowers, halftracks and trucks for everybody. That's not including all the AFV's that haven't been released and everything else that I can't think of at the moment. I would hate to see a slot wasted on dig mines. By the way, to make them historically accurate, they would have to be unuseable after 1942. Just my opinion.

[Moderator Keldar]

Due to the emotionally charged moral implications, please keep your comments directed at whether this would be a game component you would like to use.

It's clear that the argument about it's ethical use will have both opinions. Neither one will convince the other of their point of view, so avoid that portion of the discussion on these gaming forums.

This thread will be closed, if the ethics of war continues to be the topic. Also, sweeping comments of dislike about specific nationalities does not have a place here either. Please refrain from adding your personal feelings to the facts. This is a gaming site that happens to produce a war game. This does not necessarily allow for personal political commentary on WWII, and/or its participants.

Muenchausen has done a good job in directing our minds back to whether this should occupy a playing piece slot. Let's try to keep it there.

Thanks.

[Sturmgrenadier]

I can't beleive this thread has ended up where it's at, talking about the moral implications behind using dogs as weapons. My take is this. We have 45 slots for the next release. I would hate to see one of them used for dog mines when all the minor nations need to be fleshed out. In addition the major nations need to have some basic units that should have been provided in the first couple of sets. For example, US MG team, USSR MG team, GE paratroopers, flamthrowers, halftracks and trucks for everybody. That's not including all the AFV's that haven't been released and everything else that I can't think of at the moment. I would hate to see a slot wasted on dig mines. By the way, to make them historically accurate, they would have to be unuseable after 1942. Just my opinion.
/Amen to that... and this thread

[BigGuido]

spirit cats are absorbed, so is the dragons fury, nearly all the original factions are gone

we played a rather large game last night and i let the russian player have some dog mines, it was a blast :))

[357FTG]

This unit would be to unpedictable, on a 5 or a 6 dog destroys enemy tank, on a 3-4 dog runs away on a 1 or 2 dog destroys your own tank.

[Lotus]

Interesting article and thanks for posting it.

That said, no dog bombs for me. Men and machines are good enough.

[357FTG]

Besides, it is no longer politicaly correct to call them dogs, they prefer K-9 Americans.

[Grenzewolf]

Back in the Day I used to play a game called "Space Marines" later Games Workshop renamed it "Epic" and dummied up the rules. Some of you may be familiar with the Mad Boys orks. They were a devastating unit..... but very unperdictable. They could on a particular roll charge and destroy all enemy armor or as one roll indicated. "One particularily morose Mad Boy convinces the others they are all dead. All mad boys collapse to the ground and do nothing until the next roll of a six." There could be a small random action chart as suggested along this line.

I think we could keep it even simpler and perhaps use a scatter die technique to see what way the dog runs when released during the movement phase on a roll of 1-3. On a 4-6 the dog runs twords the intended target. The mine dog would have to travel with a soldier until released or the handler was destroyed. (IE no Soviet in Dogs hex at begining of movement phase) Give a dog Movement of Three. During the Assualt phase the dog runs twords the nearest armored vehicle. If its within Three Hexes.....Boom. I could see some Tanks being chases off the map. Of course any opposing infantry in the area would have a chance at defensive fire. Im thinking this reflects reasonably with historical acounts.

[Grenzewolf]

Oh BTW if anyone is interested in the movie "The Misfit Brigade" (The Kelly's Hero's of the Wehrmacht) The stug crew rescues and adopts a Russian Mine Dog. It saves their butts a couple times behind enemy lines. "Shut that damn dog up!" "Its ok she barks in Russian" hehe. Its not as good as Kelly's Heros but well worth a watch.

[whitewind]

Oh yeah this was a desperate thing to be tried. When I saw the photo in the article lots of emotions hit me... If I were to play such a unit perhaps these stats? Move 2,,, Def 2/2 " mainly because they were small and low to the ground as the article states" no attacks... CA: 10.....SA: Hellish Training.. This animal will run towards the nearest tank. SA: Run Amuck!: on a roll of 1-2 this animal will run towards the nearest Russian Armor.. " mainly because the articles stating they were trained using Russian tanks. As far as this unit ending up in the game, " don't want it to " I don't want it taking up an uncommon slot and Certainly not a Rare... If it ever showed as a common I'd just give up and drag out my Heroscape again.....

[Anubis]

Well why not attack dog units?

[TheJudge]

I suppose that was my point in the end, that having exploding dogs(how unbelievable that actually sounds) in my booster packs instead of more usable units for every nation would really annoy me.

The morality of it all I guess is irrelevant to the game in most respects but I certainly wouldn't want my son laughing when he uses his exploding attack dog to blow up a tank either. Some may be ok with that but that's a story for a different thread on a different website. Too bad.

Let's hope they have the common sense to put tanks, planes, and infantry into the packs that are usable.