Salvo 2: USSR power. [Archive] - Avalon Hill Boards

Der Leiter

09-12-2006, 09:17 PM

Got it now..

Su-152 is pretty nice. It's easily flanked, but not too vulnerable.

The BA-10M isn't too bad for early war games. You can use aggression to zip 4 along the road before attacking... but the attack stats aren't too high, and the defence is low. Seems decent.

(Edit): Also noting that the BA-10M is #7, and the T-35 is #13 so seems the Russians get at least a 7 units.

Dreamsbeard

09-12-2006, 09:20 PM

The su-152 is a damn monster :eek: , and yeah the new SA agression if very cool, those buggers are going to make effective swarm kamikaze. :D

Arontje

09-12-2006, 09:39 PM

Agression will be quite used when going second. Your move your things, then hi assault phase. He cant shoot you cause you arent in LOS.

Then you can move this thing with speed 1 (and gear bonus perhaps) and kill that armour 3 thingy or BMW or Whermacht Expert Sniper or Mortar.

Very nice indeed. Good thing its stats arent that good or else this was a monster.

Very nice to see 2 units in the preview instead of 1.

dictator_wanna_be

09-12-2006, 09:40 PM

could i have a link?

tragicmishap

09-12-2006, 09:57 PM

Wow. Both these units are pretty crazy. The KV-1 was already one of the best units in the game. Now you have basically a really souped up KV-1 without transport. No Cossack Cpt., but jeepers creepers what a tank! The little armored car is interesting because of the new ability and it's also fairly cheap and balanced. Another good swarm option.

Arontje

09-12-2006, 10:02 PM

Number 7 and 12.

That makes at least 6 Russian Units.

Arontje

09-12-2006, 10:03 PM

could i have a link?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=ah/aam/ah20060913c

lubomirvaic

09-12-2006, 10:16 PM

I'm stoked that my Russians finally have a support vehicle. Although the beastie is nice, I don't know if that's what they really needed, although I do like it. Looking forward to another infantry with some range.

Arontje

09-12-2006, 10:30 PM

Although the beastie is nice, I don't know if that's what they really needed

I think that about every plane. It will be true also for many things coming out of this set.

J.L.Robert

09-12-2006, 10:44 PM

Hmmm...the Ba-10 will have a strange synergy with the Crocodile. Go first, and you can barbecue your enemies; go second, and you can get some quality flanking attacks in.

Timmon

09-12-2006, 10:45 PM

Very nice pieces, lot better than I expected out of "Reserves". Both of these were actually produced in fair numbers, and used a lot. So no experimens or prototypes here, which is very very good.

WinterWarCaptain

09-12-2006, 10:55 PM

It is a very rare occasion that we can unreservedly praise units. Now is such an occasion.

The BA-10M is a welcomed unit. Aggression is a powerful SA, especially if you stick to the road and go second. A neat looking vehicle too. Stats and price in order.

The Su-152 is also priced correctly, I think. It surely is a beast. However, I cannot read what the Limited Ammo SA is. Anyone care to let me in?

Arontje

09-12-2006, 10:57 PM

I cannot read what the Limited Ammo SA is. Anyone care to let me in?

He cannot make defensive fire.

Tyree67

09-12-2006, 11:14 PM

take a look at the real thing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SU-152[/URL] The russia's called it Zverboy " beast killer ". :eek:

WinterWarCaptain

09-12-2006, 11:16 PM

He cannot make defensive fire.
Thanks Arontje.

Ubergeek

09-12-2006, 11:29 PM

I have to agree there's much to praise about these two vehicles. The BA-10M is a 1939 powerhouse for 12 points. Plus it can get one or more closer when dealing with any aircraft that bother it. The Anti-armor stats are very good for an early war unit.

The SU-152 is a powerhouse that brings along excellent AI as well but at a cost. It's a nice addition to the Soviet mix but I'd still rather have a KV-1 instead of this beast.

Given there should be 6 Russian units (at least) in this set, we've seen 3 (T-35, SU-152, BA-10M). On a distributor site I read that the IS-3 was also in the set. That leaves 2 more Russian slots. I'm hoping one goes to an aircraft (early war) and either a KV-2 or BT-7.

Tyree67

09-13-2006, 12:35 AM

Must be a new record 2 pages up and no one has whined yet!!!! but seriously they do seem like what the russians need except for a machine gun.

Sturmgrenadier

09-13-2006, 02:43 AM

The russia's called it Zverboy " beast killer ". :eek:

It acctualy mean "animal killer" (Panther, Tiger, Elefant etc) hehe.
Indeed really nice unit for krasnia towarisci, hehe

Muenchausen

09-13-2006, 03:48 AM

That's it, I've seen enough. I'm preordering my five cases today! :D

Lotus

09-13-2006, 04:05 AM

Yup. Planning on getting a case. Since I don't think WoTC shows us their best right off the bat, I have good expectations for the rest of the set. Russia's looking good already w/ 3 units.

polish_horsy

09-13-2006, 04:31 AM

Colonel_Panic

09-13-2006, 04:35 AM

It is a very rare occasion that we can unreservedly praise units. Now is such an occasion.
I agree, and I hope that WotC maybe have learned something from the critics we have thrown at them for the first sets. It's good the Soviets get some more struff, as was pretty thin for them in the past two sets, specially in Set-IV.

This really restores my faith in this game, thanks for bringing real valuable units to the gaming boards, I had some doubts about the Reserves name, but it looks like only a few units will be of the more exprerimental kind.

ANTIBOMBER

09-13-2006, 04:36 AM

Hmmmm.....at least 6 Russian Units....1 tank(T-35)...1 tank destroyer(SU-152)....1 armored car(BA-10)....I am betting on 1 russian aircraft, an MG Team, and a specialty Infantry (Paratrooper or Elite Guards Infantry????)

Anyone Give me Odds?!?!?

Cruizin2000

09-13-2006, 04:39 AM

I like these. More Russian units are great but we still need that MG team. Man, I'm hoping that they fill out the Poles this round. Is it 11/10 yet?

C2000

Der Leiter

09-13-2006, 04:47 AM

Arontje

09-13-2006, 04:52 AM

7 Russian units.. there's the T-35 as well (#13). I'm hopinh at least for an earlier aircraft and MG..

Ah yes. Rightly so. I said 6 cause of the number 7 and 12. But I totally forgot about the T-35.

My apoligies...

Minimum of 7 Russian units.

I do think an elite Russian infantry will come.

mu11etboyz93

09-13-2006, 04:52 AM

im hoping for russian paras cuz they were also guards.

zkraut

09-13-2006, 04:59 AM

Der Leiter

09-13-2006, 05:13 AM

Ah yes. Rightly so. I said 6 cause of the number 7 and 12. But I totally forgot about the T-35.

My apoligies...

Minimum of 7 Russian units.

I do think an elite Russian infantry will come.

Eh, I forgot about it at first too.

They hopefully will, they deserve one. I'm mostly interested in seeing what commanders might be in the set.

Lotus

09-13-2006, 05:15 AM

I expect we have a Yak coming to us...and well overdue. Russian paras would be ok.

Predator666

09-13-2006, 05:23 AM

I could take the SU-152.......I'm just worried about that armored car. I want to know why they put aggression on it and there better be some german units with it. It fits a bit more with germany.

spacepope

09-13-2006, 05:54 AM

I am glad to see the Russians finally getting the attention they need. But, they really do need an AA and MG unit.

Canuck_Captain

09-13-2006, 06:18 AM

The 152 is sick for only 51 pts Cant wait till November now

Galastro

09-13-2006, 07:23 AM

I am glad to see the Russians finally getting the attention they need. But, they really do need an AA and MG unit.

As someone said before (I think) there's at least 6 SU units in this booster, so lets give Avalon a chance :)

cannonfodder

09-13-2006, 07:31 AM

SA: Aggresion. Oh boy. At least it's hasn't got killer rolls to boot. This SA is going to change things pretty dramatically, I think. With the ability to move and attack it's very much like it can Angriff itself, just without the +1 bonus. So now we have the BMW angriff situation again. The difference is that this time it's intentional. It seems, at first glance, that this goes against one of the pillars of this game (that you can always move before you get shot). I guess you still can but it's going to be a lot more complicated to figure out where it will be to safe to sit. Oh well, I'll have to try it before I judge it. I don't play a lot of light armour anyway.
The beast killer is exactly that, a Killer. This thing is going to chew up enemy armour and infantry. 6/6 def, hulking mass, and speed 3. Ouch. This thing and a bunch of cheap inf and the battle will be well and truly joined. Now that I think about it it's been a while since I've played the Russians. Hmmmm.

PatrickWR

09-13-2006, 07:34 AM

I like Aggression as a unique alternative to Strike and Fade.

The SU-152 is the new tank of choice for Allied players.

Grenzewolf

09-13-2006, 07:34 AM

I could take the SU-152.......I'm just worried about that armored car. I want to know why they put aggression on it and there better be some german units with it. It fits a bit more with germany.

I agree, It would fit the russians much better latter in the war not on an early vehicle. Though in defense of the SA, I have numorous pictures of these vehicles destroyed cleary in an offensive posture. Stalin flung many a desperate counter attack at the axis once they got over the intial shock of Barbarossa.

The Good news is if your doing a historical scenario you can use the BA-10M for Finland and Germany. The Fins snatched 20 of them during the Winter War. The Germans captured a slew of 'em. Panzerspahwagen 203(r) was the German designation and they were used often for anti-partisan units and as Staff and MP assets.

Im very happy to see this unit for early war scenarios but I wish there had been some reprisentation of the vehicles pathetic off road performance. It was due to the poor manueveability that production ceased in 42 and units were withdrawn.

Good to see the Russians fleshing out. Soon the Russian hordes will actualy become..well....a horde. I plan on tearing off the turret on a couple and making some GAZ/AAA's if we dont get a truck in this set.

Cant wait for my Case. Aready very excited about this set

boersma8

09-13-2006, 07:44 AM

Very nice pieces, lot better than I expected out of "Reserves". Both of these were actually produced in fair numbers, and used a lot. So no experimens or prototypes here, which is very very good.

Eastern front wasn't merely Eastern front units either, same goes for D-day and Contested skies didn't solely consist of planes and anti-aircraft guns ;) . Therefore it's only logical that reserves should have " regular" units too. BTW if I recall correctly, WoTC even stated this..........

boersma8

09-13-2006, 07:49 AM

Must be a new record 2 pages up and no one has whined yet!!!! but seriously they do seem like what the russians need except for a machine gun.

Nothing to whine about really....( there would have been if they'd costed the beast on 20 points! ;) Seriously, stats seem about right, price seems about right. As long as they stick to doing so, you won't hear me complaining! Personally, I could've done without " power-gamer" pieces..........

Anubis

09-13-2006, 07:51 AM

I like them. Looksl like I'll be playing russians again.

boersma8

09-13-2006, 07:51 AM

Give me the KV-1. That thing is unlikely to ever fire more than one shot at a vehicle in a game. No turret, no defensive fire... 3 Elites would have it for lunch. That baby needs infantry support big time.

Maybe we'll finally be getting Russian ( and American!) MG teams and flamethrowers????

nlentz88

09-13-2006, 07:53 AM

Nice units. Still, I would rather have a basic Russian transport, MG team, and AA gun.

Aggression is an interesting SA. It's basically Strike and Fade in reverse. If you're playing mixed nations, it might be fun to use both Aggression and Strike and Fade in the same army. That way, no matter who goes first....

boersma8

09-13-2006, 07:55 AM

The SU-152 is a monster! You can make builds around this thing! The only bad thing is is the cost. I think they are making things with higher Infantry attacks just to counter 5 defense infantry. I dont play soviets, but I'll get this piece to help my americans anyway!

As far as I know the Americans didn't field these! ;) BTW, if it's idef 5 infantry killers you're looking for, I'd go with the US mortar anytime. You can fire in any direction, field two and have points to spare for the price of this thingy..........

cannonfodder

09-13-2006, 08:02 AM

True, but let's see you kill tanks with a mortar. The SU152 kills everything well.

boersma8

09-13-2006, 08:02 AM

I agree, It would fit the russians much better latter in the war not on an early vehicle. Though in defense of the SA, I have numorous pictures of these vehicles destroyed cleary in an offensive posture. Stalin flung many a desperate counter attack at the axis once they got over the intial shock of Barbarossa.

The Good news is if your doing a historical scenario you can use the BA-10M for Finland and Germany. The Fins snatched 20 of them during the Winter War. The Germans captured a slew of 'em. Panzerspahwagen 203(r) was the German designation and they were used often for anti-partisan units and as Staff and MP assets.

Im very happy to see this unit for early war scenarios but I wish there had been some reprisentation of the vehicles pathetic off road performance. It was due to the poor manueveability that production ceased in 42 and units were withdrawn.

Good to see the Russians fleshing out. Soon the Russian hordes will actualy become..well....a horde. I plan on tearing off the turret on a couple and making some GAZ/AAA's if we dont get a truck in this set.

Cant wait for my Case. Aready very excited about this set

Well, in a way that poor off road performance is there: along a road ( normal max. movement (4) + free road bonus (+ 1) + high gear ( +2) + aggression ( +1) makes for a total possible speed of 8). When moving off road it's only speed 4 at most...........Or did I make some kind of calculation error here??? ( In the preview they seem to give a slightly different example.........Maybe I'd better ask Steve about it.......Well on second thoughts I guess it'd have to be without the + 1 for aggression because this would be all movement and no attack. However, a total speed of 7 is still great!

Joisey

09-13-2006, 08:06 AM

The Su-152 and Ba-10 are solid unit choices to add to the collection. About the best that can be said for the T-35 is that it lives up to the name "reserves".

The stats and SA's for the Su-152 and Ba-10 are good--very good given WotC recent track record, in fact. Nice to see WotC stepping up to the plate and not leaving the HHR Committee a mess to clean up.

Metagame-wise: If the Russians had paratroopers they'd be better to play than the Americans (being able to use alot of American equipment already, plus their own).

The sculpts look fair to good, although there is no way to tell at this point if the scales are consistent or have been botched again.

The paint jobs have been uninspired across the board, barely an inkwash above what you'd get with a Bag'O'Armymen. Better lay in an order for Russian insignia decals, and some paint for camo details, now.

Overall Prognosis for Set V so far: Cautiously Optimistic.

Geobaldi

09-13-2006, 08:23 AM

Well, while we're on the subject of Russian aircraft...

The more likely choices come to the forefront, for early war the Polikarpov I-16 (one of my personal favorites), then the Mig-3/5, Yak 1/3/9, the stop-gap LaGG-3, and finally the Lavochkin La-5/7. All fighters, if you'll notice. By going with the Il-10 first for the Russkys, they gave them their ultimate ground-attack craft first, so in all likelyhood it'll be a fighter next.

Then again, AH has suprised us before, so some unlikely, but still completely possible alternatives might be Tupolev SB-2, Sukhoi Su-2 or Petlyakov Pe-2, but let's not forget the lend-lease program, so that may very well entail a Russian P-40, P-39, Hurricaine, A-20 Havoc, or any one of a number of other foreign built aircraft.

Fighter is most likely, but we'll have to see what comes out in the wash.

Grenzewolf

09-13-2006, 08:24 AM

Well, in a way that poor off road performance is there: along a road ( normal max. movement (4) + free road bonus (+ 1) + high gear ( +2) + aggression ( +1) makes for a total possible speed of 8). When moving off road it's only speed 4 at most...........Or did I make some kind of calculation error here??? ( In the preview they seem to give a slightly different example.........Maybe I'd better ask Steve about it.......Well on second thoughts I guess it'd have to be without the + 1 for aggression because this would be all movement and no attack. However, a total speed of 7 is still great!

50 mph on the road (at some estimates) is hooking along pretty fast for early 40's standards I think the speed is reasonable for on road.

AudieMurphy

09-13-2006, 08:26 AM

I too was happy to see two units previewd instead of one. Thank you Bob!

Wow! Russians are getting some interesting units in this set!
And a lot too! 7 slots minimum is a lot with so many countries involved in the game.

SU-152 will probably see a LOT of gameplay in 150 or 200 pts in allied armies. Even in 100 pts. games, such a powerful unit at a reasonable 51 points, you can still afford to spend more points on support units to protect it's flanks. It can go vs the best infantry AND the best armor.

Speaking of which, give it to Russians to build an armored car that is as good if not better than most light tanks! Compare the BA-10M with other units that cost around 12 points... The 1939 unit could make the 1942 T-70 obsolete.
Cost: same.
Speed: T-70 has 5, but BA-10M is speed 4 PLUS High Gear 2 and Agression 1!
Defense: T-70 is better at 4/3 (only 2/2 for the russian armored car)
AI: 7/6/4 slight advantage for the BA-10M (over the pitiful 5/5/4 of the T-70)
AT: Same at 9/7/6
SA: T-70 only got a bad one ("Undermanned"); BA-10M has High Gear 2 which makes it faster than T-70 on a road AND the new Agression 1 which makes it interesting when you go second.

boersma8

09-13-2006, 08:28 AM

The SU 152 seems a better buy for the allies compared to the Panther for the Germans, You pay two more points, but you get much better anti- infantry stats and a higher rear defense value. You do have fixed howitzer on the other hand and no SS determination.........Price seems fine with me!

In tournament play the BA is too weak to actually hurt defense 5 infantry and/or heavy armour. Then again, it'd be good against the elite panzer IV, but that's a suicide piece anyway..........

boersma8

09-13-2006, 08:32 AM

True, but let's see you kill tanks with a mortar. The SU152 kills everything well.

That's why I said: " if it's ANTI-INFANTRY" you're looking for... ;) You're quite right, though. This seems to be a tournament worthy piece without having to go over the top to make it one! ( crack shot, ignore disruption, triple sixes etc.)

Hum_35711

09-13-2006, 08:56 AM

Two great pieces, now all Russia needs is:

a fighter
an AA gun
a 5 defence infantry
a machine gun
a paratrooper
and a transport truck.

johnnyonthespot

09-13-2006, 10:06 AM

Two great pieces, now all Russia needs is:

a fighter
an AA gun
a 5 defence infantry
a machine gun
a paratrooper
and a transport truck.

Filling in the gaps (hopefully!)
7 - BA-10M (u)
8 - Guards Riflemen (c)
9 - LaGG 3 Fighter (r)
10 - Maxim Machine-Gun Team (u)
11 - Roks-100 Flamethrower (c)
12 - SU-152 (r)
13 - T-35 (r)

johnnyonthespot

09-13-2006, 10:11 AM

Two great pieces, now all Russia needs is:

a fighter
an AA gun
a 5 defence infantry
a machine gun
a paratrooper
and a transport truck.

I kind of doubt we’ll see Soviet AA, paras, and trucks in this set. Why?

AA – Most Allied nations used the Bofors AA guns
Paras – saw limited “drop” action in WWII; probably we’ll get Polish paratroopers before Soviet ones!
Trucks – no other nations have them, and many Soviet tanks already have the transport ability.

johnnyonthespot

09-13-2006, 10:15 AM

I just wanted to add my praise to the list.

The Stats:
The SU-152 is fantastic, and it's the one Soviet unit I was hoping would be in this set! I also like the BA-10M... it should be fun to play with.

The Minis:
The minis look decent.

I don't really mind lazy paint jobs. It's the plastic that bothers me: the sculpts look like they should have had a few hours more put into their design.

Still, I'm pretty happy with this Salvo.

I love the Soviets!

polish_horsy

09-13-2006, 10:30 AM

that SU-152 is going to need a little partner like the B-10 or a lot of infantry help or something. I'm not getting the love for this one. I just can't see what you all think is so great about a 51 point unit that has no defensive fire and no turret. I would rub my hands with glee if my opponent got an SU-152. You wanna take a 51 point unit and fire at 1 little 5-point SS-PG? Fine go right ahead. In fact if you kill 1 SS-PG every turn and I kill your 51 pointer in the process who wins the game? I can drive a Panzer IV F right up to the rear of this thing and it won't get to return fire. There are just so many ways to defeat a vehicle with no turret. I would wager that in many games this thing never fires more than 1 shot at a vehicle. So go ahead and destroy my Eilte... the other 2 will flank you and wipe you out on the next turn. So it is going to take a lot of support to keep this piece from loosing the game for mother Russia. It can be done of course. But no turret and no defensive fire mean this thing better be real careful.

All in all I think the B-10 is the game changer of the 2. The SU-152 is interesting though and I'm glad it is here.

Richter von Manthofen

09-13-2006, 11:29 AM

Just wabt to jump in.

I like both units they just seem right - a seldom occurence with AAM previews lastly.
No one complains - not even me :D

Both will see much use with my russians...

Hum_35711

09-13-2006, 11:42 AM

So go ahead and destroy my Eilte... the other 2 will flank you and wipe you out on the next turn. So it is going to take a lot of support to keep this piece from loosing the game for mother Russia. It can be done of course. But no turret and no defensive fire mean this thing better be real careful.

Never underestimate the awesome power of 'hulking mass'

polish_horsy

09-13-2006, 11:57 AM

but if you have no turret hulking mass just means you sit there one more turn twiddling your thumbs. that is if you are playing someone with common sense. As long as the thing is disrupted it is almost powerless to do anything. And even before it is disrupted it can be easily avoided. And even if I give it a shot at a Tiger (or SS_Panther) it is unlikely to inflict any disruption back.

Halcyon

09-13-2006, 03:08 PM

You're assuming that the player who fields it is going to completely ignore all possabilities of the vehicle being flanked. As mentioned, this isn't something you can just splash into an army.

At 51 points, you'll really have to build something around it. It's a centerpiece that you build around, and considering how cheap and often effective Russian infantry can be, I personally don't think it'll be that hard. Your Panzer IV moving in to flank my SU-152, is taking defensive fire as well as close assault by the infantry shield I've put around it, and your SSPGs have to face fire just to get to the SU-152, while it is shooting at them all the while.

With Bombardment, there is no safe avenue of approach to it. If it can see you, it can probably hit you. Plus, even if it scores disruption, it means that it saves it from being flanked, and could very well mean that my infantry, or other tanks in high point games, can go around and flank you instead.

I don't think its as bad as you make it out to be.

J.L.Robert

09-13-2006, 04:30 PM

At 51 points, you'll really have to build something around it. It's a centerpiece that you build around, and considering how cheap and often effective Russian infantry can be, I personally don't think it'll be that hard. Your Panzer IV moving in to flank my SU-152, is taking defensive fire as well as close assault by the infantry shield I've put around it, and your SSPGs have to face fire just to get to the SU-152, while it is shooting at them all the while.

At 51 points, you can easily afford an AT Gun to protect a flank. The map edge typically protects the other. You'll still have 40 points available for additional support units.

Dr_Strangelove

09-13-2006, 05:45 PM

Its about time! Now the Russians are finally coming into their own! Now just give the Red Army some anti-aircraft weapons and we will drive them like scared sheep in front of us!

All Glory to the Red Army!

mu11etboyz93

09-13-2006, 06:12 PM

Huzzah! The Glory Of The Red Army Shall Know No Bounds!!!!!

Autarch

09-13-2006, 07:01 PM

The Soviets are probably getting a low cost Def 5 infantry on par with SSPG and Ranger in this set in order to support the SU-152.

So on a road the BA-10m can: Movement phase 4+1(free road)+2(high gear) and then Assault Phase 1(aggression)+1(free road)+2(high gear)=11.
Make that 14 if they don't attack.

I guess German AFVs with low rear armor will have to stay ON the road or at least two hexes away from it. :)

Anubis

09-13-2006, 07:33 PM

Darn! Thats A Fast Car.

Richter von Manthofen

09-14-2006, 12:29 AM

I have thought how to use both units.

I believe I will usually not use the SU in 100 point games. more than 50 points for a single unit is heavy (I use the Vet Tiger but 7/6 + SA 2+ Crack Shot is worth the points. I would use it If I had a few more 1st rate russian infantry to go with it (Guards Inf maybe).

Th BA -10m is changing the whole russian strategy - at last you have a fast cheap unit that complimnets your heavy tanks

Aggression mmakes the humber looking pale (best fast unit so far)

As a complimentary unit I would strongly suggest to use the Cossack Captain for the Chance to get second. Agression is an ability that is used best as second player, so high initiatve is important.

unfortunately you cant use the SU as a AA unit ;) - 11 dice would be nice

XAos

09-14-2006, 01:45 AM

BA-10M looks playable

The SU-152 is waaay overcosted. Even if it had a Turret it wouldn't be worth more than 40 points. 51 points is just absurd.

If it can see you, it can probably hit you. Plus, even if it scores disruption, it means that it saves it from being flanked,
Hitting Sherman Rhinos won't stop them flanking the the SU-152...

Sturmgrenadier

09-14-2006, 02:07 AM

BA-10M looks playable

The SU-152 is waaay overcosted. Even if it had a Turret it wouldn't be worth more than 40 points. 51 points is just absurd.

Hitting Sherman Rhinos won't stop them flanking the the SU-152...
Wait, wait. Lets se, we dont have same problem whit Jagdtiger that cost more and its not pure infanry hell. Yes i know it have better armor and hit other tanks harder. Still, i cant se how SU-152 can be overpriced. For me its price looks correct

Arontje

09-14-2006, 02:41 AM

Indeed.

It can take out Panzer IV and SS Panzer grenadier while it is relatively strong to withstand damage. Not a one time shot.

XAos

09-14-2006, 02:47 AM

Wait, wait. Lets se, we dont have same problem whit Jagdtiger that cost more and its not pure infanry hell. Yes i know it have better armor and hit other tanks harder. Still, i cant se how SU-152 can be overpriced. For me its price looks correct
So how many Jagdtigers were in the top 4 at gencon. ?

Der Leiter

09-14-2006, 04:25 AM

So how many Jagdtigers were in the top 4 at gencon. ?

I would be surprised to see any.

Bobsalt

09-14-2006, 06:04 AM

So how many Jagdtigers were in the top 4 at gencon. ?

I would be surprised to see any.
I would be surprised if anyone even took any. It’s an historical piece, but totally unplayable in a competitive environment, especially when for 4 points more you can get the Vet Tiger. I just can’t picture anyone taking the Jagdtiger in anything other than a very casual game just to try it out. In a competitive game with prizes at stake? Forget it – the powergamers aren’t going to touch it.

I agree that the SU-152 is overpriced. It reminds me of the Jagpanther – another unit that in competitive play destined to be consigned to the tacklebox. We priced the Jagpanther at 42 in HHR; I’d say as is the SU-152 will probably be about 44 in HHR.

Richter von Manthofen

09-14-2006, 06:22 AM

HHR is not the measure of all things. ;) - Sorry could not resist.

But I might say you should differ between undercosted (i.E. Tournament material), correct priced and overpriced units.

the SU is Ok with its abilities and price. Devilish AI stats, GOOD AV stats Bombardment Hulking mass (def 6/6 not to forget). The low ammo is not a problem - how often have you used def fire with a tank (I never). Fixed Howither is a problem, but as its Medium/long range values are good I doubt that with the right support it willcause any problems. - and this only in the offensive.

TheJudge

09-14-2006, 06:32 AM

Those units look very playable and balanced. 51 points is a lot for sure but what could be better for killing SSPG's than a tank the SSPG's cannot close assault?? Well, they can, but will have a hell of a lot harder time doing it.

I like the small unit also. It will be very useful and was exactly what the Russians needed, a small vehicle for hit and runs. 4 BAM's and a SU152 could be a very fun team to play but we'll want to use some of the elite infantry they will also get in this set. Just a hunch.

XAos

09-14-2006, 07:26 AM

The low ammo is not a problem - how often have you used def fire with a tank (I never). Fixed Howither is a problem,
Defensive fire is usefull for what it prevents you opponent doing. Not for actually getting kills. So you find out what use it is, only when you don't have it.
e.g. It stops your oponent playing tactics like driving streight through the hex containing the SU-152 to end up adjascent & directly in it's rear.
Against a Jagdtiger that will loose you a tank. Against a SU-152 it will work every time.

TheJudge

09-14-2006, 07:38 AM

Defensive fire with vehicles almost never happens because most players aren't that dumb. A defensive fire with tanks would only happen out of desperation from the opponent or his urgent need to get to the objective on turn 7 perhaps.

Knowing full well you can charge the Su152 IS a disadvantage for the Russian player but who would want to charge that thing in the first place and what are you going to charge at it with? A Elite Panzer IV? A Tiger tank? Interesting idea but not real smart.

polish_horsy

09-14-2006, 08:00 AM

I might charge a Panzer IV F right through it and park on its rear. Then it can't move.

I might charge an Elite and do the same.

A Marder... A Hetzer...

there are so many possibilities. Or your Tiger can hit it from long range without fear of reprisal. The Su-152 is a nice fun piece to have in the box. I doubt it will see much competitive play. It requires a lot of support.

horacus

09-14-2006, 08:44 AM

So how many Jagdtigers were in the top 4 at gencon. ?

The first place was using a Jagdtiger in the Battle of the Bulge Scenario.

Major Adler

09-14-2006, 11:54 AM

SU152...excellent!...a killer...

shermanM4A1

09-14-2006, 05:13 PM

The SU gives the Allies (well, at least the USSR) a chance against SS-PG's. The Allies seriously needed a good AI tank and I think the SU is a great AI and AT piece.

zkraut

09-14-2006, 05:26 PM

Omg dude! What is the 105 Sherman!? Or a normal sherman!? Its the other way around! The axis need the AI units!

mu11etboyz93

09-14-2006, 06:06 PM

or a kv1? or a priest?

Muenchausen

09-14-2006, 09:14 PM

Ya, with all these dynomite Allies AI units I still get mowed over by the SSPG's. Maybe they need to come out with some dice that only rolls 4's, 5's, and 6's. Maybe that way I'll get average die rolls.

whitewind

09-14-2006, 09:32 PM

[QUOTE=Richter von Manthofen]HHR is not the measure of all things. ;) - Sorry could not resist.[QUOTE]
:D HHR is the measure of all things.... As far as scale goes it just does not matter to me anymore. It used to but now there is just too much " and I'v invested too much " to care anymore... I really like the units so far... I may break my fast and get a few cases if this good stuff keeps up!! :eek:

J.L.Robert

09-15-2006, 05:41 AM

HHR is not the measure of all things. ;) - Sorry could not resist.

Not that you could tell, with some people mentioning it in virtually every sentence they post in here... :p

Glad to see someone who shares my opinion.

:D HHR is the measure of all things....

Too bad for everybody who doesn't come into these boards? Please, spare me. Enough people enjoy this game AS IS. Kudos for those of you who care to tweak it to make it more enjoyable for yourselves. But please quit trying to force YOUR definition of fun onto the rest of us.

Seriously, if I wanted more realism I sure wouldn't be limiting myself with a d6 system.

TheJudge

09-15-2006, 06:22 AM

After thinking about the Su152, I still definitely want to try it but I also have to consider what I get for 51 points. 2 Sherman 105's are about equal to the Su152 in most respects but have to give the edge to the 152 for tank busting and the Shermans obviously get the edge for mobility and versatility.

Also, the fixed gun is a real pisser in-game. It seems fine until someone flanks you and you can't even return fire, you just have to hope there is something you can shoot at.

I love it for it's AI stats, that's undeniable, but as was said earlier, this tank will need a lot of support units which the Russians simply do not have yet except for the single hero. This tank with multiple heros would have been sick so if the Russians get a paratrooper with 5/5 or a guards troop with 5/5, then it can work. The US still has the edge on unit choices and versatility. 3 Shermans plus Rangers or Eagles is still really hard to beat for an allied army choice.

The BAM will be a good scenario or swarm piece, simply stated. Could be fun to try a army with 6 or 7 of them just to see what could happen.

whitewind

09-15-2006, 07:25 AM

Not that you could tell, with some people mentioning it in virtually every sentence they post in here... :p

Glad to see someone who shares my opinion.

Too bad for everybody who doesn't come into these boards? Please, spare me. Enough people enjoy this game AS IS. Kudos for those of you who care to tweak it to make it more enjoyable for yourselves. But please quit trying to force YOUR definition of fun onto the rest of us.

Seriously, if I wanted more realism I sure wouldn't be limiting myself with a d6 system. HEY! Every one does not appreciate HHR???!!! What?? Duh.. Anyway I got just as much a right to type my banter as you " or them "... Besides a little more realism can go a loooong way..But then again we know that so I won't mention it again. I also must say that not everyone is a fan of the rules that are written as is, again obvious.

polish_horsy

09-15-2006, 07:31 AM

SU-152 to kill SS-PG? Go right ahead. If anyone wants to buy a 51 point unit to kill a 5 point unit I wish them luck.

oddfellow

09-15-2006, 08:19 AM

SU-152 to kill SS-PG? Go right ahead. If anyone wants to buy a 51 point unit to kill a 5 point unit I wish them luck.

Thats assuming you only kill one! In seven rounds, if well supported this thing could clear a good 5-6 units in a game. Not just SSPG's either. If kept alive this unit could be a kill-o-matic. The trick is keeping it alive.

NorthernRommel

09-15-2006, 08:48 AM

Also keep in mind that for historically minded players that keep to realistic national army formations, the SU-152 will be a welcome tool. Tad overcost I think though as depicted. Clearly they (WOTC) picked the points to keep two from being used in a 100 pt army.

The armor values are clearly wrong too - but I digress. :rolleyes:

TheJudge

09-15-2006, 08:49 AM

The point is, that 51 point unit is better at killing the undercosted, huge defense 5 point units better than anything at medium and longe range. Is there anything better besides a Sherman 105 which simply cannot face a Tiger? What are the hardest things to kill in this game? 5 defense infantry right? Especially when they hide in cover. The 152 takes that away but unfortunately, at 51 points in a 7 turn game, it has a huge disadvantage since if you kill 1 unit per turn through 7 turns and they are all 5 point units, that's 35 points killed for risking a single 51 point unit. Not a great trade off unless it stays alive the whole game.

The SU 152 is very balanced on it's stats and abilities but consider if it was 41 points instead of 51, everyone would be screaming that it's undercosted! You can't win. A balanced cost would have been about 44 points in my opinion.

Comparison:

Tiger 1 63
SS Haupsturmfurher 7
BMW 5
SSPG's x5

100 points

Su 152 51
Soviet Hero 8?
Partisans x3 9
Commisar
T-70 x2= 24

I think thats around 100 points or darn near, I don't brring my stuff to work. :)

Interesting matchup? If the Su kills the Tiger in the first 3 turns or vice versa, the game is effectively over.

johnnyonthespot

09-15-2006, 09:05 AM

To those of you who say this unit is overcosted, I'll agree that it should be a little lower.

But look at it this way:

1) Bombardment + AT Power - The SU-152 is the unit with the strongest AT attacks (15/13/10) to get the Bombardment SA in AAM. That means that it will damage/destroy its targets, including medium/heavy tanks, every time it beats their defense. The next closest unit is the American 105s (Priest and Sherman 105) with 10/8/7. That's +5/+5/+3 improvement on AT attacks where your opponent will never get a cover save.

I don't think this can be easily quantified, but Bombardment + AT Power is a big, big bonus of using the SU-152.

2) The SU-152 is a jack of all trades. You don't buy it strictly to kill defense-5 infantry, but if they are causing problems, you blow them away. It is also the second-strongest Soviet AT unit, significantly cheaper than the IS-2 and with armor that is almost as good (Hulking Mass instead of Superior Armor 2).

I for one cannot wait to use this unit.

polish_horsy

09-15-2006, 09:12 AM

AV is 15/13/10 I believe. That 1 dice at long range is a biggie. At long range this guy won't even have the chance to damage most German armor since it only gets 10 dice.

Hey I think it is worth 45-48 or so. No big deal. 51 is no bad. Its better than the 57 point Jagdpanther which is probably only worth 40-45.

The SU-152 is fine as-is. I was only rebuting all the people saying this was an awesome unit. I think for its cost you better be real careful and in my mind the KV-1 is better for the cost.