Special Card for Tanks "HE Round"

[Grenzewolf]

Here's something I have concidered inorder to not change the stats of existing cards or mechanics of the game.

HE Round Card

HE Round (AVailable to Tanks Only) cost: 2pts

The Main Gun/Cannon has been loaded with a High Explosive Round. Use Long Range AT value against a soldier unit from medium to Long Range(Extended Range Included). May only be used once per game per card purchased. Discard after each use.


My rational for this is that most tanks had the HE/APERS or MultiPurpose round available, with a few exceptions. The larger caliber HE rounds such as on the 88 realy are not represented. Also one must concider that most smaller caliber cannons give a lower performance thus to purchase HE rounds to use in luie of the standard AI would be noneconomical. It does give the person who invests a conciderable amount of points into a main battle tank a choice of either purchasing supporting infantry or beefing up his investment.

Just purchasing one or two cards for a medium or heavy tank will make infantry reconcider an open ground rush when opposing one. As in horse shoes "accuracy" with an HE round isnt critical,,,,,, close is good enough. Thus the constant value at any given range.

The precidence I take on this card is that we already have obstacles to enhance our armies available, why not reasonable cards to enhance a vehicle. I have previously thought of a similar card for the Infantry squads (1pt cards) to represent an excellent junior NCO's leadership.

[edit] Been thinking about this and I changed the minimum range for HE to medium to preserve the Infantries potential if they get close.

[DarkMercy]

That's a really great idea. I think I'll try it out in my next game.

[richyj1]

I would suspect the Sherman's high AI value already accounts for it's tendancy to have lots of HE rounds for it's 75mm gun (in contrast to the 76mm gun on the M4A3A8).

But, in general, I agree certain tanks seem to have gotten 'gyped' in their AI values...

[Grenzewolf]

I would suspect the Sherman's high AI value already accounts for it's tendancy to have lots of HE rounds for it's 75mm gun (in contrast to the 76mm gun on the M4A3A8).

But, in general, I agree certain tanks seem to have gotten 'gyped' in their AI values...

Agreed, the Sherman player would not need this unless perhaps he wanted better stand-off fire power. Both in WWII and Korea Shermans and other tanks were pulled up on berms to acheive greater "Super Elevation" lobbing in HE rounds as artillery peices. Even up to the M1IP's Abrahams still had witness marks to use the M1 Gunners Quadrant to fire indirect. My Self I have used the M1 gunners quadrant to fire HE rounds from my L68 105mm on M60A3 Pattons (same cannon as I had on my early M1's) The newer M1 A1 & 2's with the 120mm smooth bore Rhinemetal cannons lack all the available rounds we once enjoyed. sigh,,,,,, "Beehive Time" we could sure use you today ;)

[118th_MPCo_abn]

Great idea.

[357FTG]

You beat me to the punch, I was looking this up earlier today. It does not feel right that a 100% infantry army without armor support can take down a combined arms army every time.

[Lotus]

A good idea Grenzewolf. What do you see as a counter? a chad, chip, etc? It would need to be represented on the map so that the appropriate tank was kept track of when firing.

[Grenzewolf]

A good idea Grenzewolf. What do you see as a counter? a chad, chip, etc? It would need to be represented on the map so that the appropriate tank was kept track of when firing.

First print yourself up a card similar to an obstacle. With a little graphic talent Im sure someone could make a nice one.

Then make chips that says HE secured to a paper clip. Attach it to your Tank card. One for each HE purchased. Some games have card sliders to keep track of hit points. These might work well also.

If you play larger forces with more than one of the same tank type, use a small piece of yellow or blue poster putty stuck on the tank to Identify each HE round. Creative types may use little ammo boxes on the back deck. Whatever works best for you. As a plausible variation, if you decide not to let your opponent know what tank has the HE Round/s stick it under the hull. Just buying one HE round would buy some respect for all your tanks. (Of course all this would have to be agreed on prior)

[boersma8]

very interesting idea! Especially the axis could do with some tanks with higher anti-infantry stats! Apart from the Brummbar they don't have much and even that one is mediocre against def. 5 inf. ( remember, Rangers are going to be the backbone (???) Weren't they elite forces????) of any Allied infantry now......

[Sturmgrenadier]

GREAT IDEA! Im not sure if once per game at cost of 2 isynt kind expensiv. Play test OTW :)

[cannonfodder]

Can any tank use it? I envision someone with a Vet Tiger adding this. This would add a bonus to crack shot. I can see this being an overwhelming advantage.
For non crack shot units though I really like the idea. It would keep these all infantry armies at bay quite nicely. There would be a reason to hunt tanks instead of just keeping your armour out of LOS until you were ready to face off against them. I also like the idea of using putty blobs underneath the tank to represent the HE rounds.

[boersma8]

GREAT IDEA! Im not sure if once per game at cost of 2 isynt kind expensiv. Play test OTW :)

Funny, initially it sounded quite cheap to me. Of course if you have multiple tanks, you could also buy more than one of these " HE cards". You would be able to deal with, at least a number of, def. 5 infantry. I can envision situations in which I'd prefer 3 HE cards over two Mausers.........

I agree it shouldn't be possible to buy these rounds for units with crack shot, on the other hand, you'd be kinda stupid to buy them for them, because they're about the only tanks that don't need better anti-infantry stats........

[Grenzewolf]

Funny, initially it sounded quite cheap to me. Of course if you have multiple tanks, you could also buy more than one of these " HE cards". You would be able to deal with, at least a number of, def. 5 infantry. I can envision situations in which I'd prefer 3 HE cards over two Mausers.........

I agree it shouldn't be possible to buy these rounds for units with crack shot, on the other hand, you'd be kinda stupid to buy them for them, because they're about the only tanks that don't need better anti-infantry stats........

Even the best shot can be foiled by a cover roll, 2pts gone. But crossing open ground is gonna be hairy. As it should be.

[UnionMan]

Not all tanks used HE rounds. Might want to do some research before dolling it out to anybody.

[Grenzewolf]

Not all tanks used HE rounds. Might want to do some research before dolling it out to anybody.

ouch!
Please read opening paragraphs of thread before using terms like "dolling". If you would like to open a new "Historical" thread on specific tank rounds and types I would love to provide references for the rounds used in many of the guns represented.

In this case HE would include cannister, apers, and other multi-purpose tanks rounds. Many agree the larger caliber tank systems are under represented in the AI role. (Hence the thread) Even a tank coxialy mounted MG is far superior to infantry configs due to magnification, stability of platform, balistic reticles and little target obscuration during fireing. These factors allowed/allow tankers to engage targets beyond tracer burnout for increased maximum effective range and accuracy. Aplied to HE rounds the effect is mutiplied by caliber and size of charge/fragmentation. During WWII it was not uncommon for a single tank to wipe out entire formations of Inf. I may have included one or two bellow.

As much as I dislike using the web as a reference..... here a couple to support my dolling.

http://www.lonesentry.com/new88mm/index.html
http://www.3ad.com/history/wwll/pool.pages/dugan.article.htmhttp://www.4point2.org/harrison.htmhttp://cartridgecollectors.org/introtoartyammo/introtoarty.htmhttp://www.inert-ord.net/russ02i/mort_at/index.htmhttp://www.inert-ord.net/russ02i/mort_at/index.htmll
http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt_panther/index.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_tank

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_battle_tank

[Grenzewolf]

Bah!!

I took the time to post 12 references for the guns and ammo used on most the tanks(japan, germany, russian, Uk, US) currently available with some first person excerps form online interviews. The first attempt is the four (only wo active above) and my several retry's only result in "Program not responding"

Oh well the information is there for anyone that bothers to search

Use the following: Tank Ammunitions WWII, High Explosive Rounds WWII, Canister ect. Hellcat (yep though a tank destroyer it carried a compliment of HE as a basic load for inf/bunkers) T-34 (BTW begining of the war they only had HE due to terrible shortages wich explains why they didnt fair as well as they should have during Barbaroso) Anyways you can punch in the gun or the tank to and get the info.
Here is a good first person read I managed to save. I hope it posts.

http://www.tankbooks.com/interviews/orval.htm

[shermanM4A1]

I've seen something similar to this done for MW. It was a great addition to that game and it might be to this game as well. The thing is that most people want their units to be more than just a dust bunny collector. By having cards, units that used to be thought of as weak become usable. The only problem is the historical aspect of the AAM game. Still, that can be overcome with certain restrictions. e.g in MW, only certain pieces can use certain cards.

[buddha_mcleod]

great idea, make the HE rounds available to the germans, and make different cards for the allies. perhaps this will offset infantry walking around right in front of basically any german tank.

[boersma8]

Yes, the (early) elephant/ Ferdinand should be very weak against ( close assaults from) infantry. This was very clearly its drawback as you will hear in any Kursk documentary...I've never heard such stories about Tigers or Panthers, so it's very weird their anti-infantry stats are so low. Therefore I cannot but conclude that this has been done solely for the purpose of gameplay and because the developers of the game were afraid that the German tanks would've become too strong with better AI dice.It's a strange assumption that gameplay would've been adversely affected had German tanks been given better AI stats! They always could've made the pieces cost more! Was the Sherman really so much better against infantry than a Tiger? I doubt it! In one of the articles reffered to above, it was actually stated that the panzer IV had a specific anti-infantry role. I don't see that in the stats ( well, apart from the elite panzer IV because of its crack shot...). I think it's only fair to give the German tanks waht tey deserve: realistic anti-infantry stats! I understand they will most probably not issue errata on this, but to include them on future German tanks would be very nice! I wonder which stats they'll give the Sturmtiger BTW...........

[Grenzewolf]

I learned something new while doing some research recently. I knew the King Tiger and some other heavies had morters installed in the turret roofs for smoke and HE/anti infantry but did not know the late war PZIV had them to. The J models went to manual traverse and elivation to make room according to one of my books. I wonder if this was because the morter was so useful or due to lack of resources. I need to research some more.

[Grenzewolf]

Bumped for newer members to review.

[Volorkey]

Maybe that will be the new feature in the next set. Contested skies had planes, d-day had obsticales, reserves had support units, maybe set six should have extra added equipment. And AP round is just one possibility. There is all kinds of extra added equipment they could come up with.

[Cpt. John Miller]

Great Idea!
Instead of obstacles or supports, maybe they could run a few cheap augmentations like this in the next set. I don't like taking 2 tank traps, or a mine field, or a 2 cost inf. I wish there were more little number cards to fix up your stategy with.
I think a RADAR card would be good too.
2 points
once per game after the flight phase but before aistrike,
you may relocate an opponents plane up to two hexes in any direction.
So you could move their plane out of range of the intended target or into range of your plane or AA gun.
RADAR changed the war quite a bit and it would make your opponent think hard before placing their plane(if they have one).
Extra strategy pieces like this would make the fabric of the game more complex and interesting IMO.

[boersma8]

Great Idea!
Instead of obstacles or supports, maybe they could run a few cheap augmentations like this in the next set. I don't like taking 2 tank traps, or a mine field, or a 2 cost inf. I wish there were more little number cards to fix up your stategy with.
I think a RADAR card would be good too.
2 points
once per game after the flight phase but before aistrike,
you may relocate an opponents plane up to two hexes in any direction.
So you could move their plane out of range of the intended target or into range of your plane or AA gun.
RADAR changed the war quite a bit and it would make your opponent think hard before placing their plane(if they have one).
Extra strategy pieces like this would make the fabric of the game more complex and interesting IMO.

Radar gave an early advance warning concerning the position of enemy ircraft. I don't think however, that it'd work at the scale of this game ( regular A&A yes!)

[Cpt. John Miller]

Radar gave an early advance warning concerning the position of enemy ircraft. I don't think however, that it'd work at the scale of this game ( regular A&A yes!)

For me it's more about being able to "purchase" one time tactics, like the HE round concept. I think IDEAS like these are good ones, and would make the game more fun, and the strategies deeper. I understand that RADAR may not make the cut but I would be interested to hear what others have to offer on this one.

[Tom_Weasle]

My brother and I have often wondered what it would be like to have customizable cards or items for certain units in A&A. A lot of minis games have them and of the ones we've played they've 'cheesed' up the game to the extent that we don't play them.

But I would be keen to give it a bash. Customizable item like HE rounds would definitely put a new spin on the game. I hope they include something like that in the next set. I’m sure if WotC implemented it, it would work well (hint, hint).

[thommieh]

How about something like this:

Intel: once per game an artillery unit can attack a unit to which it has no LOS. Cost: 3 points

It would be great for balancing the improved indirect fire of the US mortars and reflects the use of intel on the battlefield.

[Tom_Weasle]

mmm been thinking about this. Do you think you should limit the amount of 'Special' cards per game? It could get quite crazy. You could, if you have HE rounds, spend 14 points and give a crapy tank the ability to blow the hell out of infantry the whole game.

[Colonel_Coo]

HE Round (AVailable to Tanks Only) cost: 2pts

The Main Gun/Cannon has been loaded with a High Explosive Round. Use Long Range AT value against a soldier unit from medium to Long Range(Extended Range Included). May only be used once per game per card purchased. Discard after each use.


range for HE to medium to preserve the Infantries potential if they get close.
Generic feedback:
I like it in general. I would prefer a preset attack value for every tank. Something like an 7/11/11 or such printed on the card. This puts it more in line with Bombs, Rockets, All guns blazing, hull mounted cannon etc.

I also agree that the cost should be low (1pt or 2pt) and blank cards are needed in larger battles.

[Tom_Weasle]

Generic feedback:
I like it in general. I would prefer a preset attack value for every tank. Something like an 7/11/11 or such printed on the card. This puts it more in line with Bombs, Rockets, All guns blazing, hull mounted cannon etc.

I also agree that the cost should be low (1pt or 2pt) and blank cards are needed in larger battles.

or prehaps it just adds a certain amount of dice to existing attack values. eg adds +3 dice to AI attacks.

[Colonel_Coo]

or prehaps it just adds a certain amount of dice to existing attack values. eg adds +3 dice to AI attacks.

Yes, but then you break properly diced tanks (like a Sherman).

Preseting the number of dice thrown means that this "card" won't turn into a game breaking mechanic on existing units.

[Volorkey]

My brother and I have often wondered what it would be like to have customizable cards or items for certain units in A&A. A lot of minis games have them and of the ones we've played they've 'cheesed' up the game to the extent that we don't play them.

Yeah I used to be a huge mageknight player and when they added relics that made your godlike pieces even more godlike the game just went down hill from there and it died two years later.

*sigh*

[DocD]

I like the idea of having HE rounds this way.
I could imagine this idea would work as well for AP rounds, maybe with a higher cost though.

[Tom_Weasle]

Yes, but then you break properly diced tanks (like a Sherman).

Preseting the number of dice thrown means that this "card" won't turn into a game breaking mechanic on existing units.

I supose my next idea of having magical weapons or spell casting Nazis is right out?

[Colonel_Coo]

I supose my next idea of having magical weapons or spell casting Nazis is right out?

As long as the spell can be interupted by Berserking Mosin's you'll be fine.

[Cpt. John Miller]

mmm been thinking about this. Do you think you should limit the amount of 'Special' cards per game? It could get quite crazy. You could, if you have HE rounds, spend 14 points and give a crapy tank the ability to blow the hell out of infantry the whole game.

If that tank gets killed by a plane the first turn, then they will be kicking themselves with all those useless HE rounds. You can play that way if you want, at your own risk.

[world war III]

get one for crack shot (20 points if unit has this then gets +2 to the die roll):D

[Grenzewolf]

If that tank gets killed by a plane the first turn, then they will be kicking themselves with all those useless HE rounds. You can play that way if you want, at your own risk.

Excellent point.

This option will balance itself out. (As well as the game) Heaven forbid we see more inexpesive infantry on the field, anti-tank guns and tank hunters,,,,,,,,,, OH NO!! I might have to field something other than 5/5 infantry! Not to mention actualy use some tactics rather than crunch numbers for a win.

[Grenzewolf]

mmm been thinking about this. Do you think you should limit the amount of 'Special' cards per game? It could get quite crazy. You could, if you have HE rounds, spend 14 points and give a crapy tank the ability to blow the hell out of infantry the whole game.

Keep in mind though that a crappy tank with HE rounds is still only as good as its "Long Range" AV value. Sooooooo...... a crappy tank with HE is just a crappy tank with crappy HE.

[shadowhooch]

You thought about the impact of Marders and Nashorns and Hetzers?
They become EXTREMELY formidable - especially the Nashorn with its SA. Maybe this is a good thing? Or is it too much?

[Grenzewolf]

You thought about the impact of Marders and Nashorns and Hetzers?
They become EXTREMELY formidable - especially the Nashorn with its SA. Maybe this is a good thing? Or is it too much?

Why yes, yes I did. Did you read the discription HE "Tanks only"? hehe Good lord it's the first line man! hehe ;) No, tank hunters/destroyers were puposely built for that job and though HE rounds were available to many of those weapon systems they were rarely employed or combat loaded for the AI role.

[NorthernRommel]

I learned something new while doing some research recently. I knew the King Tiger and some other heavies had morters installed in the turret roofs for smoke and HE/anti infantry but did not know the late war PZIV had them to. The J models went to manual traverse and elivation to make room according to one of my books. I wonder if this was because the morter was so useful or due to lack of resources. I need to research some more.

The Germans preferred manual traverse and elevation because it allowed for more accurate shooting. One of the reasons why the Tiger 1 was so accurate at range not just its optics but also because it used a very slow turret traverse.

Manual Traverse also gave tanks back up systems for moving a turret when electrical systems failed. The German changes in turret sizes also had a lot to do with putting bigger guns in the turret and also having the ability to store more ammo in the turret itself. I believe the changes to the late model P3 and P4 were largely for that reason.

On the APMortars, I read that the Shermans had them as well but rarely used them. They had more use for firing smoke rounds, as they were the regular 2 inch mortar used by foot soldiers as well. The German one I am not sure about, but I did read where they used them with good effect when dealing with mass russian swarms. I do have them in my game rules.

[shadowhooch]

Why yes, yes I did. Did you read the discription HE "Tanks only"? hehe Good lord it's the first line man! hehe ;) No, tank hunters/destroyers were puposely built for that job and though HE rounds were available to many of those weapon systems they were rarely employed or combat loaded for the AI role.

Aahh. Gotchya. Makes sense.

[Grenzewolf]

The Germans preferred manual traverse and elevation because it allowed for more accurate shooting. One of the reasons why the Tiger 1 was so accurate at range not just its optics but also because it used a very slow turret traverse.

Manual Traverse also gave tanks back up systems for moving a turret when electrical systems failed. The German changes in turret sizes also had a lot to do with putting bigger guns in the turret and also having the ability to store more ammo in the turret itself. I believe the changes to the late model P3 and P4 were largely for that reason.

On the APMortars, I read that the Shermans had them as well but rarely used them. They had more use for firing smoke rounds, as they were the regular 2 inch mortar used by foot soldiers as well. The German one I am not sure about, but I did read where they used them with good effect when dealing with mass russian swarms. I do have them in my game rules.

Every Tank I have served on had redundancy to the fire control system. From my M-48's M60's and M1's including the latest M1A2 SEP. Even my M3 and M2 Bradleys have manual. If all the gee-wiz gadgets go to Sh*t you can always fall back on the mechanical gear box.

The Tiger I believe had an electrical turret drive and thus had a very low traverse speed to move so much mass. I read that during Kursk the Tiger commanders lamented that the T-34's were scooting across the muddy stepes faster than they could traverse to shoot them. Mean while the Tigers were stuck in the mud waiting to be shot in the tail or rammed. God that must have been frustrating.

As far as accuracy is concerned there is some merit in what you say. When we bosight we always lay our Zero rounds using manual. This helps to negate any effect of spongy hydraulics or other systems corrupting or boresight data.

As far as manual being better I disagree. The Germans were forced by necessity to go total manual on models like the PZ IVJ as you said due to the addition of larger guns, more ammo storage, additional armor, ease of manufacture and the mortar ect etc. Cranking a turret around manually is a royal pain more so if your on a slope. The gear ratio's are low for more torque and while your cranking to beat the devil its difficult to keep your eyes steady on the aperture. Can you get good at it? Sure, but give me a variable speed commanders over ride or gunners control any day of the week. A close in moving enemy and and manual is useless.

Speaking of the mortar most novices think the smoke grenade launchers are offensive while the semi-learned scoff when you mention the offensive turret mortars, thinking your referring to the launchers. lol I guess thats what they mean by a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I to have read they were put to good use on mass Soviet infantry. As well as covering dead areas where the crew did not have line of sight. Some how this game really lost sight of the tank in the infantry support role as an incredible foot slogger slayer.