The Doctor's Take on Ammo Dumps, Part One

[Dr.Cornelius]

A number of well-respected players have written that the Ammo Dump is too expensive and fragile to have a significant impact on the metagame. Is an Ammo Dump worth two SS-Panzergrenadiers? That remains to be seen, but my take is that the Ammo Dump has a lot of potential.

By the numbers:
Rerolling 1's increases the probability of a success of a normal attack roll from 50% (3/6) to 58% (3/6 + (1/2)*(1/6)).

The practical effect is to reduce the value of high defense. For example, an 8 die attack against defense 5 infantry has a 36% chance to disrupt and 14% chance to damage. But add in an Ammo Dump and the probability increases to 55% / 28%.

For the sake of argument, lets start with the premise that an army can be designed in such a way as to keep the Ammo Dump in play for several turns or force the opponent to commit disproportionate resources to take it out. I will cover the issue of protecting an Ammo Dump in part two, but for now lets assume that it can be done.

I think there is a good possibility to create a low-defense army with significant advantages over both high armor vehicles and defense 5 infantry.

For example, it is well established that even efficient light armored vehicles like the Humber, Stuart, StuG III and EPzIV have a low probability of killing their points in SS. With cover and a HStFü, the Panzergrenadiers are very hard to beat with 8 die attacks. By the numbers - 8 attack dice at medium range yields only a 36% chance to disrupt a defense 5 unit. But add in an Ammo Dump and the chance to distrupt / destroy increases to 55% / 28%.

Of course this analysis ignores other problems like light armored vehicles vulnerability to the BMW, but I think that it has potential. One alternative would be to go with a Carro Armato or T-35 swarm to take advantage of Overlapping Fire.

It is going to take a lot of creative thought and playtesting, but I am willing to bet that someone will come up with a universally strong Ammo Dump build that can give defense 5 infantry and other archetypes a run for their money.

[XAos]

I was considering a thread to ask your opinion on the "supply" units. & here it is
Thanks. :)

I tend to agree, the ammo dump shifts the "sweet-spot" for units to slightly below where it used to be. Some of the Japanese tanks (Ho-Ni & Chi-Ha) improve in cost-effectiveness perceptably. As do {Pzkw-IDd, Hetzer, M13-40, T-35, Char-B}
If planes turn out to be effective at killing supply units, the new axis fighters should be usefull (to protect them)
I suspect the supply units, plus the combined arms style force needed to protect them will need more than a 100 point force to be avoid the game balence being ruined by a rock-paper-scissors "Dynamic instability".

Dr.C whats your current preference for points in 1-hour tournaments. ? And do you think that should increase once set-5 is available. ?

[Lynx7725]

The practical effect is to reduce the value of high defense.
Uhm, you do realise that the flip side is also true -- there is a reduction in the value of low Def values too (as in it's easier to kill them now too).

I suppose it's an ok thing, if you start treating MASes, Mausers, Garands and the lot as disposable bullets, but the AT guns gets further down the line...

[Sean-Khan]

On the other hand, AT guns will also get more effective, and cover is getting bigger factor that it used to be. I like that. Bunkers are probably going to see a lot of use.

[Lynx7725]

On the other hand, AT guns will also get more effective, and cover is getting bigger factor that it used to be. I like that. Bunkers are probably going to see a lot of use.
Point.

Hmm, can you put an ammo dump in a bunker? Reasonable actually...

[Count_Ciano]

So, I wonder if the ability to re-roll ones means the Brixia no longer self-disrupts....it's gonna make this little unit really pesky, isn't it?

[Remember-OWS-]

Point.

Hmm, can you put an ammo dump in a bunker? Reasonable actually...


I would say Yes... They are soldiers... and if they do not make it too big, like "Large" for some artillery, it would be nice to put them there too...

Getting more and more expensive.
Again, for air protection, the allies will be more server with the bofor at 9 points and the quad at 10 compare to the 20mm flak or the Flakpanzer.

[Stojakovic]

OMG the Dr. is in! :eek:

[TheCygnysGuardian]

It's good to have you back Doc. We all missed you and your articles.

[Raptor]

Uhm, you do realise that the flip side is also true -- there is a reduction in the value of low Def values too (as in it's easier to kill them now too).

I suppose it's an ok thing, if you start treating MASes, Mausers, Garands and the lot as disposable bullets, but the AT guns gets further down the line...

True but relatively less so as if you could already reliably 1 shot a unit (>75%) the additional successes are typically just wasted as overkill.

[Raptor]

I would say Yes... They are soldiers... and if they do not make it too big, like "Large" for some artillery, it would be nice to put them there too...

Getting more and more expensive.
Again, for air protection, the allies will be more server with the bofor at 9 points and the quad at 10 compare to the 20mm flak or the Flakpanzer.

Don't forget the 88mm Flak 36. It makes a great choice to cover your ammo dump as its extended range let it be effective from your side of the board, and with the re-rolls on 1s it should be pretty good at keeping the planes away. Sandbagged MGs are good too.

[Krimsonstarr]

So, I wonder if the ability to re-roll ones means the Brixia no longer self-disrupts....it's gonna make this little unit really pesky, isn't it?

It will make it harder to do so according to the Q&A:

http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?t=15241

"Only the final dice results count toward SAs. If you Rapid Fire with a Brixia Mortar, get five 1s, reroll, and get no 1s, the mortar is not disrupted. If one of your rerolls is another 1, then the mortar is disrupted.

The same goes for the Kuomintang MG. Only the rerolled results are considered for Overheat."

[tragicmishap]

To anybody: Prove it to me. I'm willing to change my mind if given a good demonstration. OE has a great Play-by-post sytem set up. I'll even tell you my army.

5X SS-PGs
3X SS-STs
2X SNLF Fanatics
Imp. Sgt.
SS-Haup.
Werm. Sniper
BMW
Grizzled Vet

Of course, if you build just to beat this army there will be an asterisk on the game, so you should try to make it versatile, as the Doc suggests.

Off topic: Doc, I remember you saying you helped design the first winner at GenCon SoCal. Would you mind posting it? That was before set II came out correct?

[spite48]

The difference is even more dramatic with crack shot.

A normal shot has the liklihood of success increased by 8% from 50% to 58% with an ammo dump

a crack shot has the liklihood of success increased by 11% from 67% to 78%!

[Richter von Manthofen]

I would think that low def/low attack units get more playable.

Field a high def/high cost unit that can now be hit by comparable weaker units OR field 2-3 low dev/cost units that can now easier hit the higher def units.

For example the SNLF Fanatic was clearly superior to two SMLE for instance as he problably was not hit often at mid-long range and to kill him two units must have hit him (or all 6 AT of the SMLE must have shown up as sucesses). In close range the SNLF would have probably hit by one SMLE, but at the same time would have probably killed one SMLE (with hard charger the SNLF would have shrug of disruption for net turns attach anyway). and 1-1 the SMLE would have to be lucky to survive.

But now the SMLE have a decent chance to hit the SNLF once at mid range and in close combat a loss of 1 SNLF and only 1 SMLE is probable - didn't do the Math, but I think I am not far off.

The question is how long would a Ammo dump survive?

it has a chance of 1/3 of blowing up itself with each attack on it, not considering that the attack really hits. Assume a At 8-6 plane attacking the dump has a 63% chance to disrupt and 36 % chance to kill the dump with an attack - assume the dump is in cover with +1 for the pillbox and -1 for an attack from the same hex, you get a net chance of an killing attack of 0,36*0,5= 18% + 33 percent for the insta blow up you get roughly 51% of a dead dump in one round (thus denying you the bonus half the time from the start of the game) and you can expect that the whole thing will live probably only for 1-3 turns.

10 points is a hefty price then... and you would have to add the pillbox cost too, as you will put it in a save place where it will be of not much use for the main battle.

[boersma8]

The good thing is,though that it also affects abilities such as strike and fade and aggression,making ducking behind cover more feasible etc. If at least you gain initiative, you might get a potentially devastating first assault phase.....

[Richter von Manthofen]

If you gain initiative I would simply hide in shadows (err wrong game :D) - I admit that would be often a good thing for my enemy in itself.

[polish_horsy]

I love the Ruthless stacks with Bonzai stacks with Ammo combo... that one is hilarious. Go ahead and try to miss! Good luck. Each die roll has BETTER than a 97% chance of successs.

[boersma8]

Part of the fun to me back in the day when only the first two sets were out was that it was actually possible to MISS too! It's not like every single shot and/or attack were succesful throughout the war! WoTC are actually SPOILING MY FUN this way. I thought that their decisions were meant to make the game MORE fun! ( In some ways they manage, in many they don't.....)

This is a reaction to Polish horsy's post that some attacks and combos make misses all but impossible.........( Quotes don't always get posted...)

[Kaufschtick]

I'll even tell you my army. Of course, if you build just to beat this army there will be an asterisk on the game, so you should try to make it versatile, as the Doc suggests.

Well, we all know that if one knows his/her opponents build, it's a big advantage. If you freely give this advantage away to your opponent, that would be your choice, there are no "asterisks" in the rules.

If there were, that would make the game a "no-lose" game for you tragic, shame on you! :p. You're trying to set up a game that becomes "if you win, you win. If you lose, you really don't because you showed your build up front and so it doesn't really count"! :rolleyes:.

If you want to show your "hand" up front, that's your choice, if you lose, you lose, that's all there is to it. :)

[tragicmishap]

Have I ever been anything but fair in my observations? If I lose and the build I lose to would fail miserably against a heavy armor build, then I will say so. I might even challenge that same build again with a dedicated armor build like double Crocs or something. I guess that would be better than adding an asterisk. So that's the new challenge. Beat my first team and this one:

2X Croc
2X Stuart

Yes, I'm giving my opponent the advantage here. But if I win then there's no doubt I was right.

[tragicmishap]

I would think that low def/low attack units get more playable.

Field a high def/high cost unit that can now be hit by comparable weaker units OR field 2-3 low dev/cost units that can now easier hit the higher def units.

This would work without the Ammo Dump if there were no unit limit. Using the Ammo Dump now costs more than three infantry units, instead of just costing two Rangers/SS-PGs.

[Kaufschtick]

Have I ever been anything but fair in my observations?

Yes you have been, and commendably so.

If I lose and the build I lose to would fail miserably against a heavy armor build, then I will say so.

The game's just about what you played, not what you could have played.

[Dr.Cornelius]

Off topic: Doc, I remember you saying you helped design the first winner at GenCon SoCal. Would you mind posting it? That was before set II came out correct?

GenCon SoCal 2005 Winning Army
Designed by DJensen47 & Dr.Cornelius
Piloted by DJensen47

35 Crocodile
42 Sherman x2
15 Stuart
07 Red Devil Captain (initiative control for Croc mirror match)

In retrospect a 2 Croc lineup would have been stronger against the competition. We considered two Crocs, a Sherman and a RDC but considered it too cheesy. The second Croc is also not as strong as 2x Sherman against a Tiger I, which was a consideration in the Set 1 environment.

[Dr.Cornelius]

Dr.C whats your current preference for points in 1-hour tournaments. ? And do you think that should increase once set-5 is available. ?

The "sweet spot" is 150 points. It is difficult to fit in a lot of the interesting support units in 100 points, and filling 200 points requires fielding heavy tanks or a swarm of mediums.

I don't have a strong opinion on 15 vs 20 unit limit in 150 points.

Regardless of the point total, we find it very difficult to get to turn 7 in 60 minutes and generally run 70 or 90 minute rounds.

I really like the Battle of the Bulge scenario scoring - I think it works much better than the original victory conditions. I would modify it slightly to have no objective point scoring on turn 1 - it is too much of an advantage to the player starting closest to the objective. I also like the Bulge-style map setup with players on the edge of the long ends.

[Dr.Cornelius]

It's good to have you back Doc. We all missed you and your articles.Thanks - wish I had more time for AAM. I'm working at a networking startup in silicon valley, so the hours are pretty brutal.

[Dr.Cornelius]

I'll even tell you my army.

5X SS-PGs
3X SS-STs
2X SNLF Fanatics
Imp. Sgt.
SS-Haup.
Werm. Sniper
BMW
Grizzled Vet

Of course, if you build just to beat this army there will be an asterisk on the game, so you should try to make it versatile, as the Doc suggests.
I think a Stuart swarm backed up by a protected Ammo Dump is reasonable against most armies and could give the perfect army v. 2.0 a run for its money - except for the BMW & Sniper. The Bike beats light armor like a drum. And the WE Sniper beats heavy armor. Any ideas on how to counter the Sniper/Bikes?

[Sean-Khan]

The Bike beats light armor like a drum. And the WE Sniper beats heavy armor. Any ideas on how to counter the Sniper/Bikes?
I've always been fan of mixed forces - including several riflemen. You can't protect yourself from the sniper except by killing it or cover fire'ing it(planes, paras/partisans, jeep/smg, humber). Russians reduce it's chances by bringing in cossack.

Group of riflemen or AT troops advancing before the armor more or less prevents charge/flanking of light tanks. I also wait if we'll sometimes get paratroopers with AT weapons =) But was AT weaponry used by them in WW2? I'm not aware of that.

[Richter von Manthofen]

This would work without the Ammo Dump if there were no unit limit. Using the Ammo Dump now costs more than three infantry units, instead of just costing two Rangers/SS-PGs.

The trick is to keep the limit. "best" combo against inf only builds might be an ammo dump (10), A bunch of 5* Screaming Eagles (9) + Captain (11), 5*Garands(20) +3*Ranger (5) for 15units 100 points.

:D

Just noticed that we are´back at the def 5 units :D

But the trick with the ammo dump really is that low cost infantry can now stand their own against high cst def 5 inf (SSPG and Ranger are another category). Now you can add a hard Punch big ass Tank (Say Tiger) and still field a large number of low cost infantry to deal with swarm builds. Now even CA 6 inf are a good threat against the sherman.

[Colonel_Coo]

Ammo Dump
Chinese MG teams (6 points each)
British Air Superiority fighter (22 pts?)
American soldier support for tank kill.
Russian Officer (not the commisar) for inititative control and dilute enemy strength



Ammo Dump
German Do-335 or their air superioity fighter support
SS H'Fu for inititative control and offense support
Brixia Mortar for anti-infantry role.
Mauzers for general build
Elite panzer IV for anti-tank and anit-infantry at range (hits on 3,4,5,6 and rerolls all 1's for success on 3,4,5,6) 7 Dice move from 4.16 successes per turn to 4.95 success on avearge.

[polish_horsy]

well a great build against infantry only armies might be:

Ammo
US Mortar x6
jeep x2 (to act as sacrificial spotters)
ranger x2

if the axis infantry make cover rolls in turns 1 and 2... they win. if they don't... they loose. but I'm guessing this earns an asterisk. :) You could trade in the ammo for 2 Rangers and have more of a chance to win if the axis makes early cover saves.

a more balanced team maybe is:

US mortar x4 = 48
Jeep x2 = 8
Ranger x3 = 15
Bazooka x4 = 16
Gurkha Rifle = 4
Inspiring hero = 9

I'd be up for giving that second one a go against both of Tragic's armies... not saying I'd win but it would be interesting.

[Kaufschtick]

10 x US Ranger =50
2 x US 81mm Mortar =24
1 x US SE Para =9
1 x Red Devill Para =8
1 x Inspiring Hero =9
Total =100

15 Units, 13 being 5/5 defence. All 15 units capable of taking shots each turn if targets are available. The Paras would be to drop into areas in the enemys rear (The Hero could deploy here also if need be and use the movement bonus to better relocate these units faster if needed) to gain spotting positions on units such as Axis commanders.

[cannonfodder]

If I were going to use an amo dump in a 100 pint game, and I'm still not sure I would, the build would probably look something like this.
Ammo Dump (10)
US Mortar (12)
Red Devil Cpt (7)
M1 Garand X4 (20)
Buffalo Soldiers X6(30)
Sherman (21)
14 units, 100 points. And I think this would do very well against Tragics builds, both one and two. I'm not the tactician he seems to be but someone with more experience than me could probably hand him his hat with this build.
The RDC and M1 (with extra die for proximity to commander) sit in cover and fire at mid range at the approaching army. With the reroll these units outgun the SSPGs at this range, or at least equal them (I don't have an SSPG card handy). The Buff Soldiers act as shock troops. The mortar pounds away at enemy inf and the Sherman goes after enemy vehicles (to stop the BMW from getting to the Ammo Dump and Mortar.)
In the case of the second build I've got 10 units with CA 7 and the Sherman to kill tanks. With reroll they actually stand a chance of disrupting or even damaging a Croc. With the second build I would place the Ammo Dump behind trees and build an inf wall around it. You want me come and get me. I'll head for the objective late in the game.
As an aside I think the prime use (only use?) for partisans is to kill these units like Ammo Dump and Fuel Dump). By deploying in the enemy rear and only 5 hexes away max (the board is only 11 hexes wide) from these units they will be plinking away at them from round 1. Remember the ammo dump will explode 1/3 of the time even if the attack isn't successful. Three partisans plunked in the right spot (deploying second) and the Ammo Dump should be statistically likely to be gone by the end of the first turn (even if you roll like me) at the expense of a few infantry units which spend the rest of the game harassing the enemy rear. (That sounds dirty but you get my point)

[Kaufschtick]

The RDC and M1 (with extra die for proximity to commander) sit in cover and fire at mid range at the approaching army. With the reroll these units outgun the SSPGs at this range, or at least equal them (I don't have an SSPG card handy). The Buff Soldiers act as shock troops.

The 5/5 defense troops of tragic's build will overwelm the 4/4 infantry.

The mortar pounds away at enemy inf and the Sherman goes after enemy vehicles (to stop the BMW from getting to the Ammo Dump and Mortar.)

The Sherman will find itself ducking tragic's combo of WE Sniper and BMW. Those two pieces are more than a match for a Sherman.

[Kaufschtick]

And I think this would do very well against Tragics builds, both one and two.

The keys against tragic's infantry build are getting to the SS Haupster and the Imp. Sgt. These are both 4/4 defense units with huge SA's. If you can take these out, his force suffers a significant setback in ability. His BMW and WE Sniper are potent against armor, so to minimize this, go all infantry, preferably 5/5 infantry. The BMW will still be a threat to flank and get at things like mortars, but at 3/3 is not too survivable. Likewise, the WE Sniper out of cover is not too survivable, so it's lack of maneuverability is a drawback.

I'd like to see how tragic mixes in the upcoming German paras into his infantry build once we get the low-down on this key German piece. :)

[cannonfodder]

His SSPGs (6 of them) have to outgun 6 Buff Soldiers. With the bonus reroll these units should be mutually destructive, especially at short range. At the same time I'm eating his STs from a range they can't fire back at, using the RDC and the M1s.
The sniper can't hurt my Sherman if he can't see it, I'm not stupid enough to hang it out there were he can shoot it. I can also count to 7 and therefore his BMW shouldn't be able to sneak up on me, even on a road. As I said the Sherman stays back by the ammo dump and the mortar.

[Kaufschtick]

The sniper can't hurt my Sherman if he can't see it, I'm not stupid enough to hang it out there were he can shoot it. I can also count to 7 and therefore his BMW shouldn't be able to sneak up on me, even on a road. As I said the Sherman stays back by the ammo dump and the mortar.

Hold on there "Tex", nobody said you were stupid! :)

But if you leave a 21 point Sherman back to protect a 12 point mortar and a 10 point ammo dump, that's 43 of your 100 point force in the "rear" being held at bay by a 5 point motorbike. That means the other 95 points of his force are going to be going against the remaining 57 points of your build. Him with 5/5 infantry and you with 4/4 infantry. That's all I'm saying. :)

[polish_horsy]

and of course the 3 bricks and a pony (3 KV-1s and a Polish Horse) is still IMO a tough match for both the all infantry and heavy armor combo.

[Raptor]

So what do you think of the SU-152 as a replacement for the KV-1 in these builds? In that one you're not using the KV's transport ability anyway.

Try this build:

SU-152x1 51pt
KV-1x1 32pt
Cossack Captainx1 9pt
Hero of the SUx1 8pt

[polish_horsy]

I don't think much of the SU-152.

[cannonfodder]

Okay so I over reacted but come on. Assuming I'd let him use headshot and then get scooped by a bike? I haven't fallen for that stunt in months :D
Once the Sherman and the mortar kill the bike it should be easy to move up behind cover with the Sherman, get a good field of fire and sit there ignoring the Sniper, who still can't see me, while I add dice to attacking the inf.
Another question I have is why should an army have to beat both of tragics builds? If I knew I was going to be attending the same tourney as him I would assume he would build something like the perfect army and counter build accordingly. I've already stated here and elsewhere thiat I probably wouldn't use these new units in a tourney. Honestly, after Nov 10th the obvious counter build is
Thompson Gunner X4 (20)
Rangers X6 (30)
Mortars X2 (24)
RD Cpt X2 (14)
Vickers MG team (10)
15 units, 98 points. Add a minefield if you are willing to fudge the 15 unit limit (not in tourneys of course)
Now it's basically heads up. The difference between the armies is primarily SAs. Hampster removing dis counters and Angriff/Banzai Charge vs 2 X RDCpt giving -1 to cover. The bike is pretty much useless as long as you can LOS to it before it gets to the mortar. The MG team held slightly back (not all the way back to the mortar just far enough to cover it.) should do the trick. Even if he gets 1 of them I should still be okay.
Of course this means we have to wait 2 and 1/2 weeks for this to play out.
Does this seem like a better counter-tragic build?

[tragicmishap]

The keys against tragic's infantry build are getting to the SS Haupster and the Imp. Sgt. These are both 4/4 defense units with huge SA's. If you can take these out, his force suffers a significant setback in ability.

Yes, that's the key. So far no one's been able to do it. Although I don't think anybody has tried hard enough either.


I'd like to see how tragic mixes in the upcoming German paras into his infantry build once we get the low-down on this key German piece. :)

We'll see. If they are anything like the Defiant Paratroopers I'll pass. If I sense that I'm paying 2 points for the Paratrooper SA like it seems with the other Paras, I'll pass as well. 2 pts. is not worth it to me. But like I said, we'll see.

[tragicmishap]

I think a Stuart swarm backed up by a protected Ammo Dump is reasonable against most armies and could give the perfect army v. 2.0 a run for its money - except for the BMW & Sniper. The Bike beats light armor like a drum. And the WE Sniper beats heavy armor. Any ideas on how to counter the Sniper/Bikes?

Hmmm. Stuart swarm definitely sounds like it has a shot. The main thing is to kill a LOT before turn 7. I have my doubts about that, since at most I'll be facing 3 of the 6 Stuarts at a time since you'll have to outflank me to get any shots at all. Still, that's six shots a turn, if you can keep them alive and shooting that is. I don't think it could beat the Croc army though. Not even close.

Thanks for posting your army. Double Crocs is still one of the strongest builds in the game. For set 1 I definitely think it's the strongest, although Shermans are no slouch unit either.

[tragicmishap]

The trick is to keep the limit. "best" combo against inf only builds might be an ammo dump (10), A bunch of 5* Screaming Eagles (9) + Captain (11), 5*Garands(20) +3*Ranger (5) for 15units 100 points.

That's 101 points. Replace a SE Para with a Resourceful Hero and it should be fine.

Against my two proposed test builds, eh. Against the infantry team you'd have a good shot I suppose, simply by having all good infantry and 8 def 5s. The key would be how you protect the Ammo Dump from the BMW and Grizzled Vet that may or may not be coming after it. If you protect it too much, I'll ignore it and throw everything at the objective, just like if you fielded too many mortars and protected them well. I'd take a lot of casualties at first, but I'd make sure you do too and I'll have more units there when the dust settles.

Against the armor build this one would fare much worse. There's nothing to keep the Ammo Dump and whatever is protecting it from getting blasted to heck by the Stuarts. You have a lot of CAs, but only two can shoot at a time per tank. Those CAs will have a lot of die modifiers, but I'd have to think the Ammo Dump would not last long. Neither would the SE cpt.

[tragicmishap]

Another question I have is why should an army have to beat both of tragics builds? If I knew I was going to be attending the same tourney as him I would assume he would build something like the perfect army and counter build accordingly.

I'll tell you exactly why: Because I'm not the only good player out there. Several times people at GenCon constructed builds to beat me because I made it very clear I was going to play the same army all week. Some of them actually ended up playing me, but many did not because they lost to other people. At a tournament, you will have to beat both armies like mine and double Croc armies as well as other all armor builds.

Honestly, after Nov 10th the obvious counter build is
Thompson Gunner X4 (20)
Rangers X6 (30)
Mortars X2 (24)
RD Cpt X2 (14)
Vickers MG team (10)
15 units, 98 points.
...
Does this seem like a better counter-tragic build?

Um, no. You should at least put in a Jeep for a Thompson Gunner so you can actually use those mortars to take out my captains. Otherwise you might as well field the Russian mortars since the Rangers can spot for them anyway. The main things though is you have only 6 def 5 infantry units while I have 11. Also, against the double Croc, double Stuart build, this build would die a horrible death.

[tragicmishap]

Polish horsy and Raptor: I will be doing a simulated tournament with both your suggested builds in it. I will post the results here.

[kurtgish]

Polish horsy and Raptor: I will be doing a simulated tournament with both your suggested builds in it. I will post the results here.

That would be cool. I haven't yet played Polish Horsy's "Three Bricks and a Pony" and have always been intrigued by it going against the "Perfect Army".

[Kaufschtick]

Yes, that's the key. So far no one's been able to do it. Although I don't think anybody has tried hard enough either.

I would use the folowing build as an anti infantry build:
10xRangers
2x81mm mortars
1xSE Para
1xRed Devil Para
1xInspiring Hero

The para's job would be to gain LOS against the leaders, even deploying the Hero if need be, and of course, calling "Mulligan". Disclaimer: This build is obviously not nearly as balanced as tragic's build.

[Kaufschtick]

We'll see. If they are anything like the Defiant Paratroopers I'll pass. If I sense that I'm paying 2 points for the Paratrooper SA like it seems with the other Paras, I'll pass as well. 2 pts. is not worth it to me. But like I said, we'll see.

Not even to get at mortars? Even one para and a Hero spawning off of it is a pretty good threat to units like mortars, at least it would seem that way to me. :confused: What say you?

P.S.- You know I regard you as the best player out there, don't you?

[polish_horsy]

Tragic,

Were you using my 4 mortar team or my 3 KV-1 team or both?

[tragicmishap]

Kaufschtick: Thanks for the compliment. I'm probably not the best player out there, though. Maybe the best player active on the boards. Although OE is giving me quite a run for my money right now on PBP. As for the Fallshmeigjasiarz, I already have a BMW and a Grizzled Vet to threaten mortars. And the Beamer can do a lot more things than the Paras can. For instance, say I want to freeze a Stuart or Humber. I go first, run into it's hex, and now unless it wants to be disrupted it can't move. Then during the assault phase I run away, leaving the Stuart with no shots on anything and a wasted turn. If I go second, I run in with the BMW during the assault phase and spawn the Grizzled Vet there next turn :). That is a threat to take out shermans even. This duo can do a lot more than a couple paratroopers, and probably costs less. But like I said, we'll see.

Polish Horsy: I mean "Three Bricks and a Pony." It does look like a good team, but I want to try it out and see. I just figured out a great way to use the Polish Horsy, and three KV-1s should be pretty strong.

[NorthernRommel]

4 Stuarts
3 Jeeps
2 Flame Throwers
1 Red Devil

Stuarts Travel in Diamond formation if heavy infantry build on opponents side to maximize firepower or to swarm Stugs, aircraft and the like.

Flamethrowers are insurance in the event of heavy enemy armor. If enemy has not infantry then rush them to the objective. Use the Stuarts to flank incoming infantry or light armor.

Dismount Flamers and Red Devil if you need a BMW screen or Strike and Fade hunters.

I won two tournaments with this army before I moved on to playing German. Playing allied is generally boring. No real challenge to it.

You could drop one jeep and Stuart if you really feel you need fire power. Throwing in Brens or Bazookas not so bad either.

[Kaufschtick]

Kaufschtick: Thanks for the compliment. I'm probably not the best player out there, though. Maybe the best player active on the boards.

On the boards, yes, that's what I meant.

[Dr.Cornelius]

I don't think much of the SU-152.You are correct, sir. At 51 points the SU-152 should be a dominating presence - but as written it is one SA short of competitive. Would it have killed them to give the 152 defense 7, or at least superior armor? Why no Blast to go with Bombardment? Even transport would have added some value. Hulking mass and a big gun are nice, but the stats just don't add up to 51 points.

Especially considering the Germans can field a Brummbär and a JagdPanzer IV for the same points.

[Dr.Cornelius]

and of course the 3 bricks and a pony (3 KV-1s and a Polish Horse) is still IMO a tough match for both the all infantry and heavy armor combo.Agreed - but I think the SS team (perfect army 2.0) has an advantage. The key is that PA 2.0 has two pieces to counter heavy armor (WE Sniper w/ Headshot and Imp. Sgt. w/ Banzai). It is difficult to win after your 32 point KV-1 gets auto-disrupted by an 11 point AT gun.

A similar situation applies with respect to the BMW R75 motorcycle vs light and medium armor.

Here is an army that matches up a little better

Two Bricks, a Corsair, a Cossack and a Hero
64 KV-1 x2
20 F4U Corsair
08 Cossack Captain
08 Hero of the Soviet Union
100 points

The Corsair is included specifically to kill the dreaded WE Sniper. The Sturmovik would have been cooler - both planes have superior armor but the Corsair has +1 attack vs infantry, antiair SA and costs one point less.

Cossack Capt gives the Russians a shot at winning initiative, blunts the SS close assault and spawns the Hero.

The biggest weakness of this team is against high defense tanks. A Veteran Tiger, T-34/85 or even a new Panther could be big trouble. Otherwise the build should match up reasonably against infantry, light/medium armor swarm and combined arms builds.

[Dr.Cornelius]

(regarding Tragicmishap)
P.S.- You know I regard you as the best player out there, don't you?The Gencon results would certainly indicate that Tragicmishap is the best player, but lets not be misled by the empirical evidence.

In my opinion, AAM can be broken down into two key elements: army design and tactical skill.

Army design involves selecting the most efficient units, developing synergy between units and most importantly anticipating the types of armies opponents will field.

Tactical skill involves making the most effective use of the terrain and units on the board, setting up favorable exchanges and outmaneuvering your opponent.

Based on the Gencon reports it is clear that Tragic is an excellent army designer - perhaps the best in the game. But it is not clear if he is a superior tactician. Would an experienced player have done just as well using Tragicmishap's army? Maybe.

At a miniumum I will say that the Gencon field appears to have grossly underestimated the power of Banzai Charge, and is therefore not a particularly good indicator of Tragic's skill

[mu11etboyz93]

i have played against tragic in person and he is a very difficult opponent.

[polish_horsy]

Agreed - but I think the SS team (perfect army 2.0) has an advantage. The key is that PA 2.0 has two pieces to counter heavy armor (WE Sniper w/ Headshot and Imp. Sgt. w/ Banzai). It is difficult to win after your 32 point KV-1 gets auto-disrupted by an 11 point AT gun.

A similar situation applies with respect to the BMW R75 motorcycle vs light and medium armor.

Here is an army that matches up a little better

Two Bricks, a Corsair, a Cossack and a Hero
64 KV-1 x2
20 F4U Corsair
08 Cossack Captain
08 Hero of the Soviet Union
100 points

The Corsair is included specifically to kill the dreaded WE Sniper.

But you are dedicating 20 points to primarily kill a sniper. I will try to do the job with a 4 point piece that is a perfect counter to the sniper... a disrupted Cavalry with hand to hand 9 is enough to stand a solid chance to kill the sniper. If he succeeds my team has the advantage. If he fails... well there is still hope but it would be difficult I conceed. But even so, it is not easy to actually kill 3 KV-1's... and the game does eventually have to end.

Frankly in a 150-point game I'd consider this army:

4x KV-1 = 128
2x Polish Horsy = 8
1x Thompson = 4
2x Ranger = 10

It will just be a darn fun army to play and frankly devastating to most of those is will face. True the Crocks and Vet Tigers are tough. But not many armies can have it all.

[Kaufschtick]

Tactical skill involves making the most effective use of the terrain and units on the board, setting up favorable exchanges and outmaneuvering your opponent.

If I were a betting man, and I'm not, I've read enough of tragic's posts on here to say, IMHO, that he most certainly knows how to work the business end of his builds.

[polish_horsy]

A champ is a champ. Give him his due and be done with it. I'm certainly not going to say he's not the best. I congratulate him on his complete flattening of his opponents at gencon.