Opening Salvo: Part 9 is up

[Kommandant]

well the title says it all :D

[horacus]

The French guy is nice. The Werewolf Partisans are, meh...

[tragicmishap]

eh, the partisans are ok, but not stellar. There are already better counters to the Command units than partisans, such as having 10 more points of defense 5 infantry on the objective. If you insist, I could pull out Polish Cavalry, BMWs, and Paratroopers for starters.

I'm more interested in that Soviet infantry unit. What is it?

[Panzerkampfwagen]

BT-7 :-) To bad it’s a rare :-(

[tragicmishap]

You're kidding me. What kind of unit was it?

[NorthernRommel]

Will make getting at them Ammo Dumps and Fuel Dumps easier.

But deployment may turn out to be hell with partisans at both ends of the boards now. Deploy your partisans first to keep his partisans away from key areas. Except that the German ones have a retarded range 2 for some unjustified reason. Whats up with crippling the germans all the time anyhow?

[NorthernRommel]

BT-7 :-) To bad it’s a rare :-(

Was a very lightly armored but very fast tank. Should be interesting to see how WOTC portrays it.

[tragicmishap]

Oh. I was interested in the infantry unit, not the tank.

BTW, these two units are from different nations. Set V preview precedent has officially been broken.

[dictator_wanna_be]

BT-7 :-) To bad it’s a rare :-(

Yep thats the BT-7! I cant wait 4 it! But ya it is a rare... it kinda stinks that all the armor in the next set is rare but 4 one... :(

[Photoner Hawkwind]

Oh. I was interested in the infantry unit, not the tank.

BTW, these two units are from different nations. Set V preview precedent has officially been broken.

Degtyarev DP-27 looks like the Soviet infantry unit. Yes both would be soviet units.

[Kommandant]

Oh. I was interested in the infantry unit, not the tank.

BTW, these two units are from different nations. Set V preview precedent has officially been broken.


well the infantry is a DP-27 for Russia, it was a light machine gun

[Krimsonstarr]

Nothing to exciting with the Partisan Units. Unfortunately all of the new Russian armour is RARE! In the very least the BT-7 should be another uncommon like the T-70. The Russian soldier is armed with one of these - Degtyarev DP-27.
http://www.nucleus.com/~richdesn/degtyarev_lmg.jpg
I'm positive it will play like a BAR/BREN. A Maxim would have been nice, but I can certainly live with this. :D

[spite48]

I'm more interested in that Soviet infantry unit. What is it?

I think it is the light machine gunner with a DP-27
Somewhat comparable to the Bren Gunner?

We'll see

edit: oh and I'm not only too late, I've been beaten with a photo and three previous posts on the subject.

[Photoner Hawkwind]

I think it is the light machine gunner with a DP-27
Somewhat comparable to the Bren Gunner?

We'll see

edit: oh and I'm not only too late, I've been beaten with a photo and three previous posts on the subject.

Even the BT-7 has been identified, but great effort. :D

[Lagduf]

The french partisan unit is really nice I think, this unit simply gives france more options and makes them more playable. French partisans will be especially useful for scenarios I think.

Not to impressed by the German partisans, but who knows. I'll probably use them.

[Remember-OWS-]

BT-7 Stats:

Country : Russia
Role : Light Tank
Production Date : April 1938
Manufacturer : Factory No. 183
Number Produced : 5328
Crew : 3
Radio : None
Road Speed : 53 Kilometers per Hour
Rough Speed : 38 Kilometers per Hour
Road Range: 350 Kilometers
Off-Road Range: Unknown Kilometers
Engine Name: M-17 T
Coolant : Water
Cylinders: V-12
Capacity: 46.9 Liters
Power : 450 hp @ 1750 rpm
Power / Weight Ratio : 32.37 hp per tonne
Fuel Capacity: 790 Liters
Length : 5.68 meters
Height : 2.28 meters
Width : 2.43 meters
Weight : 13900 kilograms
Main Gun : 45mm 20K Model 1934 L / 46
Main Gun Ammo : 188
Secondary Weapons : 1x 7.62mm DT (Coaxial - 1200 rounds)
1x 7.62mm DT (Bow - 1200 rounds)
Hull Front (Upper) : 30mm @ Round
Hull Front (Lower) : 22mm @ 72°
Hull Sides (Upper) : 13mm @ 90°
Hull Sides (Lower) : 13mm @ 90°
Hull Rear : 13mm @ 80°
Hull Top : 10mm @ 0°
Hull Bottom : 6mm @ 0°
Turret Front : 15mm @ 78°
Turret Mantlet : 15mm @ Round
Turret Sides : 15mm @ 78°
Turret Rear : 15mm @ 75°
Turret Top : 15mm @ 0°

It can be a more intersting tank than the T-70 if the price is right but with the same little punch... dah! :( :

T-70 Stats:

Country : Russia
Role : Light Tank
Production Date : March 1942
Manufacturer : Factory No. 37
Factory No. 38
Gorki Automobile Factory No.1
Number Produced : 4883
Crew : 2
Radio : 12RT
Road Speed : 45 Kilometers per Hour
Rough Speed : 35 Kilometers per Hour
Road Range: 360 Kilometers
Off-Road Range: 180 Kilometers
Engine Name: Twin GAZ-202
Coolant : Water
Cylinders: Twin I-6
Capacity: 6.96 Liters
Power : 140 hp @ 5600 rpm
Power / Weight Ratio : 15.22 hp per tonne
Fuel Capacity: 440 Liters
Length : 4.3 meters
Height : 2 meters
Width : 2.4 meters
Weight : 9200 kilograms
Main Gun : 45mm 20K Model 1938 L / 46
Main Gun Ammo : 94
Secondary Weapons : 1x 7.62mm DT (Coaxial - 945 rounds)
Hull Front (Upper) : 35mm @ 30°
Hull Front (Lower) : 35mm @ 60°
Hull Sides (Upper) : 15mm @ 90°
Hull Sides (Lower) : 15mm @ 90°
Hull Rear : 25mm @ 50°
Hull Top : 10mm @ 0° & 16°
Hull Bottom : 10mm @ 0°
Turret Front : 35mm @ 55°
Turret Mantlet : 60mm @ Round
Turret Sides : 35mm @ 65°
Turret Rear : 35mm @ 60°
Turret Top : 10mm @ 0°

[Krimsonstarr]

The BT-7 vs. T-70:
speed 5?
3/3 armour?
shouldn't have undermanned
basically the same AI/AT - maybe higher AI - more mg's

[Tesla_Trooper]

Finally!!! I've been waiting for a BT-7 since set II. Here's my guess....

1939
cost-11
speed-5
armour-2/2.....or maybe 3/2 if it's the BT-7M
AI-7/7/6
AT-10/8/7
SA-vanguard
I'm very glad to see it in this set, the soviets really need a good early war tank.

[Krimsonstarr]

Finally!!! I've been waiting for a BT-7 since set II. Here's my guess....

1939
cost-11
speed-5
armour-2/2.....or maybe 3/2 if it's the BT-7M
AI-7/7/6
AT-10/8/7
SA-vanguard
I'm very glad to see it in this set, the soviets really need a good early war tank.

RARE though!!! While very cool, and a pretty common AFV for the $oviet$ have fun getting $everal of the$e :( Vanguard? You may be right. These will allow for more Japanese/Russian battles. :cool:

[Tesla_Trooper]

RARE though!!! While very cool, and a pretty common AFV for the $oviet$ have fun getting $everal of the$e :(


Oh i will get several of these, even if I do have to buy them on ebay. My wife dosn't really need a sweetest day present does she??
It is to bad it's a rare though. :(

[dictator_wanna_be]

Finally!!! I've been waiting for a BT-7 since set II. Here's my guess....

1939
cost-11
speed-5
armour-2/2.....or maybe 3/2 if it's the BT-7M
AI-7/7/6
AT-10/8/7
SA-vanguard
I'm very glad to see it in this set, the soviets really need a good early war tank.

rare it might be a little better maybe 3/3 or best scenario 4/3 :D

[Krimsonstarr]

Oh i will get several of these, even if I do have to buy them on ebay. My wife dosn't really need a sweetest day present does she??
It is to bad it's a rare though. :(

Ignore your wife at your own peril my friend. Would she be upset if she received a couple of booster packs as gifts!?!? lol :D

[Tesla_Trooper]

rare it might be a little better maybe 3/3 or best scenario 4/3 :D

dont forget the 2/2 armour of the rare panzer II though.

[J.L.Robert]

Why does it always seem so difficult for people to include a link to the page on this thread? Not everyone goes to the AAM homepage first; some come to these message boards first.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=ah/aam/ah20061018c


Now, the figures...they don't do a thing for me. They'll be scenario pieces only. The Germans MAY be used like the Communist Partisans, to harass artillery and/or support units.

[Tesla_Trooper]

Ignore your wife at your own peril my friend. Would she be upset if she received a couple of booster packs as gifts!?!? lol :D

She'll be fine. Last year she recieved a large chunk of money. She bought herself a $2,100 purse and bought me a pair of $25 shoes. :mad: :mad: She owes me one.

[Tesla_Trooper]

yeah, I'm not to excited about the partisans either. They seem ok, average at best, but my only opponent uses almost nothing but tanks so partisans are preatty useless for me.

[Sheppard1972]

Owes you one more like $2,075. Ha,Ha. :p

[dictator_wanna_be]

dont forget the 2/2 armour of the rare panzer II though.

Uggg... u just gave me nightmairs...

[boersma8]

Hmmm, partisans don't add any new mechanics or SAs. A preview of units that did would've been nicer. Further, the limited range: I guess it's because the weapon seems to be a Schmeisser. Shame it doesn't have "covering fire" then...Hope the new Russian inf. will have it!

[Sturmgrenadier]

Except that the German ones have a retarded range 2 for some unjustified reason. Whats up with crippling the germans all the time anyhow?
You don’t forget it’s an american game, did you?

[bresh]

Im kinda dispointed that a partisan unit gets better attack dice than italian infantry & german panzgrenadier.

And better defense than german fortress defenders.

IT's not like those partisans where better equipped.

Makes me think those other units where wrong statted...... :(

Regards
Bresh

[FSSF]

bresh:
"Im kinda dispointed that a partisan unit gets better attack dice than italian infantry & german panzgrenadier.

And better defense than german fortress defenders.

IT's not like those partisans where better equipped.

Makes me think those other units where wrong statted...... :(

Regards
Bresh"

You bring good points.
I too am disappointed about both Partisans.
They look as if they were developped by an inept intern at WOTC.
Let's compate it to the original Communist Partisans...

Werwolf/French Resistance is +1 point. Doesn't seem much difference. Just one more point. But at this small level it does. Let's say you have 9 points left in your army, you can still fill it out with 3 communist Partisans, but only two of the new partisans. For that extra point you want to get your money's worth.

The French Resistance seem to get it: +1/+1 AI. Pretty good. But he loses Urban Combat. No big whoop. But that WOTC intern should read more books and learn that a unit for a historical game should reflect what this unit was all about. Partisans where not as strong as veteran infantry (The Communist partisan was well designed that way), there is no reason, no basis for this unit to be stronger than Communist Partisans just because they got more publicity during and after WWII. Partisans where about strike and fade, blending in their environment. French Partisans in particular, they were often called maquisard. They should have kept Urban Combat plus get Forest Camouflage or Elusive or somekind of terrain related SA, AND get Demolition.

The Werwolf loses Urban Combat (ok), Close Assault (why???) and get +2 at short range but Limited Range 2. Again what is the basis for them to lose Close Assault and get Limited Range 2? Werwolf were fanatics. When the Russians were pushing them back to Germany, every german soldier only wanted to retreat. These guys volunteered to stay behind Russian lines and fight them to slow them down! I don't know if this warrants Ruthless, but they should get some kind of Fanatical SA. I just hope the Fallschirmjagers were not developped by that same stupid intern or I will be very ******.

[mdescalzo]

You don’t forget it’s an american game, did you?

I don't see how 300,000,000 people spread across a country the size of the US can be at fault for bad stats on a game piece. Stick to blaming WotC and leave the rest of us out of it.

[Cruizin2000]

There were more BT-7s produced compared to the T-70 and it's a "rare"?!?!?! I'll bet the same intern did that one too. Probably started with Set I's T-34.

Too bad this game is collectible and not sold in country sets or something similiar. This game would be more of a hit if that was the case. Heroscape has it right - easy rules, beautiful pieces, excellent price, ever evolving map, no errata, and NOT collectible. Perfect!!

C2000

[Predator666]

I think the partisans are cool. They are much cheaper then a bmw or cavalry and can set up on any map edge. That means your opponent coule either put it in the middle of the map, making it easier for other things to attack, or put it on an edge and be attacked first turn by partisans. They are both pretty cool though and cost as much as a light mortar. I think they are awsome and glad that we get them in this set. I loved the french resistance and werewolf sounds cool.


Also I agree that the French should have gotten some kind of Forest or Urban combat ability. Because they would hit and run and the best way to show that in an infantry is some kinda hyped up cover roll. I also think the Werewolf should have gotten a CA of 4 at least. I'll still use them though because my opponents won't rly see it coming.

[ayeblackbart]

Don't think of the partisans as straight up fighters because they don't match up but think of how you will deploy them to take out ammo dumps, etc. Everything can be made useful with the right plan. Some had this same idea way back up thread. Remember if WOTC makes stronger more powerful units all the time we get people griping about power creep so they can't win for losing.

[Richter von Manthofen]

I won't jump on the US-game discussion - you know what I think... ;)

Also the discussion on pafrtisans is a bit far fetched :D

I think both units compared with the Soviet Partisan are OK.

Soviet Partisans were numbered many and quite good equipped (AFAIK).

Def 4/4 ATT 7/5/- 2/-/- Partisan SA, CA 5 and Urban Combat for three points is reasonable

French Partisan

Att +1/+1 - Urban Combat +1 cost is just within the Powerrange as the game tends to cost better att values higher even with the loss of a SA - For Historical Reasons the French Resistance fighter should have Urban combat though...

The Werewolf is somewhat disappointing

+2/0 att - Urban Combat - CA 5 AND a negative SA for the same cost as a Resistance Fighter is bad....

Historical otherwise the Werewolfs were more assassins than combattants, so the figure seems correct in its abilities.

[mdescalzo]

Historical otherwise the Werewolfs were more assassins than combattants, so the figure seems correct in its abilities.

Maybe as assassins they should have gotten additional dice or +1 on rolls against officers. That might make a good house rule. Otherwise, they're a bit weak for the cost as compared to the French partisan.

[Autarch]

The Werewolf is somewhat disappointing

+2/0 att - Urban Combat - CA 5 AND a negative SA for the same cost as a Resistance Fighter is bad....

Historical otherwise the Werewolfs were more assassins than combattants, so the figure seems correct in its abilities.

I agree RvM, with these stats it should have been costed at 3.

As an assassin, it should have an attack of 11 at short range for the same cost, or better yet, the same stats with an Officer Hunter SA (roll 2 extra dice).

Come to think of it, the costing for the Frenchman is odd. Compared to the Communist, he LOSES CA 5 in exchange for +1/+1/- and one more point of cost? Seems like it should have been a wash.

FSSF, I think I need to apply for that interns job.

And unless my video card is on the fritz, is the Russian tank in Panzer Gray?
Lol, guess WotC got a good deal on a tanker full of gray paint.

Nice to finally have it for early war battles, though.

[FSSF]

I think the partisans are cool. They are much cheaper then a bmw or cavalry and can set up on any map edge.

The BMW is 1 point more, but (Poland's) Cavalrymen and Cossack Cavalrymen cost the same as the two new Partisans units at 4 points.

[FSSF]

Come to think of it, the costing for the Frenchman is odd. Compared to the Communist, he LOSES CA 5 in exchange for +1/+1/- and one more point of cost? Seems like it should have been a wash.

Wrong SA my friend.
French Resistance Partisan doesn't lose CA 5 (which is a good thing too), he lost Urban Combat if you compare it to the Communist Partisan.
The Werwolf Partisan is the one that lost all Close Assault attack ( :mad: )

[boersma8]

If you ask me the reasons for the partisan units being stronger than other similar units are twofold:

1.) You have to make stronger units if you want people to buy into new sets

2.) Many of the existing units are too weak against def. 5 infantry which now dominate competitive play.

[Joisey]

These partisan units are a classic example of power creep.

[mdescalzo]

FSSF, I think I need to apply for that interns job.


...or they could save money: can the intern and read their own forums.

[Cruizin2000]

These partisan units are a classic example of power creep.

I hate power creep!! Leave that crap for tourney players/power gamers/deli workers.

BTW, isn't it about time that Mons lets us know about the Spitschmitt correction? It's been 5 1/2 months now.

C2000

[polish_horsy]

BTW...

I'm not too impressed with the BT-7 figure. I think it is just fine for an uncommon, which it should have been. You can take the Puma and converted captured Bren and whatever else that was not a battlefield staple... make them rare if you want but give us uncommon AFV that appeared in large numbers on the battlefield. Especially a 12-point unit (or maybe 15) like I expect a BT-7 to be costed at. I would want to field 3-4 of them in a Barbarossa battle and now I can't. Ohh great but I can field a big army full of Pumas and Werewolves. Which is... uh not very historical to say the least.

[polish_horsy]

I hate power creep!! Leave that crap for tourney players/power gamers/deli workers.

BTW, isn't it about time that Mons lets us know about the Spitschmitt correction? It's been 5 1/2 months now.

C2000

He never said he'd get back to us... he never said they would actually DO anything. He said something like (paraphasing here) "it would take about 6 months to correct". That is a completely non-commital way to stall people.

[Cruizin2000]

BTW...

I'm not too impressed with the BT-7 figure. I think it is just fine for an uncommon, which it should have been. You can take the Puma and converted captured Bren and whatever else that was not a battlefield staple... make them rare if you want but give us uncommon AFV that appeared in large numbers on the battlefield. Especially a 12-point unit (or maybe 15) like I expect a BT-7 to be costed at. I would want to field 3-4 of them in a Barbarossa battle and now I can't. Ohh great but I can field a big army full of Pumas and Werewolves. Which is... uh not very historical to say the least.

It may not be "historical", but it is "fun". You're not having "fun"? ;)

C2000

[Cruizin2000]

He never said he'd get back to us... he never said they would actually DO anything. He said something like (paraphasing here) "it would take about 6 months to correct". That is a completely non-commital way to stall people.


A Spitschmitt in a stall?

C2000

[Grenzewolf]

Kinda bummed about the lack luster Werewolves not having a CA but in all fairness their performance was less than stelar due to poor organization and lack of supplies. Propoganda greatly exceeded the Werewolf organization and its accomplishments.

[polish_horsy]

I am having fun but I think someone missed the boat on a few key descisions about uncommon/rare AFV. There are more Pumas in my tackle box then those that fought in the eastern front. But I have 2 T-34/76s... I expect I'll own 1 or 2 BT-7s. And those appeared in the thousands on the battlefield. This is not just a minor issue.

And I am also a little annoyed about infantry. One million Romanian infantrymen fought in Russia and we have no figure. But I have Werewolf Partisans which were more myth than anything substantial and have no place in a tactical game. These were (supposed to be) Alpine Redoubt units which never actualy materialized into anything more than a few thugs.

[Cruizin2000]

For those questioning (myself included) the rarity of certain units, here are some useful links:

This link explains rarity.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=ah/aam/ah20060707c

And a bonus preview:
This link explains the steps to making a A&AM T-35.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=ah/aam/ah20060721d

:cool:

Their explanations are crap. Look at the T-34/76. How many parts is made from and how many paint ops are on it? Now look at at the Pnzr III. Not much difference except for the uncommon Pnzr III has red/white numbers on the turret. That's more "rare" to me. The T-34/76 could've atleast had a red star on the turret. How about the Te-Ke compared to the Ha-Go? There's more color ops on the Te-Ke than the Ha-Go. Their system just doen't make sence - just like the Chewbacca Defence.

C2000

[TheCygnysGuardian]

Their explanations are crap. Look at the T-34/76. How many parts is made from and how many paint ops are on it? Now look at at the Pnzr III. Not much difference except for the uncommon Pnzr III has red/white numbers on the turret. That's more "rare" to me. The T-34/76 could've atleast had a red star on the turret. How about the Te-Ke compared to the Ha-Go? There's more color ops on the Te-Ke than the Ha-Go. Their system just doen't make sence - just like the Chewbacca Defence.

C2000

Don't shoot the messenger...

[Cruizin2000]

Don't shoot the messenger...

Don't worry, the safety is on. :)

C2000

[Bobsalt]

I hate power creep!! Leave that crap for tourney players/power gamers/deli workers.
Take a look around the boards. If the threads of the last few months are any indication that’s about all who’s left playing the game now. With that in mind it makes perfect sense for WotC to proceed with power creep to cater to those people. The historically-minded players are either gone at this point or are using HHR or Der Leiter’s rules, in which case such units will be modified back into reality anyway, so it doesn’t matter what the official stats for them are.

BTW, isn't it about time that Mons lets us know about the Spitschmitt correction? It's been 5 1/2 months now.

C2000
Dare to dream. If you recall, Mons never said they were actually going to do anything to fix the Ubermarine Schpitfire – all he said was that it would be a process of at least 6 months or more to do anything about it. There was nothing in his statement concerning commitment to do anything. I would be extremely surprised if this is ever rectified. The players who were the most vocal on this issue were the historical gamers, just about all of whom have bailed on the game at this point. The powergamer types for the most part weren’t bothered by this – their only concern is whether the piece will help them win, not whether it is actually correct. At this point I think it’s a dead issue. The people who most want it have dropped the game (or at least certainly aren’t posting on the boards anymore), fixing this isn’t going to suddenly bring them back in light of all the other problems, and the powergamer types for the most part don’t care. Taking all of that into account there’s really no financial incentive for WotC to ever correct it.

These partisan units are a classic example of power creep.
Unfortunately it’s the hand we’ve been dealt. I do have what I think is an interesting idea for the German one though for HHR when we begin discussing Set V.

If you ask me the reasons for the partisan units being stronger than other similar units are twofold:

1.) You have to make stronger units if you want people to buy into new sets
Or here’s a thought – you could just try releasing well balanced, properly priced units, make the miniatures of good quality, and let the game prosper on its own merits. The historical types were buying this game by the case so that we could have at least a platoon of each vehicle so we could have realistic OOB’s ala Flames of War. I know the powergamer types buy by the case also, but how many cases does it take to get enough SS Pz Grenadiers for a 100-point force? Some of the historical guys on here were buying 5-7 cases of each release. Because of the desire for historical OOB’s a lot of us are buying multiples of units no one else wants. For example, look at the Pz IIC. No one wants this unit because it’s useless in a competitive build. But I ended up with 6 of them so that I could field a historically accurate platoon for early war games. Pieces that the powergamer would never want would be bought in quantity by historical gamers. The large number of Russian vehicles in this set would have caused a lot of historically-minded gamers to buy several cases.

I think in the long run more money could have been made by catering to players wanting a more historically accurate game than to the powergamers. A lot of historical gamers for the most part ignored the 100-point limit and were playing 300-500 (or more) point games routinely. Personally, my friends and I never played a 100-point game after I got more units when Set I was released – 200 was the standard, then 300, then 350…You’ve got to spend a whole lot more money getting enough units for platoons at that level versus just getting enough uber units for a 100-point tournament game. Of course, maybe that’s why we’re starting to see 200-point tournaments – to encourage powergamers to buy more uber units for the larger forces needed.

2.) Many of the existing units are too weak against def. 5 infantry which now dominate competitive play.
Yeah, like they said – power creep. The offensive stats on some of the newer units make no sense when compared to units released earlier – unless of course you’re tweaking them in order to make them a specific counter to overpowered/underpriced units that are included in every competitive build.

[Krimsonstarr]

Their explanations are crap. Look at the T-34/76. How many parts is made from and how many paint ops are on it? Now look at at the Pnzr III. Not much difference except for the uncommon Pnzr III has red/white numbers on the turret. That's more "rare" to me. The T-34/76 could've atleast had a red star on the turret. How about the Te-Ke compared to the Ha-Go? There's more color ops on the Te-Ke than the Ha-Go. Their system just doen't make sence - just like the Chewbacca Defence.

C2000

I concur whole-heartedly - crap. lol :D Whatever they (WotC) may say in their "explanation," they are in this to make money and not to offer people products out of the goodness of their hearts. In a perverse way it almost makes sense from a marketing perspective - the T-34 being a prime example as (IMO anyway) it is not a awesome miniature by any stretch of the imagination - take one of the most common tanks of WWII and make it RARE. People will need/want these as a foundation to build their army. To get a few of these they will undoubtedly have to spend a fair bit of money. Anyway I'm sure not breaking any new ground here. Lots of RARE new Soviets armour to look forward to :rolleyes: . . . my wallet is already anticipating the pain :eek:

[Cruizin2000]

I have about 2-5 of each rare. What I do is take 5 Shermans and add a Jackson or whatever as an "asset" to the platoon. It's cheaper than trying to buy 5 Jacksons.

I agree with you, Bobsalt, about the balance of the game. Wizards should've released each piece in a balanced way so that everyone would have an equal chance to use that piece to their benefit whether you're a historical casual gamer or a cheese building tourney gamer. Let each type "solve the puzzle" of the piece.

After reading these forums and hearing from other players, it seems that Wizards games are all about cheesy builds for tourney players. These games are designed to be played at ORIGINS or GENCON or whatever place is offering a large scale playing format. The historical gamer just happend to find out about this and went for it - like us.

I'm not holding my breath about getting a correct Spitfire - it won't happen unless we "buy it again".

To get 20 SSPGs, legit, you need to buy 5 cases - 4 per case.

I've been trying hard to get my gaming circle to play games that are higher than 100 points but so far, no luck. Supposedly we're doing a large game on 10/29 - we'll see.

Is it 11/10 yet???

C2000

[Arontje]

Is it 11/10 yet???

C2000

Yes it is even 18/10 already :p

Here in Holland we do the day first then the month.

[Cruizin2000]

Yes it is even 18/10 already :p

Here in Holland we do the day first then the month.


I was brought up in a German household and had to break myself of doing the dates like that. And then had to learn to write in cursive. Ever see German in cursive??? I still print to this day unless I sign something like a check or a delivery notice. :)

C2000

[Muenchausen]

I think in the long run more money could have been made by catering to players wanting a more historically accurate game than to the powergamers. A lot of historical gamers for the most part ignored the 100-point limit and were playing 300-500 (or more) point games routinely. Personally, my friends and I never played a 100-point game after I got more units when Set I was released – 200 was the standard, then 300, then 350…

It's obvious they missed the mark when deciding who to market to. I believe the target was supposed to be young teens. If this board is an accurate representation of the market, the majority of players were in their 30's, that's according to the last pole. I think I'll start a new pole to see what the age group and style of play is for the remaining posters.

I definately fit into the historic gamer catagory. I don't raise hell with AH about correcting all the problems because I believe the solution they'll come up with is to drop the game. I don't want to see that happen. I wanted a miniatures game for years and now that it's here. I'm not willing to contribute to it's demise. And right now the alternative to AAM power build is FOW and after painting some 300-400 15mm Napoleonics, FOW isn't that appealing.

[Cruizin2000]

Sadly, this game will end. I'm in no hurry for that to happen but it will. They can stop making the game but there's no need for us to quit playing. Plus, with the money that I've invested in it, I'm going to be buried with mine.

C2000

[Bobsalt]

Their explanations are crap. Look at the T-34/76. How many parts is made from and how many paint ops are on it? Now look at at the Pnzr III. Not much difference except for the uncommon Pnzr III has red/white numbers on the turret. That's more "rare" to me. The T-34/76 could've atleast had a red star on the turret. How about the Te-Ke compared to the Ha-Go? There's more color ops on the Te-Ke than the Ha-Go. Their system just doen't make sence - just like the Chewbacca Defence.

C2000
You’re right, all of WotC’s explanations for rarity are absolute crap. The article they came out with a few months ago to “explain” this was absolutely unbelievable. I’d forgotten just how much hilarious that article was until I clicked on the link and read it again. It was just as funny (or sad, depending on your viewpoint) the second time around.

Quoting from that article, “The three biggest factors that determine whether a miniature is rare or not are its size, how many pieces it’s made from, and its number of deco ops.”

You read something like that and you just don’t even know where to start. If size is one of the criteria, then I’m guessing the French Renault should have been what – 3 per package? If the number of deco ops matters, then I guess they got the Puma and T-34/76 reversed? Or the Renault and the T-70? These explanations might hold water if there was a consistent difference in quality between rare and uncommon vehicles, but the truth is there isn’t any difference. Several of the uncommons (Puma, T-70, Pz IIIF, Sd Kfz 222) in fact look markedly better than many of the rares (Lee, Carro Armato, Ha Go, T-34/76, etc.). The factors cited in the article may be of some secondary impact, but I do not believe for a moment that they are the primary considerations.

The truth is, folks, rarity is ultimately based on one thing only – how to maximize sales of each set.

The reason for some units being rare is obvious. The Tiger is an iconic piece for Germany if there ever was one, and makes a great choice to be a rare. The King Tiger isn’t so well-known to the average Joe, but because of its stats is another good choice for a rare. Popular and/or powerful pieces are good choices to be rare, since everyone will want them, and theoretically will buy multiple boosters in the hopes of getting them. So how, then, to explain the Renault, Ha Go, or R35 as a rare? Well, just as you want several of the really good and/or desirable pieces to be rare, so you also want a few clunkers. Consider – if every set has all really good rares, you’ll quickly run out of interesting rares to model, and you’ll see a drop off in sales of later sets that don’t contain units that are as “sexy” as the previous releases. If a set has 6 really good and 6 not-so-good rares, the idea is that you spread out the good pieces over several sets, and you keep people buying in the hopes that the next booster the open will have one of the good rares. It’s all about selling as much as you can. Think about it – it’s the same reason that an artist releases a new album..er..CD (sorry, showing my age there for a moment) that has two hits and 8 songs that are totally forgettable. If you have ten songs that are likely to be hits, you can have an unbelievable album – or, you can spread them out, put 2 hits each on 5 CD’s, and sell many more units.

This is the true reason why the T-34’s are rare, and why there will never be an uncommon T-34. As the workhorse tank of the USSR in WWII, this tank was going to be in high demand, as anyone wanting to play Germany vs. Russia battles was going to want the T-34’s; it’s almost hard to imagine such a battle without T-34’s. The original base set included a Sherman and a Pz IVG as uncommons, so with a couple of boosters the odds were you could play US vs. Germany, especially if the boosters included another of the uncommon US or German tanks. If you wanted to play Germany vs. Russia, though, the chances were you were going to have to fork out quite a bit more in order to be able to build a reasonable Russian force. Looking at the T-34/76, it’s obvious that under WotC’s “official” criteria it doesn’t qualify under any of them as a rare. No, the reason the T-34/76 is a rare is because of one thing - $$$. And you know what? I actually don’t have a problem with that.

The idea of designing and producing a game is to make money. Period. Yes, it’s nice to have a good design, well done rules, etc., but in the final analysis the game is merely a vehicle for moving plastic. Now, I may not agree with some of the choices WotC has made as to what units to make rare, but I understand why they made (most) of the choices they did. Their decision to make the T-34’s rare makes perfect sense under their business model. This time last year when T-34’s were going for over $25 apiece on eBay, a lot of guys bought several cases of boosters in the hopes of getting T-34’s. This is exactly what you want a choice of a unit as a rare to do – to cause people to buy more boosters in the hopes of getting that unit they want. I’ve certainly been a vocal critic of WotC and of many of the idiotic things they’ve done with A&AM, but this is one thing I have no issue with. Consider – if you were in their place, and if by doing something like this you could generate say, a 5% increase in sales, would you do it? Of course you would. The issue of rarity is one thing about which WotC owes us no apologies – except for perhaps not just coming out and admitting this in their otherwise very amusing article.

[cannonfodder]

Well then, back on topic.
Has anyone but me noticed that the French Resistence fighter doesn't have the ability to destroy bridges? Wasn't this what the actual resistance did? Aren't they famous for it? I was expecting an ability that let them blow up bridges at least as well as Royal Engineers.
Am I a victim of false history? They did blow up bridges and roads and runways didn't they? The unit, as posted, is just another infantry. That wierds me out too. As far as I knew the resistance fighters never fought as front line soldiers. They worked behind the lines in their homeland behind the backs of the invading Germans. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Cruizin2000]

Well then, back on topic.
Has anyone but me noticed that the French Resistence fighter doesn't have the ability to destroy bridges? Wasn't this what the actual resistance did? Aren't they famous for it? I was expecting an ability that let them blow up bridges at least as well as Royal Engineers.
Am I a victim of false history? They did blow up bridges and roads and runways didn't they? The unit, as posted, is just another infantry. That wierds me out too. As far as I knew the resistance fighters never fought as front line soldiers. They worked behind the lines in their homeland behind the backs of the invading Germans. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


Don't forget about cutting rail lines and capturing German officers. Ever play Twilight War? That was a fun game based of French Resistance.

C2000

[cannonfodder]

Haven't even heard of it but I'll probably look it up now. It's not a collectible game is it? I don't have the bucks to throw at another one of these.

[Cruizin2000]

Haven't even heard of it but I'll probably look it up now. It's not a collectible game is it? I don't have the bucks to throw at another one of these.

No, not a collectible game. TSR made it and it's probably OOP. You can probably find it at conventions on some on-line dealers. Try Evil-Bay too.

C2000

[mattertoenergy]

On the topic of partisans.

I feel that partisans could have been better handled with a special set of rules for "partisan/raiding" scenarios instead of just having them appear on any board edge. From what history I know, partisans rarely fought in actual battles, but mostly engaged in sabotage operations. A set of special rules could encourage this, but of course, it would be difficult than to incorporate partisans into tournaments.

Secondly, I'm getting tired of seeing new infantry units for the major nations in every set. While it's nice to see some variation between units which were very different (101st vs. regular U.S. army), I still don't need more than a couple of different infantry for each nation, especially when Romania still doesn't have regular infantry. I'd rather see these slots go to filling out TO&E's.

[Virgil]

Im not to upset with the German Partisan as long as they have one, I like the diversity of the game. They call the partisans counter units to the support units, but when you think about it, any unit is probably better than partisans at getting support units.

[TheCygnysGuardian]

Well then, back on topic.
Has anyone but me noticed that the French Resistence fighter doesn't have the ability to destroy bridges? Wasn't this what the actual resistance did? Aren't they famous for it? I was expecting an ability that let them blow up bridges at least as well as Royal Engineers.
Am I a victim of false history? They did blow up bridges and roads and runways didn't they? The unit, as posted, is just another infantry. That wierds me out too. As far as I knew the resistance fighters never fought as front line soldiers. They worked behind the lines in their homeland behind the backs of the invading Germans. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You're right. My uncle said that they 'blew up whatever they wanted.' However, Unks is constantly suffering from momentary lapses of reason. Or as we call it, PFS. Pink Floyd Syndrome. ;)
I was expecting the FRF to at least have Urban Combat, or a stronger CA. Or Bridge Demoliton like you said.

[Predator666]

In reply to Polish_Horsy's post....

I'm pretty sure the Romanians only gave 300,000 soldiers to the cause of invading Russian, Hungary gave them 200,000 soldiers and Slovakia gave them 20,000 soldiers for the Eastern Front and the Italians made the Eighth army. But anyway back on topic.

I don't really mind the new partisans. If you don't like them then make certain year restrictions. I plan on making a 1945 game. SU vs GE. I'm ganna let the SU have twice-three times the points the axis have and both will prolly have objectives that involve the new support units. I like them and plan on getting a lot of each. If you don't want them, then I'll take em.

[lozmoid]

By the way, did anybody else notice that the two new partisan units are just of the type 'Soldier'; not 'Soldier - Partisan'. This could be another serious mistake from WotC. They maybe described as partisans on the card's unit name, but from where I'm sitting, they just look like regular Soldiers...

[tragicmishap]

The SA is all that matters anyway, unless there's some special SA coming out in the future that only affects units with the Partisan subtype. They could easily circumvent that by just saying it affects those with the Partisan SAs.

[Autarch]

Wrong SA my friend.
French Resistance Partisan doesn't lose CA 5 (which is a good thing too), he lost Urban Combat if you compare it to the Communist Partisan.
The Werwolf Partisan is the one that lost all Close Assault attack ( :mad: )

Oops, I got my Louis mixed up with my Hans.

The historical types were buying this game by the case so that we could have at least a platoon of each vehicle so we could have realistic OOB’s ala Flames of War.

I used to buy six cases per new set plus singles. Now I'm down to two plus singles to complete the set.

[Bobsalt]

I used to buy six cases per new set plus singles. Now I'm down to two plus singles to complete the set.
And I'm down from 2 cases plus several boosters at a local store before they stopped carrying them to zero, though I do still pick up stuff from eBay. I won't be buying Set V - I'll just try and get what I want from eBay. Or not.

[Kaufschtick]

Oops, I got my Louis mixed up with my Hans.

Do that more than once and you're playing with it! :eek: :D

[TheJudge]

The new units are awful. I would ever only use 1 German partisan and only to spawn a hero. Im going to be ****** each time I open a booster and get one of these wastes of plastic. The scenarios they are used in better be really, really good because they will never see the light of day otherwise. I hate useless units.

[Grenzewolf]

The new units are awful. I would ever only use 1 German partisan and only to spawn a hero. Im going to be ****** each time I open a booster and get one of these wastes of plastic. The scenarios they are used in better be really, really good because they will never see the light of day otherwise. I hate useless units.

I agree in part. Set III for me was my nemisis. I mean "Just how many spotters do you need!?" Example: The disaplined spotter is a good looking model but but with that range finder in his face Im very limited in even customization. Set IV balanced out pretty nice for case distrabution however.

I think I'll initialy buy a single case of set V and then decide on further cases or Boosters and Singles.

[Grenzewolf]

And back on topic.......... I actualy was hoping instead of getting Werewolfs we could get something along the order of Skorzeny's commando's (ie.. Battle of the Bulge M.P.'s) with an SA that would give you a chance on a roll of 6 to replace a single opposing non-Leader/artillery infantry with with a commando. I suppose you could House rule it for the Werewolfs however. Gotta love thoes sunglasses though. (grin)

[Twentecable]

Bresh"[/I]

Werwolf were fanatics. When the Russians were pushing them back to Germany, every german soldier only wanted to retreat. These guys volunteered to stay behind Russian lines and fight them to slow them down! I don't know if this warrants Ruthless, but they should get some kind of Fanatical SA. [/QUOTE]

Well I agree on most of your ideas but please remeber Werewolfs never really existed and just a small number of those bands roamed around. It is more a propaganda trick like the Alpenfestung.

[polish_horsy]

and just how much did the Werwolves really do? can anyone point to any significant military accomplishment they had? anything? anything at all?

[Richter von Manthofen]

Nope - no accomplishmet - the most important confirmed kill was the mayor of (liberated) Aachen.

[polish_horsy]

Well obviously game balance (read mirroring of units) trumped historicaly accurate here. What's new. Maybe they though the Otto Skorzeny kind of unit would be too magical... powers of enemy conversion. I agree. I'd have made fun of that unit as well.

[Grenzewolf]

Nope - no accomplishmet - the most important confirmed kill was the mayor of (liberated) Aachen.

I think Skorzeny's boys actualy did that but they threw credit to the werewolfs for propoganda value.

Still you gotta wonder how much of their accomplishments would even have been recorded, espescialy on the Eastern front(Allies had an effective propoganda/antipropoganda machine too). Dont know how many active Werewolfs survived. As fanatics I would imagine the realy hardcore ones went down with the Reich.

[Lettische_Scooterist]

I haven't read much about the werewolves, but following WW II, in the baltic states (North Eastern Europe) there were several partisan groups that continued to fight the Soviet occupation up to 1956. I think Lithuania had the highest number - somewhere in the tens of thousands - of anti-Soviet partisans.

[Twentecable]

I dont remeber the exact title of the book. But in it it was stated that the werewolfs did nothing more than making crosses on houses of germans who wanted to surrender and had some pestering actions in occupied terrotority.

They have no military accomplishment at all...

[Oberst Hermann]

Occasionally people incorrectly refer to Skorzeny's commandos as 'Werewolves'. The name is properly attributed to small bands of partisan fighters loayal to the Nazi regime, primarily in the Baltic states and along the Eastern Front while Skorzeny's troops served as a unit almost exclusively in the Ardennes.

[Lettische_Scooterist]

Actually, the partisans in the Baltic states weren't loyal to the Nazi regime at all, but rather to their old indepenent countries that had been occupied by the Soviets in 1940 following the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. They didn't have anything to do with the Werewolves...

[greyfox]

In reply to Polish_Horsy's post....

I'm pretty sure the Romanians only gave 300,000 soldiers to the cause of invading Russian, Hungary gave them 200,000 soldiers and Slovakia gave them 20,000 soldiers for the Eastern Front and the Italians made the Eighth army. But anyway back on topic.

I don't really mind the new partisans. If you don't like them then make certain year restrictions. I plan on making a 1945 game. SU vs GE. I'm ganna let the SU have twice-three times the points the axis have and both will prolly have objectives that involve the new support units. I like them and plan on getting a lot of each. If you don't want them, then I'll take em.


The Rumanians put about 2 million men under arms in WWII, out of a population of 19 million. They suffered casualties of almost 1 million. 270k of those casualties occurred fighting against the Germans in 1944-45. This was the largest contribution made by any minor nation in the Axis cause (as large as the Finns, Hungarians, Slovakians, Bulgarians and Baltic countries TOGETHER) and close to the largest made by any minor country to the Allied cause, and compares favorably to the total Italian contribution. 10% or more of the troops on the Eastern Front most of the time were Rumanian. The highest ranking Rumanian general killed was a division commander killed while leading a bayonet charge trying to hold the line at Stalingrad. The only country in WWII more badmouthed with less cause than Rumania is Poland, whose citizens fought for 6 years AFTER their country had been conquered. So, yes, any game purporting to show the Eastern Front should at least have some Rumanian infantry. (No, I'm not Rumanian)

[fifleche]

Polish Horsy, no matter their -real- historical accomplishments, and yes, no matter the stats they decided to give to this largely hypothetical unit, as is it is unplayable, because it is worse than units of the same category, costing the same amount or less...

That's my gripe with this one.

With Close Assault or something...

[Predator666]

greyfox--may I ask were you got your information. Everywhere I look either says 300,000 or doesn't say at all. I would like to learn more about the axis nations.

[Twentecable]

Occasionally people incorrectly refer to Skorzeny's commandos as 'Werewolves'. The name is properly attributed to small bands of partisan fighters loayal to the Nazi regime, primarily in the Baltic states and along the Eastern Front while Skorzeny's troops served as a unit almost exclusively in the Ardennes.

Not completely true Werewolfs were small bands of partizans espacially active in Bavaria and Thuhringen

[bresh]

Im not saying the new partisans are bad, they might add some flavour to some combats. But making a non-regular unit better equipped thats just bad judgement.

They could easy had come up with more fun abilities, keep aprox same attack dice from the russian, but add camuflage in hills,cities,forests. For my part I had chosen french partisans to be camuflaged in city.
Instead they chose to show how bad statted some units at the start of A&A-minis. (Ref, Italian Inf+Panzer Grenadier), to mention some.


Regards
Bresh

[Richter von Manthofen]

The Werewolves will make decent anti Fuel/ammo dump troops as the self destruct SA of those. Paras are likely to expensive to waste for such purposes. Alternatively they make good spawning units for heros...

[polish_horsy]

ah yes. spawning of a superhero from a Werewolf. this is not a magic game...

[Richter von Manthofen]

ah yes. spawning of a superhero from a Werewolf. this is not a magic game...

No, but its magic in the game... :D

[VonMephit]

As far as the partisans are concerned, I like them. I think they made the German partisan as powerfull as they should, read about them, their actions were limited to assassinating collaborating Germans and taking out the odd Allied soldier. I am interested in what they are going to do with the DP-27, I wonder since they are previewing it it will be different than the BAR or Bren?

[Major Adler]

why is the DP-27 soldier wearing post WWII camo...and the BT-7 is colored grey...

the same reason the Corsair is Korean War and the Polish infantry has a red beret...

poor QA and research...

my advise is to make the move to FOW...

[mdescalzo]

why is the DP-27 soldier wearing post WWII camo...and the BT-7 is colored grey...

the same reason the Corsair is Korean War and the Polish infantry has a red beret...

poor QA and research...

my advise is to make the move to FOW...

"No time to paint minis..."

Besides, it's still fun. As soon as it isn't, eBay will be there for me.

[Major Adler]

make the move to FOW by purchasing the rules books...and use your A&A minis...and when this game goes belly up...A&A minis will be on the on-line auction sites by the lots...cheap...

[Raptor]

As far as the partisans are concerned, I like them. I think they made the German partisan as powerfull as they should, read about them, their actions were limited to assassinating collaborating Germans and taking out the odd Allied soldier. I am interested in what they are going to do with the DP-27, I wonder since they are previewing it it will be different than the BAR or Bren?

I'm hoping the DP-27, with its vastly superior magazine capacity to the Bren & BAR, will be differentm maybe with the same attack numbers as a BAR but with double shot.