Some Comparisons...

[mikoyan]

Some people like to point out that the FJ's held out for four months at Monte Cassino. It seems that those bumbling Americans held out for longer than that at Corregidor. Hell, the folks holding Bataan held out for that long despite not being resupplied or having enough food and having to contend with the various inflictions of the jungle.

[Surfer_Sam]

Yeh I don't see anything special about the FJ. Only that they were the only paratroopers

[Predator666]

Well its probably the fact that they were either outnumbered or out supplied/outnumbered. I'm not sure what the reason is. I didn't even know that FJ's were the ones at Cassino until a week or two ago.

[Fallschirmjager]

You got to admit, though, the FJs did put up a heck of a fight.

[Predator666]

Oh yea they did. Also as far as I know they weren't planning on falling back into the Monastary or w/e until it was bombed making it a perfect defensive position.

[Fallschirmjager]

Or, pulled a few tricks out of there hat, like bring up a full armored division when we wern't looking.

[Autarch]

In essence the Fallschirmjager of the 1st Parachute Division were not defeated in the battle of Monastery. The German high command decided not to defend their flank because they thought the terrain was impassable. Moroccan mountain troops proved this assumption incorrect. The FJ withdrew because their supply line was threatened.

[Kommandant]

In essence the Fallschirmjager of the 1st Parachute Division were not defeated in the battle of Monastery. The German high command decided not to defend their flank because they thought the terrain was impassable. Moroccan mountain troops proved this assumption incorrect. The FJ withdrew because their supply line was threatened.


omg!! i think that your one of the few people that know that on these
boards :eek: lol

but seriously i think that we are one of maybe 5 people here that know that

the reason why i know that is because of the military channel, they had
a special on the battle of Monte Cassino and Anzio

[mikoyan]

In essence the Fallschirmjager of the 1st Parachute Division were not defeated in the battle of Monastery. The German high command decided not to defend their flank because they thought the terrain was impassable. Moroccan mountain troops proved this assumption incorrect. The FJ withdrew because their supply line was threatened.
They were supposed to hold an objective. They didn't. Thus defeat.

[Kommandant]

They were supposed to hold an objective. They didn't. Thus defeat.


they were defeated strategically, not because of a battle, you know men of
two different sides fighting each other!!!!


and they did hold the objective, they were just ordered out of it, thus finishing
their mission

[Kommandant]

mikoyan,

i don't want to sound like an a-hole, but you should read a bit more
about this war, not just from the allies side, but also from the axis perpective
as well

you'll be surprised how much more you'll know

actually don't do that, someone might think your a Neo-Nazi lol :eek: :D

hopefully that sentence won't start anything :rolleyes:

[Predator666]

Hopefully it won't. They did win on the idea of decimating many an enemy force though.

[fifleche]

Some people like to point out that the FJ's held out for four months at Monte Cassino. It seems that those bumbling Americans held out for longer than that at Corregidor. Hell, the folks holding Bataan held out for that long despite not being resupplied or having enough food and having to contend with the various inflictions of the jungle.Except that those "bumbling Americans" can do it with these SA's:

"Tough"
"Hard Charger"
"Strars & Stripes"

Whereas the FJ just has to hope to roll really well :o

[malcolm_river]

they were defeated strategically, not because of a battle, you know men of
two different sides fighting each other!!!!


and they did hold the objective, they were just ordered out of it, thus finishing
their mission


You do realize that what you said and the other guy said mean the same thing? You just give it a positive spin by saying they were order out of there, and therefore they did not lose. The other guy said they gave up the objective, and is therefore a loss. It means the same thing when you take the spin off of it. However, when it was the "Screaming Eagles" and their importance at the Battle of the Buldge, where they did not LOSE the objective nor were they ordered out of it, (equals the same thing=loss) somehow the logic does not work and reveals some soet of bias in the designers part. Weird, huh?

[mikoyan]

mikoyan,

i don't want to sound like an a-hole, but you should read a bit more
about this war, not just from the allies side, but also from the axis perpective
as well

you'll be surprised how much more you'll know

actually don't do that, someone might think your a Neo-Nazi lol :eek: :D

hopefully that sentence won't start anything :rolleyes:
I've read a couple books from the Axis perspective about the U-boat war and quite frankly, I found them depressing. I can't understand how folks fought for Hitler (or Stalin for that matter).

Sorry, I like the Americans and Brits (and Soviets to a lesser extent).

[Kommandant]

You do realize that what you said and the other guy said mean the same thing? You just give it a positive spin by saying they were order out of there, and therefore they did not lose. The other guy said they gave up the objective, and is therefore a loss. It means the same thing when you take the spin off of it. However, when it was the "Screaming Eagles" and their importance at the Battle of the Buldge, where they did not LOSE the objective nor were they ordered out of it, (equals the same thing=loss) somehow the logic does not work and reveals some soet of bias in the designers part. Weird, huh?

he said they were suppose to hold the objective, they didn't, thus defeated

they did hold the objective, until ordered out, they were not defeated in a
battle, which is why they are not considered to have been beaten, get it!

the SE's didn't have a choice but to continue fighting, they were after all
surrounded

[Kommandant]

I've read a couple books from the Axis perspective about the U-boat war and quite frankly, I found them depressing. I can't understand how folks fought for Hitler (or Stalin for that matter).

Sorry, I like the Americans and Brits (and Soviets to a lesser extent).

i'm not saying that liking the US and UK, nothing wrong with that
nor am i saying that liking Germany is way better, it depends on what you like
to read about, etc.

in my case i like to read on the axis side, for me its much more interesting
but thats just me

you also have to think that by that time, Hitler looked like a nice guy to the
germans(well most of them atleast), after all he did help rebuild their country,
made germany a world power, etc. So in the eye of most german man and
women(non-jew, etc.) he was a saviour

and you also have to think that not every german was a nazi, a lot of the
soldiers fought for their country, just like the americans, british, etc. did for
their country, Example: Rommel was an officer that wasn't a Nazi(and if he
was he wasn't a die hard one), among many other soldiers

for example: i'm going to join the marines in december, does that mean i like
bush, no i don't, i don't like politics at all lol, but i'm doing it because it will
give me the help i need to establish my future, they are going to pay for
college(well most of it anyway), and the marine paycheck on top of that, is
not bad lol

actually now that i think of it lol, that wasn't a very good example lol :D

[cannonfodder]

Nice stress guys. You realize you're arguing about something that happened 60 years ago right? And then you want to take that argument and apply it to a game. Seems a little odd to me. If you want to argue about the unit and what SAs it should have then why not try doing it in terms of the game itself. Would the addition of an SA affect game balance in a negative way?
Face it, the SAs in this game are to add flavour to units. If we didn't have them this game would be boring dice roll after dice roll. The SAs give us a way to make units work together and provide benefits for each other. They also give us a reason to build armies made up of different types of units. If there were no SAs there would be no reason to play any inf unit but SSPGs and Rangers. As it is Stormtroopers and Thompsons will get play time because of their SAs.
I understand that some of you love history. I understand that you want to see historically accurate units. I just don't think that the performance, or lack thereof, of a specific unit at a specific time in history should have much effect on a tabletop wargame. If the FJ had Hard Charger or even Tough the game would suffer, I think. The last thing this game needs is an ubertrooper. The FJ is a fine unit and will serve German builders well. If you don't like it then don't use it, or house rule it into the God Amongst Men unit that you seem to think it should be. I plan on playing it as is, and appreciating that it isn't the end all be all unit. It shouldn't be, it's just another glorified infantry unit.

[malcolm_river]

he said they were suppose to hold the objective, they didn't, thus defeated

they did hold the objective, until ordered out, they were not defeated in a
battle, which is why they are not considered to have been beaten, get it!

the SE's didn't have a choice but to continue fighting, they were after all
surrounded

Either way, the German paratroopers had the objective, then they did not have it. Despite everything else you might think, it is a failure because they gave up the objective.

as for the SE, the other option was to give up. The German commander of the panzers gave the SE that choice, but they chose not to take it. They did not give up the objective. Period.

[zkraut]

Fallschrim were ORDERED out, dammit! You dont say no to a German high command officer in WWII! The Fallschrim had a choice to get out, or they could have stayed fighting, but they were forced to get out by high command.

And think of this. Which of the 2 has been fighting and had been in service longer? Fallschrim that started in 1939, or the Screaming Eagles who just started combat in 1944? Obviously, the units that have seen more combat and are veterans will be much more disciplined and reliable.

[cannonfodder]

All of them, in both situations did what they were told. If you've ever served in an army you'd know that that is what constitutes whether or not your mission was a success. Did you listen to orders? Yes. Then your mission was a success. Contrary to popular belief individual units do not get to decide whether they will stay or go, whether they'll attack or not, and whether they'll leave an objective.
You do what you're told. Period. Anything else gets you busted. Period. Your arguments are pointless. They did what they were told, therefore they succeeded. Period.

[Autarch]

They were supposed to hold an objective. They didn't. Thus defeat.

I was trying to remove the false impression some posters seem to have that the FJ at Monte Cassino were overwhelmed by force of arms.

Strategically, you are correct. They had to quit the objective, so it doesn't matter how it happened. But A&AM is a tactical game that deals with the how. IN that regard, I'd rather the Fallchirmjager had been specifically depicted as a top notch early war offensive unit or elite mid war defender. It just seems odd to me that a company making collectible miniatures would opt for a generic unit, rather than several specific units of the same subtype.

[mikoyan]

Fallschrim were ORDERED out, dammit! You dont say no to a German high command officer in WWII! The Fallschrim had a choice to get out, or they could have stayed fighting, but they were forced to get out by high command.

And think of this. Which of the 2 has been fighting and had been in service longer? Fallschrim that started in 1939, or the Screaming Eagles who just started combat in 1944? Obviously, the units that have seen more combat and are veterans will be much more disciplined and reliable.
Must have been nice. The folks on Corregidor had no choice. Same with the folks on Bataan. Despite that, they held out alot longer than many other folks against the Japanese.l

[ANTIBOMBER]

Just an observation.....
The 101st "Screaming Eagles" met their German counterparts at the battle of Carentan in France shortly after D-Day. The 101st took the town. Not bad for a bunch of "green" non-Veteran Paratroopers fighting a Veteran organization on the defensive in an urban setting.

Do what you like with it, I do not think it will open any eyes, you are all too polarized!

Personally, I hate the whole SA thing with AAM. I would prefer Units without any SA's, and then a seperate group of SA cards that could be purchased and then assigned to a particular unit of the purchasing players choice. Of Course I would have a very limited number of SA's and some of them might be Nation Specific.

Just My Opinion...

[Kaufschtick]

Except that those "bumbling Americans" can do it with these SA's:

"Tough"
"Hard Charger"
"Strars & Stripes"

Whereas the FJ just has to hope to roll really well :o

Yeah, unless those poor little 5 defense FJ's hook up with a Haupsturmfurher and decide to start shedding disruptions due to "Exert Will". Don't forget "Ruthless" & "Headshot" German SAs , the Germans are far from having to hang on the hopes of rolling really well, Puh-leeeze. :rolleyes:

[Autarch]

Just an observation.....
The 101st "Screaming Eagles" met their German counterparts at the battle of Carentan in France shortly after D-Day. The 101st took the town. Not bad for a bunch of "green" non-Veteran Paratroopers fighting a Veteran organization on the defensive in an urban setting.


The 6th Parachute regiment had been raised less than six months before D-Day and was composed in large part of volunteer Luftwaffe ground personel and men from Luftwaffe Field Divisions (3rd rate formations at best) and only had a small cadre of experienced soldiers.

In A&AM terms, they would be better represented by Luftwaffe Infantrymen than Fallschirmjager.

[fifleche]

Yeah, unless those poor little 5 defense FJ's hook up with a Haupsturmfurher and decide to start shedding disruptions due to "Exert Will". Don't forget "Ruthless" & "Headshot" German SAs , the Germans are far from having to hang on the hopes of rolling really well, Puh-leeeze. :rolleyes:Kauf, I was making a point that the US have access to SA's for ALL of their basic infantry pieces. Which is not the case for Germans. Perhaps I should have been clearer.

Not that I mind seeing generic infantry pieces for Germany. In fact, quite the opposite, I am supporting the idea of having a generic US infantry.

But still, the FJ -should- have a SA, IMHO.

[Predator666]

Also, the Paras were saved in the knick of time by shermans if memory serves. The germans had armor but nothing that could fight sneaky shermans.