Panther Ausf. D vs. Panther Ausf. G

[Kommandant]

ok as we all know we are getting a Panther Ausf. D

which one do you think is better, considering cost, AI/AT stats, SA's
or better yet, which one would you pick?

here are the stats for each:

Panther Ausf. G
Cost:49
Speed:4
Defense:6/4
AI: 7/7/6
AT: 16/14/11
SA:
SS Determination
Extended Range (12)
Superior Armor (2)
=============
Panther Ausf. D
Cost:35
Speed:4
Defense:6/4
AI: 7/7/6
AT: 15/13/11
Extended Range (12)
Superior Armor (2)

out of those two units which one would you pick for a 100 point game, and
why? and which one is better overall(considering cost, AI/AT stats, etc.)

[Krimsonstarr]

I'm thinking that a duo of these would be great in a 100 pt. game - leaving you a respectable 30 points with which to buy various infantry. 70 pts. gives you a pair of pretty nasty tanks! I can live with the slightly lowers stats. as compared to the SS Panther.

[Oberst Hermann]

In a 100 point game I would likely choose the Ausf. D, 14 points makes a big difference in a game of that size. The Ausf. G is better (+1/+1/- AV and SS Determination are a big help) stat-wise but I really have trouble believeing that SS Determination and a +1 AV at short and Medium are really worth 14 points.

[Richter von Manthofen]

None! I would either pick the Vet Tiger or go by large numbers with Elites or Stugs...

[Dr.Cornelius]

The Austrian Baron is correct. The Panther D's cost effectiveness is not bad, it just cannot compete against a swarm of 15-21 point tanks or the Vet Tiger. Take the VT out of the equation and it might fare a little better.

By the way, the Panther D is functionally equivalent to the Guards T-34/85, which I considered to be an excellent tank pre-Hetzer and VT.

[dictator_wanna_be]

I like both Panther tanks and there is no doubt that the SS version has better stats, but the Panther D is more cost effective. I think I will be using the panther D b/c it allows me to use the Brummbär with more points left over for SS PGs ;)

I tend to prefer the Panther to the Vet. Tiger b/c its a little to much of my points although the tank is amazing. But this may change with the amo dump... I might not be able to resist the amazing rolls... lol

[Dr.Cornelius]

Ammo Dump in the metagame does not help the Veteran Tiger - it hurts the VT, and everything else with high armor.

[Rasta]

The D is definatly better.
49 points is too high for a slighter better then average tank.

But the biggest descrepency is the Jagdpanther..57 pts for a turetless no SS tank ? (wotc quit smoking that stuff its bad for you)


I hope that some point down the road Wotc might make a more historical version, new stat cards maps and no crazy SAs.

[Lettische_Scooterist]

I'd go with the Panther D for 100pt. games. The G is too pricey to me for that game point level.

[malcolm_river]

In a 100 point game I would likely choose the Ausf. D, 14 points makes a big difference in a game of that size. The Ausf. G is better (+1/+1/- AV and SS Determination are a big help) stat-wise but I really have trouble believeing that SS Determination and a +1 AV at short and Medium are really worth 14 points.

I Know, considering that a SS-Panzer cost 2 points more than the regular Panzer, but has Extended Range, SS Determination, and Battlefield Awareness. But then again, point costs are arbitrarity.

[Predator666]

I would go with the Panther Ausf D. I would field two of them and some fillers, not sure what but mainly infantry.

[Surfer_Sam]

I hate strong expensive tanks, they take no skill to use. Just place them in any place with range to enemy and fire. That's why I like france, it takes skill

[Kommandant]

I hate strong expensive tanks, they take no skill to use. Just place them in any place with range to enemy and fire. That's why I like france, it takes skill

what about the Char bis?
21 points for a 5/5 defense 1939 tank
looks pretty strong to me :confused:

oh yeah you said expensive :rolleyes:

[zkraut]

Sometimes though, skill just wont work when your opponent uses 2x crocs and 2 stuarts. I wouldnt say people that use SS dont have skill. Look at tragicmishap. Ive met him in person and he has a lot of talent with this game. It takes skill to know what goes together correctly, so using big tanks in conjuction with other things is skill all on its own.

[Surfer_Sam]

The Char-Bis is not perfect however and has a negative SA
Unlike the Tiger which has two good SAs good stats all around and good arnor,

[Kommandant]

The Char-Bis is not perfect however and has a negative SA
Unlike the Tiger which has two good SAs good stats all around and good arnor,

yes it has a negative SA, that is true, but you can go around it and never
have to fear that SA

but for a 1939 unit, there isn't much that can kill it with out dying

and since i'm supposing you play early war games, what do the germans
have that can match that? only there elite units can, or am i wrong?

[Predator666]

They get the 88. That at least has a chance. Especially on a map that the Germans defend.

[Kommandant]

They get the 88. That at least has a chance. Especially on a map that the Germans defend.

the 88 is a good unit, but can easily be taken out and it is fairly immobile

in a 1939-1940 battles, france vs. Germany, germany has to use its best
and some say broken units(SSPG, Elite PzIV, etc.) to have a decent chance
of winning

[mlund]

Panther Ausf. D (35)
Panther Ausf. D (35)
Grizzled Veteran (8)
SS Haupsturmfurher (7)
SS Panzergrenadiers (5)
SS Panzergrenadiers (5)
SS Panzergrenadiers (5)

100 points

Way better than any of my builds with the SS Panther Ausf G.

- Marty Lund

[polish_horsy]

or...

Panther D = 35
Grizzly = 8
Hampster = 7
SS-PG x 9 = 45
BMW = 5

13 units.

[Richter von Manthofen]

Better
Vet Tiger 7* SSPG - Cheese

[dredlox]

Panther d. Losing the Determination hurts, but not to the tune of 14 points.

Doc C you still on the vet tiger kick? I dont think it is that good of a piece even. 2 panther ds for the same cost are enough to work it. 2 shots to 1 really adds up

[Richter von Manthofen]

Lets do the math:

Assume that the tanks meet at mid range. The Panther d throws 13 dice that is 6 or 7 sucesses on average, so you can bet on 1 hit and maybe 2. The Tiger with 15 dice and crack shot (10 sucesses to expect) will by all probability damage a Panther and with a bit luck get the two extra sucesses, but I would not bet on it.

Turn two. A damaged Panther won't be a danger to the Tiger (4 sucesses to expect...) If the second panther closes it will get probably 7-8 sucesses either disrupting or damaging the Tiger (6 front armor + SA2 or 5 rear armor) LEts assume a damage. The Tiger will still get 17 dice and probably 8-9 sucesses another damaged Panther. The next exchange will probably only disrupt the Tiger while the Tiger still will do 2 hits each round (it counts to have crack shot) I believe only if the Panthers damage the Tiger the first round they will win. But assume that you buy a panzerfaust for the 5 points two panthers cost over an Tiger the balance might tip in favor of the Tiger. The Tiger might even be able to avoid to be in mid range to both Panthers...

No I believe the Vet Tiger is STILL Superior...

[Xartloz]

Lets do the math:

Assume that the tanks meet at mid range. The Panther d throws 13 dice that is 6 or 7 sucesses on average, so you can bet on 1 hit and maybe 2. The Tiger with 15 dice and crack shot (10 sucesses to expect) will by all probability damage a Panther and with a bit luck get the two extra sucesses, but I would not bet on it.

Turn two. A damaged Panther won't be a danger to the Tiger (4 sucesses to expect...) If the second panther closes it will get probably 7-8 sucesses either disrupting or damaging the Tiger (6 front armor + SA2 or 5 rear armor) LEts assume a damage. The Tiger will still get 17 dice and probably 8-9 sucesses another damaged Panther. The next exchange will probably only disrupt the Tiger while the Tiger still will do 2 hits each round (it counts to have crack shot) I believe only if the Panthers damage the Tiger the first round they will win. But assume that you buy a panzerfaust for the 5 points two panthers cost over an Tiger the balance might tip in favor of the Tiger. The Tiger might even be able to avoid to be in mid range to both Panthers...

No I believe the Vet Tiger is STILL Superior...

In this math setup you asume that the two Panthers arent gonna swarm the Tiger. Lets say they didnt, and you are correct, as well as I would be correct, stating that the player would be somewhat newbie to the game if he/she had 2 Panthers and allowed them to meet a vet tiger 1 on 1.

Using your math with 2 Panthers against the Vet however is ether a damaged or destroyed Vet and 1 damaged Phanter. Thats 1-0 to the Phanter player, making that build better ;)

[dredlox]

Who the hell would throw just one out of 2 panthers into combat against a vet tiger? You would have to be an idiot.

You would have both of them close simulatanously. You'll trade a damaged panther for a damaged tiger, as you score 2 individual disruptions, and the undamaged Panther will finish the Tiger next turn. If they dont take the trade the Tiger retreats from the initial fire.

Weird scenario you got there, man. Really weird.

[dredlox]

Anyone know the math of having 2 7s shoot against a 5 defense infantry as opposed to the Tiger's crack shot 7?

in other words my crack shot Tiger shoots at a Ranger at 7 +1s, approx similar to a 9. What am i looking at when 2 panthers shoot 7 regular dice at a ranger?

[Xartloz]

Anyone know the math of having 2 7s shoot against a 5 defense infantry as opposed to the Tiger's crack shot 7?

in other words my crack shot Tiger shoots at a Ranger at 7 +1s, approx similar to a 9. What am i looking at when 2 panthers shoot 7 regular dice at a ranger?

7 dices is around 3.5 hits with the 50% chance. so thats 2x 3.5 hits .. pretty much an undamaged Ranger and 2 Panthers looking to be shot when Hitler finds out.

[Dr.Cornelius]

Don't forget the Panther's achillies heel - it has only 4 armor on the back, leaving it vulnerable to infantry close assault and cheap, fast flankers like the Stuart and the BT-7.

On the other hand, the Vet Tiger can all but ignore most infantry.

As to the odds, check out the Binomial Probability Calculator (http://faculty.vassar.edu/lowry/ch5apx.html)

[Richter von Manthofen]

In this math setup you asume that the two Panthers arent gonna swarm the Tiger. Lets say they didnt, and you are correct, as well as I would be correct, stating that the player would be somewhat newbie to the game if he/she had 2 Panthers and allowed them to meet a vet tiger 1 on 1.

Using your math with 2 Panthers against the Vet however is ether a damaged or destroyed Vet and 1 damaged Phanter. Thats 1-0 to the Phanter player, making that build better ;)

Nope its two panthers against a single Vet Tiger. What I did assume wasthat both Panthers are in medium range the first instance the Tiger has LOS to them. (a panther D has 13 dice at med range that yields 6,5 sucesses on average . Assuming that one hits and another misses yields a disrupted Tiger. The Tiger should by all probability at least disrup one panther (probably even damage it - 8 sucesses with crack shot is not so out of the way.) So only one Panther can close in for the kill (try it ;))

[Richter von Manthofen]

Ach JA! I might add that it IS possible (even not unlikely, but also not likely) that two PAnthers prevail, a few lucky dice rolls could yield an damaged Tiger....

[dredlox]

Yeah, thanks I have binomial tables, the odds on 2 separate attacks as one probablility is what I dont know.

Vet Tiger ignoring infantry - didnt ignore infantry very well at Gencon, did it? Imperial Sergeants banzai close assault 8 pseudo_crack_shotting heroes beats up pretty well on it. Once it gets disrupted, that's it, you get the ruthless too on the pgs, that's CA 7 at +2.

And you still get one hero - it's not that hard to protect him until turn 7

Furthermore, obviously the croc still has 44% chance of doing it in at the end of the game.

[Dr.Cornelius]

Vet Tiger ignoring infantry - didnt ignore infantry very well at Gencon, did it? Imperial Sergeants banzai close assault 8 pseudo_crack_shotting heroes beats up pretty well on it. Once it gets disrupted, that's it, you get the ruthless too on the pgs, that's CA 7 at +2.It is my understanding that most of the Gencon players vastly underestimated Banzai Charge and failed to agressively target the Imperial Sergeant. A well-supported VT has an excellent chance of eliminating a single, fragile Imp. Sgt. long before the VT is obliged to close within Banzai range.

Furthermore, obviously the croc still has 44% chance of doing it in at the end of the game.A Croc can easily "dance around the objective" and avoid LOS to a lone VT, but a VT backed up by a Hetzer is another story.