One mini = one squad?

[Rasta]

One mini equals a squad....?

I have seen this comment tossed out a few times and never a debate about it.
Do you think this is the case?

Personaly i dont see how it can be interpeted as a mini = a squad.


My reasons for one mini equals one man;

Singular names... Marine rifleman

units never used as a squad....Bar's ,bren's, bazooka's ect

Leaders and heros...obviously lone dudes.


But i would love to hear others opinions on the subject,maybe you can change my mind!

[polish_horsy]

read the names again. Marine RifleMEN. In most cases you are wrong.

[Cruizin2000]

When you use a large 3D map set up you can't help but see ONE man and ONE tank. I agree about the BAR, Brens, MG teams, etc - they're just ONE soldier. I know that Wizards wants us to see them as a squad but I can't. Mix a RD Capt, 3 Garands, a BAR, and a bazooka trooper and now you have a squad. I'm sure that other people will see this differently.

C2000

[Xartloz]

I belive its mentioned in the rulebook somewhere that a unit = a squad.

[zkraut]

Basic Troops are the squads. Leaders, heros, special weapons, and singular names are 1 person.


What I dont get is how and SSPG is one dude. The card is singular!

[mu11etboyz93]

maybe its just a typo.

[Cruizin2000]

Generally a "skirmish" game will be two squads of 8-12 soldiers, depending on the nationality, and up to two AFVs per side. This is another reason why when I see one soldier, I see one soldier. Oh well, it's just a game and a fun one at that.

C2000

[Colonel_Coo]

Great job on the poll.

You ask on your title:
Does 1 mini = 1 squad.

I click and say NO.

Then I read AGAIN your QUESTION and you state:
Does 1 mini = 1 man.

Look this book up on Amazon: Writing for Idiots 101

Jack-ass.

[Colonel_Panic]

My reflection: If it is one man = one mini, he would be a hell of a fat dude as he is the only fellow you can load on a Half-Track.

[Arontje]

Great job on the poll.

You ask on your title:
Does 1 mini = 1 squad.

I click and say NO.

Then I read AGAIN your QUESTION and you state:
Does 1 mini = 1 man.

Look this book up on Amazon: Writing for Idiots 101

Jack-ass.


Because of your post here I seem to have misunderstood too. I see and play like a unit is a squad or at least more then 1 person. Its like combat mission, thats how i see it.

[Joisey]

It's always been understood that the infantry mini represents a squad. Even for the officers, the AI and AV stats indicate it's an officer and staff, as one individual couldn't generate the firepower of a squad. The observers and mortars and heavy MG's represent fire teams.

[Remember-OWS-]

What I call the support units, like the Bren, they are, to my point of view, a Half Squad of 3 men or even we can call it a section.

SS-Panzergrenadier are section of 4 to 12 soldiers, like there equivalent.
SS-Haupturmführer is a Half HQ (3 soldier).
Pak 40 is a section
Fallschirmjäger is a Section.

We cannot see any units, except, maybe the Russian unit, has Squad.

Section : 4 to 12 soldiers
Squad: 8 to 24 soldiers (2 or more section)
Platoon (Troop): 16 to 50 soldiers (2 or more Squad)
Company: 100 to 250 soldier (2 or more Platoons with Detachment of Artillery)
Battalion: 400 to 1000 soldier (4 or more company with 2 detachment of Artillery)

I usually see my game at the company level, with detachment of Tank or Abteilung (German Battalion size, normally smaller due to lack of resource).

[Krimsonstarr]

I have no problem envisioning a single "soldier" miniature as representing a squad or a crew of men. The game wouldn't make much sense otherwise.! A platoon of tanks supports my 1/2 a dozen men? A transport that can only carry a single soldier? A 100 wide hex (IIRC) that can only hold a total of 3 soldiers and 1 AFV? An AT gun manned by a single person; it has a crew. A machinegun manned by a single soldier? NO, the soldier units represent squads/crews of men :)

[oddfellow]

a unit on the board = a squad. Couldn't be any other way under the ruleset, but I think it would be cool if someone can up with a mod that had rules for individuals. Sort of like how the Star Wars minis has regular game rules AND role playing rules that go with the minis. Maybe a squad based game similar to the one that was issued long ago that I always wanted to play? Could someone help me with the name? It had one counter = 1 man (with name) and they ran missions. ????

[PadreJim]

Yeah, I've always seen each mini as representing a section of infantry, whether it be a 4-man rifle team, a 3-man Bren team or a 3-man command team, it's a section.

I need 3 SMLEs, 2 Brens, 1 PIAT and 3 NCOs. Add in a Sherman, a couple of ATGs and two or three Vickers, and you have a 100 point force of 1 Platoon with a decent amount of support. For the most part.

[oddfellow]

I think the title of this thread tainted the poll results. I think a new one shhould be put up that isn't so misleading. I'm shocked if this many people think 1 man = 1 man.

[Lettische_Scooterist]

Doesn't it say right in the rule book that a single mini (infantry) represents a section or squad?

It's somewhere in the section about scale and all.

[Der Leiter]

One mini equals a squad....?

As with Remember-OWS- I believe the infantry are more half-squads and fire teams.

Singular names... Marine rifleman

As polish_horsy pointed out, that's (mostly) incorrect.

units never used as a squad....Bar's ,bren's, bazooka's ect

The BARs/etc should have been part of the squads, which is why I feel the units are only half-squads for infantry, or fire teams for support weapons. As you say they didn't field whole squads of bazookas/etc.

Leaders and heros...obviously lone dudes.

I don't think there's anything really obvious about leaders being alone; in fact from their defence being the same as a standard soldiers' and higher than a snipers who is generally thought to be a lone unit, so the attacks on some of them being equivalent to other infantry I think it's safe to say they are at least half-squads.

As for heroes, I treat them as half-squads as well.

I belive its mentioned in the rulebook somewhere that a unit = a squad.

In both versions of the rule books it states "Soldier miniatures usually represent several soldiers." Usually and Several being the keywords; this ambiguity leaves WotC room to fit various infantry and support weapons into one model, as otherwise some simply wouldn't work (such as the BARs/etc in full squads as stated before).


However when making my URR Formations I usually treat each infantry miniature as a full squad just so the army sizes don't get too ridiculous.

[Der Leiter]

Doesn't it say right in the rule book that a single mini (infantry) represents a section or squad?

It's somewhere in the section about scale and all.

Page 10 of the revised rulebook the big bolded block.

[Xartloz]

QUOTE=Der Leiter]As with Remember-OWS- I believe the infantry are more half-squads and fire teams.



As polish_horsy pointed out, that's (mostly) incorrect.



The BARs/etc should have been part of the squads, which is why I feel the units are only half-squads for infantry, or fire teams for support weapons. As you say they didn't field whole squads of bazookas/etc.



I don't think there's anything really obvious about leaders being alone; in fact from their defence being the same as a standard soldiers' and higher than a snipers who is generally thought to be a lone unit, so the attacks on some of them being equivalent to other infantry I think it's safe to say they are at least half-squads.

As for heroes, I treat them as half-squads as well.



In both versions of the rule books it states "Soldier miniatures usually represent several soldiers." Usually and Several being the keywords; this ambiguity leaves WotC room to fit various infantry and support weapons into one model, as otherwise some simply wouldn't work (such as the BARs/etc in full squads as stated before).


However when making my URR Formations I usually treat each infantry miniature as a full squad just so the army sizes don't get too ridiculous.[/QUOTE]

Thought so, even tho I couldnt remember just what it said, and cant say I had the rulebook near me ;)

[Der Leiter]

I keep a copy of it on my computer so I can reference it at need ;)

[Cruizin2000]

a unit on the board = a squad. Couldn't be any other way under the ruleset, but I think it would be cool if someone can up with a mod that had rules for individuals. Sort of like how the Star Wars minis has regular game rules AND role playing rules that go with the minis. Maybe a squad based game similar to the one that was issued long ago that I always wanted to play? Could someone help me with the name? It had one counter = 1 man (with name) and they ran missions. ????

Those games would be Ambush! and Battle Hymn - fun games!!

C2000

[Colonel_Panic]

Those games would be Ambush! and Battle Hymn - fun games!!

C2000
Those games are one of the best games ever made.
I used them to get my sons attentionspan to wargames, and then A&AM came along.

[Y2UAsk]

Nowhere do the rules state that one Soldier = one squad. Page 10 states "Soldier miniatures usually represent several soldiers." To me, that says "fire team." That particular term is somewhat anachronistic in the context of WW2, because I believe that at that time, only the USMC used it. But the concept was a solid part of Army tactics. A squad was divided into two teams, a fire element and a maneuver element, one led by the squad leader and the other by the assistant squad leader, according to the SL's choice. The fire element laid down covering fire to suppress the enemy while the maneuver element moved either into a flanking position or to assault the enemy. In certain cases, when the maneuver element got into a threatening position, the elements would switch duties -- the maneuver element took on the firing role and the fire element moved up.

This tactic went by different names in different armies, but it was pretty standard in all of them. The Germans frequently treated their squad-level LMGs as a distinct, third element rather than just part of the fire element.

Special weapons had special rules. They might be considered platoon-level assets under the direct control of the PL or doled out to individual squads and placed under the SL's control. Panzerfausts, for example, were almost always handled at the squad level, but there were also specialized tank-hunting teams (panzerjagers or panzer knackers). Most GIs were trained to use bazookas and demolition charges, and SLs could request them at pretty much any time, but again, their disposition was more up to the PL than the SL.

Anyway, the point of all this is that (IMO) very few AAM Soldiers represent just one guy. A 'rifleman' represents about a half-squad -- either the maneuver element or the fire element. An MMG represents a gunner, a loader, at least one ammo carrier, and possibly a spotter. An LMG represents at least two men and possibly more in the same roles as the MMG. A light mortar has the same crew needs as an MG, and a medium mortar even more -- both the weapon and the ammo are heavy. A bazooka needs at least two, a firer and a loader. A panzerfaust could be one, but also remember -- one attack roll in the game doesn't mean one shot. It means all the shots that can be fired in the space of one turn (which the game defines as a minute but feels more like 2-5 minutes to me). So it's more likely that 'a panzerfaust' is actually two or three men, all with panzerfausts and all firing at the same target. (Doctrine of almost every army was to make sure of your kill. Just one pzf might only blow off a track or kill the driver without destroying the tank. If the crew bails, you want riflemen in position to shoot them as they come out. That's what destroying a tank means.)

Even leaders are unlikely to represent just one man. These aren't squad leaders, they're platoon or company commanders. They need radiomen and runners to exert command.

From a training and doctrinal point of view, it doesn't make sense for individual models to represent individual soldiers. For numerous very good reasons, they operated in groups as much as possible.

Steve

[Predator666]

Some of the units represent squads and some specialized units (BAR, Bren, MG...) represent the immediate amount of men that are needed to operate that weapon.

[Cruizin2000]

Those games are one of the best games ever made.
I used them to get my sons attentionspan to wargames, and then A&AM came along.

I agree. When I play A&AM, Ambush!/Battle Hymn is exactly what comes to mind. I know that the infantry units represent more than one man but it's just more fun to think of them as individual soldiers and the vehicles as just one as well. I've even made some pieces for my 3D map that uses the "one man" scale. I also use PatrickWR's ideas about building reductions as well as HBFronts rules for not allowing vehicles to go into building hexes and leaving the vehicle wreck on the map. Fun, fun, fun!!

C2000

[ArmyVet]

When I play big games (300-500pts or more) I use one unit as just that ... one unit.

When I play anything under 300 pts then it's a squad.

Also the Army has the following:

1 Squad = Squad Leader & 2 Team Leaders
Each Team = Team Leader, and usually 3-5 men. (5 being a large Team like a Heavy Weapons Team)

Hope this helps. :D

[PatrickWR]

For what it's worth, Steve's description of the half-squad approach to units makes perfect sense and fits seamlessly into the design of the game. Case closed for me.

[BogenBlitz]

Great job on the poll.

You ask on your title:
Does 1 mini = 1 squad.

I click and say NO.

Then I read AGAIN your QUESTION and you state:
Does 1 mini = 1 man.

Look this book up on Amazon: Writing for Idiots 101

Jack-ass.

Colonel_Coo, are you being serious? Wow. What side of the bed did you wake up on?

As for the Ambush! game references, check out my icon!

[Cruizin2000]

Colonel_Coo, are you being serious? Wow. What side of the bed did you wake up on?

As for the Ambush! game references, check out my icon!

Trooper A was usually the officer with a Tommy gun. Man, I loved that game!!

C2000

[Photoner Hawkwind]

I say play it the way you want to have fun, but the data on the card appears to be intended to historically represent individual vehicles or a small group of men.

[carson]

I voted "no". But it really mkes no difference to me. I simply view it as variable and assume the piece represents however many men I need it to for "reality". So in most cases my riflemen models are viewed as squads/parts of squads, and things like officers, bars, MGs etc serve as individuals. Same with vehicles, guns, and planes.

About the only time my models represent something 1:1 is when they get used for some other game (like Flames of War). THEN each of my Aussies is a single man - though this is pretty irrellevant as they get based 5 per stand. But it's important for the individual types and vehicles.....

In addition to this I use a flexable PoV as far as how long a turn takes. On our tables turns don't represent any set blocks of time. Rather, they represent seconds/minutes/hours/even days as needed. Other miniture rules systems use this aproach to time as well, though I've been doing it for as long as I've been gaming(wich is a long time).

[NEVjr]

What I call the support units, like the Bren, they are, to my point of view, a Half Squad of 3 men or even we can call it a section.

SS-Panzergrenadier are section of 4 to 12 soldiers, like there equivalent.
SS-Haupturmführer is a Half HQ (3 soldier).
Pak 40 is a section
Fallschirmjäger is a Section.

We cannot see any units, except, maybe the Russian unit, has Squad.

Section : 4 to 12 soldiers
Squad: 8 to 24 soldiers (2 or more section)
Platoon (Troop): 16 to 50 soldiers (2 or more Squad)
Company: 100 to 250 soldier (2 or more Platoons with Detachment of Artillery)
Battalion: 400 to 1000 soldier (4 or more company with 2 detachment of Artillery)

I usually see my game at the company level, with detachment of Tank or Abteilung (German Battalion size, normally smaller due to lack of resource).
i see ATGs as one gun and crew, and a section of guns being 3-6 minis

[NorthernRommel]

For what it's worth, Steve's description of the half-squad approach to units makes perfect sense and fits seamlessly into the design of the game. Case closed for me.

1 Tank = 1 Tank
1 gun = 1 gun
1 figure = fireteam

Thats been my assumption too. Either way its just an abstract if you can get past the silly stacking rules.

[NorthernRommel]

a unit on the board = a squad. Couldn't be any other way under the ruleset, but I think it would be cool if someone can up with a mod that had rules for individuals. Sort of like how the Star Wars minis has regular game rules AND role playing rules that go with the minis. Maybe a squad based game similar to the one that was issued long ago that I always wanted to play? Could someone help me with the name? It had one counter = 1 man (with name) and they ran missions. ????

The original game rules that I did for WW2 skirmish warfare in 1/35 or 1/72 scale did that. We abstracted out the contents of a "team" where each base had a ID on it that corresponded to a prebought fireteam of soldiers. That is the game I used as the base of Rommel's Brigades, and it was pretty neat.

There are several rules systems out of England that also do a similiar mechanic as this. One set was call FireFight or some such thing.

SPI did a game called CITYFIGHT that was similiar to that as well. It was for modern warfare.

There was a role playing game for WWII done in early 80's but I cannot remember the name of it. It started out as miniatures rules and ended up having role playing with it for WWII normandy. I thought it was FGU but I cannot find it on the big list of WW2 games database. A friend of mine and his brother played it all the time but the name of it eludes me. I do remember it being pretty detailed.

There is also a game done like that for Vietnam that used minis or counters but I forget who published it. It used cards and 1/72 scale minis.

[reddingstacey]

Behind Enemy Lines by Fasa was the role playing game that I think you are reffering to.

SPI also had Sniper which was 1 counter = 1 soldier. The first 2 sets where WWII and the third was modern.

Also AH had a 1 counter = 1 soldier game called Firepower which was post WWII.

Cheers,
Stacey

[NorthernRommel]

Behind Enemy Lines by Fasa was the role playing game that I think you are reffering to.

SPI also had Sniper which was 1 counter = 1 soldier. The first 2 sets where WWII and the third was modern.

Also AH had a 1 counter = 1 soldier game called Firepower which was post WWII.

Cheers,
Stacey

Thats its - Behind Enemy Lines :o and yes City Fight was the modern version of Sniper. I remember now.

[Zeus[BTY]]

I also go for most Soldier units representing a fireteam, support weapon team or command section of 3-4 men. Sniper units represent one man, and an antitank Soldier is a team of 2-3 men with a single bazooka/panzerschreck etc.

This works out very well when representing squads, platoons and battalions; the only thing not right is transport capacity, and the fact that we are missing squad leaders (the only NCO in the game is too powerful, and seems more to represent a platoon commander - I'd like to see some NCO's with a not too powerfull SA and only +1 Initiative, or even no Initiative modifier at all).

I don't know enough about armored formations to say if for instance a sherman represents one sherman, or a "squad" of them, or whatever :) .

[Count_Ciano]

I always went with the "Tobruk" model for this game:

1 vehicle= 1 vehicle
1 atg/mortar/mg/etc.= 1 weapon and crew
1 soldier= 1 section (8 or 9) men w/ NCO

Seems to be a good fit.....

[Richter von Manthofen]

For simplicity I use 1 mini is 1 unit. :D

[cannonfodder]

Does it really matter? Imagine whatever makes you feel most comfortable. None of this changes the gameplay or game mechanics. It's like arguing if the German Volksturm is wearing the right coloured socks.
For the record I like the "point" idea where each unit represents a group of 3 or 4 soldiers but what I like changes nothing but my imagination.
The unit still rolls X many dice at Y target at Z range, that's all I need to know.

[TheCygnysGuardian]

I agree with cannonfodder.

[reddingstacey]

You are correct for most scenarios as they are played, but if someone wants to recreate historical full strength platoons and companies they are left to come up with a best guess. For many this is fine, but there are those of us who want it to be as right as possible...

Yeah, I now, if we want accuracy we should perhaps look somewhere else. Then again maybe creating an online supplement of historical TO&Es using A&A minis would help recreate some excitement over the game.

Best regards,
Stacey


Does it really matter? Imagine whatever makes you feel most comfortable. None of this changes the gameplay or game mechanics. It's like arguing if the German Volksturm is wearing the right coloured socks.
For the record I like the "point" idea where each unit represents a group of 3 or 4 soldiers but what I like changes nothing but my imagination.
The unit still rolls X many dice at Y target at Z range, that's all I need to know.