Support Units are PRICELESS!!!

[Skorpiun]

I'm sure most of you if not all have used the new support units in a game or two by now. Allow me to give my first time use report on these things.

Scenerio: Attack/Defend
Axis (Germany) 1,000 point army (Attacker)
Consisted mainly of heavey tanks (King Tiger's, Elefant's, Jagdtiger's, Panter's, Vet. Tiger, Tiger I's, Para's, Pak 40's, several planes.)

Allies (Russia and U.S.) 900 points (Defender) 450 a peice
IS-2's, KV-1's, T-34's, Spotters, Mortars, Commisar's, Mosin's.
Shermans all variants, Pershings, Red Devil, Mortars, Planes, 36's.

The game started out real slow as they were pinned down by the long range heavy tanks of Germany. About 4 or 5 rounds into the game the Germans decided to go without all out attacks bringing in the heavies to assault the allies at a closer range, as the majority of allied tanks were in cover and have good success on cover rolls.

This was a major mistake as it turned out. The Shermans and KV's were doing crazy damage being able to reroll those ones. On turn 6 the Germans had lost 8 of their major tanks to the Allies lone sherman 105. from there the allies went on the offense, getting rear shots on the fixed howitzer tanks, thanks in part to the fuel depot, and rerolling all those 1's thanks to the ammo dump.

The German player neglected to use any of the support units, thus completely turning the tide for the allies. What would of wound up MAYBE a disruption was turning into damage counters, and with the extra speed boost, and head quarters for initiative the allies were out manuevering the opposition. at turn 10 the report was in points Allies (722) points and Axis (21). Talk about lopsided. Those support units make a crazy insane difference.

Couple notes from the game:
Long Range Mortars of Russia had 2 Elefant kills, plus pak 40's.
One particular Sherman M4A1 in back to back turns Killed a Vet. Tiger and Jagdtiger.
One particular KV-1 survived a point blank attacks from a King Tiger and Jagdtiger in the same round with no disruption.
Commisar killed 5 allies.
Red Devil Captain shot down a plane.

Sorry it was so long guys.

Skorp

[Krimsonstarr]

Sounds like your game was a lot of FUN!!! :D Those rerolls, without a doubt, greatly influenced the outcome of the battle. The Germans should have had one of their own, and paid the price for not having one.

[Frog]

I am convinced any build must have 2 things----

1)Support units

2)Something to kill your opponents support units

[polish_horsy]

I am convinced any build must have 2 things----

1)Support units

2)Something to kill your opponents support units

any build over 150 points I would agree with that.

I'd house rule these for use over 150 points. Either a sliding price scale or reduced effectiveness.

[johnnyonthespot]

Long Range Mortars of Russia had 2 Elefant kills

Uhhh..... how?

Elefant's defense is 8/6, with Superior Armor 2.

Soviet heavy mortar's AV attack 5 at long range. Plus, you get -1 on each die and Shrapnel 2 does not apply to attacks on vehicles. (Not to mention that you can't use indirect fire against vehicles).

I can maybe see, one time, a Soviet mortar killing a disrupted Elefant facing the wrong way. But how the heck did this happen twice?

Someone wanna calculate the odds of this?

[Krimsonstarr]

-snip-
I can maybe see, one time, a Soviet mortar killing a disrupted Elefant facing the wrong way. But how the heck did this happen twice?

Someone wanna calculate the odds of this?

The odds that it happens twice are: really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, low. :D

[TheCygnysGuardian]

True dat, my friends.
:D

[Lt_Douglas]

You want fun? Take a "Swarm" of Stuarts with a Fuel Depot and Ammo Dump. It's truly something to see those tanks zooming at speed 6... and then re-rolling all those ones rolled when shooting up enemy footsloggers...

[Yuki Sanada]

two words

Rocket Salvo

Goodbye Ammo Dump.

[Predator666]

Or use those paras in your build to hunt down ammo dumps and mortars. You could have used the fixed guns Germans had for long range and move the tanks forward under their cover. That way anything moving from cover can't take out heavy tanks in time with a flanking shot.

[spite48]

Uhhh..... how?

Elefant's defense is 8/6, with Superior Armor 2.

Soviet heavy mortar's AV attack 5 at long range. Plus, you get -1 on each die and Shrapnel 2 does not apply to attacks on vehicles. (Not to mention that you can't use indirect fire against vehicles).

I can maybe see, one time, a Soviet mortar killing a disrupted Elefant facing the wrong way. But how the heck did this happen twice?

Someone wanna calculate the odds of this?

Not necessary to calculate the odds. He probably just misapplied shrapnel 2. People miss exceptions to rules all the time.

[cannonfodder]

My question is why did your opponent do nothing to kill your support units? It makes no sense. Air units, paras, partisans, Humbers, BMWs, the possibilities are nearly endless. I don't see how someone would just sit there and take it like that without attacking the units that were really the problem instead of shooting uselessly at an extra-killer, extra-fast enemy. I don't get it. It's bizarre like Elefants dying from mortars.

[Photoner Hawkwind]

I think that the only priceless support unit is the barbacue and it's SA's located on the following thread. http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?t=16373

You gotta check it's SA's out. They are definately priceless. :D

[Skorpiun]

You guys are correct in every aspect of the word about the artillery (mortars). It would have made more sense, if i have of explained that when we play the bigger games we do use several house rules. Really usually simple house rules such as anything with shrapnel does use the normal shrapnel rule, just a couple of things of the sort. It drastically helps to shorten the games, though that particular game went for about 6 hours, mainly because we did have 3 people.

Our opponent that was playing Germany did made several attempts at taking out the supply units, but on the first try he had, he lost a plane to a Red Devil Captain. After that he was adament.

I hope though that the meaning of the story still got through, that the supply units are PRICELESS!!! It was odd in every aspect of the word, it seemed like the U.S. Shermans would roll their attack, half of the dice would land and the other half would be 1's, so on the reroll they'd end up landing also. Our opponent in retrospect did have rather ****** rolls. i mean point blank rage with a KT and JT and couldnt disrupt a KV. He did roll several 1's in each of those attacks..... just think if he'd got rerolls.

Sorry i left the story so abstract guys.

[ayeblackbart]

Played with support units for the 1st time this weekend and my opponent didn't. The ammo dump was guarded with AA and MG's and I chewed him
up with the rerolls. By the time he realized he needed to risk a plane taking out my ammo dump all of his planes were gone.

We reversed sides and I played a death from above 250 pt allied army with 7 planes and 13 paratroopers. My first priority before securing the objective was to drop close to the dump and take it out. After that I chewed up his heavy German tanks and Brummbars with the planes and the boys from the 101st.

[cannonfodder]

I still don't get it. You can protect those units all you want, I still get to shoot at them unless you flamethrower me first. Put up all the defense you want. Three shots from any range with any unit should cause the ammo and fuel dumps to self destruct. You used the "flammable" SA right? I don't care what the Cpt shot down, did the unit 1)not get hit with sufficient successes? 2)did it make it's cover save? and 3)did it not roll a 5 or 6 to avoid blowing up. Also remember that units that are disrupted don't get to use their SAs, so no bonus fuel or ammo if it's disrupted.
An average plane has short range AI dice of about 8. That leads to about (I'm no stats guy) a 65% chance of rolling at least 3 successes. Then it's 50/50 on the cover roll, followed by 1/3 chance of "flammable" kicking in. And that's for every unit that attacks. The odds of a unit surviving this from more than one attacker is near zilch.
This is the second story I've heard like this and I keep shaking my head. Either you guys are the luckiest die rollers in history or you aren't getting the neg SAs right. The chances of a "dump" support unit surviving against a motivated attacker are negligible.
The question is "How long will it last?" not "Will it survive the game?" My answer is usually less than 2 turns.

[Sharpe]

Disrupted units still get SAs. Disrupted commanders can't use command abilities.

[cannonfodder]

Okay, I'm wrong on that one point. I read the rules incorrectly. I still can't see how anyone lets these units live. They MUST be killed. In that sense, and in that sense only, the support units are important. BUT, what's important is that you kill them asap, not that they affect the whole game.
It's important to make sure you build a build that can kill support units. That's what these units change. After two turns, at the most, these units should be dead. If you let them live any longer than that you'll get your assets kicked, and you'll deserve it.

[CaptainHans]

An average plane has short range AI dice of about 8. That leads to about (I'm no stats guy) a 65% chance of rolling at least 3 successes. Then it's 50/50 on the cover roll, followed by 1/3 chance of "flammable" kicking in. And that's for every unit that attacks. The odds of a unit surviving this from more than one attacker is near zilch.

Its not quite near zilch. The way I worked this out it comes out about a 50% chance of destruction or survival depending on who you are. If you attack with an average plane at 8 dice. You will need 4 to destroy about half the time yes. so: 1-1/3 (flamable)= 2/3(not on fire)*1/2(shot)*1/2(can't find a tree)+1/3(on fire)= 50% destroyed.

It is entirely possible for the ammo dumps to survive multiple attacks. They are not as fragile as most people think and if you wish to risk a plane on a 50/50 shot go ahead and I'll shoot it down.

[Colonel_Coo]

Its not quite near zilch. The way I worked this out it comes out about a 50% chance of destruction or survival depending on who you are. If you attack with an average plane at 8 dice. You will need 4 to destroy about half the time yes. so: 1-1/3 (flamable)= 2/3(not on fire)*1/2(shot)*1/2(can't find a tree)+1/3(on fire)= 50% destroyed.

It is entirely possible for the ammo dumps to survive multiple attacks. They are not as fragile as most people think and if you wish to risk a plane on a 50/50 shot go ahead and I'll shoot it down.
Ammo Dump = 10 points
Allied airplane = minimum 18 points

[Rick]

Col. Coo, on a strickly simple understanding of value = cost, then yes, an Ammo Dump is less valuable than a plane. Thus sending a plane to take out an Ammo Dump is nearly a suicide mission. However, in terms of game impact and over all potential loss to your force, then loosing a plane to kill an Ammor Dump can make sense. The same holds even more true for taking out an American 81mm Mortar because of their improved indirect fire SA.

For me, even at a simple 100 pt. game, I will from now on always have some capability to do a deep strike. It does not have to be much. All you really have to do (especially against the American Mortars) is make them move out of sight or range and that can only move in the assult phase thus eliminating their attack.

Rick

[cannonfodder]

I agree with your math but you only used 1 attacking unit. Use two (never do anything half way) and the thing isn't going to survive. Also you only figured out the odds for 1 turn. I said they almost never last past turn 2.
Yes, planes are an expensive way to kill dumps, that's why I try to use partisans in every build. If my opponent has a dump or a mortar in his build I put them deep in enemy territory, preferably where they will deny the best hiding places to the player using the dump or mortar. If he doesn't have a dump in his build then they get deployed on the side of the map nearest the objective.
I stand by my original claim. It's nearly impossible to keep a dump alive for more than two turns against an opponent who is seriously trying to kill it.

[oddfellow]

If you "set up" second you can simply place the ammo dump away from your opponents partisans and put something that will chop them up in their path. partisans are not guaranteed a shot at the Ammo Dump. You can prevent paras from dropping by using strategic placement of cheap units (read: volksturm)... paras can't deploy adjacent to enemy units and 10 pts worth of 2 pointers covers a wide swath, especially if the Ammo Dump is in a corner with cover blocking LOS. The ammo dump should, generally speaking, be deployed in a corner with cover if possible IMHO. Planes don't really have a counter, which I like, because its nice that planes have a use now. But if you don't take it out with the first plane and it gets shot up, do you have a second one? They're pretty fragile (planes), except for the jets, but jets can't hit soldiers in cover anyways.

[Galastro]

Well, our player group have decided to ban all Support units. We think it moves the focus of the game, which is to take the Objective. Now the first thing is to kill the opponents Support Units. And then, maybe after that, hunt down the objective. And how the hell can the Planes have the advantage from the AmmoDump? Do they teleport the ammo up to the plane? But as long as all the players agree to use them, its up to each player group to use them or not.

[well_it_sounded_nice]

If you "set up" second you can simply place the ammo dump away from your opponents partisans and put something that will chop them up in their path. partisans are not guaranteed a shot at the Ammo Dump. You can prevent paras from dropping by using strategic placement of cheap units (read: volksturm)... paras can't deploy adjacent to enemy units and 10 pts worth of 2 pointers covers a wide swath, especially if the Ammo Dump is in a corner with cover blocking LOS. The ammo dump should, generally speaking, be deployed in a corner with cover if possible IMHO. Planes don't really have a counter, which I like, because its nice that planes have a use now. But if you don't take it out with the first plane and it gets shot up, do you have a second one? They're pretty fragile (planes), except for the jets, but jets can't hit soldiers in cover anyways.
thanks for the clear advice on this and i do mean clear :)

[shadowhooch]

Is an Ammo Dump considered an "enemy unit".

In other words, can you drop a Para directly adjacent or on an Ammo Dump?
Or do you have to have a soldier there to prevent it?

[cannonfodder]

Actually, if I have to deploy my units first then I put my partisans in the "best locations" for support units. If you look at the maps there are only so many places you can put a unit in cover and not in LOS to the centre area of the board. Plop your partisans in locations with LOS to those spots and watch your opponent hum and haw about where to put his support units.
shadowhooch, I assume it's a unit, it has soldiery stats. this brings up a good point too, partisans don't have that limitation so you can drop them right next to your target. If your opponent uses Volksturm to limit your close approach remember, you don't have to fight them, you can shoot right through them at the dump, as long as you have LOS. Besides, even in a corner hex, he'll need 3 or 4 VS Inf to cover hexes. That's close to the same amount of points as the 2 partisans I generally focus on killing support units. Balance, balance, balance.

[Himmler67]

:mad: I like support units but once again they are greared toward the allies!
Why does the fuel depot only work on speed 3 plus? this is idiotic at best and once again hurts the axis who has more slow tanks. It shoud add movement bonus across the board to everything.

[Krimsonstarr]

:mad: I like support units but once again they are greared toward the allies!
Why does the fuel depot only work on speed 3 plus? this is idiotic at best and once again hurts the axis who has more slow tanks. It shoud add movement bonus across the board to everything.

Sorry, but I can't think of to many Axis tanks with a speed of less then 3. At the moment I can't even think of any (?). In fact, the fuel depot can really give the Axis a real "speed boost" as a great many of their tanks are speed 3. On the other hand many Allied vehicles already have a speed greater then 3. So it helps to level the speed discrepency out between the two sides. Actually it is more of a benefit to the Axis then it is to the Allies.

The only thing that I can think of for it not affecting slower tanks, is that they were really slow and ponderous beasts machines in real life. The fuel depot adds extra "range" as it were to movement because the tank commanders are "burning" more petrol driving around versus trying to conserve what they have in the gas tank.

[oddfellow]

Besides, even in a corner hex, he'll need 3 or 4 VS Inf to cover hexes. That's close to the same amount of points as the 2 partisans I generally focus on killing support units. Balance, balance, balance.

...but after turn 2 the 1-2 partisans are dead from taking on the majority of my force head on. Even if you are playing the "original" six map configs, if you set up first and space everything correctly you can easily deny a partisan from placing within firing range (up to four hexes), especially in the maps with cover near the corners (Urban Combat, Hill 107, Half and Half, Knife fight). Partisans aren't tough enough to weather my entire force if I deny them cover hexes on the periphery, so they'll be dead after the first assault phase without even coming in range to take the shot. Paratroopers ARE tough enough, but each single unit (even the lowly volksturm) denies a para from dropping in the SIX hexes around it. Thats a lot of ground you can cover. After the partisans are dead you move your force up. If they also have paratroopers you leave cheap units back and spread out to deny them from dropping. Sure, they can send some stuff to try and open up holes for their paras to drop, but then you've got your opponent coming to "your House". I admit, you do have to commit resources to doing this for the first few rounds and your opponent is likely to take control of the objective first, but the ammo dump is so huge an advantage (at least in the games we've used it) its almost worth it. If it comes down to a slugfest at the end of the game and I'm the only one with ammo dump I like those odds.

Its cheese in the trap, if your opponent commits resources to come for it you snap their necks, if they don't, you beat them upside the head with the cheese (ammo dump). It won't always work out and I'm not saying I'd always play this way, its just there are so many nay-sayers that act like ammo dump CANT EVER work I feel a need a to play Devil's Advocate.

[oddfellow]

Concession: Ammo dumps likely won't survive in many/most games, but IF they do... sweet baby jebus its a thing of beauty!