Europes Balance to A&A

[Darksideknight]

Europe in my opinion is far and away the most balanced of the three A&A games out so far. Hopefully this was taken into account when designing the new game. Mike said that the new game would be 50-50. I believe Europe is 50-50, and it is because of this, that I enjoy playing it more than the other two. I heard someone claim it was flawed. How so? Except that it is ussually a bad idea to go after anyone than Russia, I don't see a weakness in the game. You can buy a destroyer with the 12 ipc start, then a battleship and two transports on the first turn. After that you can build more transports and strategic bomb the heck out of Uk. After capturing convoys on the first two turns britan is very low on ipcs. If the Us doesn't buy fighters to fly there, you can build your fleet even more, and should have a reasonable chance to capture Britain. I like to play where Germany has to capture two capitals to make for a harder and longer game. That way you have to plunder the UK too,and this allows the allies to bring Russia back into the game. Give this a try if you think that the Europe game is too predictable, this play out isn't. This also allows Germany to build a massive fleet which is loads of fun.

-Jason

[ January 28, 2004, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: Darksideknight ]

[The Rat King]

The reason many people feel that A&A Europe is unballanced is because they have encountered the dreaded "German stack" strategy at some point. Its nearly impossible for the Allies to win against that strategy.

The stack basically does to A&AE what the "shuck shuck" stragey did to the original A&A. It's a strategy that is so good that once somebody learns it they will use it every single game because it has a high probability of working. This makes the game too repetitive and one sided. I know a couple of people who hate the stack so much that they won't play A&AE anymore.

[Darksideknight]

Thanks for your response Rat King
I appreciate it

The reason many people feel that A&A Europe is unballanced is because they have encountered the dreaded "German stack" strategy at some point. Its nearly impossible for the Allies to win against that strategy.
The stack basically does to A&AE what the "shuck shuck" stragey did to the original A&A. It's a strategy that is so good that once somebody learns it they will use it every single game because it has a high probability of working. This makes the game too repetitive and one sided. I know a couple of people who hate the stack so much that they won't play A&AE anymore.
* One question are you speaking for these many people or is this you're opinion as well?
I am well familer with the so called "German Stack" I routinly beat the six turn and so called "dreaded" 7 turn stack with no allied bids. I ussually have between 12 and 16 fighters in moscow by the time the stack gets there, along with around 70 ground units. This makes for a very edge of your seat game and ussually comes down to rolls in my games. I have been busting the stack for the last couple of years and only lost Moscow once in the last two years. (I still won the game invading Germany and holding it as they only had 20 units there.) I must say either people really Must be at a loss on how to muster a allied defense in Moscow, or there is something else out there besides that stack that people are losing to. In Europe sometimes there are battles Russia can't fight if it hopes to defend it's capital. There are also territorys it can't move a large millitary force into. I ussually just kept most of my whole army in Belorussia the whole game. Untill Germany comes with the stack and I fall back into Moscow for one more turn build. The trick is to get two fighters every turn into Lenigrad or Norway or where ever, just get them there! Always Build just infantry with Russia unless the stack is already busted.

With this being said the games can be very close it ussually comes down to rolls in Moscow. Although you should be sending fighters over every turn as well as building up a invasion force and clearing the convoys. With good control of the allies the games should be 50-50.

-Jason

[Darksideknight]

[ January 28, 2004, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: Darksideknight ]

[USMMA95]

This is in regards to the "Stack": I believe that Germany has the edge. Unless the Allied player sends units to the Soviet Union, there is not much of a chance for the Allies to win. The game is a race between Berlin and Moscow. I am planning some games with some players that have not heard of the "Stack." This will be an interesting experiment to see how they react to it. One of the keys for the "Stack" to work is to keep the US and Britian dealing with the convoy boxes on the first three turns. By turn 5, Germany is one space away from Moscow. Another part is to buy the right units in the correct turn order. When taking out the US and British ships, the fighters need to be taken as casualties so that the subs can survive till turn three.

[Darksideknight]

Posted by USMMA95
This is in regards to the "Stack": I believe that Germany has the edge. Unless the Allied player sends units to the Soviet Union, there is not much of a chance for the Allies to win. The game is a race between Berlin and Moscow. I am planning some games with some players that have not heard of the "Stack." This will be an interesting experiment to see how they react to it. One of the keys for the "Stack" to work is to keep the US and Britian dealing with the convoy boxes on the first three turns. By turn 5, Germany is one space away from Moscow. Another part is to buy the right units in the correct turn order. When taking out the US and British ships, the fighters need to be taken as casualties so that the subs can survive till turn three.
* I disagree strongly with your statement about fighters being taken as casulties. In my German stack strategy I never ever burn fighters before subs. The most effective German strategy that I've developed is to build a extra sub in the mid atlantic with the 12 ipc start. Take both US convoys and hit the US and British fleet in the Davis Straight. Two subs against a trans.and a destroyer. Even odds, this means if you win one or both of these battles the allies will have to take two turns no matter what, to get their convoys back. Assuming you've taken out the other British fleets. This meathod saves your fighters for use in Russia and keeps the Allies out of the convoys for two turns.

With regards to your statement that Germany has the edge, I do see a very slight advantage. That Advantage is that they have many more options in the second and third rounds. If the allies play right, and don't fight alot of even odd battles that aren't crucial in Russia, than the game should be perfectly even, German stack or not. The trouble is many people give this game a bad rap. While they haven't apparently played it enough to know all the in's and out's to be successfull against the "Stack."

Allied strategy should include

1- Clear convoys in the first round or two

2-Clear the Atlantic of German subs for safe passage.

3-Continually build fighters every turn to help Russian defense.

4-Russia must not move the bulk of it's infantry out of Belorussia!!!

5- When the German stack is moved to East Poland, Russia must have all, or allmost all of it's forces in Moscow.

6-IT is crucial you create an allied air strip in Finland or Norway, in case Germany moves to Baltic states. German stack to Baltic states takes away your direct fighter route.

7- Conserve your Russian infantry! Many battles no matter the size are ussually just dead zones. These dead zones are how the stack meathod works, they whittle away at Russia.

8- Convert Britain/USA Fighter/Bombers into Russian aircraft. The larger Russia's Airforce is, the larger Germanys "Stack will have to be to survive the Russian Dead Zone of East Poland. This Also allows allied navy build up, so Germany will not be able to send all of it's purchases to the front.

These tips along with lucky dice rolls,(Many lucky ones) have allowed me to survive the stack for the last two years. There have been lot's of close games but I feel if played right the balance is there.

-Jason

[The Rat King]

I know that the stack can be beaten, but I still hate it anyway because it makes the game too repetitive. Most German players know that if they don't use the stack their odds of winning are greatly reduced. So you get that strategy being used 9 out of 10 games, which forces the allies to do the same things in response and pretty soon every game starts to look the same.

I guess that this isn't so much a flaw of A&A Europe, but a flaw for any game that has a fixed initial setup. Eventually someone will develop an uber-strategy that is so effective that everyone uses it. Then someone comes up with a counter strategy and everyone switches. Personally, I have made it a point to not read any more strategy articles on the web. If you get too good at a game you reach a point where you can't enjoy the game unless you are playing against someone of equal skill. None of my friends are serious gamers.

[Darksideknight]

Posted by RatPack

I know that the stack can be beaten, but I still hate it anyway because it makes the game too repetitive. Most German players know that if they don't use the stack their odds of winning are greatly reduced. So you get that strategy being used 9 out of 10 games, which forces the allies to do the same things in response and pretty soon every game starts to look the same.
Well RatPack not much to argue over this time. I agree the game does seem very repetitive, IF you play the same stack strategy.
My A&A gaming circle plays tournement and non-tournement games just for this reason.
Tournement games ussually consists of same ol' same ol'. These games are played when someone wants to challenge another player for their ranking spot on a certain game.Consider these ranking spots like a depth chart for a sports team.

However, we like to play more non-tournement games to switch up strategys. I use these games to ussually try to build up a navy and invade Britain with with Germany. Take a look at my first post, using these rules next time you play, may help remedy the problem of repetition in the game.

-Jason

[Y2UAsk]

And this is nothing new to the hobby. Just dig out some old General magazines and read the torrent of articles that were published on the Viipuri defense in The Russian Campaign or the benefits to Japan of capturing Hawaii on turn 3 of Victory in the Pacific.

Steve

[Drax Kramer]

My group was discouraged from further playing of A&A:E when I conquered UK.

I saved all the initial IPCs, skirmished on the Eastern front and sent Italian fleet to Gibraltar sinking British destroyer.

My opponents suspected a Sea Lion, but did not change their usual "help Russia" purchases.

Turn 2, I spent 92 IPCs on transports and destroyers.

Turn 3, I captured UK and repulsed US counterattack. Game over.

It is true that British can prevent/delay Sea Lion with buying submarine before the game, but this helps Germany to proceed with super stack strategy.

I won't call the game broken, but it lost much of its appeal in my group.

Drax

[DY]

Darksideknight, I suspect one of the main reasons your group doesn't think the German "stack" is an all-conquering strategy, is partly to do with your approach to the naval battles on G1.

I think you will find that to play the stack correctly, you don't buy a sub and hit both USA convoy routes and the US fleet.

The idea is to build 4 infantry on the Russian front and to capture the 4 IPC SOVIET CONVOY BOX (this is a MUST as that 4 IPCs cripples the Soviet income for 3 to 4 turns). The 5 IPC Celtic UK convoy route is also a must. I often find I can also afford the 3 IPC South Atlantic box, although I don't think this is correct "stack" play.

I don't hit the USA or Canadian fleets, preferring instead to hit the all other UK fleets (except Eastern Med obviously).

You should also hit every Soviet "Occupied" territory on G1 (Vyborg, Blatic States, East Poland and Bessarbia) but don't get sucked into hitting Ukraine or Karelia (or Lenningrad!). Hitting any of these 3 would be an overstretch and a mistake.

The point is, if you hit Russia on a broad enough front, you suck them into a trading war that is in your favour because of the relative economies, the Luftwaffe and your tank advantage.

The stack has something like an 88% win probability, if played CORRECTLY. I think either Thrasher's site or Don Rae's forum has a more detailed analysis.

By the way, if you play correctly with the Kriegsmarine, then there is no way the Allies can afford to get 12 fighters in Moscow by G7, as you force them to build their own navy or let you become king of the high seas.

[USMMA95]

During the next game I play using the "Stack," I will try to win on turn 5 by taking Moscow. The key is taking the Middle East for the oil IPC's and have some convoys occupied at the end of turn 3 still.

My understanding of the stack is that Germany builds and takes the direct path to Moscow. A few territories on the Eastern Front are taken, but just to make dead zones. Majority of the pieces converge to one territory as it marches eastward. On turns 3 and 4, Germany builds tanks only, approximately 8 or 9, to speed the advance to Moscow. By consolidating and leaving Western Europe empty, the Soviet player cannot win or retake the territory that the stack is in. Too many units on defense.

I believe Moscow and the path to Moscow does not require many aircraft units to march to Moscow. By keeping the subs around longer, it ties up the US and Britain by wasting time fighting over the convoy boxes. Every time the US and Britain attack a sub and does not destroy it on the first round of combat, it submerges to live for another round. Each attack forces the US and British player to send overwhelming attack units to kill it on the first round of combat. Every destroyer built is one less fighter that can get to Moscow. Without controlling the water, no "shuck-shuck" will work properly.

On turn 5, Germany consolidates all remaining fighters and builds all infantry for defense. It does not matter if the US and Britain land in Western Europe because once the Soviets are defeated, everything turns westward.

I am interested in trying the Sea Lion approach also. It seems like the Allied player can see it coming and just build a lot infantry on turns 1 and 2 for defense. Germany can definitely hold the Eastern Front by defending 3 territories and moving the Western Europe units eastward. It seems like many players have not tried this since it would not work in regular AA with the way the UK sea zone is set up as one territory compared to three in AA Europe.

I could not find any links for essay specifically on the "Stack." If anyone knows it, please reply. Thanks in advance.

[Darksideknight]

Posted by: DY

Darksideknight, I suspect one of the main reasons your group doesn't think the German "stack" is an all-conquering strategy, is partly to do with your approach to the naval battles on G1.
I think you will find that to play the stack correctly, you don't buy a sub and hit both USA convoy routes and the US fleet.
Trust me on this one, I think the stack is Germanys best option other than "Sea Lion."
I have not lost a game with Germany for the last two years and don't plan on losing with them for a long time to come. My navel strategy is a optimal approach, I ussually take out the entire allied fleet on round 1 minus medit. fleet and Russian fleet. If not I leave the British or Americans one destroyer. How is that not the best play, eleminating the allied flleets on round one so they have to start from scratch? This also allows me to take both US convoys and the 5 and 6 ipc British convoys as well. If I take out all navys then I can truely concentrate on Russia.

The idea is to build 4 infantry on the Russian front and to capture the 4 IPC SOVIET CONVOY BOX (this is a MUST as that 4 IPCs cripples the Soviet income for 3 to 4 turns). The 5 IPC Celtic UK convoy route is also a must. I often find I can also afford the 3 IPC South Atlantic box, although I don't think this is correct "stack" play.
That is your idea and I have tried it many times, remember the Russians can get their convoy back, so I ussually take it on round two. The four infantry just means your ooponent is probably getting four Russians of his own. If you get the sub and save four, your opponent might gear up for Sea Lion.

I don't hit the USA or Canadian fleets, preferring instead to hit the all other UK fleets (except Eastern Med obviously). Well thats your option, I prefer taking them out, getting their convoys(to keep them busy) and taking away a potential counter attack as they do have aircraft with their destroyers.

You should also hit every Soviet "Occupied" territory on G1 (Vyborg, Blatic States, East Poland and Bessarbia) but don't get sucked into hitting Ukraine or Karelia (or Lenningrad!). Hitting any of these 3 would be an overstretch and a mistake.
The point is, if you hit Russia on a broad enough front, you suck them into a trading war that is in your favour because of the relative economies, the Luftwaffe and your tank advantage. Hitting Ukraine is a mistake? Sorry I disagree hitting Ukraine is something I routinely do to strafe Russia of valuable infantry. Also if you get a sub and a arty then you can hit karelia and get them to dump some of their infantry into the north. I think anyone who has played Europe before already understands hitting Russia on a broad front is a elementry component of winning. Taking out Lenigrad means that Russia can't secure it's front on turn two.

The stack has something like an 88% win probability, if played CORRECTLY. I think either Thrasher's site or Don Rae's forum has a more detailed analysis.
By the way, if you play correctly with the Kriegsmarine, then there is no way the Allies can afford to get 12 fighters in Moscow by G7, as you force them to build their own navy or let you become king of the high seas. My opponents in Europe ussually play exactly how you said they should with Germany, their winning percentage is 50% they are excellent A&A players they are excellent A&A E players. You keep stateing, "IF PLAYED CORRECTLY" playing correctly is entirely the opinion of the person playing the game. I have already posted on how I routinly beat the stack. If you would like to play a game by Email I would welcome your strategy, which I have seen and defeated many times. Send me a private message and we will have a go and see if you can defeat my allied play. ;)

-Jason

[Palindrome]

Greetings fellow strategists,

I agree with Darksideknight that AAE is the most balanced game of the three that I've played. The German STACK is beatable, but it is not as cut and dry as he makes it out to be. The danger for the Allies if Russia is essentially passive is the increased economic strength of Germany in the Middle east and in the other Russian territories. By the time Germany is in reach of Moscow and the Allies have bought mostly aircraft, Germany has an income of 54 give or take a few IPC's... this is more than enough to hold off the Allies delayed attempt at invasion and hopelessly outfunds Russia's now depleted income. I believe the way to beat the stack is to put pressure on the soft underbelly of Germany (the Med) ASAP. Defending the fighter in Malta is crucial and a US fleet needs to be ready to land in Morocco by turn 3 at the latest. Only with a distracted Germany can the Allies have a good chance at beating the stack.

A one front war is Germany's 3 out of 4 games.

[Domino]

I don't like the stack in AAE but you can't play without it if you want ot win from Mos. Mostly it's always Axis that is THE ONE that uses stack. I say that's it is only a reaction on the playstyle of Russia. Concentrating everything in Belorussia doesn't give the Axis player a lot of room. I dare to say that Axis can't win without stack when Russia is played by an expirienced player.

To Darksideknight: You beat 6 and 7 stack with ease :eek:
I think you have a big challenge at the club www.aaeuropemc.com (http://www.aaeuropemc.com) tongue.gif you won't find there that easy your victories with Russia.

[Darksideknight]

To Darksideknight: You beat 6 and 7 stack with ease
I think you have a big challenge at the club www.aaeuropemc.com (http://www.aaeuropemc.com) you won't find there that easy your victories with Russia.
* Oh heck no I don't beat it with ease I never said that, routinely, I did say that. As for the Europe club I am already a member.

-Jason

[DY]

You are wrong when you say that Russia just gets its convoy back, because you can blitz your sub in and back on G1, thereby blocking the Russian sub from recapturing it.

I've never done a PBEM so at this stage I won't accpet your challenge. I learnt that style of stack play off of Don Rae's or Thrasher's site.

When I say "correct play" I am referring to what I've read on those forums. Like I'm 99% sure hitting the Ukraine and the USA/Canadian fleets aren't part of the 88% win probability "stack." If you want to take this further, I will chase down the links for you...

[mmooneyapo]

It is too easy for Germany to win, all he has to do is keep the allies confused as to whether he is using the Stack technique or the Sea Lion technique, it is impossible for the allies to defend against both in the same game. All Germany has to do to is on his first turn, spend nothing, send its entire fleet and airforce against the British Navy (ignore every single convoy), and attack Russia with nearly all land units, however leave a sizable group of units specifically ready to invade UK. The Allies are then forced to attempt a defense agains the Stack and the Sea Lion. For Germany's second turn he should spend everything on two destroyers and the rest on transports, use his navy and airforce again to destroy any navy that may have been built around GB, continue attacking Russia with the Stack. Place the destroyers and the transports near Germany. The Allies should now know that you are attacking UK, they defend UK but it should be a poor defense as they should not have a navy, if they can actually create a good defense (you screwed up) you better hope that you were lucky on the Eastern Front because now you have to rely on Stack, which should not be that hard because the allies should not have the stack defense set up. If UK does have a poor defense as it should all you need to do now is throw an attacking land force on your transports and send them over with your airforce, you will get UK and no one should have a land force able to take it back. I figured this strategy out the first time I played (while playing the game, not before the game or in time to actually use the strategy, so Germany lost that game, but it was only a learning game anyways).
If you really want to alter A&AE for a fair fight, check out my post about removing America.
Or go here - http://www.geocities.com/mmooneyapo/Axis_and_Allies_Europe.html

[ March 25, 2004, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: mmooneyapo ]

[DY]

I've heard about the buy nothing plan on G1. It sounds like a winner, although I'm still convinced that the stack (even if they can see it coming) is also a very high % winner (around 88% I've heard).

[Darksideknight]

You are wrong when you say that Russia just gets its convoy back, because you can blitz your sub in and back on G1, thereby blocking the Russian sub from recapturing it.
I've never done a PBEM so at this stage I won't accpet your challenge. I learnt that style of stack play off of Don Rae's or Thrasher's site.
When I say "correct play" I am referring to what I've read on those forums. Like I'm 99% sure hitting the Ukraine and the USA/Canadian fleets aren't part of the 88% win probability "stack." If you want to take this further, I will chase down the links for you... Dy, I am pretty sure that moving into a enemy convoy and back out on the same turn is an illegal move. Furthermore we can play by email honer system on dice rolls just for fun, till you learn PBEM.

-Jason

[Drax Kramer]

Originally posted by Darksideknight:
I am pretty sure that moving into a enemy convoy and back out on the same turn is an illegal move. It's perfectly legal unless convoy is occupied by enemy naval units. Think of it as blitz move on the sea.

Drax

[mmooneyapo]

Yes, I agree that stack (when done correctly) has about an 88% chance to succeed, however, I believe that Sea Lion (when done correctly) has a 99% chance to succeed. I only leave the 1% chance for the possibility that Germany has the worst rolls of all time and the allies have a kill on every roll.