Who's Winning Your Games?

[johnnyonthespot]

Who is winning your games of BotB? Axis or Allies?

[byates]

Axis 5 wins 0 losses

[frimmel]

Axis is 6 and 0 but the Allies seem to be finding a strat other than hoping they aren't completely wiped out in turn 1.

[TrimChris]

The Axis are going to win more until players are more experienced and they get all of the nuances down. They're just more straightforward to play. The Allied strategy is much more subtle.

[boylermaker]

I've found that this game has a lot of similarities with Fortress America, and I am guessing that balance will be another one. Now my Germans are winning; I'm told that as I play more, my Allies will start winning; my guess is that the advantage will bounce back and forth with experience.

[johnnyonthespot]

I've played three games so far, one against an opponent and two solo. Axis have won each time on turns 4 or 5. This last game, the Axis won on turn four, and I wanted to see what would happen if the game continued. Despite supply problems, the Axis still had 39 victory points at the end of turn 6!

The Allies would have taken about 6-8 of those points back in turns 7 and 8, but I am coming up with some decisive German victories, even when the Allies manage to pull back with few casualties on turn 1 and hold Bastogne.

Playing again tonight against a friend. This time I am going to be the Allies, so we'll see if I can stop the German war machine...

[DocD]

WoW....I'm surprised to see the Allies are getting wiped all over the map.

I've only had time to play one game solo and Germany won that one.

I'm wondering if it's more than just finding the nuiances to an Allied victory.....could this game be unbalanced?

[TrimChris]

I'm wondering if it's more than just finding the nuiances to an Allied victory.....could this game be unbalanced?

I'm still thinking that a lot of people just suck at playing the Americans.

[RuHurt]

I'm finding the Allies extremely hard to win with as well (I play only solo). Even knowing exactly what the German plan is, the Allies just don't seem to have the reinforcements or time to effectively counter, unless they get unusually lucky with the dice. Obviously the Allies require a stronger player to win, but I'm starting to think the game's a bit unbalanced...

[TrimChris]

I really put absolutely zero faith in results from solo games. A different perspective can see so many more counters than a single mind.

And just write-of any results from the first couple of games you play too. Experience adds a whole other level of gameplay.

[johnnyonthespot]

After playing five games, the Allies still have not won. The problem I am finding with an Allied strategy of retreating on turns one and two and creating "hard points" is this:

The Germans can eliminate one or two hard points and then blitz around and seize a few "expensive" towns to the west to claim a 24 point victory. In real life, this condition would be totally unsustainable for the Axis, because those blitzed tanks have no supplies. But under game rules, that is enough to claim an Axis victory.

This is what happened in my last game, though the Axis were never able to take Bastogne or Ortheuville.

I think one thing that would help the Allies is if the rules stated that you had to hold those 24 points for one turn. Those unsupplied tanks in the west would be easy targets for Allied reinforcements.

I haven't given up on the Allies yet, though.

[RuHurt]

That's not a bad idea, actually. In D-Day, the Allies have to hold the VCs for a full turn to win, might not be a bad idea to make the Germans do the same in BotB...

[TrimChris]

When the Germans blitz too aggressively, it is usually easy for the Americans to make the Germans pay. On the American movement, move or reinforce a tank to exert a zone of control against the potential retreat hexes of the tanks that blitzed. If the Germans lose initiative, kaboom! Attack those tanks and watch the single hits take them out. Don't forget the usefulness of blitzing with American tanks to accomplish this, especially ones coming in your reinforcements. Sticking single tanks in nasty places to exert zones of control can bring havoc to the German advancement of their frontline. The Germans also have to use extra supply if they want to knock out these lone tanks in hexes.

There is a lot more to a successful American defense then retreating and hard points.

Setting up trucks and single supply tokens in key hexes to soak up some of the German firepower is another great trick. Sometimes this can backfire, but more often then not, it averages out nicely to keep your troops alive longer.

[MrYuk]

I've had one game the Germans one where they blitz immediately, tanks waited for supplies to catch up, blitz again and by the end of turn 5 the allies were done. Had the Germans not won at that point, they were in big trouble. I would not been able to keep them in gas. Now, the allies made some pretty basic maneuvering errors that allowed the German win. But, all part of the game.

The next game, the Germans had some supremely bad luck on the first fights. Three allied unit survived the initial blow. The impact on this is that it clogged their advance. By the end of turn 4, the Germans only had 9 points and the allies had plugged most major blitz points and the Germans were not able to yet concentrate power. It also didn't help that the Germans lost initiative on turns 2, 3 and 4. After that, it was a turkey shoot.

So a bit of luck, some not-so-good moves and the allies and Germans split 2 games.

[MrYuk]

I've had one game the Germans one where they blitz immediately, tanks

Should be "I've had one game the Germans won where they ..."

Write, read, post... write, read, post...

[Cruelsader]

In my limited experience the win ratio is 2:1 in favour of Allies. However, I have played only three games and despite the allied wins Germans dominated in all the games. Without major German mistakes allies probably would not have won.

After the games I thought that allies were played wrong and searched for better strategies. I found nothing that wasn't already tried in the games I played. I tend to think that the game is a bit unbalanced. You cant effectively blitz behind front or effecitvely disrupt supplies if the German player is competent and has average luck. Allies seem to stand chance only by being a bit more lucky in combat than Germans.

However, I do not agree that Germans are easier or more straightforward to play. Germans have to guess allied move/reinfocement and the supply needs careful attention in late game. It is probably easier to make a fatal mistake with Germans. This may balance the game for average players.

[boersma8]

I think the problem is that as the Germans you can obtain victory points in many different ways...You don't necessarily have to push as far westward as possible, as the objective in the Game is NOT Antwerp, but it was in real life.......Axis seem to have an edge!

[Cruelsader]

I think the problem is that as the Germans you can obtain victory points in many different ways...You don't necessarily have to push as far westward as possible, as the objective in the Game is NOT Antwerp, but it was in real life.......Axis seem to have an edge!

This line of argument is not particularly convincing. Of course axis have an edge - a huge advantage - compared to the situation in real life. Taking 24 points is very realistic while capturing Antwerp is not realistic at all. However, the game was presumably balanced for scattered 24 victory points.

What slightly bothers me - and this is not really related to the question of balance but is related to not having Antwerp as the main objective - is that there is not much incentive for Germans to advance in wedge formation (a la armored fists of real life) or Allies to strongly defend settlements that will be surrounded (a la Bastogne). It is much more useful for Germans to advance the whole front - victory points are all over the map, armored fists are too vulnerable and difficult to supply - and and Allies to leave settlements - staying would be waste of units (no retreat) that are much needed elsewhere.

[boersma8]

While agreeably you put it better than I did, this was basically my point too! :)

[johnnyonthespot]

Played another game yesterday...

I was the Allies, and a player who has never played BotB and has only played A&A and D-Day once whooped my tail, winning on turn four with Germany.

*Sigh*

Germany is now 6-0.

[johnnyonthespot]

I am just curious...

This poll was posted a while ago. Now that people have been playing a bit more, are the Allies winning more often?

In the past, I had seen the Germans get 40-50 points in some games, but I find that the Allies are now holding the Germans to about 27-33 points. They cannot, however, stop the Germans from winning.

What are your game results now?

[TrimChris]

My results have actually been completely consistent. I'm winning regardless of which side I play. 7-0 after 3 games as the Axis and 4 games as the Allies.

[Krieghund]

My results are consistent with Chris's. :D

[TrimChris]

Hey Krieg, are you going to Prezcon in Charlottesville next month?

[Krieghund]

It doesn't look good. I have a major project being installed right around that time.

[frimmel]

The Allies have won two of the last three games I have played. 1 due to Axis error though. Overall the Axis is 9-2.

[mzungu]

With a total of eight games played. The Axis won the first four - no sweat.
Using frimmels strategy the Allies have won 3 of the last 4. So almost even, but the edge goes to the Axis. The first turn results from Axis attacks seems to make the difference in whether or not the Allies have time to regroup and set up a good defense or are backtracking like mad until turn 5.

[Bastogne_Bulldog]

WHat I see hurting the Allies the most is the way movement and reinforcements are handled. The Allies can never recapture a victory city because even if they kill all the Axis units in the city, The Axis player moves and reinforces first, so they can reoccupy the city before the Allied player can do anything. They can even drive a unit from off-board and get there before the Allied units that are sitting adjacent. It seems wrong and plays a major part in the perceived Axis advantage.

Simple fix: Separate movement and reinforcement. Axis player moves, then Allied player; Axis player reinforces, then Allied player.

More radical fix: alternate movement same as combat, one hex at a time.

Just my thoughts.

[mzungu]

Bulldog,
I agree with your thinking that the game might seem to be more fair if alternate movement and reinforcement were allowed. However, play this out a few times solo and see if you still think so. Make certain that you give the Germans the first movement and reinforcement totally on the first turn or the game is over for them. I have been experimenting with this a bit myself and it would be good to see if we get the same results. I thought for awhile that the Allies could never win with the current ruleset. However, I have used the steady reinforcement and blocking strategy proposed by frimmel with good effect. Again the apparent variable in the success of German forces appears to be first attack success.

[frimmel]

WHat I see hurting the Allies the most is the way movement and reinforcements are handled. The Allies can never recapture a victory city because even if they kill all the Axis units in the city, The Axis player moves and reinforces first, so they can reoccupy the city before the Allied player can do anything.

The Allies can reoccupy the city if the Axis doesn't have a supply to spend to move the units back into the city. If you are positioned correctly you may be exerting ZOC over the roads leading into the city preventing reinforcement by truck.

It doesn't happen often I'll grant but it can happen.

[FM_Van_Horn]

I think the major problem with game balance is simple. Germany (the real one) wasn't looking for victory pionts and now Germany (the game one) is. That alone completely changes the strategy the German stratagy. I believe if you look in the rulebook on the map of what the real german captured you will see they could have easily taken 2 or 3 more towns but didn't because they didn't care about those towns. They wanted Anthep. Now playing germany in BotB yes I'm going to take those towns because they mean victory. There is the game balance problem.

[smo63]

The Axis have won every time...

GS:)

[monteeko]

In the several games that I have played, the wins are divided evenly amoung the allies and axis. Both myself and my brother at 20+ year veterans of A&A games. In the games we've played, the German forces weren't able to get quite as far as they had planned, though the skillful positioning of allied forces to slow the advance. When I play (as the allies), I try to pull back to three crucial cities, then slowly fan out from there creating a strong line that slows, then stops the advancing axis forces. Works pretty good.

Players should try different tactics when playing the game to find out what works best for them and for the current situation. Also, players must be flexible enough to give up on a strategy that isn't working and using one that will.

Monteeko

[Bastogne_Bulldog]

The Allies can reoccupy the city if the Axis doesn't have a supply to spend to move the units back into the city. If you are positioned correctly you may be exerting ZOC over the roads leading into the city preventing reinforcement by truck.

It doesn't happen often I'll grant but it can happen.

But even if you are exerting zone of control over the roads leading in, a German tank from off-board can blitz into the city the Germans will always have supply off-board, and usually have a tank reinforcement.

[frwings2]

5 games played so far, 5 victories for the Germans. We tried a couple of tactics. Last game only took 3 rounds. It's very hard for the USA if the germans have a succesfull first round.

Our 4th game was the best, when the Germans captured their first Allied supply token in round 3 or 4. I had a hard time of mananging my supplies with the Germans. This made the game very intense for the German player as well. We might try a resuply for the Germans of only 8 or 7 tokens each turn.

[boersma8]

I think the major problem with game balance is simple. Germany (the real one) wasn't looking for victory pionts and now Germany (the game one) is. That alone completely changes the strategy the German stratagy. I believe if you look in the rulebook on the map of what the real german captured you will see they could have easily taken 2 or 3 more towns but didn't because they didn't care about those towns. They wanted Anthep. Now playing germany in BotB yes I'm going to take those towns because they mean victory. There is the game balance problem.

Amen! Therefore I'd like to have seen Antwerp included on the map, JUST TO SEE HOW FAR GERMANY COUL"VE GOTTEN with ALTERED VICTORY CONDITIONS.....( 1 point per hex further west or the further west you get the higher the point value per occupied hex ec....)

[matiruthy]

Did anybody get to use the planes yet?

[frimmel]

We have got to turn 5 in all but one or two of our games. So yes we've used the planes.

[xxstefanx]

Frimmel has posted a very good overall strat article at http://www.axisandallies.org.

The major fault I made in my first game with allies was to play far too offensively taking unneccessary (initiative) risks considering having the big air advantage in the back.

I would like to add some guidelines to even improve Frimmel's basic outline:
1. Increase Germany's supply consumption!!!
-> Let Germany move westwards freely (without an attack first) as few as possible. Place single units at the front if need be even if you know they are sacrificed to force Germany into attacks! If Germany has to attack on all 9 hexes westwards (almost) all the time it needs (at least) 9 for the attack and 9 on the move and will quickly run into supply issues!

2. Take advantage of weak flanks!!!
-> If you want to be a little more offensive (mostly on occasion) take advantage of the fact that the Allies reinforce after the Germans so you can easily concentrate on weaker targets at the frontline to outnumber them! Never get full scale at the German spearhead before air support is available!!!!!

3. Delay is the key to victory!
-> Delay Germany's speed at all cost: Sacrifice troops (s. 1.), save troops from overwhelmed situations for later more effective use in stacking, block roads (against German tanks), attack weaker spots, move supply away from the front with your trucks, ...everything that slows down Germany's progress and takes you to round 5 to get the planes will improve your chances.

Good luck, Allied Commanders! ;)

P.S.: Last game we even had some German "Ardennes" tanks typically fallen back behind the frontline because of no fuel! :)
Needless to say it was a overwhelming Allied victory! :)

[Photoner Hawkwind]

Has anyone been able to compare this game to the original Battle of the Bulge by AH regarding balance detail of gameplay yet?

[smo63]

OK, we have tried all the strategies posted on the board. The Axis still win. They are too powerful and have way too many pieces on the board. Yeah, it is nice based on the Historical aspect, but as for gaming needs, is way to much...

Now, the question I pose to you the ones playing this game, How do we balance it? Bid for sides? Give US a base amount of units before the game starts?

I am wide open with ideas. I like the bid? What we had in mind is each unit has a value based on there dice rolling value. Infantry (1), tanks (2) and Artillery (3). One can use bid for only these units. One could not bid on trucks and supply...

So, in short, one would bid for the Axis to give a number based on units equaling these values. If the bid ends at 11, then the Allies have 11 total points of units they can place on the board in Hexes they own before the start of play...?

Just an idea?

Fire away...I am interested in your thoughts.

I would really like to come up with something before Origins so that this system might be used for tournament play then and at GEN CON...

Peace,
Greg Smorey
Axis & Allies Tournament GM for WotC/AH: GEN CON/Origins

[raptorov]

We started using a rule whereby the Axis always place aircraft first. After all they do every other action first. It didnt completely even the game out, but we routinely got to turn 7. In one game, none of the northern cities fell.
The Allies really need another set of planes.

By bidding, do you mean for additional reinforcements?

[smo63]

Something like that...and do you mean Allied planes?

Peace,
GS:)

[warspite]

Now that new tactics articles are being posted, time to renew the debate. 16 or so games in, and I'm starting to turn the tide as the Allies. Maybe I'm being too conservative as the Germans now, but I'm getting better at picking good fights as the Allies, and hurting the Germans before it gets out of hand. I played a newb German, and won, so the Germans aren't so strong that even a caveman can win with them ;) See the new thread I've started, and the article, for more.

[frimmel]

I am undefeated as the Axis and 1 and 2 as Allies. I made two mistakes in my last game and my aircraft pretty much missed everything but I took one game to turn 7 and the other to turn 8.

I also haven't been able to get a game in since the end of March.

[bubballiw]

Lost in the last round playing as the axis

[Pasalades]

When I first started playing it seemed like the Axis held all the cards, but once I became familiar with BoB things evened out pretty well. I maintain that the game is fairly well balanced, it's just that the Allies have a steeper learning curve.

[warspite]

When I first started playing it seemed like the Axis held all the cards, but once I became familiar with BoB things evened out pretty well. I maintain that the game is fairly well balanced, it's just that the Allies have a steeper learning curve.

Agreed. I've been playing a fairly orthodox, broad-front strategy for the Germans, with a balance of infantry, armor and artillery in every hex I can for as long as I can, so the Allies can't adjust to concentrations, making every hex dangerous. However, as I'm starting to stop that strategy better as the Allies, I'm seeing other things the Germans can do, like redirecting large armored formations to breakthrough zones, risking loss of armor in blitzes that can bag large Allied positions, so long as a single tank survives any Allied counterattacks, or making that fatal decision of when to abandon costly assaults of Allied strongpoints to divert supplies and reinforcements to weaker sectors and push the lines back (classic breakthrough and encirclement). Even setting up battles that make a first-strike decision difficult for the opponent, whichever side it is. And that's not even taking air into account.

I'm looking forward to playing this more against good opposition at GenCon. Can't make Origins this year, but I'm going mostly for AAM anyway. :o

[Slaynar]

I can not put any stock in a solo game, the oppertunity to "fudge" in the direction of the side you favor the most is way too tempting. I know from my Campaign and Play testing experience on these boards, that alot of people are doing this and a feel it greatly scews the results of the games. Yet I can understand when there are people who have a love for the game and noonto play against... in the end It is going to happen... and I must accept it...

Robert