Blitzing

[wargamer105]

I think I'm playing blitzing rules wrong. According to forums one can stop blitzing by leaving one unit, usually an infantry in a hex, making a continuos line. This doesn't seem to work. I've been playing where you can attack twice from the same hex, as long as you designate which units you are leaving back. Lets say there are 4 tanks in the German hex and 1 infantry in the adjacent hex. The German player says he wants to leave to tanks behind. He pays a supply token and attacks the Allied infantry with two tanks and wins. Then the initative passes to the Allied player and he does something elsewhere on the board. Now it is the Axis turn again. The Axis now pays two tokens and blitzes those remaing two tanks through the old terrritory where the Allied infantry used to be and into the territory beyond, caputring victory points. According to the forums this is not possible? Someone please explain. As it is now the Germans are cleaning up using this strategy.

[Aries]

Blitz occurs during the movement phase, NOT the assault phase. There is no movement at all during the assualt phase.

The continuous line defense works when the line is one hex west of the current front line so that the Germans can only move one hex west during their movement phase. If the Allied line was broken the Germans could force panzers one more hex west through the line.

[Krieghund]

One other important thing to remember is that if you split the units in a hex into multiple attacks, all these attacks must all be resolved before passing the initiative to your opponent (see page 14 of the Operations Manual).

[Yoper]

One thing that I want to get cleared up is the movement of tanks and an enemy-controlled town.

If a tank moves along a road (or cross-country) and enters an empty, enemy-controlled town, it must stop its movement.

Can it move one more hex after the city if it had another supply token spent on it? I.e. Can a tank "blitz" one more hex after it enters a town?

Craig

[Krieghund]

Tanks can indeed blitz after moving into an enemy-controlled city. The blitz action simply adds one hex to a Tank's movement, regardless of why that movement ended.

Happy New Year, Craig!

[Yoper]

Thanks Krieghund!

That's what we went with.

I hope to see you this year at the WBC A&A tournament up in Lancaster, PA.

2007 WBC-
July 31 to Aug. 5, 2007
Lancaster Host
Lancaster, Pennsylvania

[KillerKatarn]

The difference between the movement and combat phase is somewhat confusing to me.

If an attacking force wipes out the defenders during combat, do they get to advance into the territory? This is how it works in other Axis and Allies games, but it doesn't say so in the rulebook.

Thanks

[wargamer105]

Thanks for clearing that up. The way I was playing with blitzing the Allies had no chance. If you eliminate all the units in a defending hex then your forces indeed move in.

[Yoper]

The only movement that occurs in the combat phase is when a unit is forced to retreat.

As the attacker, even if you either kill and/or retreat all of the defending units in a hex, you still do not move into the defending hex at that time.

All movement is done during the movement phase.

Craig

[wargamer105]

Wow, that is a wierd rule about not moving in after destroying all defending units. This AandA is so different from the others. The rulebook is very vague on many of these key points. Kinda frustrating.

[TrimChris]

I think it's more that people start to play with a certain level of assumption about the game mechanics. You have to ignore such assumptions and look at the game as unique (requires careful reading!).

[KillerKatarn]

I find another problem with blitzing: It's essentially useless for capturing VP's until the last turn. If Axis tanks are blitzed through holes in the Allied lines (of which there are many) the advance stalls until supplies can be walked up by trucks (through enemy ZOC's). Until that time, the allies can just bring up reinforcements, and destroy the tanks at their leisure.

[TrimChris]

Blitzing isn't just for the Germans! The Allies can use it to establish unexpected zones of control for the next turn's combat. It's also great for getting reinforcement tanks into key defense positions if the Germans are exerting zones of control over a crucial reinforcement roads just past the hex you want to reinforce.

[Aries]

Played Germany last night and on turn 4 I was able to create a hole in the Allied front line during combat and blitz a Panzer brigade through to win with exactly 24 pts. The Allied player was a little ticked as he was itching to get his aircraft into the battle.

[KillerKatarn]

But my point stands. For the germans, blitzing doesn't do much good until the last turn of the game. (I can see how it would help the allies).

After you blitz those panzers through, they're sitting ducks, unable to attack or move.

[TrimChris]

German blitzing is helpful as well to get reinforcement tanks to an advance hex already in supply if the prior hex is in an Allied ZOC.

Also, sometimes if you're lucky you can blitz German tanks to an Allied hex to capture additional supply that is otherwise out of reach.

Other times, you blitz a German tank to create German zones of control in the Allied backfield to hamper their movement. So what if you can't use it? The point is that blitzing is about more than immediately setting up your tanks for the next round's attack.

[Aries]

Just the threat of the Germans blitzing to exploit weaknesses in the Allied front line is key to winning early. It tends to make the Allieds wary and prevents them from building up strongpoints too early.

[Krieghund]

Blitzing can also allow the Axis to move Tanks to the front lines if there is no road in the hex they're trying to move to, or if the road passes through an Allied ZoC just before it gets there.

[KillerKatarn]

I understand all this. My problem is that racing tanks ahead to capture new ground isn't feasible for the germans. It's just an element of gameplay that's missing.

Read Frimmel's section on blitzing from A&A.org It'll more clearly explain what I'm talking about. Blitzing is nice for moving units around, but not for spearheading a deep attack.

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=8420.0

[TrimChris]

It's missing because the Germans truly didn't have the supplies to make it effective. I think the game simulates that.

Saying that it's too bad the Germans can't race ahead to grab areas is like saying it's too bad the Allied airforce can't start pounding the Germans on turn 1.

[KillerKatarn]

I don't claim to be a historian.

It just seems silly to me that the germans race their tanks at the end, while being unable to do so for the rest of the game.

[eggsaladsandwich]

I don't claim to be a historian.

It just seems silly to me that the germans race their tanks at the end, while being unable to do so for the rest of the game.

This has nothing to do with history.In this game the German "blitz for the win" is a completely artificial result of haveing the aquisition of 24 pts being their winning condition.And where does it say you cant "race" your tanks at any time in the game?:)

[KillerKatarn]

My problem exactly is that this is artificial. I wish this part of the game could be a little more accurate. It's not a big deal, and its a great game, but it is kind of silly for the germans to start blitzing only when the battle is almost over. You can't race your tanks ahead because they become unable to be supplied and destroyed. I think some of my other posts make this clear.

[Caractacus]

My problem exactly is that this is artificial. I wish this part of the game could be a little more accurate. It's not a big deal, and its a great game, but it is kind of silly for the germans to start blitzing only when the battle is almost over. You can't race your tanks ahead because they become unable to be supplied and destroyed. I think some of my other posts make this clear.

Sorry, but I don't agree with you much. I say 'much' because, yes, it IS a pain that sometimes you can't reinforce your tanks, but even then there are sometimes strategic reasons for doing it.

On the other hand, I don't agree because:

1) it forces the enemy's hand - they have to move to block you off;

2) it often blocks roads for trucks bringing much-needed supplies (the Allied movement takes place AFTER the German);

3) you can often move a truck with supplies into the space BEHIND the tank (i.e. into the space that would otherwise end the tank's move). That's enough to keep it/them supplied Simply make sure that the truck is also defended;

4) you can force the Allied player to attack you there, preventing him from making another assault elsewhere even if he wins initiative;

5) if you win the initiative or if your tank(s) survive the first attack (for instance, there's an even more important attack that the Allied player just HAS to do first as above), then you can obliterate any units that cannot retreat due to the ZOC that your tanks exert. Do this by attacking other troops nearby that need that space(or an adjacent one) as their only way out. Turning 'retreat' results into 'destroyed's is an excellent way to turn a situation around - even if it costs you a tank or two.

What do the others think?

[KillerKatarn]

I'd like to give others some time to weigh in. Then I'll respond.

[boylermaker]

It is kind of silly for the germans to start blitzing only when the battle is almost over. You can't race your tanks ahead.You cannot race your tanks ahead because the most fundamental Allied objective is maintaining a blitz-proof line. If you can blitz through their lines, that is a sign that the end is near. So yes, blitzing usually only occurs at the end of the game, but blitzing is more a cause than an effect.

[MrYuk]

From my limited number of games, I see the Germans needing to blitz early, rather than late.

The first turn the Germans blast the Allies the entire length of the front. At least, in the games I've played they have. Then, depending upon how that goes, the Germans surge ahead. This surge has been typically to the north of St. Vith with the intent of surging down the road to Werbomont. I try to make an "enemy free" zone going down that road. That allows me to feed my tanks.

I spend the first 3 to 4 turns pushing ahead as fast as I can along one of the east-west road routes. Sometimes that's Werbomont, sometimes Bastogne, depending upon how that first round goes.

When the allies see that Werbomont could fall, their eyes bug out and they have to shift and move. Very disruptive. This is especially true during the first 3-4 turns as the allies are very thin. I have been able to truck supplies successfully to the Germans at La Roche.

My last game I played, I was the allies and the German player waited too late to blitz. Performed a good blitz, cutting off Bastogne and Troi-ponts (two of my strong points). But, it was late, I pounded trucks and they starved on the vine.

If the Germans don't win this game by turn 6 at the latest, in my opinion, they are doomed.

[frimmel]

My contention is similar to that of TrimChris. Blitzing is a tactical action. You blitz forces to the rear of other similar sized forces to cut them off. And being behind a force is no good unless there is also a force to the front.

It is matter of how you think it best to kill the enemy. Cutting them off at the risk of leaving units out on a limb because they can't be supplied or keeping them on the front where they can be supplied and pounding the snot out of enemy positions with them.

When to blitz is a very key aspect of Germany strategy and Allied Strategy for that matter.

"My problem exactly is that this is artificial. I wish this part of the game could be a little more accurate. It's not a big deal, and its a great game, but it is kind of silly for the germans to start blitzing only when the battle is almost over. You can't race your tanks ahead because they become unable to be supplied and destroyed. I think some of my other posts make this clear." Killer Katarn

I contend that this part of the game is very accurate. I think that there is a misunderstanding over how far units can advance until they must stop and allow their support units to catch up. Read The Blitzkrieg Myth

http://www.amazon.com/Blitzkrieg-Myth-Misread-Strategic-Realities/dp/0060009772/sr=1-1/qid=1167271976/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-7930891-4837762?ie=UTF8&s=books


Didn't our troops in Iraq in the early phases of the conflict stop advance to siege a town on the flank of their supply lines? I seem to recall Generals on TV saying there was no sense in not making sure the supply lines were secure.

Huy is very attractive out there at 5 points. Theoretically reachable in three turns I think (no map in front of me.) Won't win the game for you unless you have the other 19 points only 4 or five between Stadtkyll and Huy on that road.

As I like to say about football, "You don't get points for yardage."

[KillerKatarn]

Thanks for the input.

As I said before, I don't know as much about this as I would like. It's just that when the germans knock a hole in the allied line, the tanks can blitz two spaces and then get crushed (by allied reinforcements or neighboring units).

You need a three hex hole to re-supply the tanks, which is uncommon. As a result, there's a disincentive to blitz ahead.

Maybe this is historical, but it seems strange to me that there's a penalty for exposing a hole in the enemy line.

Yes there are benefits to the blitz, but getting one extra space ahead isn't likely to completely cut off part of the allied line, or the only road to an important town.

Moving trucks up one space behind puts them in an enemy ZOC, where they can be pummeled by air power (especially if this is in the center, where there are fewer troops etc.) and stuck unable to resupply the Germans the next turn. And if the tanks are blitzing out of an enemy ZOC, (still sort of on the front line) the trucks can't make it. Caractacus, the initiative argument doesn't really hold water -- because if the tanks aren't supplied, the allied player doesn't have to waste the initiative by attacking them right away. They're not going to do anything, so he can blow them up at his leisure.

[frimmel]

They can't necessarily be ignored. They are cutting off your retreat. You may want to hit them first to free yourself to back up if you are facing units from multiple hexes.

I contend again that you are buying into the Blitzkrieg Myth. Tanks are all powerful and all you have to do to win is get behind the enemy lines.

Krieghund's sig I think? Generals talk about logistics.

[TrimChris]

Armies getting crushed by sticking out their snout too far has been around forever.

Think of Hannibal's double envelopment. It just reeled in the attack force in right where it wanted and then crushed it from the flanks.

Moving quicklu through a hole in the enemy line is not an automatic success. Especially when there are reserves (or reinforcements) just licking their chops waiting for you to fall in that trap.

[KillerKatarn]

Tanks shouldn't be all powerful.

They should be crushed sometimes. (all units are)

But it seems like anytime tanks blitz forward they are destroyed. Sometimes, there should be benefits to exploiting holes in the line. There are certainly many countless historical examples.

[KillerKatarn]

also, the rule about entering enemy towns reduces the impact of tanks. The idea of using them to sieze objectives arbitrarily after combat is completely over makes no historical sense.

[frimmel]

Not a historian but isn't the purpose of battle to run the bad guys out of town? They might have fought you at the east edge and high tailed clear thru town to the hills in the west. You gonna hang out in the boonies or move into the nice hotel?

How do I put a smiley at the end of that?

[KillerKatarn]

what do you mean?:confused:

[frimmel]

I was trying to be funny and fracking it up. I don't know how to use the emoticons on this forum yet as I've been using this quick reply thing to show I'm just being what I think is friendly.

What I was trying to say/ask is don't a lot of battles happen a bit away from the prize of combat? I think that it makes perfect sense that objectives are siezed after combat and that it does make historical and real world sense. You don't have control during the fighting. You have after the enemy is vanquished. Can't move into the castle when the fighting is going on is my meaning.

[KillerKatarn]

that's generally true. The problem is, the Germans can't wait until all allied troops are destroyed before leisurely walking into towns. If tanks can get into (if not behind lines), grab a town, and create a little chaos, it makes for a much more interesting game.

[frimmel]

Cutting off retreat is one of my favorite things.

[boersma8]

Yes, in my experience cutting of retreats and blocking reinforcements are two of the best possible results of Blitzing. This is often worth losing a tank to ( I agree that blitzing with a LARGE tankforce is a waste of tanks.......). One will accoplish exactly the same and being the Germans you can easily afford losing a number of tanks

[TrimChris]

Yes, in my experience cutting of retreats and blocking reinforcements are two of the best possible results of Blitzing. This is often worth losing a tank to ( I agree that blitzing with a LARGE tankforce is a waste of tanks.......). One will accoplish exactly the same and being the Germans you can easily afford losing a number of tanks


Unless the single tank that blitzed gets killed quickly next round. Then it didn't accomplish the same thing that several tanks might have. I'd probably not often risk more than the one tank myself though.

[Aries]

In my last game the Allieds (me) blitzed one tank (all that was in range) between a hole in the German lines to take back a 1 pt town in turn 6.

On turn 7 the Germans were able to gain 23 pts (drove out Allieds from two 3 pt towns)and all they needed was this town. If it held it would prevent a Turn 7 win. After aircombat, the only thing that could attack the tank was one infantry regiment.

The Germans got initative and rolled a 6 :eek: Game over.