North Africa Playing

[buddha_mcleod]

I want to play some North Africa games and I need some suggestions from the history buffs. I was thinking I might play a couple of different years up to 42, and i want to buy some singles to play as my collection is limited. So far i think i need some stug's, and some 38(t)'s. Im pretty sure there was not tiger's or panthers in the deserty. Wut about panzer ausf G? Also for the brits i only see crusader and valentine, and humber, and stuart. Could i use american units like the M3 and sherman? I wil probably bring anything italian, but wasn't 39 only italian vs commonwealth? so if i played a 39 should no german force be included? I'm not worried about inf, i'll use anything in year, including Aussies!

I also was wondering about maps, no desert maps yet, and telling me to go to the beach isn't helping :P

Lastly, how is the balance going to look? The only huge factor i see is that the elite panzers are really powerful, but so are the humber and stuart. Not quite sure how this scales to year either.

Thanks!

[Cpt. John Miller]

I saw a documentary that showed Tigers introduced to the Afrikorps kicking the hell out of the U.S. at Cazarean pass, and such. The U.S. had no ordinance that could knock it out at range at that time.

[buddha_mcleod]

Really? thats interesting, i didn't know that. I do know that i read in a book that there were something like 5 early church's delivered to the desert, but much too early as they faced mechanical problems and didn't see much action. Probably going to stay away from these units, if not just because they would be so expensive for me to get!

[Sheppard1972]

Tiger 1 started production in August 1942 and the Panther started production in 1943 before the battle of Kursk. The Lee was used in the desert and if you wait for some of the main posters to read and reply they will help you quite a bit.:D

[mattertoenergy]

I want to play some North Africa games and I need some suggestions from the history buffs. I was thinking I might play a couple of different years up to 42, and i want to buy some singles to play as my collection is limited. So far i think i need some stug's, and some 38(t)'s. Im pretty sure there was not tiger's or panthers in the deserty. Wut about panzer ausf G? Also for the brits i only see crusader and valentine, and humber, and stuart. Could i use american units like the M3 and sherman? I wil probably bring anything italian, but wasn't 39 only italian vs commonwealth? so if i played a 39 should no german force be included? I'm not worried about inf, i'll use anything in year, including Aussies!

For Axis vehicles I'd say use principally Panzer IVG's, Panzer IV D's (to stand in for E's and F1's) and Panzer III's as well as a few Panzer II's and SdKfz 222's. According to FOW's Afrika book, only a couple of StuG's were used in the desert. You can useTigers as well, but only for battles in Tunisia.

The Brits can use U.S. vehicles as well, but only after El Alamein in late '42. I believe the some Churchill's were used in Tunisia as well.

I'll let others fill you in more on the gaps of my info. I'd do some research but I'm rather tired:) .

[Grenzewolf]

If you use the Late theater operations of the 5th Panzer Armee ( I think thats correct) You will want to include the Brit 17 pounder that was introduced in Afrika shortly after. It saved their Bacon from the rampageing Tigers at the Mezger Line. (grrrr I know thats not the right name. Need to crack a book)

[carl_brisgamer]

The Desert war started in 1940 when the Italians invaded Egypt from Libya and promptly got their asses kicked by the Western Desert Force and particularly the Australian 6th Division. Beda Fomm is one of the better known battles of the early period. The Australians used universal carriers to conduct a 'cavalry' charge on Eyetie positions. The capture of Bardia was another famous battle - 30,000 Italians killed or captured for the loss of 130 Australians KIA.

Rommel did not arrive in Libya until February 1941. The 5th Light Division formed the bulk of his DAK. The Division was built around two tank battalions,
a reconnaissance battalion, an anti-tank battalion and an artillery battalion, all from the 3rd Panzer Division, plus the independent 200th Infantry Regiment. From army level troops came a motorized machine gun battalion, and two anti-aircraft battalions. Most of their tanks were light PzI and PzII types.

For Western Desert scenarios (not Tunisia) 1941-42:

Units for the British 8th Army:

1941
Crusader II
Valentine II
M3 Stuart
Humber Scout Car
Universal Carrier
Inspiring Lt
Inspiring Hero
SMLE No.4 MkI
Veteran SMLE
Gurkha Riflemen
Bren gunner
Vickers MG
Royal Engineers
Concealed forward observer
40mm Bofors
Supermarine Spitfire MkI

The British also used several models of Cruiser tanks, A9's and A10's. I have used the Tetrach as an accepatble stand in for these types, just ignore the gliderborne SA. The Mathilda MkII also saw considerable service but AAM doesn't have one yet so the Valentine II will have to suffice.

1942 add
M3 Lee/Grant
M4A1 Sherman
Jeep
6pdr ATG


Units for Deutsche Afrika Korps (DAK):

1941
PzIIC
PzIIIF
Elite PzIVD
Sdkfz 222
SPW 250
SPW 251
sGrW 34 81mm Mortar
Sandbagged Machine-Gun Team
Messerschmitt Me110
Disciplined Spotter
88mm Flak 36
Panzergrenadier
Light Mortar
Mauser Kar 98k
Messerschmitt Bf109E
BMW R75
20mm Flak 38
Wehrmacht Expert Sniper
Wehrmacht Veteran Infantrymen
Grizzled Veteran
sIG 33
PAK 38 Antitank Gun

1942 add
Marder II
Panzer IV Ausf. G
PAK 40 Antitank Gun
Wehrmacht Oberleutnant
MG 42 Machine-Gun Team


All Italian units may be used 1940-42.

It is interesting to note considerable use was made of captured equipment during the Western Desert campaign, one of the Australian Infantry Divisions had a couple of squadrons of captured Italian M13/40's on their books at El Alamein.

[Wiking_5]

tiger 1 did see acton with the H.G. division and did ingage with churchills late in the campign when i find the source i will post it

[Zar]

At the siege of Tobruk, the british used Stuarts,Grants/Lees,Valentines and Crusaders

The Italians only choice is the M13. They also had the Semovente but it is not a mini model.

The Germans had the Marder II but no PZ IVg, they had the e model. The PZ III h and j were also available. The current mini set is either to weak or to powerful to match up to historical. But you can compensate with the elite pz IV and the Stug even though there were not present in large amounts.

Use the 88 as much as you can but what really hurts is no MG42, they had the MG34 only.

[Krimsonstarr]

tiger 1 did see acton with the H.G. division and did ingage with churchills late in the campign when i find the source i will post it

You can watch an entire DVD about it if you want:

http://www.pegasus-records.com/video/cromwell/images/1036.jpg

[Y2UAsk]

MG34 was a better weapon, however. In use, the two were basically identical, with the 34 being more durable and reliable, the 42 easier to maintain in the field. MG42 used the same mechanism but with a simplified manufacturing process so they could be turned out faster and cheaper. I wouldn't give a second's thought to their differences in AAM.

The most interesting segment of the Desert War (to me, anyway) were the two German offensives that see-sawed around eastern Libya. If you used only PzIIIs (mostly), Marders (wrong Marder, but acceptable), 88s, and a few PzIV Ds for the Germans, M13/40s for the Italians, and Stuarts, Crusaders, Valentines, and Grants for the British, you'd be fine.

Tigers appeared in Tunisia but never in Libya, IIRC. Tunisia was their first use against the Western Allies.

Steve

[Y2UAsk]

Light ATGs were also ubiquitous. The PaK38 and 6-lber should be everywhere. (The British pulled off a brilliant action at one point by driving a battery of 6-lbers, under cover of darkness, into the heart of a German tank laager. When the sun rose, they opened fire, destroying tank after tank from their surrounded position, protected only by the drifting dust and smoke from the battle. When their guns were finally all knocked out, they re-boarded their remaining trucks and slipped away in the confusion.)

The British also used an expedient mount for their ATGs, called en portee, in which they mounted 2- and 6-lbers in firing position (facing the rear) on flatbed trucks (sort of proto-technicals). The negative aspect was their high silhouette and no protection against small arms; the advantage was that they could be put into action immediately and displaced on a moment's notice. Basically, there were unarmored tank destroyers. I'd love to see one in AAM (along with the Matilda). You could simulate it easily enough by giving the 6-lber speed 2 and Strike & Fade 2.

Steve

[Grenzewolf]

The British also used an expedient mount for their ATGs, called en portee, in which they mounted 2- and 6-lbers in firing position (facing the rear) on flatbed trucks (sort of proto-technicals). The negative aspect was their high silhouette and no protection against small arms; the advantage was that they could be put into action immediately and displaced on a moment's notice. Basically, there were unarmored tank destroyers. I'd love to see one in AAM (along with the Matilda). You could simulate it easily enough by giving the 6-lber speed 2 and Strike & Fade 2.

Steve

Seems the Brits realy ran with the concept in the Archer. Probably a leasons learned.

[MarcusAurelius]

The Matilda and M10 Wolverine are two of the most glaring omissions in AAM.

The British Matilda II infantry tank served on just about every front — including France, North Africa, Russia and the Pacific — throughout WWII. By 1943, almost 3,000 Matilda tanks had entered into service.

The M10 made its combat debut during the North African campaign and was arguably the most important U.S. tank destroyer of the war, with total production exceeding 7,000. Audie Murphy won his Medal of Honor when he used the .50 cal MG of a burning M10 to repel a German infantry attack.

[flooglestreet]

The krauts had some paratroopers in North Africa at the end of the campaign, so add fallshirmjaegers to the DAK list, for 42 scenarios. They were not dropped by air.

[buddha_mcleod]

House Ruling
Changing MG 42 to MG 34, 1939 unit, thought about changing stats, but decided to house rule as little as possible.
SMLE changed to 1939 unit, so UK has more INF, don't think that its overpowered as that anyways.
Adding UK QF 2 Pdr-
Using 47 mm Type 1 as mini
Speed: 1 Def: 3/3 1939 (8) pts
AI 3/3/3 AT 9/8/6
Limited Range 6

Did the speed because the 2 pdr was much more mobile than most atg's, felt that S+F would just be too powerful. I killed the range because i want to feel the upgrade when i pull in 6pdr's.

Tetrach= A9/10 1939 (after my friends and I pondered this, we realized that it brings an uncommon tank to UK, besides the stuart, that is easy for us to get ahold of and we were all for the idea!)

[carson]

Light ATGs were also ubiquitous. The PaK38 and 6-lber should be everywhere. (The British pulled off a brilliant action at one point by driving a battery of 6-lbers, under cover of darkness, into the heart of a German tank laager. When the sun rose, they opened fire, destroying tank after tank from their surrounded position, protected only by the drifting dust and smoke from the battle. When their guns were finally all knocked out, they re-boarded their remaining trucks and slipped away in the confusion.)

The British also used an expedient mount for their ATGs, called en portee, in which they mounted 2- and 6-lbers in firing position (facing the rear) on flatbed trucks (sort of proto-technicals). The negative aspect was their high silhouette and no protection against small arms; the advantage was that they could be put into action immediately and displaced on a moment's notice. Basically, there were unarmored tank destroyers. I'd love to see one in AAM (along with the Matilda). You could simulate it easily enough by giving the 6-lber speed 2 and Strike & Fade 2.

Steve

The portees are easy enough to make. All you do is cut the rocket launcher off a Katyusha, cut a 6lb free of it's base, combine the two and paint as desired. In addition you may want to add some side plating on either side of the gun (all pics I've ever seen of these show low soilid panels). My own 6 include these + a converted Aussie as a crewman. If I owned a digital camera I'd post some pics....

[Y2UAsk]

Except I'd rather have a Katyusha than an en portee 6-lber. :)

Steve

[buddha_mcleod]

Thanks for all the help guys, I think this is going to be a lot of fun. LOTS of thanks especially for the list, and the use of ATG's is definately going to be included. I don't exactly have the # of italian troops I want to play this, but I am adding some more things, such as the "Breda MG" for italy, which will be the Type 92 Japanese MG. Also will be kind and give Italy ONE Cannone da 90/53 (the '88'). A person i talked to said that they are easily compared, except not many of them existed and he suggested adding one. Plus all of the house rules above, including the 2pdr.

Thanks for the help, when i do this i will make a new thread and hopefully post some pics. Going to run it as a campaign now.

1. 1940 Sidi Barrini: Italy vs. UK 100pts. vs 100pts. Objective worth 20 more pts reinforcement for stage 2
2. 1941 El Agheila: Remaining Italy + 80pts. German Reinforcement vs. Remaining UK + 80pts. Reinforcement
Objective worth 20 more pts reinforcements for stage 3
3. 1942 El Alamein: Remaining Italy and Germany + 80pts Germany Reinforcement vs. Remaining UK + 80 pts UK Reinforcement (Adding Grants and Shermans to available UK Reinforcements)

WINNER!