NEW! Best Tank For UNDER 20 Points..........?

[Cpt. John Miller]

The obvious winners of the last poll were the VERY popular Elite Panzer IV, and the M3 Stuart. Let's see who's playing the other little guys.

[zkraut]

STUG ALL THE WAY!


Love em for flanking and swarming with. Very nice unit that can handle infantry and tanks (if you have 2+) only for 15 points. 4/3 defense is pretty nice also.

I like it better than the elite panzer, the elite panzer is waay too weak when it comes to defense.

[Surfer_Sam]

La Renault. Rather have two of them then anything

[FSSF]

I voted for the M3 Stuart last time. Stug III this time around. The Somua is a very nice tank for 14 points.

[Predator666]

I love the wirbelwind. If you can get it to face infantry it will rip them apart and can protect itseft against planes.

[oddfellow]

Stug! Stug! Stug! Stug! ... I love that stubby little bastard!

[fifleche]

I just love the Valentine II.

5/5 defense is what does it for me. It is pretty tough to take out without involving heavy tanks, as the 5 rear defense gives it better survivability against CA than most tanks. Sure, you get crappy dices against infantry, but who cares? At that price, you can afford other pieces for that. Just watch the little tough bugger slow down a whole column of enemy vehicles because they can't ignore those 9 dices AT attack and can't deal with it quickly!

[Colonel_Coo]

That Wirbelwind is the air beneath my wings. Awesome FlaK and Anti Soldier. 6 DICE on TANKS which puts crimps into Jeeps and Half-tracks, rear armor of light tanks etc.

[Qmark]

Goliath!
(that's a tank, right?)

[Vikingwarrior]

... I love that stubby little bastard!

HEEEYYY!! Put that thing away. :D

[horacus]

STUG ALL THE WAY!


Love em for flanking and swarming with. Very nice unit that can handle infantry and tanks (if you have 2+) only for 15 points. 4/3 defense is pretty nice also.

I like it better than the elite panzer, the elite panzer is waay too weak when it comes to defense.

Agree.;) One of the best Axis options for 1941.

[mu11etboyz93]

I wanna vote stuart, but it aint up there!
how could you leave him out!?

[Cpt. John Miller]

I wanna vote stuart, but it aint up there!
how could you leave him out!?

Read my first posting that decribes this poll.
There was another poll originally, and the stuart and the panzer IV were the favs. No need to tell you why. This is the "best of the rest" poll.

[Richter von Manthofen]

Stug all the way.

Like the valentine too because of his armor value. Once needed three Elite IV to keep it away from the objective... (game lost on points, but won by objective control)

And the Wirbelwind once gave my Paras a hard time.

Somua is nice too, but never used it - or had it on the other side, so can't really say...

[Patton 68]

I voted Valentine II (I'm with fifleche...5/5 def is to sweet,and especially early war) but the S 35 is a close second for me.

[horacus]

The indiscuted winner by now is the Stug 3. What seems weard to me is that the BT-7 has no recived even a vote. And well, i spected the result of 0 votes for the flamingo.

[cannonfodder]

I voted Flamingo - all by myself - I've had this little tank chasing around much bigger units just with the possibility that it might roll 3 6s. That's one of the things that makes a great unit great, the ability to chase away units that would rather run away than face it.

[Predator666]

I'm also surprised the BT-7 hasn't gotten a vote yet. I woulda thought a lot of Soviet players or players in general would have voted for that nice little tank.

[fifleche]

I can't beleive the Wirblewind gets so much votes. What an overpriced monstruosity! I mean, it usually dies on round one to planes!!! Unless you keep it in double-cover, where the planes have to get closer, and then you'd be better off buying a Quad 50 or a Bofors for much less.

I'm really flabberghasted about that one, guys...

[Alpino]

Stug all the way.:)

[Rick]

I had to think hard and long about this before I could make a vote. Eventually, I split it into Allies then Axis categories. It was then that I found myself with an apparent differences in expectations between the two sides.

With the Axis I found the choice rather easy: either the Flak Panzer or the Stug III. The Turan I is just not competative: poor rear armor, and AT stats that are a yawn. The Panzer II F is just too little punch, though the flamethrower does get your attention.
I LOVE the AI stats of the Flakpanzer, and it is nice to have solid AA stats as well. Ya gotta keep those P-51's and Yak's in line. But the three speed, is only average, and the 3/3 armor is not much to brag about. The final piece was, it's 19 points.

I USE the Stug III nearly every time I play Germany. 8/8/8 for AI stats are enough to give the Allie player pause to reflect. 10/9/8 for AT stats in early war games make it competative. Seasoned crew is a nice stat. And, it's the only early war German tank with a 4 frontal defense. Plus, for 15 points, I can get a Mauser-Kar. OK.. Stug beats Flakpanzwer.

The Allies present a wider variety of tanks designed to achieve different tasks. Sorry, but the BT-7 was not designed to be like the Valentine. It's comparing apples to mangos. Blast! [the Flakpanzwer is not like the Stug III nor like the Turan I! Why should it matter?! I don't know, it just does.]

For the Soviets, it's the T-35 land boat errr.... land Battleship, the BT-7 speed boat, and finally the SU-76. The T-35 is slow, and it's a 2 rear defense. OUT! The SU-76 and the BT-7 are different and frankly, I like them both. They play in different years, so they face different forces. Hummmm, but my vote goes to....... the BT-7. Fast, ok armor for being fast, and a very nice AT punch for early war. Combine that with the speed and the Germans have to watch for a rear attack. It's also five points less, so that's one more of any infantry, or the cavelry or the ATR or the Commisar.

That leaves the Western Allies options: Valentine, Souma, and the M-22. The M-22 is a late war entry, and while it's very nice for it's particular task. It cannot stand up to any serious AT presence. Though I do use it in a 'seize the objective' role and delay the enemy approaches. But I also expect it to die quickly. So, while I like it, it does not make 'the cut'.

That leaves the British Valentine and the French Souma. On first consideration, the Souma seems the obvious choice; it's cheap at 14 points, Good AT for early war, 4/4 defense is respectable, 4 speed is good [hey, it beats most German early war tanks!] Then I see the SA. OUCH! It may not fire when disrupted?! Hold the train here, so, it may not move and NOW, it may not even fire back? Hummmm.....

The Valentine is slower (3 vs 4), costs more 16 vs14, less AI 5/5/4 vs 6/6/4, less AT 9/8/6 vs 10/8/7. OK, it's not much less, but, it's lower over all. But the defense is very nice 5/5 which for early war is only matched by the French Char-B. Now, for the important step, are there any nice SA's here? A quick glance says, NO, NONE, NADA! Nothing like Strike and Fade, or High Gear, or Extra Range, or Seasoned Crew. Then again, there's nothing negative either. This is a completely plain Jane tank.

So I can pick between a Prima Donna nice hitting tank or something with less flash but more substance. Oh it's the tank version of who do you like better: Betty or Veronica, Velma or Daphene, Mary Ann or Ginger, Midwest Pot Roast or Nuevo French Cuisine. Ok ok I'm carrying this on way too far. I choose...... the Valentine. Sometimes it isn't the fancy stuff, but getting everything done right and reliably.

So, now I'm down to the BT-7 vs the Valentine. Here it comes easy. The all round 5 defense rules. Substance over quickness.

Valentine vs Stug III: again, two different tanks, and technically one's not even a tank. The Stug III is an assult gun. Turrent, non-turrent. Nice SA in seasoned crew, no SA what so ever. My vote came down to what game stats I had in front of me. I voted the for Valentine; better defense numbers, and turrent flexibility.

In real life game terms, I pick the Stug III. I simply use it more. It's better AI stats keep it in the game from introduction to the end years. the Valentine is around for France 1940 and some desert battles in North Africa. Some how, I think my vote will be something like Car & Driver electing the Renault 'Le Car' as Car of the year in 1980 [I think it was 1980] Then it looked brilliant, now it looks bone head. What were they thinking?

[Lotus]

All things accounted for, I picked the Stug, despite how much I like the Wirbelwind.

Stug is good against infantry and tanks for it's price. As tanks go, that counts for alot. AA is for support units.

[Hiro]

Carro Armato, best bang for the buck tank in the game, so it explodes often. It is combat effective.

[Joisey]

I voted for the BT-7. Great Early War tank.

[FreeFrench]

I can't beleive the Wirblewind gets so much votes. What an overpriced monstruosity! I mean, it usually dies on round one to planes!!! Unless you keep it in double-cover, where the planes have to get closer, and then you'd be better off buying a Quad 50 or a Bofors for much less.

I'm really flabberghasted about that one, guys...

Actually it's a great vehicle for taking out super infantry like Rangers. And if Germany could buy the Bofors I'm sure they would, every time, it's a great unit for 9 points, but then germany can't buy it, can they? Nor can Germany buy a Quad 50 so I guess that blows your little theory out of the water. They've got access to that Flak 20 or the 88mm that doesn't move. Otherwise there are the venerable Luftwaffe Infantrymen that could probably hit a soaring barn door and little else. OK, so I use them every now and again but still, they're near sighted and they have pretend guns.

[Richter von Manthofen]

To break a lance for the Wirbelwind - all other German tanks (under 20 points) have such a lousy armor, so they are all taken out by planes ;) The Wirbelwind will likely take the plane with him.

The Valentine is good at absorbing damage but its punch is too weak, so I am not surprised by stug s sucess here.

The BT-7 is so new, I think it would get more votes if we had more experience with it.

[XAos]

With an ammo dump, M-3 Stuart
Without, Pvkw-IVd

Neither of which was in the poll...

[Richter von Manthofen]

With an ammo dump, M-3 Stuart
Without, Pvkw-IVd

Neither of which was in the poll...


this is a follow up poll where those two baby you faver were voted the best. Now we decide for third place ;)

[oddfellow]

I had to think hard and long about this before I could make a vote. Eventually, I split it into Allies then Axis categories. It was then that I found myself with an apparent differences in expectations between the two sides.


Okay, I snipped down your quote to save space... just wanted to thank you for a very good post. I enjoy the fact that there are some wonderful posters like yourself who take the time to write "articles" about the game that are entertaining and well thought out. Its like having a free magazine to my favorite game.

[MarcusAurelius]

Okay, I snipped down your quote to save space... just wanted to thank you for a very good post. I enjoy the fact that there are some wonderful posters like yourself who take the time to write "articles" about the game that are entertaining and well thought out. Its like having a free magazine to my favorite game.

Agreed. There's some great analysis here. I try to take the same approach in evaluating units with similar capabilities and point costs.

[Cpt. John Miller]

With an ammo dump, M-3 Stuart
Without, Pvkw-IVd
Neither of which was in the poll...

read the poll descrition- the first posting, by me

[fifleche]

And if Germany could buy the Bofors I'm sure they would, every time, it's a great unit for 9 points, but then germany can't buy it, can they? Nor can Germany buy a Quad 50 so I guess that blows your little theory out of the water. So, what you're saying is that the Wirblewind should be voted "best (of the rest) for under 20 pts" because the Axis don't have access to the good pieces???

I'm not buying it. The Wirblewind is worse than those other two AAA units, so it -only- sees play because it's the best Germany has access to. No place IMHO in any kind of "best of" in the TANKS department, as pretty much ANY OTHER tank could take it out, with the exception of the 7tpDw perhaps. Support unit? I suppose, but not as tank.

[Rick]

Oddfellow & MarcusAurelius, thank you for you kind comments. I very much enjoy this game and what it tries to achieve, flaws and all. In re-reading what I wrote, I find myself still thinking about what I wrote in the end, "What was I thinking?"

Logic is all fine and good. But, perhaps, I should give more weight to what do I actually use more in picking my forces. I've only picked the Valentine for combat in France 1940 senerios. The Stug III is one of those pieces where I find myself nearly always thinking, how can I work this into my force? Sometimes, I don't pick it. But, more often than not, I include one if not two into my force. It's just that handy. It usually dies around mid-game, but by that time, it's done what I've needed it to do. Which in the end is perhaps the best we can say of any piece we pick. It does the job.

Once again, thanks for the compliements. It's been a bad shift at my work tonight and coming home to read those comments made my day a bit brighter. Thanks.

Rick