balance adjustment

[Frog]

I've been playing Japan, giving the allies no sneak attack except on the U.S. and doing the alternate set up suggested by Avalon Hill. Sometimes I even spot the other player money, 10-12 IPC's. The games played this way have been close, very close. No adjustment of victory points.

I was wondering if anyone has played with some of the new rules in Pacific?

I am mostly thinking about carrier and fighter cost, 3-3 tanks, and destoyers not have shore bombardement or transporting.

I'm not sure if these are to many changes. has anyone tried these changes??

[Zero Pilot]

It really does depend on your opponents experience. You should examine the possibility of employing an (all-out) "India Crush" as Japan sometime Gravy. After hitting everything you can reach J1 (of course), this amounts to focusing everything towards India in subsequent rounds. Everything! Just forget about the island hopping, forget about engaging the US navy any more than you have to (past J1)... you can easily "outrun" 'em and they won't have the time to catch you, make it to your mainland or do much of anything but react. Don't even stray off your path to India to pick up offhand territories for IPC value... just send everything towards India - all transports, the Tokyo Express, the whole nine yards. Purchase fighters. Your first stop is the Phillipines, the second is Malaya, and the third and final is a massive assault in India, possibly for the game (depending on whether your opponent sees it coming) ! I'll just say that this is a "whole different ballgame"! I regularly play against an opponent who very recently perfected the "Crush", utilizing the Tokyo Express to great advantage (hint-hint) carrying 6 more Japanese infantry to Calcutta's doorstep. Defense against the "Crush" amounts to a mere 3 rounds of fairly "reactionary" purchase and play by the allies in preparation for the J4 massive amphibious assault on India. All convoy cash goes to India with infantry heavy purchases but includes a requisite sub purchase UK1 to sub-stall the Japanese transports on turn 3. If you don't buy that sub, you're down to 2 rounds of allied purchase and play... facing the massive India amphibious assault on J3 instead... yikes! (Well actually, you're pretty much doomed if you don't buy that sub against the "India Crush".) US purchases against the "Crush" amounts to 5 bombers out of Hawaii A1. AUS buys fighters only, saving the balance for next turns fighter(s). The UK forces need to reinforce or retake Celebes, since this is the most forward point you can land bombers coming out of Hawaii. This is assuming of course, the Phillipines is currently stocked to the teeth by Japanese forces, with both land and sea untouchable. The Aussie fighters go to India, the US bombers land in Asia with Chinese ground forces. Well, I don't want to give away the whole strategy for either side... it's alot of fun to perfect the "Crush" and also to find the best play against it. But I've kinda outlined the gist of it... along with a couple hints on defense for when your opponent gets the idea too and tries the "India Crush" on you! Last game my opponent finally streamlined the "Crush" to absolute perfection, and I've now almost perfected my defense of it. It took that game for me to learn exactly what I need to do next time. I damn near staved it off as it is... think they held India with 4 artillery to win the game. Very close close and exciting indeed... coming right down to dice rolls. One of the things I will do differently next time is to fly the UK fighter straight off the carrier in SZ54 (I think) to India. I know this goes against conventional thinking perhaps (leaving your carrier as a "stick" out there like that), but like I say the allies are in a "reactionary" mode against the "Crush" (5 bombers A1 is a pretty good clue about that!) Well just a couple thoughts and ideas to chew on here anyway. Pacific is the best game of the A&A series in my opinion (and why I'm a Zero Pilot.) But the "India Crush" will open your eyes to the power and position given Japan, and your opponent will surely be playing stategic catch up. Hope this helps. Have fun and good luck! ~ZP

[richyj1]

That India Crush defense is sub-optimal.

UK should build a carrier UK1, then 2 US ftrs can land on it US1. By UK3 you will have moved it within 4 spaces of India, so that on US3 the ftrs can make it.

Don't buy any subs with India. Keep the SZ 54 sub in place, it can move to SZ 53 (w/ the UK BB moving to SZ 52) if needed to delay the J3 invasion, if needed.

The SZ 50 UK fleet goes to SZ 49 UK1, to meet up with the Queensland ftr. These ftrs then go to India UK2.

If anyone is interested in seeing good Japanese VP wins (typically 25 VPs), I invite you to play some of the experienced players over at Days-OF-Infamy (http://www.days-of-infamy.com)

[richyj1]

To be fair, though, the defence of India outlined above precludes stopping Japan from a 22 VP win (basically, Japan looks at the odds of an India invasion, says "no", and goes for an easy VP win). Thus, most games at DOI are played at the 24-25 VP level.

Rich

[gravy44]

Frog, I too have been playing Japan quite a bit and I feel that the game seems to favour the allies more. I know I've read alot about Japan's dominance but I just don't see it. My buddy is an excellent A&A player and if your patient and you purchase properly-the Allies become way to powerfull to handle. Its impossible for Japan to hold the Islands, French Indochina, China and at the same time, hold off the American threat into the Heart of Japan. We have never changed the rules and we find it hard for Japan to hold after the fourth round. Japan seems to lose ground quickly as there are just too many fronts for them to handle. Most of our games go right to the very last round where Japan is at 20 and needs 2 more VP to win. I have pulled off a few victories but so have the Allies. We like the balance in the game the way it is. If the Allies are played properly, its a slow death for Japan. Frog, just telling you my expereinces-not sure what type of player your playing against but it can make a big difference.

[Zero Pilot]

Hmm... interesting Rich. Of course I am not the expert that you are in P (and I mean that very sincerely and complimentary btw.) I'm a member at DOI as well, but have yet to play any games online. So probably like Gravy, I don't play with a bid (yet.) Sounds like that makes all the difference in the world with regards to your above strategy. Given the fact that my thoughts were presented for a no bid game, kinda wondering your opinion... can I do something better? It was a very close game the last time. And in fact before our last game I was still (as of yet) unable to "convince" my opponent how sub-stalling is truly supposed to work. They were convinced that sub-stalling is simply putting up a picket of subs in front of your capital ships. So at first they didn't buy it. Well, actually they still don't really buy it to be honest. Rather, they are convinced this is all just a clever loophole "invented" by type-a players to take advantage of (in their opinion) "ambiguous" wording in the rulebook... and apparently it doesn't matter what the AH FAQ's say about it either! (Don't ya hate that?) But after an e-mail with a link to the DOI page explaining sub-stalling in detail (which is great btw, and necessary) at least they've sort of come around to the fact that this is how "the rest of the world" plays the game. So even facing the "Crush" on turn 3 as I was, it was still very close game. It came down to the rolls and like I say they pulled it out and held India with 4 artillery. So at least our next game I should have another full turn at it! So I think with that and the lessons learned, I will have them next time. What do ya think? Can I do something better in defense of the "Crush" in a non-bid situation? I'm all ears!. :D Thanks. ~ZP
p.s. oh, btw we use the std. "card" setup for Japan as well... yeah, I know. :rolleyes: I plan to JIG him next time I roll Japan. But as you can tell, "deviations" from the box are an extremely hard sell with my opponent (and aparently sub-stalling is even a deviation from the box!)

[richyj1]

Well, to be honest I'm not one of the best players at DOI - I lose with regularity to the 'best' players.

No bid AND original setup? :eek: I am, frankly, amazed that you were able to do as well as you describe - in that situation, a good Japanese player should only lose to horrid dice. With those 2 extra inf in FIC Japan ought to be able to take and hold Siam, which can then be used as a fighter base for the India invasion...

If you'd like to play a PBEM game at DOI, I'd be happy to show you the ropes. I think you'll enjoy it.

[richyj1]

Well, actually they still don't really buy it to be honest. Rather, they are convinced this is all just a clever loophole "invented" by type-a players to take advantage of (in their opinion) "ambiguous" wording in the rulebook... and apparently it doesn't matter what the AH FAQ's say about it either! Well, to be honest it was kinda a clever loophole invented... Michael Sandy started using it in Axis & Allies: Europe games as a way of preventing Sea Lion, then used it during the Axis & Allies: Pacific playtesting. Rob didn't close the loophole in the manual, and there you have it...

Rob (and Larry) are both on record opposing it, but by that time it was fairly firmly in the community. When WotC took over and added it to the FAQ (along with the link to James Redford's writeup (DOI member 'Teeth and Tissue') it mostly settled the issue, but not completely.

BTW AH website types: I'm told by James the link you're using may not be around for much longer, as he is no longer at that school. Instead, use: http://www.days-of-infamy.com/substall/index.htm

[Zero Pilot]

I know I would really enjoy PBEM play at DOI, thanks for your offer. I may just take you up on it. I thought maybe need to hone my skills a bit first before venturing into Pacific PBEM, but as you imply I guess there are probably players of all skill levels to be found. I had heard that Larry himself never intended sub-stalling to be part of a subs ability. But it kinda seemed to me to maybe be an intentional inclusion in the rules in P to balance the Tokyo Express. Like you say, you are indeed very extremely hard pressed to stop Japan in 3! Of course only purchases and moves to specifically stop the "Crush" were even remotely considered on my part. Very focused!

So you're saying that sub-stalling can be found in the Europe rulebook too (or was this just played as an optional)? I don't have a copy of E yet to check, but it appears I may be in for another round of um, discussion in the near future. Whooboy!

Anyway, appreciate your reply. I will look you up at DOI sometime in the near future and you can show me the PBEM ropes (I'm Zero Pilot there as well.) Thanks. ~ZP

[richyj1]

Yes, there are a wide range of skill levels at DOI. I'm a 2nd tier player - good enough to beat most mid-level players, but not in the 1st tier.

My understanding is that the Europe rulebook had the same phrasing as the Pacific rulebook. I don't own Europe so I can't comment further on that point.

[Frog]

Wow!! Thanks for the responses.

I have played several (3) different players, all seem to be pretty good players. 2 played at origins, 1 at Gen con, one is the owner of a game store. So all three have some good tactics. We switch sides often, but unless we bid or change some rules, the Japaneese player won much to often. So now We always change it in some way.

Don't get me wrong, I like Pacific the most of the AA set. But I'm still wondering What the "standard" adjustment most people use is. last year when I played at Origins for the first time I had no clue what was an average "bid" would be. I plan on this year playing again at Origins, staying more than 1 day this time, so I wonder what to expect?

[Zero Pilot]

Sorry we kinda hijacked your thread there (and didn't really address your question), glad your found other points of interest in there. :D I could not reply to your orig. question myself, because (as my posts say) I'm playing an opponent using the std. Japanese "setup card" placements and no bid. Optional rules would absolutely never fly with them, unfortunately. ~ZP

[richyj1]

First off, you should always play with the "corrected" setup: you can find the details in the Offical AH Axis & Allies: Pacific FAQ (http://www.avalonhill.com/default.asp?x=faq/axispacific)

That might be enough to balance it for your playgroup, if not bump the VP target up from 22 to 24 or 25.

Rich

[Tordenskjold]

This is the most rescent India crush thread (http://pub6.ezboard.com/faxisandalliesessayfeedbackaxisandalliespacificqa. showMessage?topicID=808.topic) at Don´s.
There is also an India crush game between Rich and myself made available there.

Tordenskjold