who agrees with me...

[Major Adler]

the 3 slots used for French ships would have been much better utilized...

French slot #1 - Prinz Eugen
French slot #2 - Prince of Wales
French slot #3 - Italian SM-79

[Stealth]

the 3 slots used for French ships would have been much better utilized...

French slot #1 - Prinz Eugen
French slot #2 - Prince of Wales
French slot #3 - Italian SM-79

Then you'd p*ss off everyone who wanted a bigger French fleet. Gotta remember, no matter the choices that were made 'someone' would always complain/wish for other choices.

I think they did an overall decent selection. I think they overdid it with 3 US battleships, however they are representative of the different eras:

Tennessee - Old WW1 BB from Pearl Harbor (wonder is shes in early war or late war build?)
Washington - Washington Naval treaty BB
Iowa - mid/late war, WWII era all the way. Excellent fast escort.

[TheFoeHammer]

the 3 slots used for French ships would have been much better utilized...

French slot #1 - Prinz Eugen
French slot #2 - Prince of Wales
French slot #3 - Italian SM-79


I disagree. I like the fact that they included the French ships. I think it's good for the longevity of the game if they leave something for the next set and possibly add new mechanics and abilities after the rules from the first set are absorbed.

[MarcusAurelius]

the 3 slots used for French ships would have been much better utilized...

French slot #1 - Prinz Eugen
French slot #2 - Prince of Wales
French slot #3 - Italian SM-79

I'd rather have seen the 3 slots used for the French used elsewhere, as well. It seems like a token force. But keep in mind that these ships included 1 rare, 1 uncommon and 1 common. So you couldn't get both the Prinz Eugen and the Prince of Wales, since these would both be rares.

In other words, you've now used 25 rare slots.

My picks would be the Prince of Wales (or another King George V battleship), the CANT Z.506 Airone patrol bomber and the Savoia-Marchetti SM.79 Sparviero.

[Legbiter]

As you know, I think the French slots are completely wonderful. Not that I wouldn't like the Prinz Eugen, KGV-class BB and the SM79 AS WELL. But if I were a Wizards staffer thinking about the base set for this game I would DEFINITELY have voted for representing one of the biggest fleets in the world at the outbreak of war [one whose members, moreover, fought both with and against the allies during the conflict] over improving the representation of any other 1-3 fleets.

[Major Adler]

a good point Marcus Aurelius...

so...would have rather seen the Rodney replaced by a KGV BB...

and the French slots...used as follows...

Prinz Eugen , SM-79 and E-boats...

Legbiter - what we get is what we get...might used that French BB with the Hood vs. the Germans or Italians...sorry I just do not care for the Rodney...have not located a copy of Vol.1 of Churchill's work yet...but looking forward to reading that piece on Arthur...

I guess I do not really know why I am looking for more German ships in the set...when for the Axis I will be playing the Italians...I think they have a rather nice selection...and insted of the SM-79 , as someone pointed out , I can use the Stuka for now...does anyone know if German Kondors flew in the Med?...

[Kaufschtick]

Ah, this reminds me of the first set of AAM. What'd they have, like two French units in that? They're just building the foundation for future sets...

[Joisey]

For all they contributed to the war, I could have waited until a "Reserves" Set came out to see the French at all.

[Major Adler]

I am sure that several weeks ago some member of the WOTC staff posted that set no.1 was Early war...and therefore one would think you could recreate the major early war actions...I do not see that...looks like WOTC def. of early war and ours is a bit different...

[hornet69]

the 3 slots used for French ships would have been much better utilized...

French slot #1 - Prinz Eugen
French slot #2 - Prince of Wales
French slot #3 - Italian SM-79
i agree totally ,but i guess they had to keep the frogs happy:D

[Autarch]

I'm glad they included the French ships--- I look forward to blowing them out of the water with both Axis AND Allied forces...

[Lynx7725]

I think the inclusion of the French fleet is a good thing too. The French fleet was historically quite powerful, and several of their ships did end up serving with the Allies, especially in the Pacific.

You can also look at it the other way. Having the Prinz Eugen in the Base Set, would mean the Germans would run out of units for further sets. The Kriegsmarine didn't have that many units.

[XAos]

I'm happy with the french ships as is. The destroyer is one of the very high speed french designs (37knots). Be interesting to see if it gets any advantage for that speed.
I'd agree Prinz Eugen would have been nice (instead of Sharnhorst)
And Prince of Wales instead of Rodney. Which would have given all the ships at the Hood/Bismark battle.

[Legbiter]

a good point Marcus Aurelius...

so...would have rather seen the Rodney replaced by a KGV BB...

and the French slots...used as follows...

Prinz Eugen , SM-79 and E-boats...

Legbiter - what we get is what we get...might used that French BB with the Hood vs. the Germans or Italians...sorry I just do not care for the Rodney...have not located a copy of Vol.1 of Churchill's work yet...but looking forward to reading that piece on Arthur...

Here you go:

Sir Winston Churchill - "A History of the English Speaking Peoples: the Birth of Britain" (1956)
"Modern research has not accepted the annihilation of Arthur. Timidly but resolutely the latest and best-informed writers unite to proclaim his reality. They cannot tell when in this dark period he lived, or where he held sway and fought his battles. They are ready to believe however that there was a great British warrior, who kept the light of civilization burning against all the storms that beat, and that behind his sword there sheltered a faithful following of which the memory did not fail...None the less, to have established a basis in fact for the story of Arthur is a service which should be respected. In this account we prefer to believe that the story with which Geoffrey delighted the fiction-loving Europe of the twelfth century is not all fancy. It is all true or it ought to be; and more and better besides. And wherever men are fighting against barbarism, tyranny, and massacre, for freedom, law, and honour, let them remember that the fame of their deeds, even though they themselves be exterminated, may perhaps be celebrated as long as the world rolls round. Let us then declare that King Arthur and his noble knights, guarding the Sacred Flame of Christianity and the theme of a world order, sustained by valour, physical strength, and good horses and armour, slaughtered innumerable hosts of foul barbarians and set decent folk an example for all time."

The quote is actually not quite right if my memory serves, and it has certainly undergone a spot of inappropriate editing between "fail" and "None the less" [sic]. If I find my copy I will edit the right quote into this reply.

You might also be interested in the following site, from which, not being able to find my copy of the book, I trawled the above quote: http://www.britannia.com/history/arthur/historians.html

I guess I do not really know why I am looking for more German ships in the set...when for the Axis I will be playing the Italians...I think they have a rather nice selection...and insted of the SM-79 , as someone pointed out , I can use the Stuka for now...does anyone know if German Kondors flew in the Med?...

I believe they didn't, but were replaced by the rather similar-looking Ju-290 [twin tails, no big ventral gondola]. In this scale I don't believe the differences matter too much.

[Major Adler]

I have been re-searching the historical Arthur (circa 500AD) for about 20 years...funny how you find out about things you should have known about...thanks for the quote and the link...now I really have to find a copy of that book...

[Major Adler]

well...on your advise I have reconsidered...I guess the French (at least the BB Richelieu) have a place...since they did not include a KGV class BB in the set...I will use a "what if" and asume the Captain of the Richelieu went Free French when France went Vichy...and use her in some of my Brit fleet builds...not a bad looking ship...love those 4 gun turrets...

[Legbiter]

well...on your advise I have reconsidered...I guess the French (at least the BB Richelieu) have a place...since they did not include a KGV class BB in the set...I will use a "what if" and asume the Captain of the Richelieu went Free French when France went Vichy...and use her in some of my Brit fleet builds...not a bad looking ship...love those 4 gun turrets...

Excellent decision!

I personally have an odd perspective on British-French relations since I am ethnically Scottish, but ideologically English. However from both points of view I am pro-French. Scots have long fought with/for and admired France. But the English, wisely IMO, regard France as the Beloved Enemy, even if a certain M. de Lafayette was unusually successful in spreading discontent and sedition within the Empire/Commonwealth. And those on this forum and elsewhere who diss the French might IMO profitably wonder to themselves how well THEY would have done in the circumstances that confronted the French in 1940.

"It was a hard business, being a Francophile during the war"

- my old friend Lady Barbara Proctor [widow of Sir Denis Proctor].

[Richter von Manthofen]

There are some OTHER slots (mainly GErman and US) that could have filled with other units.

:D

[TheJudge]

The French fleet was historically very important. I think it could be very cool to have an objective that actually IS the French Fleet! Germany wanted those ships and of course the Alllies needed them or to keep them out of German hands and it was very touch and go until the British just started blasting them and the US fleet even engaged French ships at Oran.

3 slots is hardly a big deal, they really maybe should have a few more.

Very odd distribution of units if you ask me. Why in the world wouldn't you have all the ships for the Bismarck scenario? Thats insane to me. The first set should have definitely been heavier British, French, german, italian and about half the units for Japan/US/ABDA. Having the Iowa and rare Baltimore cruisers seems pretty dumb to me when you could have had Prince of Wales and a dozen other early war ships like Tirpitz, Prinz Eugen, Jean Bart, etc. We have a Catalina to find the Bismarck but no Prinz Eugen to escort her!

[kaz]

i think that thay should ov made 15 ships for each contry 2 begin with that way no one could realy conplaine n thay do need 2 revise the rules abit ie thers no hiden set up rules 4 subs no night rules an so on

[horacus]

Well, I like the 3 French Ships. They seem to be usefull, and well, I like the Richelieu.

[berlin88]

I disagree with replacing the French Fleet, as I Like the idea of adding it. Granted you can argue how useful the French Navy was during WW2, but it does allow for more scenarios and fleet building.

What Wizards should consider doing, is making all these extra fleets a seperate expansion. Just devote an entire expansion to the nations viewed as minor or not as important, then everyone is happy.

Lastly, they could also fix the distribution problems, so that we can build an actual fleet. Both of my starters had 4 allies and 5 axis, but the rares were Allied. My three bosters gave me 11 Allies and 4 Axis?

My 2 starters and 3 Boosters were heavily in favor of the Allies for rares and uncommons.

HMS Hood
HMAS Sydney x2
USS Iowa
USS Washington
USS Princeton
USS St. Lo
USS Salt Lake City

Shoho
Japanese Cruiser
Japanese Auxilary Ship
Kondor (German recon plane)


My Axis fleet has like 1 support carrier, 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer and a wave of planes and subs, while my Allied fleet is far more balanced and powerful.

[oddfellow]

I think its brilliant to include the French in set one as, I believe, they can be utilized by both Allies (as normal) and Axis (Vichy).... especially when many people don't yet have enough peices to scratch together a decent fleet the versatility of the French is extremely useful.

[Major Adler]

I do use the French ships to beef up my British fleet...but I would much rather have had KGV , Prinz Eugen and the SM-79...the French could have waited for set II...

[XAos]

The french ships are OK. Much more usefull than the Italian ships.

[BasicBob]

From a viewpoint towards historical based scenarios I have always thought that the French were a waste of perfectedly good plastic. The Major is right !.

[Ulzana]

the 3 slots used for French ships would have been much better utilized...

French slot #1 - Prinz Eugen
French slot #2 - Prince of Wales
French slot #3 - Italian SM-79
Due to the complicated History of Vichy France, the Free French, and the original French government, The French ships can be used against the German Navy, the Japanese Navy, the Italian Navy, the British Navy (Oran), the American Navy (Casablanca), the Siamese navy (yes, really! but we're into many booster packs before we see that one!), and even, on an African river, it fought the French navy.
Besides they're cool looking ships. Anyway, give the French Richelieu flagship status like the Bismarck's.

[IXJac]

I really like the Richelieu and I'm glad it's in the game. I can wait for a Hipper.

[Extended_Range]

The French ships are great game pieces, and the Richelieu is a visually appealing ship, so I cast my vote for the French. I bet we'll be seeing the KGV and the others you mentioned in set II.

[Joisey]

The Richelieu eventually found it's way into the British Home Fleet, while the Jean Bart was rendered an unusable hulk by USS Massachusetts while in Axis service, and never served with the Allies. Jean Bart was only 75% complete when launched in March 1940, and was still that way when she fled in her only voyage of the war, from Toulon to North Africa (hey, no hurry to finish the ship, they were only at war at the time, that's all). So, if you are observing historical restrictions, both the Allies and the Axis should only be able to field ONE Richelieu class BB.

Regarding the Fantasque class destroyers, All started out with the Axis but only 4 ended up with the Allies in the Atlantic.

There were six Gallissonniere class cruisers. All six started out Vichy, but 3 ended up in Allied service.

In preparation for Set II, NEITHER of the Dunkerque class BC's (Dunkerque and Strasbourg) ever served with the allies.

NOTE: I say "started out" with the Axis because, prior to it's fall in May, 1940, France didn't actually DO any fighting against Germany even though technically at a state of war. This period was referred to as the Sitzkrieg, or Phony War. When the Germans did decide to take the fight to the French, it was all over in a few weeks. Because of this pathetically craven conduct, I don't consider the French fleet to have "served" with the Allies before the various Vichy commands "turned coat" midwar.

[BasicBob]

Joisey well put as usual and some interesting anecdotes..

[dictator_wanna_be]

The French fleet did play an important part in WW2... As some pointed out the allies made sure that it didnt get into german hands...
& alternative history can be fun!

[afilter]

I have debated this, and I do not dislike the French ships and think they can play a role. i have to agree though a KGV. Prinz Eugen and Axis European fighter would have been a better choice for Set I, and the French could have waited until SetII along with the IJN sub chaser.

In the end it does not matter, just hope those units do make it into Set II.

[grandinquisitorkris]

im not big in A&A minis , the problem i have is that so many are so similar in abilities or stats , ect ....... but when i saw the new WaS set i said ya , i want that !!!! i liked playeing battleship , and this goes perfectly in that direction .

none of my group really are into A&A minis , and when i asked if any of them were interested in this they said no . i decided to buy some anyway and if we want something different to play we can all use mine .




SO IMAGINE MY HORROR WHEN THE STARTER I BOUGHT ..........THE BIG SHIP IN IT .........MY FIRST RARE .........#5 OF 54 .......... THE RICHELIEU !!!!!!! of all the battleships i could have gotten .......... oh the humanity .............i hate the french :confused: it figures , ill just leave it for other players .........if they need the points filler .