Can We All Play Togethere?

[pellulo]

Lately I have sadley notice the negative hype(esteria) brought out by some people with the release of the new A.H. Games(Axis and Allies variant of D-Day & Newer revamp version of the basic A.&A. game. Also the now current release of Bulge & Guadcanal games).

I'm sure the moderators have had to never edit so many posts, as I notice these last two months.

One I'm sure that your varation of rule X in game X has been thoughtful played out, but, believe me, somebody has probably beaten you to the punch, by coming out with something better(maybe they'll post it or not). All this negative anger of why it is not incorporated or apperiated by the powers that be, is a waste of time(or else the game would nerver be release).

If I read one more time of why subs. cannot defend against air attacks (or whatever problem), they did historically, all you need is a little research. Just look it up on the web, or, a good book,and, see it is not to hard to make up a house rule to suit your needs (especially in regards to those nasty USN Blimps).

Perhaps in the more distant future, after you get your game, you can send a form in, and, A.H. will send you a "Official Varient Rulebook" of your ideals, that could be used as your own personal "Official HouseRules".

Lately a fellow gamer suggested his spirt was a bit down cause, not anybody was repleying to his more or less endless play setups that would try the patient of a Job (Hey, you only got so much time to read these ideals. Usually after a 1000 words, describing just one round, it gets to be a bit to much to read the whole thing, donate it to a speciality website/start a website or something like that).

After all this is probably a new trend of about 2 new game varations of A.& A. a year. So you'll need the energy to play the new games down the line (e.g. Battle of the Buldge, Battle of Kurst, just about anything from WWII can be made into a official varation A&A game. Here the former was made into a game, the latter maybe?).

Finally did not get a part(s) you feel you deserve in one of the new games (you probably forgot the old A.H. game sequels that always said you needed the orginal game to play part two, e.g. Civilzation), email the game makers, after a few thousand request, somebody will set up a program to start recomp. the customers.

Can't wait, get a second game and sell off the unneeded units.

Remember gamming is to get people togethere, not drive them away cause you just come down the mountain, with the only best new rules/ideals/grips/ect., written on your tablets, take care & enjoy your gamming, Pelullo

[ March 16, 2004, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: pellulo ]

[Da Black Gobo]

While, I can see your point,(I too think there is too much negitivity in the postings) I also can see why there is some anger and disapointment. Clearly Avalon Hill dropped the ball on the parts issue, and due to all the hype about the release of A&A 2004, some members felt they were misled. :( I'm not one of them, but I can see their point. As for all the rule varients, I see this as a good thing, never stifle creativity! smile.gif
This board is mainly made up of adults, so the can't we all get along pep talk is a little condensending. It seems the fustration stems from members thinking they are not heard, a post by the staff now in then letting them know they are listening, would be nice. And members need to be reminded while they are being heard it doesn't mean AH will act on thier ideas or complaints. Just my thoughts, I am intitled to them. :D As you are, enjoy and game on!

[ March 16, 2004, 11:56 PM: Message edited by: Sean MacDaniel Swart ]

[msjells]

The question of variants has been around since the early days of Avalon Hill back in the sixties. No game will be all things to all players, and there are a lot of members in both camps - some who look to make a game more to their liking almost as soon as they open the box, and some that pretty much only play the game with the rules as published. While many people get a great deal of enjoyment and satisfaction with making various adjustments to the rules, the simple (economic) truth is that there is only a very small chance that these ideas will ever make it into the published copy of any game. Once a version is published, a standard is set that everyone can play by. Designers and developers would much rather limit changes to things that clarify existing rules rather than things that create new systems or methods of plays. Otherwise, you end up with people purchasing games a few months apart not being able to play one another without endless rules arguments. The exception to this usually relates to play balance - if a "perfect strategy" of some sort emerges, changes might become necessary. That normally doesn't happen until after the game has been out for a while, as sometimes the balance isn't clear until after repeated playings.

As Pellulo said, it doesn't do much good to get angry if your ideas don't get the acceptance you feel they deserve. The things in a game that are flaws to one person might easily be the best parts to another. Feel free to present your ideas - we've seen a lot of creative ideas, some that are well worth using in a game or two. Just don't be disappointed if they don't draw a reaction from the official AH staff - you wouldn't believe how many "can't miss" ideas are pitched to most game companies, let alone variants on existing games.

As far as the parts issue goes, I believe that AH is looking into it. That doesn't guarantee a change in the future, but your voices are being heard by the people who have the power to do something about it. I know that several staff members drop in from time to time, but it might be that a daily "no decision made" or "no progress" report might be just as frustrating as silence.

Like Sean said, enjoy and game on!
Moderator John

[Da Black Gobo]

To GROGnads, lol!!!!! :D

[Gorak]

are you aimin that finger at me? We can throw down right here if you want. smile.gif

[elbowmaster]

now i know the purpose of this thumbs up icon smile.gif

-cheers grognads LOL

-elbowmaster

[ March 22, 2004, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: elbowmaster ]

[Reyoso]

Screaming Yellow Piper Cubs! LOL

[pellulo]

The "Black Cats", used in the Pacific, were nearly invisible, being painted black, low flying, &, slow, took their share of surface ships(including subs.), not bad for PBYs/Dumbo flying boats!, thanks, Pellulo

[Lobo]

Bump/

Remember, to be respectful to others and their points of view. I feel embarrased over some of the childish remarks appearing on these boards. There is no reason to insult people for preferring one set of rules to another.

Objective feedback on rule questions and the effect of certain rules IS needed. However, there is no need for endless circular debates over which "ruleset" is better or "official". Axis & Allies is a great game. Let's enjoy it and remember to have fun.

[Moderator Sinister]

I agree with the need to be respectful to one another but I do think that this debate is, or was, important for many players. I think it's pretty much accepted at this point that both systems are "in play" for the short term. I not asking anyone to agree with it, but please be respectful of others. If necessary, (and for clarity reasons) I may suggest that we have a Larry Harris thread if it becomes confusing especially to new forum members. For now I would perfer to monitor things and see how things pan out.

Happy July 4th to all the american members on the forum, and have a good weekend to everyone else!!!

[Moderator Sinister]

Since this thread is about general conduct on the boards I am moving it to the meta board. Thank you for reading!

[pellulo]

Lately much pro & negative views of the new A&A PC Game has been coming up(a bit more to the latter). Where by some people it seemed, bet the family farm, on its abilitites, and, are quite adament, in their views. Sometimes it can get a bit gross(especially other sites, this site has been spared the worst). Let us take a general look at it:

1. It is simply a game, if you want an all inclusive game, that exists, for the time being, 20 years down the road, this game is not for you. Let us face it, "Star Trek" computer intelligence, is a long way off from now.

2. Let the POWERS that be know how you feel, if you feel they should or shoulden't lend the A&A name , to any PC game maker(I'm sure Larry coulden't do much to stop Atari from making this game). Perhaps a requirement, is that a potential game should be played TESTED, to eliminate and stop any bugs it has(like 99.9999-->)& quality & enjoyment min. standard, if not, then you can't use the A&A name on it.

The POWERS that be do not want to be associated with any potential "turkeys". Especially when they want to push upcoming new board games(heaven forbid, you are so disgusted, it affects the ability to take out your wallet, to make a new boardgame purchase).

3. Finally the game itself, if it stays like a 'Pure" A&A game, then all it would be, is a long overdue better version, of the orginal PC game, much less the "Iron" version. Perhaps it tried too much, too soon, and, left a bad taste in some buyers wallet.
a. For better or worse(being a former USN Member). I like to control my fleets, much less Air Arm, it is like playing the Classic Operation Europe(where you could only give directions/orders to the number of bombers to be used, no fighters or fighter bombers was available, in the game).

The game should have been touted as more a land version of A&A rather than an all inclusive armed forces game. A few Battleships & Carriers, make a nice Task force, that is all!

b.If Admirals can lead armies, can Generals lead fleets?,
c. shades of WWI, what's this "BunkerMania", yes Infantry prepared postions, were used, but, not all were concrete bunkers!,
d.perhaps a OFF switch for all the HQs, they know what they are doing, taking the place of the factories, just give one your reinforcements, that is all, allot of players would be satisfied!,
e. The use of different battle units is GREAT!,
f.Maybe another switch for base building & supplies(just make it automatic),
g.Campaigns might have an optional Historical Mode,
the abilitity for armour in Crete is a joke, that was mostly a Paratroopers used by the Axis Forces, Axis Victories(that were orginally defeats, lead to conjecture, here the game does OK, especially the Battle for the Suez Canal & the second "Pearl Harbor"). In a historical mode, even a victories Axis Victories at StalinGrade, much less Kurst, still might have let them not win the war (Hitler was hoping to bleed the Russian's white for the Kurst battle, not have the door opened for taking Moscow, much less an Operatioin SeaLion. What about Bomber Command,&, Royal Navy and the USA 8th. Air Force?), maybe more like a standoff or minor victory,
h.the Allies Campains are OK, but, in a Historical mode, in would be nice to fight e.g. El Alamein Battle without the abilitity to call forth, like a mage a google of tanks!,
f. the Battle of Big G. really needs that Naval element!,
g.the WWII mode does not make up for an historical mode,
h. the Map Editor is what you want to make of it,

4. there is not a big enough patch for this game, much less an supplement version to follow, you have to play it, knowing it has its limits, thanks, Pellulo

[sking500]

The POWERS that be do not want to be associated with any potential "turkeys". especially when they want to push upcoming new board games(heaven forbid, you are so disgusted, it affects the ability to take out your wallet, to make a new boardgame purchase).

Hate to burst your bubble, but after working for a software development company for several years now, the POWERS don't really care about whether or not a product is viewed as a "turkey". As long as they can make their buck off it, and there are buyers who thrown down their cash because of name recognition, they're happy.

While the developers, QA staff, and playtesters usually do care a great deal about gameplay (most being gamers themselves), the head honchos, and investors, generally only look at the bottom-line. As long as they're in the black, they're OK with it. As long as the current PC version makes them a boatload of cash they're happy as clams. They simply don't have the emotional investment that the players do.

My opinion is that long-term this is a foolish approach, as it is likely that their next project will bomb. However, very often, they simply fold the company, start another development firm under a new name, and they're given a clean slate.

Sorry for the pessimism, but I've seen it too many times since I've been playing PC games. Until the purchasing community starts investing some effort to make an informed decision before they spend their hard-earned money, it will only continue.

[Lt M Cotten]

My opinion is that long-term this is a foolish approach, as it is likely that their next project will bomb. However, very often, they simply fold the company, start another development firm under a new name, and they're given a clean slate.

Good anaylsis Sking, but let me expand on it a tad...

More often than not they will "buy" the rights to use another popular game name so they can ride that wave of popularity to hock there wares. Then when that name has lost its popularity they "buy" another one...

Just because a certain name is on the box doesn't mean the item inside is up to the standards we expect. I think this is the case for the game in question, HOWEVER the turn based board version was only a secondard feature NOT the main game, so they probably consider it a freebee, and don't really care what we think. The RTS is what is supposedly driving the sales, not our beloved turn-based game. IMHO

[pellulo]

Perhaps instead of working on the Sellers of the PC game, who do not hesitate, to run, a title into the ground, but, instead, focus on the sellers of the A&A name.

Instead of backing "TURKEYS" for a quick buck, heads will roll via the power of the wallet(instant feedback to the sellers of the A&A name), has anybody tried a petition?, thanks, Pellulo

P.S. This must be the third or so time the Atari name has been sold(or restarted), how many people buy it, thinking of its glory days of the seventies to early eighties?, for a great product(s), thanks, Pellulo

[sking500]

Instead of backing "TURKEYS" for a quick buck, heads will roll via the power of the wallet(instant feedback to the sellers of the A&A name), has anybody tried a petition?, thanks, Pellulo

I agree that the absolute best way to express your dissatisfaction with a product is to not buy it in the first place. I am glad to see others feel this way as well. However, until the populace, en masse, adopts this mentality, game development companies will continue to be forgiven for their transgressions as long as they hit the mark from time to time.

Granted, very few gamers expect perfect games with each release. But, PLEASE, ask a question or two of the fan base before skipping off into Stupidland. If a single post had been done here as to whether or not the regular A&A players thought this was a good idea, or been solicited for some feedback on design/preferences/etc., this latest software product probably would have been much more widely accepted by this community. However, as far as I can tell, this was not done.

I also agree that expressing your dissatisfaction via petition, forums, etc., may get some of the message across. However, in this case, it's too little, too late. The software has been released; it has, for the most part, flopped; and there are probably several executives who will be skittish approaching anything related to A&A in the near future. :(

[pellulo]

I wondered if the junior CEO(s) who sold off the rights of the A&A name to Atari, is going to get his/her X-mas bonus?(probably should just get it in unsold Axis & Allies & Iron A&A unsold P.C. games, probably a ton or two of each game), thanks, Pellulo

[sking500]

I wondered if the junior CEO(s) who sold off the rights of the A&A name to Atari, is going to get his/her X-mas bonus?(probably should just get it in unsold Axis & Allies & Iron A&A unsold P.C. games, probably a ton or two of each game), thanks, Pellulo

LOL! Good thing he/she isn't on a reality show involving Donald Trump.

[82ndAirborne]

I wondered if the junior CEO(s) who sold off the rights of the A&A name to Atari, is going to get his/her X-mas bonus?(probably should just get it in unsold Axis & Allies & Iron A&A unsold P.C. games, probably a ton or two of each game), thanks, Pellulo

Are there really so many unsold games out there?
On ebay, Iron blitz is going really high - I watched one end at around $75! This is strange :confused:

[Lobo]

Are there really so many unsold games out there?
On ebay, Iron blitz is going really high - I watched one end at around $75! This is strange :confused:

Holy smokes! I have one for sale at half that price. :)

[pellulo]

It is not the price of the game, does one really get any enjoyment from playing it?(especially if it cost you 40-80 to do so), thanks, Pellulo

[Da Black Gobo]

Man, have you hit the nail on the head! As a former playtester (I with hold the name of the company to protect the quilty), I can attest this this disservice to the game playing population. I new something was up when asked to look over some new up and coming items only to find out when I voiced my disproval of some of them, I was told they were already being printed! The playtesting was a sham. They never intended to use any playtesters opinion. I talked privately to other playtester and found most of us had come to the same conclusions and opinions. So, sad!

[elbowmaster]

i wouldnt call it iron blitz, more like IRON GLITCH !!

some poor folks are paying over 100 bucks for this game, then you never see them again due to that being ripped off feeling in public...

that game had all the potential...except good code writers...i still have my copy, dont have the heart to rip someone off on ebay with it...

YUK!!