The Bismarck

[shadowhooch]

Just watched Dogfights on the History Channel about the Bismarck.

I have a question for anyone who knows.
It appears the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen were trying to sneak around to Britain to attack shipping lines, but the Bismarck got damaged and had to head back.

My question is why didn't the Prinz Eugen escort the Bismarck back? Why would you leave your prized Battleship to risk limping home all alone?

I hope the Pinz Eugen did something worthwhile while the Bismarck was being destroyed by the entire British fleet. Anyone know?

Finally, it seems air support is pretty important. Why didn't Germany just send their fleet (Bismarck and Eugen included) directly toward the UK harbors to KO the entire UK fleet with the help of the Luftwaffe. Was Germany that outnumbered?

[Stealth]

Just watched Dogfights on the History Channel about the Bismarck.

I have a question for anyone who knows.
It appears the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen were trying to sneak around to Britain to attack shipping lines, but the Bismarck got damaged and had to head back.

My question is why didn't the Prinz Eugen escort the Bismarck back? Why would you leave your prized Battleship to risk limping home all alone?

I hope the Pinz Eugen did something worthwhile while the Bismarck was being destroyed by the entire British fleet. Anyone know?

Finally, it seems air support is pretty important. Why didn't Germany just send their fleet (Bismarck and Eugen included) directly toward the UK harbors to KO the entire UK fleet with the help of the Luftwaffe. Was Germany that outnumbered?

Admiral Lutjens on the Bismark detached the Prinz Eugen so she could continue commerce raiding, and to a much smaller extent act as a possible decoy for the Bismark. (German ships had a remarkable similarity, so ID from the air would be iffy).

Also, remember that Germany had no experience with fleets since WWI, and as the Bismark was also considered the best BB in the world (by the germans) it was almost laughable (again to the Germans)that she needed escorting.

In fact the Bismark was based rather heavily on the WWI Baden class BBs, and was thus underarmoured compared to her equivilants abroad. For example, one torp from an elderly Swordfish BIPLANE fighter (an at 18", was much smaller than comparable torps from other countries) completely wrecked the steering on the Bismark)

In response to the question about her KO'ing the British fleet, not possible. England had about 20 BB's in service during WWII, plus innumerably more heavy cruisers, light cruisers, DDs, etc. She would have been sunk long before becoming a threat. Plus. which harbor do you attack? The Brit fleet was spread out over numerous harbors, and operating that close to British air power would have been suicidal.

German air power could not help much, as shown by the Battle of Britain. The Me-109 fighter only had enough fuel over southern England for 15 minutes flying, less if air combat occurs. they also had no drop tanks. Thats the single biggest reason Germany lost the BoB, and would also be the critical factor in preventing the Bismark to operate close to British shores.

[Belisarius]

Finally, it seems air support is pretty important. Why didn't Germany just send their fleet (Bismarck and Eugen included) directly toward the UK harbors to KO the entire UK fleet with the help of the Luftwaffe. Was Germany that outnumbered?

In brief, yes. Remember that most of Germany's warships were turned over to the Allies at the end of World War I. So Germany was basically starting from scratch in the 1930s, and had a lot of ground to make up. And the main base for the Royal Navy's Home Fleet, Scapa Flow, was way out of range for the Me 109.

Had the Germans gathered their ships for one mad rush at the Royal Navy, it would have amounted to a suicide charge. The British would then be able to concentrate more of their forces in the Channel and the North Sea, blockading German ports and making it more difficult for the U-boats to get out to the open sea. The Kriegsmarine was far more of a threat as a "fleet in being." This forced the British to spread their resources to cover any eventuality (Keeping the Italian fleet at bay in the Mediterranean, protecting their interests in the Indian Ocean and the Pacific after 1941, protecting convoys from U-Boats, and keeping an eye on German surface units).

[Richter von Manthofen]

The German (surface) fleet was laughable compared to the fleets of the other major nations. Even Italy had a bigger fleet. But meeting the RN was never a issue as Germany decided to go on commerce raiding (which DID hurt UK more than even the loss of most of the RN would have) - Only when the LIBERTY ship production yieled more tonnage built than sunk this changed. The Bismark was more a prestige object than the start of a real fleet.

MY2CENTS

[XAos]

I have a question for anyone who knows.
It appears the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen were trying to sneak around to Britain to attack shipping lines, but the Bismarck got damaged and had to head back.

My question is why didn't the Prinz Eugen escort the Bismarck back? Why would you leave your prized Battleship to risk limping home all alone?

I think there were two reasons for that.
1) The initial damage was minor. The major damage which left Bismark cripled occured later when Ark Royals planes attacked.
2) The Prinz Eugen was not much defense against anything that was a significant threat to Bismark. It would just have been sunk in the final battle. The reason the 2 ships started together was for Bismark to escourt Prinz Eugen, not Vis-versa.

[Stealth]

I think there were two reasons for that.
1) The initial damage was minor. The major damage which left Bismark cripled occured later when Ark Royals planes attacked.
2) The Prinz Eugen was not much defense against anything that was a significant threat to Bismark. It would just have been sunk in the final battle. The reason the 2 ships started together was for Bismark to escourt Prinz Eugen, not Vis-versa.

The initial damage was a bit more than monor. Two shells went theu the Bismarks bows, penetrating the forward fuel tanks and letting in ~ 2000 tons of seawater. Lutjens was already concerned about range, and this was the primary reason he turned towards Brest.

Neither ship was really escorting, the German plan of convoy raiding was based on the Bismark fighting off the escorts while the Prinx Eugen sank the transports.

[TheJudge]

In the course of the war, the Germans were always told not to risk damage to their ships and were therefore, horribly choked with caution and lack of initiative. their Admirals and Captains were very good, their equipment was good. Ships like the Bismarck were arguably, the best in the world at the time, but air power and radar were the 2 telling factors in the war in the Atlantic. The Catalina patrol planes and the cruisers shadowing Bismarck were the real factors in the Chase thanks to radar.

The Ark Royal torpedo planes got lucky. Hitting the steering gear will cripple any ship because propellers and a rudder aren't made out of lead, they break and the debate about the Bismarck being under armoured is hogwash, it took hours for her to go down despite being pummled by 14 and 16 inch guns and totally outmaneuvered, outmanned, and outgunned, she still fought bravely and put up a good fight.

As you can see, in an even fight and even being outgunned against Prince of Wales and Hood, the Bismarck beat them down like rented mules but when unable to steer, thats a different story.

The Bismarck was very dangerous and the Tirpitz never did anything because the Germans were simply scared and for good reason. The Royal Navy was a juggernaut with aircraft carriers, numerous battleships, and many more cruisers, and the help of radar and land based bombers and patrol planes.

The German navy was done in by it's own leaders. Dopes like Hitler couldn't wait to wage war and raeder wanted many more battleships, cruisers, subs, and carriers before waging war with Britain. He was right.

[Stealth]

In the course of the war, the Germans were always told not to risk damage to their ships and were therefore, horribly choked with caution and lack of initiative. their Admirals and Captains were very good, their equipment was good. Ships like the Bismarck were arguably, the best in the world at the time, but air power and radar were the 2 telling factors in the war in the Atlantic. The Catalina patrol planes and the cruisers shadowing Bismarck were the real factors in the Chase thanks to radar..

The German captains and admirals weren't 'very good', merely adequate. German staff had no interwar fleet, and their commanders didn't have the many years of experience other fleet commanders (British, American, etc) to make them 'very good'.

The Bismarck was adequate for a BB, but seriously outdated. She was merely a modernized design of a WWI battleship, the Baden, This meant that her machinery took up more space/weight than contemporaries, her main armor deck was too low to prevent large bombs from damaging communications lines, equipment, her secondary armament was old fashioned as well, incorporating a seperate secondary gun (5.9" and low angle) and main AA gun (4.1" high angle). Germany followed WWI design rules and never designed a dual purpose secondary/AA gun like the excellent US 5"/38.

She did do well against the Hood/Prince of Whales because the Hood was seriously underarmoured, being merely a battlecruiser. She paid the ultimate price for that lack of armor, and the Bismark getting in a lucky shot. The Prince of Whales was also fresh from the focks, and still had workmen on board working on a troublesome foward gun. Also, the British came in at a steep angle to prevent the Hood from staying in her vulnerable range for too long, and initially it was a lopsided duel, with only 4x15" and 4x14" for the British vs the Germans 8x 15" guns and 8x8" guns.

QUOTE=TheJudge;229655]
The Ark Royal torpedo planes got lucky. Hitting the steering gear will cripple any ship because propellers and a rudder aren't made out of lead, they break and the debate about the Bismarck being under armoured is hogwash, it took hours for her to go down despite being pummled by 14 and 16 inch guns and totally outmaneuvered, outmanned, and outgunned, she still fought bravely and put up a good fight.
.[/QUOTE]

See above for Bismarcks armouring. Her main saving grace was her broad beam (allowing for a stable gun platform) and thick armor belt. This is what kept her afloat for so long vs the British BBs Rodney/KGV. However her main director control was hit early on the battle, and she was only firing sporadically after 30 minutes. She stayed afloat as the British closed in too close and could not get enough plunging fire to penetrate below the waterline. The Rodney eventually withdrew to give more long range fire specifically for this. Topside damage is fine, but its hits below the waterline that sinks a ship. The Bismarck was a floating hulk after 45 minutes, with most/all main guns silent, fires out of control, and no maneuverability. But yes, she did fight (and die) bravely, a credit to the sailors aboard her her knew they were doomed. (The Bismarck only scored a few straddles on the British BBs, no major hits were recorded)

[Wyldman]

QUOTE=TheJudge;229655]
The Ark Royal torpedo planes got lucky. Hitting the steering gear will cripple any ship because propellers and a rudder aren't made out of lead, they break and the debate about the Bismarck being under armoured is hogwash, it took hours for her to go down despite being pummled by 14 and 16 inch guns and totally outmaneuvered, outmanned, and outgunned, she still fought bravely and put up a good fight.
.[/QUOTE]

See above for Bismarcks armouring. Her main saving grace was her broad beam (allowing for a stable gun platform) and thick armor belt. This is what kept her afloat for so long vs the British BBs Rodney/KGV. However her main director control was hit early on the battle, and she was only firing sporadically after 30 minutes. She stayed afloat as the British closed in too close and could not get enough plunging fire to penetrate below the waterline. The Rodney eventually withdrew to give more long range fire specifically for this. Topside damage is fine, but its hits below the waterline that sinks a ship. The Bismarck was a floating hulk after 45 minutes, with most/all main guns silent, fires out of control, and no maneuverability. But yes, she did fight (and die) bravely, a credit to the sailors aboard her her knew they were doomed. (The Bismarck only scored a few straddles on the British BBs, no major hits were recorded)[/QUOTE]

I got out my Siegfried Breyer Battleships and Battle Cruisers 1905 1970, a Primary source for BBs and BCs, after reading these comments. My first question is where did you get your info, no sources are referenced.
Here is quote from Siegfried about the Bismarck: "Denmark Strait, on that occasion sank -> Hood and damaged -> Prince of Wales, recieved 3 shell hits. British ships employed in the chase 5 battleships, 2 aircraft carriers, 9 cruisers and 18 destroyers. 26th May 1941 received aerial torpedo hits in the steering gear from aircraft of the Ark Royal, since then incapable of manoeuvring. 27th May 1941 battle with -> King George V and -> Rodney, on that occasion sustained numerous hits, including six to seven torpedo hits, but remained completely undamaged below the AD. After all ammunition had been used up, blown up, whilst sinking struck by torpedo from British cruiser Dorsetshire.

A much different description than yours.

[TheJudge]

Well, I didn't really describe to the nth degree what happened but there are hundreds of books on the subject and there is debate to this day about what really sank the Bismarck since, and I hope you agree, that we weren't there and most of the people who wrote the books weren't there either so we can only assume what happened through the writing of someone else. It was a very historic battle and captured the imagination of the world at the time.

The Bismarck was a fine ship and it took a lot to sink her, thats the real point I was trying to make and is just an opinion the same as people calling it an outdated design and not really a very good ship in general. I disagree.

[Wyldman]

So you don't have a primary source then Judge? And yes lots of people write books stating their views on events. I just used Breyer's because he is considered a Primary Source. When doing research my old College Prof always said use Primary Sources before using anything else.

[TheFoeHammer]

So you don't have a primary source then Judge? And yes lots of people write books stating their views on events. I just used Breyer's because he is considered a Primary Source. When doing research my old College Prof always said use Primary Sources before using anything else.

Also though, it's important to validate both primary and secondary sources. Even a primary source can have a bias or limited view of the actual events.

Example: The diary of an AA gunner at Pearl would be considered a primary source. But I certainly would not accept only his limited views on the number of bombs that hit his ship, the time of the attack, or the number of Japanese planes shot down without validating them against other primary and even some secondary sources that have aggregated some primary sources objectively.

I don't profess to know much about Breyer's or the Bismarck story, but being a history undergrad, I have had a lot of "primary source/secondary source" debates and discussions.

[Wyldman]

Also though, it's important to validate both primary and secondary sources. Even a primary source can have a bias or limited view of the actual events.

Example: The diary of an AA gunner at Pearl would be considered a primary source. But I certainly would not accept only his limited views on the number of bombs that hit his ship, the time of the attack, or the number of Japanese planes shot down without validating them against other primary and even some secondary sources that have aggregated some primary sources objectively.

I don't profess to know much about Breyer's or the Bismarck story, but being a history undergrad, I have had a lot of "primary source/secondary source" debates and discussions.

I did not say that Breyer is the end all source. I said the judge must not have a primary source for his argument, because he quotes none. He doesn't even quote a secondary source. Any one can say anything about history, but if they at least quote a source, I can at least say the source is good or not.

[Predator666]

What would have happened if the Germans made it to were their planes had better fuel stores, and then had the Italians send their whole fleet from the south, and then send in their entire fleet from the North. Would this have worked if the Germans didn't attack the Russians?

Anyways, from what I understand the Bismark went down guns blazing fighting while being outnumbered. And in the end it was scuttled by its crew to avoid its capture. Truly a brave fight.

[Joisey]

What would have happened if the Germans made it to were their planes had better fuel stores, and then had the Italians send their whole fleet from the south, and then send in their entire fleet from the North. Would this have worked if the Germans didn't attack the Russians?

Anyways, from what I understand the Bismark went down guns blazing fighting while being outnumbered. And in the end it was scuttled by its crew to avoid its capture. Truly a brave fight.

I never understood why the Germans didn't fit their 109's with drop tanks during the battle of Britain.

The Italians never succeeded in destroying the British Mediterrean Fleet. Therefore, they couldn't just "sail all the way to the English Channel". Nor did they have the range to make it that far without refueling.

[Count_Ciano]

The Italians never succeeded in destroying the British Mediterrean Fleet. Therefore, they couldn't just "sail all the way to the English Channel". Nor did they have the range to make it that far without refueling.

Gaining control of Gibraltar would have been helpful as well, which the Axis never succeeded in doing.

[TheJudge]

I didn't realize I had to recite each source when I post a comment? Seems rather petty if you ask me but since you did ask, I have about 25 different books on naval warfare, countless hours watched of documentary on naval warfare, and a passion for the subject. I've read both German and British accounts of the battle who were actually on board various ships including Bismarck surviviors and men from Prince of Wales and the only living member of HMS Hood.

I don't claim anything as my own nor it to be fully and historically accurate since I didn't happen to be alive during the battle and wasn't present on any of the ships involved. Had I been there, I assure you that I would feel much more confident in recounting the course of events, what time of day they occurred, what mistakes were made, what the weather was like, whether I ****** my pants or not, and who the heroes were but alas, I wasn't born yet so I have to trust that what I have read over the past 30 years or so and what I have seen on television is fairly accurate and knowing full well that opinions given by the narrarator or author might be politically or emotionally motivated and biased.

It's a good thing I have the ability to make up my own mind and decide that the Bismarck was an excellent ship manned by brave sailors and captained by brave men who had to do an unthinkable and very difficult job of killing the men on board the ships with a certain flag flying from it. They did this to the best of their abilities and followed orders handed down from much lesser men who were not there. I can also decide that the other ships involved on both sides were also manned by brave men and did their jobs as well as they could and they sacrificed their lives so you and I could debate this retarded subject on a free internet chat board, most likely while we are at work doing things much less dangerous than they did.

I will remember next time to make sure and quote you a source though as it seems so very important to you.

Onward

[XAos]

I never understood why the Germans didn't fit their 109's with drop tanks during the battle of Britain.

Interesting question, the obvious answer would be that they didn't think of it. They couldn't just copy allied drop tanks, because the allies hadn't thought of them that early in the war either.
But it's possible they requiered a technological development that didn't occur till later in the war. ???

[Joisey]

Interesting question, the obvious answer would be that they didn't think of it. They couldn't just copy allied drop tanks, because the allies hadn't thought of them that early in the war either.
But it's possible they requiered a technological development that didn't occur till later in the war. ???

Then they were real dumkopfs, because the Fokker Dr I (WWI triplane) had a fuel tank set between it's landing wheels, which is practically the same thing.

[XAos]

Then they were real dumkopfs, because the Fokker Dr I (WWI triplane) had a fuel tank set between it's landing wheels, which is practically the same thing.
Your clearly correct, they were all dumkopfs. Or at least someone in the design/production process was. This is particularly apparent as the Me.109E-7 variant with drop tanks became opperational later in the same year that the Battle of Britain ended. Which suggests someone at the top of the chain of command (Hitler or Goering) ordered the campaign to start a couple of months too soon. And then stopped, just as they were about to win.

[Joisey]

They clearly had their production priorities wrong. They could have had jet fighters in mass production 2 years before they got around to it. They failed to rush into production drop tanks for the 109.

Apologists might claim that the Germans wanted to settle on a standardized model to maximise production. That sounds good until you consider that the Germans routinely complicated their tank production to introduce new models often, for incremental gain (as opposed to the Soviets who didn't upgrade the T-34/76 with the T-34/85 for two years, prefering to concentrate on maximizing production as a trade off to innovation).

[Belisarius]

They clearly had their production priorities wrong. They could have had jet fighters in mass production 2 years before they got around to it. They failed to rush into production drop tanks for the 109.

Apologists might claim that the Germans wanted to settle on a standardized model to maximise production. That sounds good until you consider that the Germans routinely complicated their tank production to introduce new models often, for incremental gain (as opposed to the Soviets who didn't upgrade the T-34/76 with the T-34/85 for two years, prefering to concentrate on maximizing production as a trade off to innovation).

True. There was a lot of the "right hand not knowing what the left hand was doing" going on in the Third Reich. I vaguely recall reading somewhere that was at least partially by design on Hitler's part. He didn't want anyone building up a power base to challenge him. He also seemed to have the attention span of a magpie ("Look! Shiny things!").

As far as the Luftwaffe was concerned, it really wasn't designed for a strategic role. It was a tactical air force, designed to support the Wehrmacht's blitzkrieg. So, the lack of long-range drop tanks, and effective strategic bomber, etc., isn't really that surprising. Remember, they thought that the Me 110 was going to be a sufficient fighter escort for longer-range missions. When that didn't turn out to be the case, they were caught kind of flat-footed.

[NASAAN101]

OK WHAT IF, if she and Eugen had stayed to gether could she have gone to the ports in beast or St. Nazaire?
NIKKI

[Latro]

I read from several sources that the Bismarck could have been saved by using explosive charges to remove the stuck rudder and use some thingy I forgot the name of to steer for friendly ports (and more important, air cover).

It might have worked, or not ... but it seems they didn't even try.


:cool:

[NASAAN101]

YA, but she had three small propellers and during her trails steering with just her propellers ws very hard to do, so that why she be came a sitting-duak
NIkki

[Latro]

YA, but she had three small propellers and during her trails steering with just her propellers ws very hard to do, so that why she be came a sitting-duak
NIkki

I believe it was dragging a sea-anchor behind them to keep on course. Besides, they didn't have to steer any tight corners, just a straight line to France would be good enough.


:cool:

[Stealth]

I read from several sources that the Bismarck could have been saved by using explosive charges to remove the stuck rudder and use some thingy I forgot the name of to steer for friendly ports (and more important, air cover).

It might have worked, or not ... but it seems they didn't even try.


:cool:


Actually that idea was passed around, but the seas were too rough for that kind of work. Remember, she was on the open seas, and the Atlantic can be a bit rough.

[NASAAN101]

they tryed to steer with the two outer propellers, but it was very very hard.
NIKKI