the Italians...

[Major Adler]

I really like the Italian selection of ships...you get the entire run of ships required to set sail with a task force...BB , CA , CL and DD...

no CVA?...big deal...for air support I will make use of the Stuka...which I have learned the Italians flew...

I do hope either the Italian CA , CL or DD have decent AA...

[hornet69]

yes good force to start with for the italians .but no air units .

[Joisey]

I really like the Italian selection of ships...you get the entire run of ships required to set sail with a task force...BB , CA , CL and DD...

no CVA?...big deal...for air support I will make use of the Stuka...which I have learned the Italians flew...

I do hope either the Italian CA , CL or DD have decent AA...


Don't get your hopes up. The Italians were not known for having generous AA. They weren't the only nation to lag behind the air defence curve, but lag they did.

[Legbiter]

The Italians also have an MTB, which is fitting since they invented the modern form of the things. And although I agree about Italian AA not being all that marvellous Italian fighters were pretty good, somewhat let down by strange unit rotation protocols, but still convinced that man-for-man they were better than the allies AND the Germans, which latter they rather held in contempt for [as they saw it] running away while they did the real air-fighting.

[horacus]

Well, for AA they will count, for this set, whit the German support.

[MarcusAurelius]

I really like the Italian selection of ships...you get the entire run of ships required to set sail with a task force...BB , CA , CL and DD...

no CVA?...big deal...for air support I will make use of the Stuka...which I have learned the Italians flew...

I do hope either the Italian CA , CL or DD have decent AA...

Agreed. While I was hoping for an Italian aircraft unit (specifically the Savoia-Marchetti SM.79 Sparviero), this looks like a pretty well-balanced force and a good start for Set 1. I've also read that the Italian air force received substantial numbers of Stuka dive bombers.

Hopefully, Set 2 will fill in most of the gaps for the Regia Marina. I'd expect to see another BB, CA, CL and DD plus at least one aircraft unit — whether it's a patrol bomber, torpedo bomber or escort fighter.

[Major Adler]

even the Stuka should have a pretty good chance at shooting down a Swordfish or a Dauntless...so I will not hesitate to use them as CAP...while I rush the opposing fleet with my surface combat force...

my opponent upon seeing my Stukas will have to decide if he wants to escort his bombers...or hang back his fighters to CAP his carrier...leaving me an option...

[XAos]

even the Stuka should have a pretty good chance at shooting down a Swordfish or a Dauntless...
A Swordfish perhaps. I'd guess your mistaking the Dauntless for something else. :confused:
Dauntless divebombers were dangerous opponents even for a Zero. A Stuka should have no chance against a Dauntless. I suppose the game stats might make the Stuka a lot better fighter than it was historically...

[Legbiter]

I thought the Swordfish was quite a robust aircraft that gave a good account of itself in air-to-air combat. I'm unable to prove that from any source I can here access, but whilst looking I unearthed the following completely irrelevant little gem, which I just HAD to share:

"The Fieseler Storch was the last dogfight victim of the western front. Pilot Duanes Francies and his observer, Lieutenant William Martin, of the 5th US Army Division, spotted a Storch circling below them while looking for ground targets in their Piper Cub. Diving on the Storch, the two men opened fire with their Colt .45s and the plane spiraled to the ground. After a short gun battle, Francies and his observer took the two Germans into custody. Lt. Martin was awarded the Air Medal for his part in the fight, but Francies would have to wait until the story was reported in Cornelius Ryan's book "The Last Battle," to finally be awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross. The USAF was 22 years late. Apart from being the last Luftwaffe plane lost in the west, this Storch was also the only enemy plane downed by pistol fire during the war."

-From the Warbirds site.

[Major Adler]

what makes the Dauntless such a good dogfighter is it's ability to pull so many Gs without breaking up...the Stuka can pull more Gs than the Dauntless...

[TheFoeHammer]

what makes the Dauntless such a good dogfighter is it's ability to pull so many Gs without breaking up...the Stuka can pull more Gs than the Dauntless...

Yes but the Dauntless has about 60 km/h in speed and more than twice the climb speed of the Stuka. Like many German "specialty" aircraft in certain situations its great (for the Stuka diving from above and pulling out) but overall they have weaknesses in hard pressed air-to-air combat.

[Major Adler]

a U.S. player launches an air attack against my Italian fleet...he keeps his Wildcat unit back for CAP of his carrier...he comes at the Italian fleet with 2 Dauntless...I put up 2 Stukas up as a CAP...now are you saying that my two Stukas would not break up the attack on the ships...

there is no way that the Dauntless could ignore the Stuka and go ahead and make a Dive Bomb attack...if so there is something wrong with the game...the Dauntless pilot upon seeing aircraft at a higher alt. (flying CAP) would dump his bombs and head for home...attack over...

and I am pretty sure that the Swordfish and Devestator are not quite up to par with the Stuka in air-to-air combat...

this all of course depends upon initiative...just saying...but those fleet out there without carriers should not be all that fearful of fleets that do...

[TheFoeHammer]

a U.S. player launches an air attack against my Italian fleet...he keeps his Wildcat unit back for CAP of his carrier...he comes at the Italian fleet with 2 Dauntless...I put up 2 Stukas up as a CAP...now are you saying that my two Stukas would not break up the attack on the ships...

there is no way that the Dauntless could ignore the Stuka and go ahead and make a Dive Bomb attack...if so there is something wrong with the game...the Dauntless pilot upon seeing aircraft at a higher alt. (flying CAP) would dump his bombs and head for home...attack over...

and I am pretty sure that the Swordfish and Devestator are not quite up to par with the Stuka in air-to-air combat...

this all of course depends upon initiative...just saying...but those fleet out there without carriers should not be all that fearful of fleets that do...

A) I don't think I said this at all. I believe I was just comparing the dogfight capabilities of the two planes by something more than just the number of G forces it could withstand.

B) I don't think I'd ever put up Stukas for CAP.

C) If I were leading the Dauntless group and I had the fuel, I would climb, shoot down the Stukas with my better armament, speed, and altitude, then attack the ship. But typically US planes had escort if they could all stay on course and make the rally point.

[Bellerophon]

I think it would depend more on which variant of each plane would be involved in the dogfight and whether each aircraft would be carrying bombs. If the Stuka G, with the twin 20mm cannons and no bombs, was flying CAP I think that it would have a fair advantage over a Dauntless loaded down with bombs. However, an unloaded Dauntless would probably have the advantage of speed and armor over Stuka.

[Major Adler]

for the clarification with A)...

as for B)...well what other plane were the Italians or Germans given?...depending on the initiative roll...I think they will work very well for CAP...

as for C)...while I will give you the fact that a Dautless could fight a Stuka even-up in a dog fight...the Dautless has no chance unless it drops its bombs...and then...no ship attack...right...

[Bellerophon]

for the clarification with A)...

as for B)...well what other plane were the Italians or Germans given?...depending on the initiative roll...I think they will work very well for CAP...

as for C)...while I will give you the fact that a Dautless could fight a Stuka even-up in a dog fight...the Dautless has no chance unless it drops its bombs...and then...no ship attack...right...
In the Med and Eastern Atlantic, the Italians or Germans would usually have had support from other land-based aircraft like the Messerschmitt or the Focke-Wulf, or Macchi 202 for the Italians. Much better dogfighters! Sicily and North Africa were major air-bases for Axis aircraft to support naval actions. Maybe we can hope for some other Axis aircraft to fill this role.

[Diamondback]

and I am pretty sure that the Swordfish and Devestator [sic] are not quite up to par with the Stuka in air-to-air combat...

Yes, but you must remember, in an air context, look up "Suck-tacular" in the dictionary and one of the listings will be "See also: TBD Devastator." If they could get close enough to connect with their torps and something else kept the fighters busy, they were OK; otherwise, Zero-bait best used as a diversion so that the dive-bombers can get through.

[XAos]

there is no way that the Dauntless could ignore the Stuka and go ahead and make a Dive Bomb attack...if so there is something wrong with the game...the Dauntless pilot upon seeing aircraft at a higher alt. (flying CAP) would dump his bombs and head for home...attack over...

Dauntless pilots didn't "dump bombs & run" against Zeros.:eek: so I doubt they would have done so against a Stuka. They would have just shot the thing down, they did have more MG's than a Stuka.

[TheFoeHammer]

for the clarification with A)...

as for B)...well what other plane were the Italians or Germans given?...depending on the initiative roll...I think they will work very well for CAP...

as for C)...while I will give you the fact that a Dautless could fight a Stuka even-up in a dog fight...the Dautless has no chance unless it drops its bombs...and then...no ship attack...right...


I think what you are really getting at here is whether or not the mechanics of the game will allow the Stuka to adequately disrupt a bomber attack. And to that I say, I don't know until I see it's stats.

To force an air attack to abort all it needs to do is score a number of successes equal to the aircraft's armor rating. (to completely destroy has to equal it's vital armor).

The two planes we have seen so far have armor of 6 and vital armor of 8 or 9. Since they are both fighters they have anti-air values of 7. Ignoring special abilities like escort and defending the flattop, we can assume that even these planes will have trouble disrupting enemy air attacks. With 7 dice I would probably on average roll 4.666 successes. This is based on the assumption that out of every 6 dice I average 1 of each number, which would be 4 successes since a 6 counts as 2 successes. The extra dice will on occassion be a miss and on some occassions be 1 or 2 successes.

So I think an abort against these attackers will be an above average lucky occurrence due to a fighter attack, but special abilities will certainly make this more possible and a bomber may have lower armor and vital armor to reflect their vulnerability.

So the real deciding factor as to whether the Stuka will make a good CAP in the game will be its anti-air dice and the incoming bomber's armor. Knowing the primary purpose of the Stuka I am betting it will have a chance of disrupting but not as good a chance as the two fighters we have seen already, especially if those fighters are utilizing their SAs and the SAs of a carrier they are defending.

The mechanics of the game do not seem to support a simple factor of, I have an aircraft group there, so you must abort.

So I am really looking forward to seeing stats on a bomber. My hopes are the armor and vital armor are a little lower, 4 or 5 for armor and 6 or 7 for vital seems about right. This way the escort ability interactions and/or uncommon luck would be the only thing to ensure a bomber gets through against good cap.

[Major Adler]

read my posts...Dauntless pilots would dump their bombs to dogfigth Zeros...and that means the end of the attack on the ships...

a Dauntless cannot dog fight a Zero with a 500 lb. bomb strapped on...

[Major Adler]

I think this game is going to be very very basic...the Stuka does not have a great chance at aborting an air attack...but it does have a chance...and since who ever is playing a Stuka probably will not have a carrier...that means..."as I estimate it"...IMO...that that player could field 6 stukas compared to a carrier and 3 airgroups...with a Wildcat , Devastator and Dauntless attacking...6 Stukas would have some effect at breaking up an attack...

either carriers have a super ability we have not seen...or this may become a surface combat game since the carriers have no hidden movement that we know of...

allowing aircraft (carrier or land based) to attack ships that none of their friendly units have contact with...just seems wrong...

[Joisey]

Dauntless pilots didn't "dump bombs & run" against Zeros.:eek: so I doubt they would have done so against a Stuka. They would have just shot the thing down, they did have more MG's than a Stuka.

Agreed. Major Adler is really selling the Dauntless pilots short. They flew on in the face of enemy CAP at Midway. Your'e lucky all those guys have passed away, else they'd show up at your house to kick your behind.

[Joisey]

I think it would depend more on which variant of each plane would be involved in the dogfight and whether each aircraft would be carrying bombs. If the Stuka G, with the twin 20mm cannons and no bombs, was flying CAP I think that it would have a fair advantage over a Dauntless loaded down with bombs. However, an unloaded Dauntless would probably have the advantage of speed and armor over Stuka.

Yeah, like tank busters would ever be flying naval air CAP.......:rolleyes:

[Joisey]

I think this game is going to be very very basic...the Stuka does not have a great chance at aborting an air attack...but it does have a chance...and since who ever is playing a Stuka probably will not have a carrier...that means..."as I estimate it"...IMO...that that player could field 6 stukas compared to a carrier and 3 airgroups...with a Wildcat , Devastator and Dauntless attacking...6 Stukas would have some effect at breaking up an attack...

either carriers have a super ability we have not seen...or this may become a surface combat game since the carriers have no hidden movement that we know of...

allowing aircraft (carrier or land based) to attack ships that none of their friendly units have contact with...just seems wrong...


If I like everything else about the game, it'll take me two seconds to devise a house rule for hidden strategic movement. Any makeshift screen across the table will do.

For tactical movement, it wouldn't be that hard to adapt the movement rules from star fleet battles, if you wanted that kind of combat system. All you would need is a hex map and an impulse chart. 32 knots is around top speed for most ships of the era. Anybody know how fast a typical torpedo moved at?

[Major Adler]

OK experts...

anyway...the more I see of this game...the less I think I will buy into it...have fun house ruling it to death...

[Major Adler]

for those who have taken Joisey's coments too heart...and have PMed me...

I have been arguing game mechanics here...and used the Stuka / Dauntless match up as an example since those planes are in the game...it was not my intent at any time to insult the Midway Dauntless pilots or any other U.S. combat veteran...

Joisey...nice sucker punch...

[Count_Ciano]

IIRC, didn't the luftwaffe have an airgroup stationed in Italy specifically for working with the Italian navy as well as attacking Allied shipping? Fleigerkorps X, if I'm not mistaken...

[TheFoeHammer]

I think this game is going to be very very basic...the Stuka does not have a great chance at aborting an air attack...but it does have a chance...and since who ever is playing a Stuka probably will not have a carrier...that means..."as I estimate it"...IMO...that that player could field 6 stukas compared to a carrier and 3 airgroups...with a Wildcat , Devastator and Dauntless attacking...6 Stukas would have some effect at breaking up an attack...

That I think will be one flaw of the game. There appears to be no way to combine the power of multiple air groups to succeed against a unit it could otherwise not force an abort against. 6 Stuka units should have some sort of combined strength to fend off a single bomber, but the way attacks will get resolved they won't. The only benefit having 6 will do is to get more chances to try and hit it at a low probability.

Maybe we'll get lucky and have some rule regarding the number of CAP you go up against having more dice added which each subsequent attack, but I doubt it.

[TheFoeHammer]

Yeah, like tank busters would ever be flying naval air CAP.......:rolleyes:

Actually there were naval variants of the Stuka. Probably not for CAP, but also not as "tank busters" either. More likely "transport busters".

[Richter von Manthofen]

The Stuka was NOT a tank buster per se it was a dive bomber like so many in WWII. And yes there was a Naval Variant Stuka C with foldable wings.

[Legbiter]

I don't think it's a completely daft idea to use Stukas for CAP. During Rheinubung, the commander of the Bismarck considered launching the ship's low-wing monoplane fixed-undercarriage Arado floatplanes to intercept a British Catalina. He didn't do it only because he didn't think he would be able to recover the planes/crews in the prevailing heavy seas.

It's interesting that Major Adler's main concern for his Italian fleet is CAP, because that was exactly the position taken by the Italian Admiralty. If completed, the carrier Aquila would have flown about 60 Reggiane Re 2001 fighters and no bombers or recon planes AT ALL [admittedly the Re 2001 could act as a fighter-bomber, and there was even an experimental torpedo-fighter version]. Land-based Re 2001s, as well as Macchi 202s, did fly escort for Axis bombers and torpedo planes, for example during operation Pedestal.

With this in mind, I have another suggestion to make, which is to substitute British aircraft for the Italian ones. At this scale a Reggiane 2001 wouldn't be that dissimilar to a Sea-Hurricane; for that matter, a Swordfish looks quite like an Re-43. You could probably get away with just painting the roundels white and 3 parallel fore-and-aft lines inside them for the fasces.

[Almirant Campioni]

I want to see the italians. They have 3 capital ships, a motor, a submarine and a destroyer.
Vitorio venetto have 9 guns 380mm greater than the bismark, normally have a main attack range 0- 16, range 1- 15, range 2- 14 and range 3- 12.
Bolzano have 8 guns 203mm equal than Tone, allready similar main attack 9-9-8-6.
Duca d'aosta have 8 guns 152mm equal than Ajax main attack 7-7-6-5.
Then their hull or armor i dont no but i think than similar.

Thanks;.