Overwatch

[DarkMercy]

I really, really like this rule. Anti-tank need this sort of thing, and it brings them more in line with historical usage, I think. Overwatch may slant assault scenarios too much toward th defender though. I'll try it out tonight. Congratulations WOTC, you found something to tear me away from my newZelda game.

[Uncle_Joe]

Yes, the Overwatch is an interesting change. I think it will boost lesser used units.

[shadowhooch]

Yes, an interesting idea. But like Bob mentioned in his article; it REALLY makes AT guns good.

I wonder if HHRs "Reaction Shot" is a better suit for this type of effect where you can choose to fire in your movement phase instead of the Assault phase. You could give it to tanks too on the condition that they didn't/don't move.

With the new Defensive Fire rule and this, I'd hate to stifle ALL mobility as that is what makes this game so strategically challenging. It would become quite boring if it was a line 'em up and roll the dice kind of game. Going to far in that direction should be avoided.

[Khayman7]

I think this rule could make things very fun/challenging.

Isn't there a rule somewhere, probably HHR, where AT guns can shoot 1x per game at a unit that crosses its line of fire if it has't fired yet?

[Uncle_Joe]

I believe the original HHR rule gave the gun +1 to hit on each die which to me was COMPLETE overkill. A 50mm AT gun has a good chance to smack a KV or T34 at range with that +1. That was not necessary at all IMO.

Also, a later HHR rule (perhaps instead of the above) allowed the gun to shoot in the aircraft phase for immediate results. Again, I think that is overkill and simply hurts S&F vehicles more than other others.

I think the proposed Overwatch rule here offers the ability for AT guns to cover their assigned sector without giving them undue ability to affect the target.

As an alternative to a hexspine fire lane, I might suggest overwatch being able to pick a specific hex and then target anything that enters that hex or an adjacent hex. This allows you to watch an area (ie 'shoot anything that comes over that hill'). With a max of 2 overwatch units per side, it shouldnt be hard to designate the units and the appropriate overwatch marker for the target hex.

[Pasalades]

3rd edition Axis and AlliesBoxes provide those numbered counters which would be nice for implimenting Uncle Joe's idea. Several studies of the efficacy of AT-guns vs. tanks so the former was well worth the investment. Its historical ability to close off points of access to armoured vehicles, which were usually limited anyway to roads and scarce firm ground, was invaluable and the cost less to build and train crews to utilize. I rule that gives these units the ability to command strategic positions is IMHO necessary to the game. The caveat of the Overwatch SA as it standsis, as Uncle Joe pointed out, it does nothing for tanks that move during the movement phase. I would suggest that the decision to use such an ability be made at the beginning of the turn and leave it at that.

[OldBloodandGuts]

I'm all for giving Overwatch to AT guns...maybe MGs, too.

Come to think of it, is there any reason not to give it to all units?

[Colonel_Coo]

I'm all for giving Overwatch to AT guns...maybe MGs, too.

Come to think of it, is there any reason not to give it to all units?

Balance. Fog of war. Not knowing where your enemy is at in reality. Lack of negative impact.

[Zeus[BTY]]

I would like to see it limited to certain unit types (MG teams, AT guns, snipers, and any other units known for doing exactly this - waiting for the enemy to come into view!), but not limited in number. Also, only one shot per phase/turn (maybe two for MG teams)! This would give attackers a chance to still swamp the defenders.

[shadowhooch]

Or how about overwatch attacks at a -1. Afterall, unless the enemy stops in that hex, they are in theory moving full speed accross that line and would be hard to hit.

[Domhnall101]

I for one would love to have this. But it must come with a general ssmoke rule to.

[BogenBlitz]

I like the overwatch, but I would suggest the following adjustments: No restriction of a "hex row" being targeted. In the case of a tank with a turret, it should have the ability to fire at anything within range and LOS. An AT gun should have a clear shot at anything within range and LOS in front of the AT gun. (Front as defined in the current rules.)

I like the restriction of two units per turn.

My rationale is that these turns simulate about a minute of combat. Most AT guns could be manually turned to fire on their targets, and certainly tanks had that capability as well. A minute seems like ample time to line up fire on targets within each unit's normal LOS and range.

[Cpt. John Miller]

I think a much easier solution would be to extend defensive fire to AT, AA, MG's out to medium range. If they drive their tank into range of your gun, you get a shot right then. If they park their plane too close, bang-crash. If they come at your mg position with a horde, massacre. With the addition of normalization of defensive fire damage this could answer a lot of the issues they are trying to come up with multiple new rules to solve. Leave the game mechanics alone. This one change should suffice IMO.
And some cool platoons to make more stuff playable.;)

[Colonel_Panic]

I think Overwatch is exactly what I've been waiting for, just like Oppurtunity Fire in SquadLeader. This will make movement of tanks much more interesting. Now you cannot zig-zag between covers to avoid AT-guns.

[Count_Ciano]

You could give it to tanks too on the condition that they didn't/don't move.

I like this idea! It would certainly get rid of these silly "tank ballets" where they just pirrouette around the objective and eachother. I hate those! :rolleyes:

[Richter von Manthofen]

I think we must playtest this ability...

Have you noticed WOTC/AH uses us as unpaid playtesters :D

[Colonel_Coo]

I like this idea! It would certainly get rid of these silly "tank ballets" where they just pirrouette around the objective and eachother. I hate those! :rolleyes:

The rule includes tanks already.

[Autarch]

This is definitely what this game needs. No more Wile E. Coyote tiptoeing from bush to bush while the sheep dog stares on obliviously.

I'd suggest overwatch be granted to AT guns, MGs with 5+ range and ALL vehicles (except aircraft).

I don't understand why it is only limited to two units per 100 points, though.

[Colonel_Coo]

This is definitely what this game needs. No more Wile E. Coyote tiptoeing from bush to bush while the sheep dog stares on obliviously.

I'd suggest overwatch be granted to AT guns, MGs with 5+ range and ALL vehicles (except aircraft).

I don't understand why it is only limited to two units per 100 points, though.

To make the game fun.
I rush a Jeep to the objective. Everything else is in Overwatch. Oh joy :rolleyes:

[Latro]

And here's another vote in favour of an Overwatch-rule! I do have a few things to say about it's current version though:

- Restricting it to a linear hexrow is way to "gamey" for me. This would create crazy situation where an AT-gun can't fire because the moving vehicle happens to be one hexrow to the side ... though it is in full view. Making overwatch effective with only LOS-restrictions would be too powerful though and also not very realistic since overwatch represents a unit/vehicle keeping an eye on a certain limited area. So I'll second the idea mentioned previously: you can "guard" a target hex and adjacent hexes, which must of course be in LOS. This should be an effective and realistic method to represent artillery/vehicles keeping an eye on bridges, roads or gaps between cover.

- Some serious playtesting would need to be done to see if this could/should also be used for other units ... MG's and Snipers come to mind (like someone mentioned before me as well). AT-gun's should have it because that is their main role, other could get it if it doesn't lock the game down into a stalemate every time. Regular infantry shouldn't get it, they have defensive fire to represent their own limited version of overwatch.

- If the option of smoke-screens (delivered by artillery/mortars) should also be included then the game would get a whole extra tactical dimension.


Just some thoughts ... :cool:

[Autarch]

I think a much easier solution would be to extend defensive fire to AT, AA, MG's out to medium range. If they drive their tank into range of your gun, you get a shot right then. If they park their plane too close, bang-crash. If they come at your mg position with a horde, massacre. With the addition of normalization of defensive fire damage this could answer a lot of the issues they are trying to come up with multiple new rules to solve. Leave the game mechanics alone. This one change should suffice IMO.
And some cool platoons to make more stuff playable.


Seriously, that does sound like a workable soulution and I once entertained a similar idea. But I envision defensive fire as a sort of last ditch salvo of desperation against a unit that was about to overrun the defender's position. They call Overwatch ranged defensive fire, which it sort of is but it is declared and dedicated, meaning the unit doing it can't move or attack normally. I assume it still gets regular defensive fire. Plus, it can be taken at long range, instead of being limited to medium. I think that is a fare and reasonable trade off.

[Colonel_Panic]

We testplayed today with overwatch in mind, small assault scenario, italy 1943, US (150p) vs GE(100p)

As the US player, and attacker, and vivid fan of the overwatch (oppurtunity fire) I must first say, it is scary, really scary.

We decided tat Overwatch had to be announced before the first players movementphase (as someone pointed out here) to make it working.
The German player found a perfect place to place a PAK-40, effectivly making any movement across that overwatched line very dangerous.

But, as frightful and intimidating a PAK-40 on overwatch is, the easy it is to flank with a aroured car (in this case a grayhound), which to the scenic route and ended up a few hexes beside the PAK-40, acompanied by a FO Jeep, and together they toasted the PAK-40, who was on watch and therefore couldnät turn his gun and fire at the greyhound to make it run at the last hutinggrounds.

So, all in all:
I just love this rule It is not too powerful as many feared, specially with the max 2 units on overwatch / 100p (otherwise you could block the whole map), and it makes the game so much more fun. No more run-the-open-field with your tanks and hide behind the woods.

[fifleche]

I really like the Overwach option! :cool: More realistic, and helps units that don't see alot of play. Some toughts:

-Perhaps giving it to TD's, but not tanks? That way, we would see some use of the quick but fragile tank hunters like the Hellcat & the Marder II. Besides, that's what they were trained to do, hunt tanks. Tanks, OTOH, were often trained to support infantry to create a breach / exploit said breach in the defensive lines by wrecking havoc in the rear.

-Only units with long range should be able to Overwatch. And only against one unit type stated when overwatching (or perhaps defined by unit type)That way, the HMG's would be really defensive against infantry assaults, ATG's against vehicles, and Antiair units against planes (I know the Bofors/Flak 36 are used as ATG/AI units too, but those guys were trained to down planes).

-2 units per 100 pts is arbitrary. Why? Why not allowing all TD's to overwatch (they need the bonus VS much more versatile tanks, IMHO) & allowing all infantry units adjacent to a leader to do so? Most builds have 1-2 leaders max, and besides, linking overwatch to leaders puts back the Kuomintang leader in the game!

[Autarch]

I like removing the limit per army and trading off with limiting a units overwatch ability to specific targets. In the case of the Flak 36, I'd say give it BOTH options, this would give the 88 more utility and justify it's cost.

From Col Panics playtest, I was thinking that expanding the area of overwatch to the hex columns on either side of the original may reduce the sillyness of cruising up to the target adjacent to the line of fire and blasting it.

[EricM 2404]

the limit of 2 per 100pts is a speed factor, just like the 15 unit limit. If you don't play with the unit limit you shouldn't play with the overwatch limit.


Here is how I would change things:

Overwatch may be used by any unit.
although limiting overwatch to only some units is a good idea, some units that should have it don't. You could go through and pick each unit it would just be easier to say anyone can do it.

when using overwatch point your miniature so that its weapon is facing a hex edge, treat all hexes in that row as if your miniature were in that hex for the purpose of defensive fire.


a crappy ms paint picture the red dots represent the Nashorns defensive fire area.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c281/ErMarino88/thingyoverwatchddd.jpg

[PatriotUSA]

I had already been using this as a house rule for a long time except without any restriction to a hex row and no "two-unit" restriction either. Neither of those restrictions make any sense and are entirely gamey. Anti-tank crews certainly had the ability to turn their guns in a firing arc, as did tanks with or without turrets (using their tracks and repositioning if necessary).

The great thing about an overwatch rule is that it adds value to positions in this game, which are nearly worthless without this rule. There is almost no point in holding a good strategic hill or town hex in this game without an overwatch rule because enemy tanks can just move past you at will and as long as they stay one hex away from you there is nothing you can do about it. With overwatch terrain suddenly becomes very important just like in the real war.

[Latro]

I had already been using this as a house rule for a long time except without any restriction to a hex row and no "two-unit" restriction either. Neither of those restrictions make any sense and are entirely gamey. Anti-tank crews certainly had the ability to turn their guns in a firing arc, as did tanks with or without turrets (using their tracks and repositioning if necessary).

Yes, but overwatch represents the unit keeping an eye on a limited area and shooting as soon as something moves into it ... if it needs to move its gun across its entire firing-arc and adjust for distance as well it would simply take to long for the instant bonus-attack overwatch grants. That's what regular attacks are for.

The great thing about an overwatch rule is that it adds value to positions in this game, which are nearly worthless without this rule. There is almost no point in holding a good strategic hill or town hex in this game without an overwatch rule because enemy tanks can just move past you at will and as long as they stay one hex away from you there is nothing you can do about it. With overwatch terrain suddenly becomes very important just like in the real war.

That's why I would prefer a system where the unit in overwatch covers a hex within line of sight and all adjacent hexes. No silly situations where enemy units in full view can avoid overwatch as you describe, but also not too powerful due to covering everything in view. Just certain areas, as it should be!

:cool:

[Colonel_Panic]

That's why I would prefer a system where the unit in overwatch covers a hex within line of sight and all adjacent hexes. No silly situations where enemy units in full view can avoid overwatch as you describe, but also not too powerful due to covering everything in view. Just certain areas, as it should be!
:cool:

The "one hex row" is intimidating enough, i'll tell you, and I do agree that overwatch should be predefined lines, as moving your 3 ton anti-tank gun 35 meters (110 feet ) to meet a moving tank in another direction (You sit i a forrest or on a hill, not a parkinglot), in 20 seconds is a little too optimistic, as I wrote before, AT guns should have had facing from the very beginning, now we're getting close to a fast and realistic game, and I really like that!

[shadowhooch]

Overwatch is plenty powerful.

On EVERY map configuration, there is a clear hex line right down the middle of the map. Put a long range tank or AT gun at the back of the map right in the middle and you have effectively cut the battlefied in half for your opponent.

Then, add your second overwatch and things get really tight.

This seems.......REALLY powerful and gamechanging. Too much?
I haven't tested the Overwatch yet so I will have to defer to those who have tried it.

[Colonel_Panic]

I just read the overwatch text again, more carefully.
...antitank (soldiers with the Relocate ability) unit during the movement phase or activating a unit during the assault phase a player may place that unit on overwatch...
A overwatching nebelwerfer can really wreck havoc ;-) So, is it ment to be a long-distance AT-defensive fire (or else powergamers will place anything with Relocate on overwatch, like the Quad-50 or mortars.

[Colonel_Panic]

Overwatch is plenty powerful.

On EVERY map configuration, there is a clear hex line right down the middle of the map. Put a long range tank or AT gun at the back of the map right in the middle and you have effectively cut the battlefied in half for your opponent.

Then, add your second overwatch and things get really tight.

This seems.......REALLY powerful and gamechanging. Too much?
I haven't tested the Overwatch yet so I will have to defer to those who have tried it.
The downside for the overwatcher is that he then cannot attack the aroured car that drove up one hex beside him in movementphase... and boom, AT gun gone. So it is powerfull, and weak at the same time, perfect in my opinion.

[shadowhooch]

Do I understand the rule correctly that Overwatch only lasts during that phase (movement or assault)?

This gives great incentive to go first as Overwatch is useless when going second (if I understand the rule correctly).

[Colonel_Panic]

Do I understand the rule correctly that Overwatch only lasts during that phase (movement or assault)?

This gives great incentive to go first as Overwatch is useless when going second (if I understand the rule correctly).
OK, that might be the correct interpretation. We sought it to be over the whole turn. If it is only in movemetphase, then it IS very powerful indeed, and if you declare it for assault phase separately, then it is still a choice to make "watch that line" or "handle my close threats".

I must reread it once more...

Instead of moving a vehicle or antitank (soldiers with the Relocate ability) unit during the movement phase or activating a unit during the assault phase a player may place that unit on overwatch.

OK, the declaration is per phase them, but still interesting, have to replay tonite to see how it works.

[Latro]

Overwatch is plenty powerful.

On EVERY map configuration, there is a clear hex line right down the middle of the map. Put a long range tank or AT gun at the back of the map right in the middle and you have effectively cut the battlefied in half for your opponent.

Then, add your second overwatch and things get really tight.

This seems.......REALLY powerful and gamechanging. Too much?
I haven't tested the Overwatch yet so I will have to defer to those who have tried it.

Another reason to go for a target area (hex+adjacent) instead of a "laser" cutting the battlefield in half me thinks! The hedgerow-option feels too much like a gimmick without any sense of realism for my taste.

And for the exact wording, well ...

Since it's technically not even in a structrured play-testing phase, the wording of the rule is basicly what we want/need it to be. I personally think that placing a unit in overwatch-mode (=skipping an action during move/assault) should let it remain in that mode until it either fires an "overwatch-shot" or ends it by taking another action.

:cool:

[warspite]

I just read it again, and I think there is more being put into this than was said, and maybe intended. It only says, so far, that units can overwatch instead of moving or firing, but doesn't really say when. I think that is supposed to be an option for the assault phase, only, which is the only time ARTY get to move anyway (unless loading, in which case they can't shoot anyway). I think it's an assault-phase only option, for taking op fire versus aggressive movers who are moving in both movement AND assault phases, and aren't being cautious, when they can be shot when clearing cover/LOS obstructions. Then, it won't be used too much, but can give protection to vulnerable flanks when, if you move/fire first, you're not yet in position, and an opponent is going for the double move (last in assault, first in movement), which is exactly when op fire would be most lethal. First player is often paralyzed by avoiding moving to give his opponent a better shot, while being unable to shoot back, anyway. This (somewhat) negates that, allowing a first-shooter to hold some back and return fire when the opponent moves into HIS range second.

I don't think it makes much sense as both movement and assault phase, as it will paralyze the game, esp. if people push to open the fire lines to cover more ground. Maybe designating "front" only, or a 60-degree sighted zone, but only upon being first to shoot, and forgoing your first fire option, as well as movement.

[tragicmishap]

[QUOTE=shadowhooch;230380]Yes, an interesting idea. But like Bob mentioned in his article; it REALLY makes AT guns good.
QUOTE]

AT Guns were worthless to begin with. Even the better ones like the Entrenched and Pak 40 were not worth playing seriously. This doesn't really make AT Guns exceedingly overpowered. It makes them more playable, and I think that's exactly what they wanted out of this.

For the record, I love Overwatch. In the standard rules it's very easy to move around in an opposing unit's LOS without allowing them a shot. I took advantage of it, but it rubbed me the wrong way. The main way Overwatch will affect the game IMO is being able to limit your opponent's movements during their assault phase when they go second. That changes a lot of the dynamics of the game. As warspite hinted above, Overwatch can take away one of the main advantages of going second.

[Uncle_Joe]

I think with Overwatch, units with Strike and Fade becomes almost worthless. Whats the point of being able to move after you shoot if you are killed by Overwatch before you can shoot?

Considering the type of lite tactical game A&AM is (as opposed to even attempting to be a 'sim), I'm not convinced Overwatch is a good thing for the game. However, if it IS going to be present, my feeling is that it should be reserved for AT guns rather than letting any units do it.

[warspite]

I think with Overwatch, units with Strike and Fade becomes almost worthless. Whats the point of being able to move after you shoot if you are killed by Overwatch before you can shoot?

Considering the type of lite tactical game A&AM is (as opposed to even attempting to be a 'sim), I'm not convinced Overwatch is a good thing for the game. However, if it IS going to be present, my feeling is that it should be reserved for AT guns rather than letting any units do it.

Nah, you can get around it just like getting around most units' defensive fire. If you really want to strike and fade, send another unit through the overwatch LOS, and dare it to shoot. Or, use the strike-and-fade unit to tempt the overwatch unit to shoot it, and not another higher valued asset. Either way, his shot choice reveals his intent, and you can play off of it.

I believe it does specify that only units with relocate (usually ATG's, but this would include heavy mortars) and tanks are what are allowed to use overwatch, nothing else. I think that helps the game in regards to the standard defensive fire, which was curiously restricted to adjacent hexes, even for units with long range direct fire, which were usually antitank units. I don't think antisoldier units should get overwatch, because it's not at all necessary; soldiers don't normally scoot four hexes in and out of a MG's LOS in the same movement. they'll get theirs the usual way.

[fifleche]

IMHO, overwatch should be limited to "prefered targets".

ATG VS vehicles
HMG's VS infantry
AA VS airplanes

That way, you would actually have to use COMBINED ARMS to deal with a set-up & waiting enemy (i.e.: overwatching). Got an ATG blocking your way? Send in the troops! A MG-42 menaces to shred your troops, send in a tank! And a setup AA unit would deter some aircraft from attacking, because as soon as you start your dive, you see some flak trailing you... Yet most AA attacks at long range would most likely cause disruption, which represents the plane zig-zaging to his target rather than a straight dive.

A nest containing an ATG & a HMG blocks you? Flank him! Remember overwatch is not 360 degrees!

On a side note, I find the "line of death" a bit silly, as the limitations of hexes would sometime not allow for overwatching an area even if it's plainly in LOS, and the "target hex & surrounding" could get complicated to identify & remember which is which, especially in larget pts matches. I would personally go for a "cone shape" up to medium range. Face one hex-side when overwatching, and you can overwatch along the hex-lines going from there, up to medium range (4 hexes/400m).

[Cavalry_Charge]

I love this rule...nice job WOTC.

I'm a little confused about whether limiting the type of unit who can overwatch is at issue or not...personally I like it the way it is written. The units currently identified as having the capability are the ones that would typically provide overwatch anyway (tanks, MG's, AT guns).

I also like the suggestion that units using overwatch must declare at the end of the assault phase so that it goes into effect the next turn. I do also think the unit should be permitted to move on the same turn as it declares overwatch for the next turn...just makes sense to me to simulate the unit moving into position to overwatch an area in support of offensive / defensive operations the following turn.

Since the point of overwatch is to deny the enemy movement through a particular area...along a certain road, through a mountain pass...really any terrain...in support of another unit, designating either a row OR a specific hex would work I believe.

This rule compliments the enfilade rule as well, providing a balance. If I were attacking, I would maneuver into a position where I could enfilade. If I were defending, I would set up overwatch to deny an avenue of maneuver, preventing enfilade. Works as well with tanks. If attacking, I am gonna do all I can to maneuver to the flanks and rear of my oponent. If defending, I am gonna do all I can to overwatch lanes of maneuver to my flanks, denying my oponent flanking attacks...very cool.

I love the realism this rule adds...it, combined with others promotes maneuver, while providing a balance with capabilities that inhibit maneuver...more planning and thought in the game...once again, major cool.

[tragicmishap]

Overwatch:
Instead of moving a vehicle or antitank (soldiers with the Relocate ability) unit during the movement phase or activating a unit during the assault phase a player may place that unit on overwatch. That unit may not move or fire during that phase. The unit placed on Overwatch must be placed facing a hex side. If the unit has a turret, you may face the unit one direction and point the turret in a different direction, the direction the turret is facing is the direction of Overwatch. Place an Overwatch counter on that unit to mark it being on Overwatch.

If an enemy unit enters a hex of the hex row that the Overwatching unit is facing, then the unit placed on Overwatch may make a Defensive Fire attack on the moving unit. Remove the Overwatch counter when the unit fires or at the Casualty Phase. A player may place only 2 units on Overwatch at any one time (this limit applies per 100 points of units allowed by the scenario, so in larger scenarios more units may be placed on Overwatch).


There is no unit limitation in this current version. Plus only allowing two units at a time to do this I think limits it quite a bit.

[Colonel_Coo]

Fundamental review of Overwatch:

New counters needed: prefer a new color.

Goal of overwatch: allow a unit that historically filled this roll to fire on units as they move past the Overwatch Line of site.

Flaws with Overwatch as written: convoluted declaration phase. Person with Initiative can ignore enemy units during movment that were previously assigned to overwatch duty.

Overwatch creates "instant kill" opportunity ala flamethrower.

Rules for Overwatch only trigger on "entry". If unit is in hex being Overwatched, he cannot be fire at for leaving or standing still.


Proposal
Declaration Restrictions:
Only non-disrutped and non-damaged unit are allowed to be declared into overwatch. Only 2 units per 100 points of army build may be declared into over watch. Units with Limited Ammo are ineligiable.

Eligible units:
All tanks and tank destroyers.
Soldiers with speed 0 or those adjacent to friendly commander of the same nationality.

Range & Effect: An Overwatch marker is placed on the unit. A second overwatch marker is placed in the target hex which must be within range and Line of sight of the corresponding unit being placed into overwatch.
Any unit that: moves into, is placed into, attempts to leave or remains in, a hex that the LOS line crosses from the Unit to the target Overwatch may be attacked. This attack is a special form of defensive fire. The attack resolves normally; however, all but the last hit marker are placed face up.

Example #1, A UK 17lbr is in overwatch and fires at a passing SS Panzer IV ausf 2 D. The 17lbr rolls 7 successes firing at the rear defense of the SS tank: enough for 3 hits. A face up disruption, a face up damage and face down destroy counter are applied to the Panzer. The Panzer has SS Determination and can move normally; however, it is now damaged. Since it is damaged its speed is reduced to 1. Having speant 1 movement point to enter the hex he was fire upon from, he is out of movement points and stop movement.

Example #2, A UK 17lbr is in overwatch and fires at a DAMAGED passing SS Panzer IV Ausf 2. The 17lbr rolls 8 hits. Enough for 3 hti counters. A face disrutpion counter is applied, a face up destroy counter is applied and a face down destroy counter is applied. The SS Tank is destroyed immediately and removed from the board.

Overwatch Attacks: A unit in overwatch attacking a unit at medium or long range may make one attack: he may choose which attack value to use. This is due to reactionary nature of the attack and the range. A unit in overwatch may make a single Overwatch attack in the Airflight phase, Movement phase and Attack Phase. If that unit makes an overwatch attack in more than 1 phase in a turn, place a face up disruption counter on it after resolving the attack. That counter is not removed during this turns causalty phase. (disrutped units cannot make defensive fire attacks)

Further Overwatch restrictions: All non-aircraft units attacking a unit in overwatch may do so with two additional attack dice. This is due to the static nature of the defense. Units in overwatch may not move or make any attacks except those triggered by the Overwatch defensive fire.

[Cavalry_Charge]

Very nice. I like this redefinition even better...focused, well defined, advantageous attack balanced against vulnerability. Nicely done.

[Latro]

Proposal
Declaration Restrictions:
Only non-disrutped and non-damaged unit are allowed to be declared into overwatch. Only 2 units per 100 points of army build may be declared into over watch. Units with Limited Ammo are ineligiable.

I don't agree with the non-damaged restriction. If damaged can attack normally, they can also attack in overwatch ... no need for this restriction. The rest makes sense.

Eligible units:
All tanks and tank destroyers.
Soldiers with speed 0 or those adjacent to friendly commander of the same nationality.

With restricted eligible units, it might be worthwhile to check if the cap of 2 units max per 100 pts is even needed. Your choice of units eligible seems fine to me.

Range & Effect: An Overwatch marker is placed on the unit. A second overwatch marker is placed in the target hex which must be within range and Line of sight of the corresponding unit being placed into overwatch.
Any unit that: moves into, is placed into, attempts to leave or remains in, a hex that the LOS line crosses from the Unit to the target Overwatch may be attacked. This attack is a special form of defensive fire. The attack resolves normally; however, all but the last hit marker are placed face up.


I like this method. Overwatch is as deadly as it should be, but the attacker has the choice, so to speak, to charge into the line of fire for a suicide attack and fire the final shot before dying.

Overwatch Attacks: A unit in overwatch attacking a unit at medium or long range may make one attack: he may choose which attack value to use. This is due to reactionary nature of the attack and the range. A unit in overwatch may make a single Overwatch attack in the Airflight phase, Movement phase and Attack Phase. If that unit makes an overwatch attack in more than 1 phase in a turn, place a face up disruption counter on it after resolving the attack. That counter is not removed during this turns causalty phase. (disrutped units cannot make defensive fire attacks)

Too complicated and feels too gamey as well, no need for that. Simply restricting the overwatch to a single shot is strong enough ... going into overwatch doesn't make the crew suddenly able to load the shells any faster.

Further Overwatch restrictions: All non-aircraft units attacking a unit in overwatch may do so with two additional attack dice. This is due to the static nature of the defense. Units in overwatch may not move or make any attacks except those triggered by the Overwatch defensive fire.

Don't see the need for the extra dice ... there is no difference between an AT-gun firing normally and one in overwatch. You could even argue they are harder to hit because they set up their gun in an ambush position.

I agree with the limits set on firing normally.


:cool:

[EricM 2404]

How about this extra bit to overwatch

A unit on overwatch may remain on overwatch until the controling player removes the counter during the casualty phase.

this way winning intiative only negates overwatch on the first round.

[Colonel_Coo]

Currently the WOTC overwatch allows an attacking duruing any phase a unit appears in: including aircraft flight phase.

Once the overwacth counter is used, the unit is no longer restricted. That means that the Overwatch unit could DF in Flight or Movement phase, remove the Overwatch counter, then move or fire in the combat phase.

My idea was to not allow any movement for the turn from a unit declared into overwatch. As part of the NO-MOVEMENT ALLOWED & the RESTRICTION of attacking only on 1 LOS that has to be declared, that these restrictions warrant the opportunity for a second Overwatch attack, just not in the same phase. If the unit gets attacked by a unit in overwatch, this is a defensive fire. Let's take a Bofors. It can make a DF against an Aircraft durign Flight Phase, then make a Defensive fire against a soldier in movement, then make a Defensive fire against a vehicle in the assualt phase, then make a normal attack. Folks, that 4 potential attacks.

Thus, given 2 makor restrictions, I thought "1" per phase made more sense, but at the cost of going disrupted afterwards. (note: this makes a Rhino a very good DF platform, as would be a hero next to an officer)

[Latro]

Currently the WOTC overwatch allows an attacking duruing any phase a unit appears in: including aircraft flight phase.

Once the overwacth counter is used, the unit is no longer restricted. That means that the Overwatch unit could DF in Flight or Movement phase, remove the Overwatch counter, then move or fire in the combat phase.

My idea was to not allow any movement for the turn from a unit declared into overwatch. As part of the NO-MOVEMENT ALLOWED & the RESTRICTION of attacking only on 1 LOS that has to be declared, that these restrictions warrant the opportunity for a second Overwatch attack, just not in the same phase. If the unit gets attacked by a unit in overwatch, this is a defensive fire. Let's take a Bofors. It can make a DF against an Aircraft durign Flight Phase, then make a Defensive fire against a soldier in movement, then make a Defensive fire against a vehicle in the assualt phase, then make a normal attack. Folks, that 4 potential attacks.

Thus, given 2 makor restrictions, I thought "1" per phase made more sense, but at the cost of going disrupted afterwards. (note: this makes a Rhino a very good DF platform, as would be a hero next to an officer)

I understand the reason for it, but this solution comes at the cost of a very gamey-feel to it and a few unwanted side-effects:

- the unit can still (magically?) fire more often than other units can
- it gets the -1 defence effect of going disrupted ... and stays like that another turn
- it creates new uber-units because of this effect (Rhino etc)

Since overwatch is going to be a new rule, simply add that once the shot has been fired, the unit cannot perform any other actions that turn ... except for chosing to leave overwatch-status at the end of the turn (or staying in overwatch by default, ready to fire again next turn)

:cool:

[Cavalry_Charge]

[QUOTE=shadowhooch;230380]Yes, an
For the record, I love Overwatch. In the standard rules it's very easy to move around in an opposing unit's LOS without allowing them a shot. I took advantage of it, but it rubbed me the wrong way. The main way Overwatch will affect the game IMO is being able to limit your opponent's movements during their assault phase when they go second. That changes a lot of the dynamics of the game. As warspite hinted above, Overwatch can take away one of the main advantages of going second.

EXACTLY!!! As overwatch should be used...covering movement and inhibiting the enemies movement.

[Cavalry_Charge]

I have proposed to my playing group we try this rule as well on Teusday...as you have proposed Colonel_Coo.

As an aside, lining up on a hex row versus choosing a point target and all that surround it really doesn't match up. The reason for this is that AT guns especially, are flat trajectory, high velocity weapons...they do not fire with any significant trajectory, nor are they set up to do so. Mortars and artillery fill that role.

Now I could see a kind of overwatch for artillery weapons. A spotter must be within LOS and range of a point target to overwatch. If an enemy unit enters the target area, artillery may fire a barrage into that target area at normal strength. Just a thought.