Special Units

[Uncle_Joe]

Again, I like the idea in theory here. But again, care must be taken. I understand wanting to limit certain troops, but it cant be just on 'name'. Sure, the Paras or Partisans didnt participate in every battle, but then again neither did SS-Pgr. So limiting Rangers or Paras but not limiting more 'common' but still overblown units like the SS is a mistake IMO.

Also, certain nations depend on units more than others. The Russians, for example, have no Paras and only one plane (fairly expensive). So, their ability to get at rear area units like Ammo/Fuel dumps is already limited. Restricting Partisans because its 'realistic' can really hurt their capabilities.

[DarkMercy]

On the other hand, enfilade fire combined with a commissar or two could make Soviet infantry swarms very powerful. Hopefully this will cancell out the loss of the partisan, but probably not.

[Uncle_Joe]

The 15 unit limit means that there could easily still be 10+ SS-Pgr. Even without the limit, there is no real way to get around the fact that they are horribly underpriced.

I just feel that restricting some nations' 'Elites' because they have the name of 'Paratrooper' or 'Ranger' or something while allowing 'SS' or SNLF Fanatics to be bought en masse is not good. To me, the restriction should be on 'Elites' which I would define as 5/5 Defense infantry.

And restricting those Elites would go a LONG way towards balancing the game out across the board (ie, 7/7/6 vehicles can affect 4 def infantry, but not 5 defense infantry). Then just provide Platoon costs for certain underused units (for example, a Panzer Platton...2 Pzr III models and 1 Pzr IVg model for 40-45 or somesuch).

[DarkMercy]

I forgot about the 15 unit limit, I hardly ever use it. I suppose that does leave the soviets without much rear area reaching units. After some consideration I think just imposing a limit on special troops would be sufficient. I'd also like to see paratroopers changed so they could be deployed at the start of the game with the rest of your troops, but anywhere on the map outside of the opponent's deployment zone. This would be a bit more realistic, and would simulate the paras holding an objective until relieving forces arrived. A limit on special units would prevent a player from just putting 10 paras around the objective.

[polish_horsy]

hell... I don't know... re-price the SS-PG and the Ranger to 7? Seems that solves many problems if you ask me.

[Qmark]

Are paras and partisans really that unbalancing?

[Marquis]

Ok I've proposed this before on the house rules and we currently play our campaign gam using this rule and I think it solves all the Elite problems:

Any 5/5 infantry or Elite/Vetran tank is limited to 20% of your total points.

So if you have 100 points you can use 20 points to purchase 5/5 infantry or Elite/Vetran tanks. This means that a German player would have to choose between 4 SSPGs, or 1 hero and 2 SSPGs, or three Paratroopers, or a combination of such units or forgo the infantry and buy an Elitle PZIV, the Vet Tiger is now religated to only large point games.

For us it has made all the differnce in the world. I like 5/5 infantry but I also like using my pieces, the 20% rule makes for interesting army builds and inturn a more pleasing game. Plus when one of you SSPGs or Rangers are destroyed you really miss them...

[Qmark]

Any 5/5 infantry or Elite/Vetran tank is limited to 20% of your total points. Why not a global limit of four or five of any unique unit, excluding 'platoon' purchases?

[Colonel_Coo]

You can still use units with Paratrooper. They just deploy as normal.

[Marquis]

Why not a global limit of four or five of any unique unit, excluding 'platoon' purchases?


Because by assigning a value limit you can use more units in a larger point game. 4 or 5 Vet tigers is still excessive.

[Uncle_Joe]

Are paras and partisans really that unbalancing?

Personally I dont think so. The killers are the 5/5 in general, not the Para or the Partisan ability.

Thats why I think its better to attack the problem not the symptom.

[Qmark]

Because by assigning a value limit you can use more units in a larger point game. 4 or 5 Vet tigers is still excessive.So would a "limit X of <shortlist> for each Yx100 points" be more appropriate?
The idea of a flat % is a defacto ban on Rhino and Vet Tiger in 100pt.

[Zeus[BTY]]

hell... I don't know... re-price the SS-PG and the Ranger to 7? Seems that solves many problems if you ask me.

Would seem like the simplest thing to do about this to me too... but the problem is probably that once they start recosting one unit, they can recost half the units!

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see all units getting the right costs - getting the cost right goes a long way towards fixing most balancing issues. Def 5/5 Soldiers especially have proven themselves to be worth a lot more than the designers initially expected.

[Qmark]

;230531']Would seem like the simplest thing to do about this to me too... but the problem is probably that once they start recosting one unit, they can recost half the units!The idea of the cards becoming plain wrong is unacceptable. There's a massive difference between tweaking an SA when something unexpected comes up, and having the numbers on the card not be the numbers the unit really has.

[Marquis]

So would a "limit X of <shortlist> for each Yx100 points" be more appropriate?
The idea of a flat % is a defacto ban on Rhino and Vet Tiger in 100pt.

True it does limit Vet Tigers and Rhinos in 100pt games but that is a small sacrafice for the over all playability of the other units. The only reason I included Elite/Vetran is becasue that special ability is so very powerful and much to easy to abuse, kind of like 5/5 infantry in general. The Rhino only needs a 130+ pt. game to be used, the Vet Tiger however would need a 300+ pt. game. But then the player has an interesting dilema, take a Vet Tiger and no 5/5 infantry or take a bunch of 5/5 infantry and no Vet Tiger... it's an easy way to add a new fun layer of complexity to army builds.

A blanket 20% rule is much easier to implement than having a "shortlist".Of haves and have nots.

[EricM 2404]

units with crackshot,SS determination,veteran crew, and soldiers with defense 5/5 count as two units towards your unit limit

[Vikingwarrior]

I think there are overly powerful units from most of the countries. So if you change the "Elite" troops, which really hurts Germany. What about the Croc which is a mere 35pts? This is a B*&%$# to take out. Or how about the Sherman swarm. 3 for just 63pts??One of the most cost effective units in the game IMHO. It chews up infantry and tanks. The cost of some of the units is the problem. How is a Croc 35pts and a Tiger 63???? Germany's units IMHO are already overcosted which makes it OK to field SS-PZGRS to make up for that. So I think the only way to really fix the problem is to reprice the "broken units". Barring doing that we will probably be tweeking this game for years to come and still not get it right.

[Colonel_Coo]

I am okay with the SS PG's. Tough but balanced by other 5/5's.

MG teams really step up now as well. Much lowered impact of swarms of soldiers at 5/5.

The Enfilde attack modifier is just plain painful! A sacrificial lamb isn't led to the slaughter, it LEADS to the Slaughter. Don't want to waste points? Use a Volkstrum to set up the +1 modifer by your attacking Aircraft and flanking vehicles. Make sure you post your mortars in a corner.

The Partisans are un-realistic for regular battle. I like them, but play them as hidden hold outs. The edge of map restriction is sufficient.

Para's are too good. I don't like and have never liked the whole: ready where you need us when you need us.

[Uncle_Joe]

So if you change the "Elite" troops, which really hurts Germany. Or how about the Sherman swarm. 3 for just 63pts??

At one point, I would have agreed with that. But now Germany has plenty of good cost effective vehicles and units. You want to beat a Sherman swarm? You have plenty of options. How about 6x Pzr38(t)? That should make a nice mess of 3 Shermans and the combine 7/7/6s are about as good as 3 9/9/7s. How about 2 StuGs and 3 Pz38s? Maybe a Hetzer, 2 Pz38s and a Brummbar?

Even a handful of bikers and maybe a hero will kill them. The basic Sherman swarm is not really that good anymore. Too many things can kill them now (and catch them).

Germany's units IMHO are already overcosted which makes it OK to field SS-PZGRS to make up for that.

Again, at one point, yes. Now? Not at all. SS-Pgr dominate the tournament scene (rivaled now only by the equally absurd Rangers). Germany no longer NEEDS SS-Pgr to compete (unless they are fighting hordes of Paras or Rangers which would also disappear if Elites were restricted).

So I think the only way to really fix the problem is to reprice the "broken units".

That would indeed be the best thing. But that is not looking likely. But even the Platoon pricing could help if the overly cost effective units didnt make it into any of the discount bundles.

[Autarch]

We also have to keep in mind how all the other suggested changes affect regular play. Dropping a fistful of partisans in the back rank with enfilade fire is brutal. I can agree with limiting special deployment units to perhaps one (of each) per army or at least only allowing one to use its deployment SA.

Also note this suggestion mentions scenarios, not regular games.

[polish_horsy]

The idea of the cards becoming plain wrong is unacceptable. There's a massive difference between tweaking an SA when something unexpected comes up, and having the numbers on the card not be the numbers the unit really has.

well we all know one of the biggest screw-ups is the 5 point SS-PG which they further screwed up by making a 5 point Ranger. Don't want to mess with the cards? fine. make their defense effectively 4.5 instead without touching the cards...

all non-Ranger and SS-PG units gain 1 dice when attacking Ranger and SS-PG units.

[bresh]

Actually i think the sherman was as big screw up as the SS-PG.
Overstatted undercost call it whatever :)

Regards
Bresh

[EricM 2404]

What if soldiers were only destroyed in one shot from five successes regardless of what there defense is.you could still stack disrupted counters to get a kill.

this would balance units on both ends of the spectrum, a win win in my eyes

[Autarch]

An interesting idea. Just make all infantry 4/4. The SAs and superior attack values still justify cost in SSPG, but I'm not so sure about others.

[Qmark]

What if soldiers were only destroyed in one shot from five successes regardless of what there defense is.you could still stack disrupted counters to get a kill.5-success insta-kill would render the Australian guy pretty useless.

[Major Adler]

heros - one per army.............

partisans - one plt. per army
(partisan plt. = 4 partisans = 9 pts.)

paratroopers - one plt. per army
(partrooper plt. [German example] = 4 Fallschirmjagers = 27pts.

[Vikingwarrior]

I agree totally.

Actually i think the sherman was as big screw up as the SS-PG.
Overstatted undercost call it whatever :)

Regards
Bresh

[Vikingwarrior]

I would take three Shermans in a build over 6 PzKpfw everytime. NOt even an arguement. Shermans can render them useless before they even get to medium range. And then they can take out 5/5 infantry. try doing that with a PzKpfw 38T. As far as the other builds you propose I would still rather have the Shermans.

Rangers are much more of a problem then SS-pzgr. Why? Because the Germans don't have tanks that can deal with them. Almost every single tank the US has can take out SS-Pzgr. I don't know why everyone whines about the SS-Pzgr and not Rangers.

At one point, I would have agreed with that. But now Germany has plenty of good cost effective vehicles and units. You want to beat a Sherman swarm? You have plenty of options. How about 6x Pzr38(t)? That should make a nice mess of 3 Shermans and the combine 7/7/6s are about as good as 3 9/9/7s. How about 2 StuGs and 3 Pz38s? Maybe a Hetzer, 2 Pz38s and a Brummbar?

Even a handful of bikers and maybe a hero will kill them. The basic Sherman swarm is not really that good anymore. Too many things can kill them now (and catch them).



Again, at one point, yes. Now? Not at all. SS-Pgr dominate the tournament scene (rivaled now only by the equally absurd Rangers). Germany no longer NEEDS SS-Pgr to compete (unless they are fighting hordes of Paras or Rangers which would also disappear if Elites were restricted).



That would indeed be the best thing. But that is not looking likely. But even the Platoon pricing could help if the overly cost effective units didnt make it into any of the discount bundles.

[Uncle_Joe]

I would take three Shermans in a build over 6 PzKpfw everytime. NOt even an arguement. Shermans can render them useless before they even get to medium range. And then they can take out 5/5 infantry. try doing that with a PzKpfw 38T. As far as the other builds you propose I would still rather have the Shermans.

Not likely if the German player has a brain in his head. Sure, maybe on Tiger Heaven. But thems the breaks. On other maps, if you cant win with those 6 vs the Shermans you are doing something wrong IMO.

And 6x 7/7/6s is statistically as good or better than 3x 9/9/7 vs infantry (even 5/5 infantry).

How about 3 EP4s and an ammo dump? At worst its mutual annihilation vs Shermans and the EP4s will be FAR better vs infantry.

Actually i think the sherman was as big screw up as the SS-PG.

Well, they are both off by about 2 points each. There is no way a Sherman is worth more than 23-24. The difference is that in a 'Swarm build' you are saving about 6-9 points on the 3 Shermans whereas with an abusive SS-Pgr build you are saving up to 20. THAT is what makes the SS-Pgr 'better'.

Luckily(?), the Amis now also have a stupidly broken infantry unit that they can abuse too. :rolleyes: So they can answer the ridiculous with the ridiculous and tournament builds can be all about Rangers and SS-Pgr (with the occasional Hero, US Mortar, German Sniper etc thrown in).

[polish_horsy]

5-success insta-kill would render the Australian guy pretty useless.

and the Wehrmacht Vet, and the SS-Stormtrooper, and the SNLF Fanatic, and the Brit Para, and the German Para, and the US Para... basically all 5 defense units except the rediculously priced SS-PG and Ranger. So why not just deal with the 2 problem children?

[fifleche]

At one point, I would have agreed with that. But now Germany has plenty of good cost effective vehicles and units. You want to beat a Sherman swarm? You have plenty of options. How about 6x Pzr38(t)? That should make a nice mess of 3 Shermans and the combine 7/7/6s are about as good as 3 9/9/7s. Nope, not against 5/5 infantry it isn't. Sherman can tackle more-or-less anything and I remain in the opinion that they are THE definitive tank unit in this game, hands down. 5/4 defense is enough to remain viable for the whole war, and speed 4 is quicker than most units it will face.

But I digress. I agree with you in the sense that I think Germany doesn't NEED the SSPG, but the Sherman swarm (or it's variations) is still highly problematic, IMHO. And the across-the-board underwhelming AI attack of German vehicles (coupled with frequent low rear defense) forces Germany to field their best AI unit, the SSPG, in the face of such menaces as the Ranger swarm or the Parabomb. If the 5/5 swarms go away much units can see actual play.
And 6x 7/7/6s is statistically as good or better than 3x 9/9/7 vs infantry (even 5/5 infantry).Not that I want to nitpick, but I fail to see how is that possible. Care to explain in detail (perhaps OT, you can PM me if you prefer).

Anyways, play-wise I agree that limiting 5/5 infantry is good, history-wise I have a problem. Let's see & ask ourselves how many of each there were:

-Heroes: A handful in all armies.
-SS-Stormtroopers: likely ZERO, it's a WW1 unit given WW2 equipment :confused:
-SNLF "fanatic": most likely not ALL the SNLF were that fanatic, but still a few.
-101st Screaming Eagles paras: we know the numbers. Not that many, really, as it's just one unit.
-Brit para: A few unit's worth.
-German Fallshirmjager: Quite a few too.
-SS Panzergrenadiers: Whole armies' worth.

See? Historically there WERE SS-PG armies deployed. But that could be easily taken care of by the release of a "vanilla" SS infantry. Perhaps something akin to the Blackshirt or the Garand, but definitively in the 4/4 range.