THE GENERAL

[pauly]

i know this is a long shot...but here goes...
im interested in obtaining all of the general magazines.in the couple of years ive been on ebay,ive yet to see an entire collection for sale.
does anyone know of a possible online site where you can view and download this cracking stuff?

paul

[Alfredo11]

My friend if there was a website that had all issues of the General for download their servers would have overheated and a meltdown would have occured.
But I'm looking too, although given copyright infringements doubt we'll find one anytime soon.

[charles mclellan]

Several years ago, I offered to post OCR copies of the General, an issue at a time, one per month, on the Internet beginning with Vol 1, Number 1. The response that I got was threatening. Not from the any pack of lawyers at Hasbro or Monarch, but from other gamers. I am at a loss to understand why unless they were afraid that free distribution might rob them of potential resale value for their issues.
Neither Monarch Publishing or Hasbro provided any information regarding publishing. In fact, there was some question as to whether the rights to the magazine were sold with the rest of TAHGC. That question has never, to my knowledge, been resolved.
Publishing free on the Internet would avoid any "profit" that could be sought by lawyers of either company and lower the cost of providing the material.

[simply4est]

Have you checked out the Boardgamer?

http://www.bright.net/~monninb/

It's like the General but it's alive and kicking.

[Y2UAsk]

When we redid the website, the question of whether we had the right to republish articles from The General was important. I put it to the lawyers and they responded that as far as they could tell, it was OK (about as definite an answer as I've ever gotten from a corporate lawyer). So I've been reposting articles at avalonhill.com. They come up slowly to be sure, far too slowly to ever make it through the whole run of the magazine. But I try to pick something interesting for each new installment.

Steve

[charles mclellan1]

Y2UASK, I've posted a bunch with ADC2 game modules. All the General articles pertaining to Air Assault on Crete/Malta (including the Cyprus Mini-game). All the General articles and letters pertaining to Blitzkrieg since the 1975 edition rules. Many of the Russian Campaign articles, including the quizes. Selected Afrika Korps articles and quizes from the General (mostly post the 1980 rules edition). And, probably a few others that I can't remember. Some are still available on the internet and some not. All are in Word97 (doc) or (rtf) format. And of course, all the Q&A for those games also.

[pauly]

greetings to you all,
thanks for all your comments and advice concerning the general.l understand that there are legal complications concerning the possible publication of the mag.
listen...if there are any publishers reading this...please no more sitting on the fence,grab the bull by the horns and get this issue sorted!
lets get the general re-published-which it truely deserves and let future generations be enthralled by its contents.
from across the big pond,
paul in england.

[charles mclellan]

Pauly, I don't think that you'll get much cooperation in republishing/reprinting. The "haves" are commanding prices in excess of $200 for older issue of the magazine on e-bay. It is certainly not in their interests to see any of the around 200 issues reprinted. With the ownership of the General in some question, no major company is going to sink money into publishing when claims and litigation expense could easily exceed any gain. Then too, this is a very small hobby and the potential market is exceeding quite limited.

[ February 10, 2003, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: charles mclellan ]

[wiz007x]

That e-bay price of 200, how many issues does that buy ?

[charles mclellan]

How many issues does that buy? One.

Price is largely dependent upon age. Really old issues cost a lot. The only one I watched lately was Vol 4, No 4 (for a friend). It sold for $164.25 if I recall correctly.

[Y2UAsk]

Wow. I have older issues than that. Maybe it's time to photocopy 'em and sell the originals.

Steve

[charles mclellan]

Funny that you should mention "photocopy". Just the other day someone on ConsimWorld was complaining to Decision Games that someone was selling photocopies of "Moves" magazine on e-bay. (Decision Games currently holds the publication rights to "Moves" and "S&T" magazines.) (I think that e-bay policy is suppose to forbid sale of reproduced copyrighted material, but e-bay is not a real good police person of sales on their system.)

[Y2UAsk]

eBay ought to enforce that policy because selling photocopies is illegal. I suspect that eBay would be in as much trouble as the seller if the copyright holder raised a stink. With millions of items for sale every week, though, any sort of thorough enforcement would be impractical. You could build searth filters to scan for descriptive words like copy, photocopy, photostat, and PMT, but even that would probably produce hundreds or thousands of hits per day, each of which would need to be reviewed by a person. Given the relatively small dollar amounts involved, I'd guess it's just not worth their time and money to pursue enforcement.

Steve

[charles mclellan]

Hi Pauly,

First, you can locate and download the files for Air Assault on Crete and Blitzkrieg from this URL: http://209.216.35.195./Game_Sets/Avalon%20Hill/Avalon_Hill.htm. Somewhere in there should be all the articles and variants for AAOC and all the Blitzkrieg articles since the 1975 rules. These are ADC2 modules, but the Word97 documents in them should have the articles. Let me know if you have any problem.

I think that the Afrika Korps articles have been deleted and the Russian Campaign articles are not posted. There may be more if I can remember what games I did.

Anyway, are you interested in AK and TRC? You say that you have 30 games but don't indicate which ones.

I have very few Generals at this time. About 15 years ago while one son and I were on a trip, my wife and another of my sons "clean up" the garage where many of my games, books, and magazines were stored. I wasn't happy when I got back.

The articles that I have converted to Word documents are largely from a friend who has an almost complete subscription to the General - he is missing two. I general borrow the ones that I need when I am making an Aide De Camp2 Module for a game. Then I generally scan or copy the articles that I want.

[charles mclellan]

On e-bay right now there is someone selling a fairly complete subscription of Avalon Hill Generals. It's a little light in the really old issues, but there are about 100 for sale.

[charles mclellan]

Kept tabs on several of some of the Generals up for sale on e-bay. Of the issues that I watched, those in volumes before 10 sold for slightly more than $60 per issue (I think $78.75 the highest, $60 the lowest). Of the issues that I watched, the two issues with volume numbers in the teens sold for $50, and the two issues volume numbers in the 20's are currently selling (still a few hours left) for $30 an issue.
Altogether that is $669.75 for 12 issues. A pretty good investment for what started at $1 an issue.
I recon that is a pretty good reason for some folks not wanting the General to be published on the Internet for free.

[Y2UAsk]

I'd guess, however, that most of the people buying those old Generals aren't really getting them because they're interested in the articles (which were really more like letters to the editor), but because they're collectors who want to fill out the range. I certainly wouldn't pay $60 just to read some old articles, but I might to complete a collection. Having the articles available for free download would have very little, if any, impact on the collector market.

Steve

[pauly]

i totally agree with both of your comments.
there are those people who collect them because of their potential value-and in later years will sell them to make even more profit.
then there are people like myself who are not interested in there monetary value,but read them because of there life long `obsession` with strategy games and the info.from these mags which make the games even more interesting.at the end of the day,its only information which should be freely available to download....christ...you can download the complete works of william shakespeare on the net!

[charles mclellan]

Fine, then convince a "collector" to publish the General collection on the Internet. Most ISP's offer some free space and just scanning and posting wouldn't be a demanding task.

[pauly]

its like music/video piracy.
you can download music and films to watch in privacy of your own home...fine!
then theres people who must have `bought originals` in there collections....fine!
at the end of the day,we want our kids to continue with these games into the future,and making these articles freely available will aid and encourage this.solely obtaining them through the likes of ebay for high amounts of cash is not the way forward.
paul.

[pauly]

hello charles....only got a couple of minutes then i must be off!!!!....as usual!
you mentioned your friend almost has the entire collection....great stuff.
i think he would be prepared to do people copies,for a charge...i would certainly pay...as long as it wasnt extortionate.with the amount of interest in the subject,it would be probably be worth his while.payment could be done through paypal or something...just a nice thought!
paul.

[charles mclellan]

Pauly, That would be nice, except that he moved in December. Could it be that he was disturbed by my constant requests for use of his Generals? :)

Actually, he did leave me with a stack of his Fire & Movement magazines (not a very complete subscription) to sell for him on e-bay. I haven't got around to that yet, but soon.

He is a busy person, so it probably wouldn't be fair asking him to do all the work himself.

I'll sound him out when I send him his e-bay money, if any. F&M isn't the General.

[pauly]

suppose so.i have very little time.....couldnt scan docs,requests for people,etc.hopefully one day,sooner rather then later...all this will be
`sorted` and we will see the magazine on the shop shelves where it belongs.

[simply4est]

Man, if I had the time and money, I would love to start up a mag that had the quality and focus of the articles of General and Boardgamer with the ability to include a game with each issue like S&T, Wargamer, OSS (Gamefix), and Vae Victus.

Wishful thinking...

[pauly]

hey forest,whats your line of work?
anything to do with boardgaming?
unfortunately,im stuck all day in a warehouse/distribution centre, working my bollocks off for next to nothing.
yes,it must be nice working within the gaming industry....there would certainly be `job satisfaction`
wish ld pushed myself into that area after leaving school!

[simply4est]

Pauly,

I wish I worked in the gaming industry - It seems like it's probably harder and more work than it seems to us players, but very rewarding!

Forest

[barron of ideas]

The ownership of copyright is often a legal question that only a court could answer. However, unless there was a contract transfering ownership, the individual articles printed in the Avalon Hill General belong to the authors. I wasn't published often, but I do not recall signing away my rights to what they published. Sometimes they offered cash or credit at 150% of the cash, it was something like $10 per column, with about three columns per page, so a page long article was $30 or $45 worth of items taken "in trade" (games, parts, subscriptions to the General.)

So if you want to print a particular article, contact the author, not Avalon Hill/Hasbro/Wizards of the Coast. I am not sure if Avalon Hill bought the electronic rights to the articles they published. I kind of doubt it.

On the other hand, it is not likely that any of the individual authors, unless they grew up to be Lawyers, can afford to fight with AH about the rights.

I am not surprised Hasbro's corporate lawyers were not enthusiastic about posting the articles on line. I would be amazed if Hasbro owns more than the editorial content created by AH employees.

[mgenberg]

I just put a few of my old Generals for sale on e-bay, if anyone is interested.

[TDCGSL]

There WAS a standard release form required to be signed by an author before an article could be published in the General. I know because I signed one. So, the rights to anything published in the General do NOT BELONG TO THE AUTHORS, it belongs to the owner(s) of "The General".

Rights to articles NOT YET PRINTED were returned to the authors of those articles when AH was sold to Hasbro. I know this too because the rights to an article of my were returned to me at that time.

So, all the complaining by past authors of articles in the General about "their" copyrights are really off base.

[barron of ideas]

THe law of copywright are complex, and in most cases, when articles are sold unless the contract says otherwise, the rights purchased are for one publication in a particular issue.

It is highly unlikely that AH envisioned the current situation with "publication" to include posting on line.

I would be interested in seeing what your contact with AH says. Even if it says "all rights of publication" that probably means in paper form. Details on authors rights can be found in the Scince Fiction Writers website. The on-line publication of stories and articles their members write are of considerable interest, and most of what I think I know about the law in this area is from what I read there and in related sites. No-one is making a lot of money from web publication at this time, but the potential is there, and it is generally accepted that magazines did not buy "web publication" rights in the same era that most of the Avalon Hill General articles were published. And AH procedures and contracts may have changed over time. I may have submitted letters and articles before they started to use contracts. So one blanket statement about who owns the material printed in the General may not fit all circumstances. I still think it is likely that the on-line rights to material written by individuals who were not employees of Avalon Hill belong to those individuals.

[barron of ideas]

The laws of copywright are complex, and in most cases, when articles are sold unless the contract says otherwise, the rights purchased are for one publication in a particular issue.

It is highly unlikely that AH envisioned the current situation with "publication" to include posting on line.

I would be interested in seeing what your contact with AH says. Even if it says "all rights of publication" that probably means in paper form. Details on authors rights can be found in the Scince Fiction Writers website. The on-line publication of stories and articles their members write are of considerable interest, and most of what I think I know about the law in this area is from what I read there and in related sites. No-one is making a lot of money from web publication at this time, but the potential is there, and it is generally accepted that magazines did not buy "web publication" rights in the same era that most of the Avalon Hill General articles were published. And AH procedures and contracts may have changed over time. I may have submitted letters and articles before they started to use contracts. So one blanket statement about who owns the material printed in the General may not fit all circumstances. I still think it is likely that the on-line rights to material written by individuals who were not employees of Avalon Hill belong to those individuals.

[darkmanat]

This is an old topic much discussed on the AH boards from time to time. I am glad to finally see that some one at Hasbro has actualy posted some type of information from their legal dept on this topic.

While I know the subject of copyright law, and contracts on publication rights are difficult and at time arcane. I have seen how much interest the old Generals have and how broad based that interest is to know there is a market for this subject. What I would really love to see (pipe dream though it might be) is a CD-Rom set of all the old generals. Much like they did for the Dragon magazine.

If such a product could be done I know the market place is there for it. Especially if you could include the other AH mags, such as All Star Replay and Hero's. I know this becuase of the comments I read on other forums, and how successfuly Boardgamer has been.

Maybe this project is too big to pull off, or the profit margin is too small, but it is what I would like to see. Both as a final testament to the General and a display of how important it was to not only Wargames but gaming on all levels. :cool: