Cossack Captain Flavour Text...

[Kimblee_Clone]

I read the flavour text on my Cossack Captain, and noticed that it said (and I quote):

"Cossacks fought for both Germany and the Soviet Union during the war."

Why did they say that and then not also release a German Cossack?

[fifleche]

There were ALOT of ppl that fought on both sides of the conflict. Yet, we only have one side. The Poles did fight Germany & Russia in 1939.

France served with the Axis under the Vichy regime.

Itlay switched sides when they toppled Mussolini.

Norway fought against the Allies invasion, against the Axis invasionand then volunteers fought for the Axis, while freedom fighters escaped and joined England to fight for the Allies.

Finland was invaded in 1939, after Poland, by Russia. in 1941, when Germany attacked the USSR, Finland joined them, but they threw off the Germans in their country in early 1945...

As you see, there are alot of people that fought on both sides, depending on the times.

[Volorkey]

(If I'm wrong anywhere her please correct me) The Cossacks were something like an elite fighting group for the Czars. Once The Czars were toppled I guess they hung around. (some gaps in my knowledge here.) When the Nazis invaded some saw this as a chance to take back Russia from the Soviets, others(most I believe) stayed loyal to Russia.

[The_Second_Gunman]

I believe they are an ethnic group in southern Russia they where known for their horsemanship and ferocity in combat the Soviets didn't like them vary much and often used them as shock troop to get them killed

[Predator666]

From what I understand they fought for both sides during the Russian Civil War, but the better ones fought for the Whites which is why they were disliked by the Soviet forces.

[fifleche]

Ethnic cossacks mainly fought against the USSR, if memory serves, because of ethnic pogroms performed against them.

Russia had a military cav unit called "Cossack", too, so that might explain the confusion.

[Kimblee_Clone]

Yes, the Cossack Cavalry....

Before 1900, wasn't there even a Cossack Hussars squad? Or am I getting my Napoleonic French mixed up with my Czarist Russians?

[dictator_wanna_be]

Cossacks are an ethnic group that are known for their skills with horses. They did make up elite shock cavalry units durring the Tzarist rule and had special previlage under the Tzar. The Bolshiviks removed the Tzar and all those groups that had a special relationship with the Tzar were out of power. Many if not all Cossacks sided with the "Whites" (or Tazists) durring the civil war against the "reds" b/c they would lose their position. Long history short the reds won, cossacks lost power and were given unfavorable positions and standing. In part b/c communism supports worker unity over ethnic identification and minority groups that want to be sepreate in their own ethnic comminitees go against this goal. Also the reds didnt forget the cossack role and symbolism under the Tzar. But by the 40's Im sure the Cossacks were alowed to be in the military and USSR did roll back some of these laws to allow more groups to participate simply b/c they needed help... (im sure some cossacks felt a duty to fight germans as invaders of russia, while others fought for germany seeking to restore their status). And yes Napoleon had bad experances with Cossacks in the winter of 1812 ;)

sorry for the spelling errors I just dont have the will power to go through that mess... I hope that helped

[Ector]

Also the reds didnt forget the cossack role and symbolism under the Tzar. But by the 40's Im sure the Cossacks were alowed to be in the military and USSR did roll back some of these laws to allow more groups to participate simply b/c they needed help... (im sure some cossacks felt a duty to fight germans as invaders of russia, while others fought for germany seeking to restore their status).
Thanks a lot for the detailed information! But you forgot to add that there weren't any Cossack units in Soviet Army - there was Red Cavalry. Stalin would never approve the Cossack units. Everyone interested in the Soviet army knows that. So, if you need right flavor text for Cossack units, I suggest the following:

"Cossacks are funny. Next will be the bear-riders!" - anonymous AAM designer.

I don't play the game yet, but already can't stand such ignorance, or intentional falsification just to make the game "more attractive"...

[Legbiter]

Thanks a lot for the detailed information! But you forgot to add that there weren't any Cossack units in Soviet Army - there was Red Cavalry. Stalin would never approve the Cossack units. Everyone interested in the Soviet army knows that. So, if you need right flavor text for Cossack units, I suggest the following:

"Cossacks are funny. Next will be the bear-riders!" - anonymous AAM designer.

I don't play the game yet, but already can't stand such ignorance, or intentional falsification just to make the game "more attractive"...

What on EARTH do you mean by that? Call them what you or Stalin will, it is FACTUALLY TRUE that Cossacks fought on both sides during the Great Patriotic War.

On a different subject, are you the Ector who writes the !Malkavian newsletter on rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad?

[Richter von Manthofen]

Read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossack

[Legbiter]

There were ALOT of ppl that fought on both sides of the conflict. Yet, we only have one side. The Poles did fight Germany & Russia in 1939.

France served with the Axis under the Vichy regime.

Itlay switched sides when they toppled Mussolini.

Norway fought against the Allies invasion, against the Axis invasionand then volunteers fought for the Axis, while freedom fighters escaped and joined England to fight for the Allies.

Finland was invaded in 1939, after Poland, by Russia. in 1941, when Germany attacked the USSR, Finland joined them, but they threw off the Germans in their country in early 1945...

As you see, there are alot of people that fought on both sides, depending on the times.

In his book Europe: A History, Norman Davies provides lists [pp 1325-7 in the Pimlico paperback edition] of the ethnic compositions of the International BRIGADES [Spanish Civil War, fighting for Democracy and/or Socialism/Communism], and the non-German SS DIVISIONS. His point is that world war 2 was a European civil war, and also perhaps slightly mischievously to suggest that Europeans were a lot more likely to volunteer to fight against Communism than against Fascism. For all sorts of reasons I don't think the latter is a serious argument but as you say, a LOT of people volunteered to fight with the Nazis - Dutch, Flemings, Walloons, French, Norwegians, Danes, Balts, Croats, Hungarians, Balkan Muslims, Czechs, Italians, Ukrainians, Russians. There was even a British/Irish battalion, led by a pre-war Army boxing champion whose name escapes me. After the war he was tried and NOT shot, much to his disgruntlement. "The Nazis would at least have had the decency to shoot me!" Spain also contributed a "Blue" division to the eastern front, to say nothing of the Balkan nations who were allied to Germany.

However, I do not think it is fair to say that Vichy France "served with" the Axis in the sense of fighting the allies. They did resist being attacked [in Syria and North Africa], they did offer support to the Iraqi rebellion, but on the other hand they also resisted the Japanese occupation of Indochina [briefly, but the same can be said of their resistance to allied occupation of North Africa]. A French pilot of a Dewoitine fighter was the only individual to achieve double-Ace status first by fighting the Axis [Italians, 5 victories, Fall of France] and then British [5 victories in Syria]. Crucially for the Mediterranean campaign the French fleet at Toulon remained neutral during the Vichy period.

Vichy collaboration in supplying the Nazis and persecuting the Jews is a different matter, of course.

[Richter von Manthofen]

Then you must say that the swedes also colloborated heavily as they sold material (including ore) to Germany.

I would call it normal foreign trade with another country (What would you say if neutral countries would not trade with the US only because they are at war in Irak - Sorry if I get political with this I will immediately stop)

[Legbiter]

Then you must say that the swedes also colloborated heavily as they sold material (including ore) to Germany.

I would call it normal foreign trade with another country (What would you say if neutral countries would not trade with the US only because they are at war in Irak - Sorry if I get political with this I will immediately stop)

I was thinking more of Vichy supplying LABOUR to the Germans rather than material, which latter I agree is normal foreign trade. But thinking about it I am not sure Vichy DID supply labour to the Germans: perhaps all their French forced workers came from the German-occupied territories, and the Vichy authorities vigorously protested at each deportation that came to their attention. Does anyone know for sure?

And in answer to your other point I would think it was pretty silly if countries refused to trade with the USA because of the war in Iraq. On the other hand it would not be ILLEGAL for countries to refuse to trade with the USA because of the war in Iraq: whereas it was [virtually] illegal for countries to trade with the FORMER regime in Iraq, because of UN sanctions.

Nothing in any of the above is the least bit political, as far as I can see - just stating the facts as I/we understand them.

[dictator_wanna_be]

Thanks a lot for the detailed information! But you forgot to add that there weren't any Cossack units in Soviet Army - there was Red Cavalry. Stalin would never approve the Cossack units. Everyone interested in the Soviet army knows that.

Well it is pretty well documented that Cossacks fought for both sides... But you are correct to say there were no Cossack only units in the Soviet Army, b/c of the Communist ideology and its view of nationalism/ethnsity as counter-revolutionary. Conscription brought many into the service against their will (although they were perviously excempt) and hey served in Soviet Cavalry, but after the war things went back to the poor conditions for cossacks unless they assimulated into the dominate soviet modeled culture.

Ahhhhh! now i have to get back to writing my paper for my classes lol these boards are affecting my gpa ;)

[Volorkey]

And yes Napoleon had bad experances with Cossacks in the winter of 1812 ;)

Yeah didn't his entorage get attacked by a small group of cossaks? Up close and personal from what I heard.

[Colonel_Coo]

...

And in answer to your other point I would think it was pretty silly if countries refused to trade with the USA because of the war in Iraq. On the other hand it would not be ILLEGAL for countries to refuse to trade with the USA because of the war in Iraq: whereas it was [virtually] illegal for countries to trade with the FORMER regime in Iraq, because of UN sanctions.
...


Luckily, the war in Iraq is not a war. The USA did not make a declaration of war against Iraq. It was authorized to use military power to enforce an UN declaration.
No member of Congress wants to grant war powers to a President; hence, no dow.

[Y2UAsk]

Lifted whole from a previous thread (http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?t=12320):

There were two types of 'Cossacks' involved in WW2.

The first was ethnic Cossacks, most of whom saw the invading Germans as liberators. Stalin viciously persecuted the Cossacks for decades, and they loathed him. Many of these joined the advancing German army, though they weren't allowed to form their own units. (Hitler despised them about as much as Stalin did.) Primarily, they were salted in amongst existing German units and commanded by German officers.

The second type were 'Cossack' units within the Red Army. These were typically cavalry units that wore traditional Cossack-type uniforms, but most of the troopers were not ethnic Cossacks. Most of these fought with great distinction on the Soviet side throughout the war. That's the type of Soldier the AAM piece represents.

Over a million Soviet soldiers who were captured by the Germans voluntarily served the Wehrmacht in one capacity or another. Hundreds of thousands more served it involuntarily in forced labor camps. Stalin was not a popular leader, especially among Soviet citizens who were not ethnic Russians. Tragically, most of these people were repatriated to the Soviet Union after the war. There they suffered even more abuse under Stalin, who distrusted anyone who spent time under Nazi rule (including just living under Nazi occupation) because their pure, Soviet ideology might have been corrupted by Fascism.

Steve

[Ector]

What on EARTH do you mean by that? Call them what you or Stalin will, it is FACTUALLY TRUE that Cossacks fought on both sides during the Great Patriotic War.

Sure. But look, "Cossack" is not a type of military unit. It's a separate minority of people, formed as a self-willing "frontier warriors" during the several centuries. In 1812 there were Cossack units, and in 1914-1917 too, but NOT in WWII. Yes, individual Cossacks fought in Red Cavalry, but is it a reason to call the unit "Cossack"? Why not Mongols or Tatars, then - they are much more numerous than Cossacks? Why not Jewish tankists (actually, my grandfather was one of them)? :)
There is absolutely no reason of creating Cossack units, since there were no cavalry regiments with the Cossack majority. Why should you call a unit "Cossack" if it has, say, only 10% of Cossacks? Actually, I suspect that designers know little about Soviet army, and that cannot be tolerated. They heard about Cossacks (1812, WWI, etc.), but didn't learn the Soviet army during WWII.


On a different subject, are you the Ector who writes the !Malkavian newsletter on rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad?
Yes, it's me. I'm playing the other games, too. I would happily play AAM, but IMHO its heavily biased towards Americans, somewhat biased towards Germans, and Russians are almost neglected. Glad to meet you here!


The second type were 'Cossack' units within the Red Army. These were typically cavalry units that wore traditional Cossack-type uniforms, but most of the troopers were not ethnic Cossacks. Most of these fought with great distinction on the Soviet side throughout the war. That's the type of Soldier the AAM piece represents.

I don't know where did the person writing that found that info, but it's just an excuse for the designer's ignorance - a bad excuse, actually. No Red Cavalry units wore "traditional Cossack-style uniforms", AFAIK, because all Red Cavalry had a common uniform. Even if they do, does the uniform matter a lot? Since they weren't Cossacks, and weren't even called "Cossacks", there's absolutely no reason to call them Cossacks!
Note that "Cossack Cavalrymen" is the only Soviet cavalry unit available so far. If designers were interested in historical simulation, they should call the unit "Red Cavalrymen". But "Cossack" sounds much more funny, I guess :)

[fifleche]

Ector, you might be interested in this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Image-KubanCossacks1937.jpg
WWII Russia DID field Cossack cavalry in traditionnal uniforms. This photo is from 1937, and the following is from the victory parade in 1945 (by that time, tho, they weren't actually cavalry, but still Cossacks!)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/KubanCossacks2.jpg
Up close:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/KubanCossacks1945.jpg

[Kimblee_Clone]

Beautiful pictures.

Now if you could prove your case that they actually are Cossacks, we could end this argument once and for all...

[fifleche]

Directly from Wikipedia: (too lazy to "proove" something so obvious)

Nevertheless, in 1936, under pressure from former Cossack descendants like Semyon Budyonny, it was decided to reintroduce Cossack forces into the Red Army. During the Second World War Cossacks found themselves on both sides of the conflict again, as most of the Nazi collaborators came from former White Army refugees. Red Army Cossacks fought on the Southern theatre of the front, where open steppes made them ideal for frontal patrols and logistics. A Cossack detachment marched on Red Square during the famous victory parade in 1945.

taken from this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossack).

[Kimblee_Clone]

Fiflech, I hereby decree you victorious. Case dismissed. :cool:

[Ector]

Directly from Wikipedia: (too lazy to "proove" something so obvious)

Well, I'm completely defeated, but very happy to learn something new! If AAM designer that created Cossack units is reading this, I apologize for the false accusation. And I'm very ashamed for not knowing the war history of my former country.
I couldn't believe in this - official Soviet propaganda never said a word about Cossacks, and the traditional image of Cossack was an enemy of Soviet state. But now I easily found some info in the Net that describe Cossack role - actually, there were quite large Cossack units, even a Cossack division! And they were well-trained warriors, as usual.
All that said, I'm still waiting for non-Cossack Red Cavalry. There were 13 cavalry divisions in June 1941, and only one of them was Cossack (plus several separate Cossack squadrons). It's impossible to simulate a historical battle having ONLY Cossack cavalry.

[Y2UAsk]

Well said, Ector. It's refreshing to participate in forums where people own up to their mistakes gracefully, like adults.

And rest assured that there are plenty of us who have nothing but respect and appreciation for the great valor and sacrifice of the Red Army in WW2.

Steve