Opening Salvo 5 is here

[Richter von Manthofen]

Just for your information.

Nice boats both...

[XAos]

I guess we won't know till next week how "flag-1" affects initiative.
If it "stacks" with other flag-1 ships ? Then it might be worth it's 24 points. But you'd want to keep it out of harms way, or one-salvo from a battleships main guns will remove your initiative advantage. Which relegates it to the tactical roll of escourt for you carrier. So you might end up asking yourself the question, "should I play Shokaku+Myoko or 2xShokaku ?". If your playing a large game 300+ points. then you might want to use 4xMyoko class. Just to get a serious initiative advantage.

If alternativly WaS is like some games (aam) where only the highest commander affects initiative ? Then Myoko is wasteing points on a flag value it might never use.

A zoomed in view of Myoko, shows that some of it's Turrets are "rotated". Which is evidence that all of the "Rares" (except the carriers) will have rotating turrets. And explains why the heavy cruisers are rares, instead of uncommons.

[Sean-Khan]

New preview, Cool! Even more cool that it's so early! :D :D :D

It's good to get a good picture of various cruisers. Still, it would have been nice to see something about destroyers, bombers & subs... At least we got some info about destroyers.

Good to see (apparently) some brit & german units next! And advanced rules, can't wait! :D

[Joisey]

WotC seems to be very sensitive to the issue of releasing "useless" minis. That's a good thing.

Cruisers looked pretty good. It's tough to tell from the side profile photos, but the turrets on both seemed to have fairly good sculpting.

[Autarch]

It (Boise) has no defense against submarines, so needs to be screened by destroyers, friendly submarines, or ASW aircraft.

Woo hoo! Sub to sub combat!

But why is Night Fighter only good after 4 turns? Plus, do you have to keep the reroll if the first effort was better?

[Sean-Khan]

Woo hoo! Sub to sub combat!

That's one aspect that I would have loved a lot in modern naval game :) Tom Clancy rocks!

[XAos]

But did subs fight subs in WW-II. ?
I thought the odds of detecting & hitting an enemy sub with non-guided WW-II torpedo were too low to matter. Unless you could catch the enemy sub "unawares" on the surface.

[Der Leiter]

But why is Night Fighter only good after 4 turns?

I don't care for the way this ability works. Your battle starts at noon, the ships open fire and 30 minutes later darkness falls? Doesn't seem quite right. I think nightfall should have been a battlefield condition instead of as part of an ability. Night Fighter could have simply been "Once per game, while under night time conditions, this unit may reroll a gunnery attack."

The Myoko isn't one of my favourite ships, but in a major engagement it's alright.

Plus, do you have to keep the reroll if the first effort was better?

Yes.

But did subs fight subs in WW-II. ?
I thought the odds of detecting & hitting an enemy sub with non-guided WW-II torpedo were too low to matter. Unless you could catch the enemy sub "unawares" on the surface.

Sub warfare in WAS is extremely chancey. The odds are nothing will happen, but there's always a slight chance one or both will be hit. I prefer to leave ASW to the destroyers.

[Lynx7725]

Yes, there were sub to sub battles. Particularly Japanese vs. American subs. There weren't many of them though.

[unc_samurai]

I don't care for the way this ability works. Your battle starts at noon, the ships open fire and 30 minutes later darkness falls? Doesn't seem quite right. I think nightfall should have been a battlefield condition instead of as part of an ability.

Almost all naval engagements begin either at night or before dawn. The latter is more the case when aircraft involved. If I were a fleet commander, I would never wait until mid-day to engage. By then, you've lost initiative, and if you're in a bad position when the sun gets low on the horizon, you're toast. The Battle off Coronel, though an engagement of a previous war, demonstrates this disadvantage. The British squadron got caught by the sunset, and were brilliantly silhouetted against the ocean. Different war, yes, but proof that you plan naval engagements in a specific way.

[Der Leiter]

Almost all naval engagements begin either at night or before dawn. The latter is more the case when aircraft involved. If I were a fleet commander, I would never wait until mid-day to engage. By then, you've lost initiative, and if you're in a bad position when the sun gets low on the horizon, you're toast. The Battle off Coronel, though an engagement of a previous war, demonstrates this disadvantage. The British squadron got caught by the sunset, and were brilliantly silhouetted against the ocean. Different war, yes, but proof that you plan naval engagements in a specific way.

Ah, this would make more sense then.

[swarbs]

I don't care for the way this ability works. Your battle starts at noon, the ships open fire and 30 minutes later darkness falls? Doesn't seem quite right. I think nightfall should have been a battlefield condition instead of as part of an ability. Night Fighter could have simply been "Once per game, while under night time conditions, this unit may reroll a gunnery attack."

I definately agree, under daylight conditions, there should be no advantage, under night conditions, this ability should be more powerful.

Also, I would have loved to see something different today, like subs or bombers, but I guess such is life.

[Sean-Khan]

Yes, there were sub to sub battles. Particularly Japanese vs. American subs. There weren't many of them though.

Interesting. I wasn't aware of that. What was the nature of these conflicts?

[MarcusAurelius]

Another well-done preview. Based on the units we've seen so far, I like the way that the Japanese cruisers truly seem distinct from their Allied counterparts. The greater torpedo range, higher torpedo attack values and Long-Lance Torpedo SA seem to do a nice job reflecting the historical performance of these ships.

It's also good to see that two heavy cruisers with virtually the same point cost (Myoko and Tone) aren't carbon copies of each other.

I am very curious to see how the USS Salt Lake City and USS Baltimore will stack up against the Japanese cruisers. I'm not sure how much the improved fire control systems employed by the U.S. will factor in. But I'd expect to see main gunnery attacks at least comparable with Myoko, perhaps even higher.

[XAos]

Baltimore should have the best gunnary of any cruiser in the game (possibly better than Graf Spee) That might be implimented by a special ability similar to USS-Boise. But Salt Lake City was a pre-war design. And only slightly better than HMS.Canberra. US cruisers became very effective at gunnary late in the war. Early in the war the Japanse cruisers regularly out-fought them.

[TheCygnysGuardian]

What, no link? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=ah/aam/ah20070226c) I think you guys are slipping. ;)

[lubomirvaic]

I don't care for the way this ability works. Your battle starts at noon, the ships open fire and 30 minutes later darkness falls? Doesn't seem quite right. I think nightfall should have been a battlefield condition instead of as part of an ability. Night Fighter could have simply been "Once per game, while under night time conditions, this unit may reroll a gunnery attack."

My guess would be that WOTC wanted to put night fighting rules into the game and came up with this option as a generic way of running with it. However, I would expect that there are optional rules for fighting at night in general (or it could be house-ruled) where you could use this ability once per game, but at any time. The after four turns thing is neat as it means you have to keep that ship sheltered until it becomes more useful to your tactics.

[Lynx7725]

Interesting. I wasn't aware of that. What was the nature of these conflicts?
Err, the nature of such conflicts was that one sub shoots at another? Subs aren't that heavily armed after all... :D

Ok, more seriously, the novelty and nature of submarine warfare meant that little evidence can really be tagged to sub-vs-sub fights. I'm not really digging into it, because when I found out about these I was going through the list of USN submarines lost in WWII, and I didn't exactly take notes, but here are a few:

SS-226 USS Corvina, possibly sunk by a Japanese sub on 16 November 1943:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Corvina_%28SS-226%29

SS-298 USS Lionfish dodged 2 torps from a Japanese sub on 11 April 1945, and subsequently returned the favour against another Japanese sub on 2 June 1945:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Lionfish_%28SS-298%29

SS-391 Pomfret sighted 2 enemy BBs but was prevented from attacking by the presence of an enemy sub:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Pomfret_%28SS-391%29

Thing is, most of the time subs, you don't hear from them.. even those on your side. Often, USN only know about their subs sinking because they failed to report in, and even then, it could be comms problem, or bad weather, or some such. I think it's often the case that it was after the war, when someone got around to translating and comparing Japanese records, that anyone figured out who was killed by what.

And in some cases, even that isn't totally conclusive; subs attacked and killed underwater stayed underwater, so you don't exactly get a good ID there. You just get an oil slick and odds and ends that indicate a probable kill, and in cases where it was sub vs. sub, you might not even get that, just reports of explosions.. which can be inconclusive at best.

[MarcusAurelius]

Baltimore should have the best gunnary of any cruiser in the game (possibly better than Graf Spee) That might be implimented by a special ability similar to USS-Boise. But Salt Lake City was a pre-war design. And only slightly better than HMS.Canberra. US cruisers became very effective at gunnary late in the war. Early in the war the Japanse cruisers regularly out-fought them.

Good comparison — now you've got me really curious to see the War at Sea stats for Baltimore and Admiral Graf Spee.

From the information I've seen, the Graf Spee has the advantage in range and pure firepower per broadside — with its six 11" guns raining down 3,966 pounds of armor-penetrating shells. (The nine 8" guns of the Baltimore still unleash an impressive 3,015 pounds.) But the U.S. heavy cruiser had twice the rate of fire — 4 salvos per minute — as well as radar fire control.

[Autarch]

Interesting. I wasn't aware of that. What was the nature of these conflicts?

The UK sub included in this set, the HMS Truculent, sank U-308 on March 4 1943.

Not sure about the details, but most of the sub vs sub engagements were a submerged sub firing a spread of torpedoes against a sub cruising on the surface (some were gunnery duels). I seem to recall one submerged sub firing at another at periscope depth but can't recall if it was this incident (kind of doubt it since U-308 was lost in a "transit area").

[Hum_35711]

yah. I think that the truculent just crashed though. Could be wrong about that.

[Joisey]

yah. I think that the truculent just crashed though. Could be wrong about that.

Captain: "Give me....RAMMING SPEED!

Helmsman: "Aye Aye, Capn."

[Autarch]

yah. I think that the truculent just crashed though. Could be wrong about that.

What irony that would be, considering how it was sunk in 1950...

[dracos42]

Baltimore should have the best gunnary of any cruiser in the game (possibly better than Graf Spee) That might be implimented by a special ability similar to USS-Boise. But Salt Lake City was a pre-war design. And only slightly better than HMS.Canberra. US cruisers became very effective at gunnary late in the war. Early in the war the Japanse cruisers regularly out-fought them.

The Baltimore, and any Cleveland classes, will likely have the best AA values of any non-AA cruiser. Both classes carried 12 5" guns as a secondary battery. Well, yeah, that means the best secondary gun values for cruisers.
The Baltimores may also be harder to damage and kill then other cruisers.

Mike L.
"No Retreat, No Surrender!"
"It's just a tactical redeployment..."

[dracos42]

www.combinedfleet.com has the TROMs (Tabular Records of Movement) on nearly every Japanese warship, including subs. Go to the Sensuikan section for submarines. The TROMs go from a sub's commissioning to its fate, or what is known of its fate.

Mike L.
have lab coat, will travel
Don't want to hear about no RIF

[RBloom0566]

I don't care for the way this ability works. Your battle starts at noon, the ships open fire and 30 minutes later darkness falls? Doesn't seem quite right. I think nightfall should have been a battlefield condition instead of as part of an ability. Night Fighter could have simply been "Once per game, while under night time conditions, this unit may reroll a gunnery attack."

In Avalon Hill's own game, Victory in the Pacific, a simple mechanic of players choosing whether they wanted to fight a Day or Night action, each rolling one d6, high roller winning chosen type of action, tie resulting in two rounds of Day followed by 2 rounds of Night. Simple yet sweet mechanic.

Aircraft couldn't attack during Night actions. Gunnery combat only at Night.

The Myoko isn't one of my favourite ships, but in a major engagement it's alright.

They were some of my favorites in VitP, but the Tone, Mogami, Mikuma & Suzuya were pretty awesome at Speed 8 when all others were 7 or less.

Sub warfare in WAS is extremely chancey. The odds are nothing will happen, but there's always a slight chance one or both will be hit. I prefer to leave ASW to the destroyers.

Despite Hollyweird hype, it was rather rare for sub-to-sub action unless one was caught running on the surface.

[Der Leiter]

In Avalon Hill's own game, Victory in the Pacific, a simple mechanic of players choosing whether they wanted to fight a Day or Night action, each rolling one d6, high roller winning chosen type of action, tie resulting in two rounds of Day followed by 2 rounds of Night. Simple yet sweet mechanic.

Sounds pretty good. I never played that one.

They were some of my favorites in VitP, but the Tone, Mogami, Mikuma & Suzuya were pretty awesome at Speed 8 when all others were 7 or less.

I think maybe I'm being a little harsh on the Myoko, she's a decent ship. It's just the Tone has been more effective for me. I plan to try an all cruiser fleet in which case the Myoko might become quite useful.

Despite Hollyweird hype, it was rather rare for sub-to-sub action unless one was caught running on the surface.

I actually assumed there's wasn't much of it at all. I think WAS does a good job of it; it's hard to do and not very rewarding... but sometimes you just have to.

[XAos]

I took a closer look at the picture of Boise in preview-5.
One of it's 5 main turrets; "C" turret, just in front of the bridge. Looks very badly modelled.:(

[TheFoeHammer]

Victory in the Pacific is an awesome game and one of the first games I ever purchased. I still have it, I've auctioned off many of my other older boardgames, but I could not part with this one.

I definitely like the way it handled night versus day actions, as it abstracted the desire of both opponents and the outcome of their tactics. However, in a skirmish game like this it would be tough for a player that brought 75 of their 100 points related to a "day" action only to lose the chance to use them due to a die roll.

I think variant rules will need to be used to represent larger non-skirmish actions in the way that will satisfy a true historical wargamer.