WOW...stunning news!...

[Major Adler]

as mentioned in another thread...the advanced rules book will be for sale in shops as of May 25th...what does that mean?...

it means that considering printing industry lead times...WOTC/AH have already decided what the rules will be...and a draft has already been submitted to the printer...

IMO there are two reasons why we have not had a response from WOTC to this forum...

1) - all the ideas in this forum are a moot point...this is a customer feel good forum...making us feel as if we had some say in the new rules...

2) - they do not like what they have seen here...and are worried...because what they have already decided on...is not what we want...

the only positive note here...is that I hope WOTC/AH has been monitoring this forum over the past 2 years...and that some of the fine ideas that had been voiced here will make it into the Expert Rules...but...then again...we have been talking about the 5/5 infantry problem for years now...and it looks like a solution will not be part of the Expert rules initiative...

oh yes...and now we have to pay $20 for rules that should be posted here for free download!!!...

I feel as if I have been HAD once more by WOTC/AH...

[Major Adler]

to all of you that have PMed me the past few days...saying that I am too harsh on WOTC...and that IT WILL TAKE A LOT OF TIME AND WORK AT THIS FORUM , TO GET THE EXPERT RULES RIGHT...well...looks like they were pretty much decided on when this forum was started...we deserve better...considering what we have been thru with this game so far...

spend your money on a FOW rule book...and have some historically acurate fun...

[shadowhooch]

Does "KampfGruppe" mean "Captain Grumpy" in English?:D :D (just kidding).

I'm still hopefully optimistic that it will STILL be an improvement, regardless. They won't make us spend $20 bucks on "nothing" when they are selling boosters with 15 units and cards for $10. There will be a lot of cool things in the box I'm guessing.

[Uncle_Joe]

Personally, I couldnt care less if they want to charge $20 for it as long as they get it RIGHT. I wouldn't mind having a professionally printed hard copy and I'd like to think that they would include something like the Platoon cards in that pack for that price.

But I doubt I will actually spring money for something that doesn't address the key problems. If I'm still going to have to play with a handful of House Rules in order to make the game 'work', then I dont see spending money for rules that are still reliant on those House Rules.

[lubomirvaic]

Major Adler - I won't bother PM'ing you on this one, but I will come out and say that you should lighten up a bit. Remember, in North America, you are innocent until rpoven guilty, so let's give them the benefit of the doubt until a product hits the shelves. This was a distributor release date and things change, so a product could get delayed if the manufacturer deems they need more time. This was the expected street date, but WOTC may change that if they have been listening to their customers and feel they need more time to implement new ideas/concepts. Also, remember that the original post on the website stated that many ideas were set and they were looking at other options. Let's wait until WOTCBob can shed some light on this matter.

[Major Adler]

hey Mons...where is WotC Bob?...

[Hum_35711]

That's it! That's it! Break out the pitch-forks and torches!
ye olde angry mob.

[Autarch]

With an unknown printer deadline looming before the street date, it would seem there would be more feedback from the WotC guys. In fact, I haven't seen anything from Bob since the previous Opening Salvo and I think Mons had a single comment somewhere.

To me it seems they should be taking a more active approach, at least to guide the discussion and get some resolution of the issues before they have to go to the printer. If nothing else, to at least to curtail discussion on ideas they deem unworkable before they explode into a dozen sub threads and polls and draw focus from other topics up for review.

I have to agree with the Major, in light of this revelation (May street date) and lack of official input or comments to date, it seems this new forum is either a tail chaser or we jumped the tracks so thouroughly they washed their hands of it instead of trying to reign the discussion back in.

There is a third possibility, that something other than A&AM has come up that demanded their attention and they will be back soon. I may be grasping at straws, but I certainly hope it isn't one of the other two. I would hope the Expert rules would have more of a modicum of player input...

[OldBloodandGuts]

Two quick points:

One, although I share the concern, I'm not sure that the assumption here on print industry lead times is accurate. I've had some business experience in getting things pushed through with printers, and the digital revolution has really made a lot of important differences in that industry, cutting lead times by quite a bit. In a lot of cases, you can get quoted just by saying "I need x number of units in y color that will be z pages long by this date." The actual printing can be quite fast.

And two, since when has a gaming company ever stuck to a deadline? It would be hard to assume that it is the Eleventh Holy Commandment that this rulebook hits stores May 25 just because AH says so. Even the expert rules were a week later than promised in getting to us online, as I remember (which wouldn't have been the case if they were already sitting at a printer's), and anyone who has pre-ordered Tide of Iron knows that the gaming industry is notorious for redefining deadlines.

[polish_horsy]

yeah I'm as panicky as most sane people and I don't think this is a sign they have already decided things... that's a little too "conspiracy theory" for me.

[Autarch]

All true, OB&G. But my concern (which I failed to clearly mention) is also having time to playtest these rule changes before making hard copies of them. Kind of what I alluded to by Bob and Mons directing discussion so we wouldn't waste time going back and forth on issues they weren't going to touch (recosting,re-stating etc).

[OldBloodandGuts]

All true, OB&G. But my concern (which I failed to clearly mention) is also having time to playtest these rule changes before making hard copies of them. Kind of what I alluded to by Bob and Mons directing discussion so we wouldn't waste time going back and forth on issues they weren't going to touch (recosting,re-stating etc).

Fair enough. :)

[Grenzewolf]

Im not sure what everyone expected to come from this forum but I for one refrained from comment on many of the Advanced rules. I found little discussion but tons of feverish "It should be done this way!" or promoting seperate and biased issues from other threads. Gave me a headache. And when I did read a decent coherent opinion it was quickly buried under 2 pages of rambling before I could reply.

Bottom line is the game is attempting to evolve into something that will satisfy the more "Historicaly" minded as well as even-up the playing field for more diverse builds. Whether it gets there or not is yet to be seen. Course they could be just trying to squeeze the last nickle from us before they turn out the light. One thing is for sure though. Stagnation is the greatest threat to our game.

[Cpt. John Miller]

It sure would suck if they printed the expert rules as is. They are so incomplete and debateable on so many levels, I know I wouldn't buy it.
All we really need is an official 5/5 errata, and they could post that online.

[Hum_35711]

look, they are addressing the 5/5 infantry problem.

1. by introducing platoons with dirt cheap 4/4 infantry. so the basic infantry will see more play

and

2. by introducing flanking fire, which will allow swarms of cheaper infantry to surround the more expensive 5/5 units and take them out.

It's not as though they are totally ignoring the issue.

[NorthernRommel]

Maybe not, but I agree with Alder for once. There are some obvious questions about this I think WOTC Bob and others need to answer. Such as are they going to use the rules outcomes from this forum discussion or not?
Is this forum just a underhanded way of picking our brains or what?

If so then I am gonna have a major bone to pick with them about the use of platoon cards and such.

[Cpt. John Miller]

look, they are addressing the 5/5 infantry problem.

1. by introducing platoons with dirt cheap 4/4 infantry. so the basic infantry will see more play.

The posted platoons are not enough to change the makeup of the battlefield. They have not been discounted enough to make anyone think about taking Mauser Kars over SSPGs. Without an official 5/5 errata nothing will change. Except SSPGs, Falls, SEPTs, and Rangers will be enfilading each other. Big woop. They already chew through infantry, they don't need the help.
The posted platoons and platoon price reductions are a joke as a fix IMO.

[A&Aaddict]

So what if we have to pay $20. I've heard people saying that "I hope this is not one of those things that we have to print off. I want to make this official." So Avalonhill has heard us there and I believe that they will be listening to us before they print the rulebook

[Hum_35711]

The posted platoons are not enough to change the makeup of the battlefield. They have not been discounted enough to make anyone think about taking Mauser Kars over SSPGs.

If the new machine gun rules go through. I would consider taking a german platoon in a 100 point build. I always use the SS-Haupsturmführer. So I pay the 7 points for him. That means that I'm getting three Mauser Kar 98ks and a beefed-up MG 42 Machine-Gun for 12 points.

Machine guns using Grazing Fire may attack all other units that are both adjacent to the original target and on the same line of sight as the original target. That is huge. Put your machine gun in a pillbox, and suddenly the machine guns are competitive again.

So essentially, using the german platoon, you would be getting 3 Mauser Kar 98ks for 2 points. Sure, you're still going to want to back them up with a few SS-Panzergrenadiers. But I don't think that many people will want to pass up a deal like 3 Mausers for 2 points.

[polish_horsy]

If the new machine gun rules go through. I would consider taking a german platoon in a 100 point build. I always use the SS-Haupsturmführer. So I pay the 7 points for him. That means that I'm getting three Mauser Kar 98ks and a beefed-up MG 42 Machine-Gun for 12 points.

Machine guns using Grazing Fire may attack all other units that are both adjacent to the original target and on the same line of sight as the original target. That is huge. Put your machine gun in a pillbox, and suddenly the machine guns are competitive again.

So essentially, using the german platoon, you would be getting 3 Mauser Kar 98ks for 2 points. Sure, you're still going to want to back them up with a few SS-Panzergrenadiers. But I don't think that many people will want to pass up a deal like 3 Mausers for 2 points.

But it is such an akward change. "Hey lets give a really good deal to a few units thrown together in order to correct bad pricing". It is going to feel like an odd patch that doesn't help create more balance. It will just create a different imbalance with less freedom to make your own army due to bundling of units.

[Hum_35711]

You have a point there. But I'm still happy that they are at least doing something to address the cost imbalances and fix up the 5/5 infantry problem. Sure It's not an idea solution, but I think that it is reasonable.

No matter what they do to fix the problem, it is not going to please everybody.

as it is, I think that the platoon solution is a good interim fix that will bring basic infantry back into competitive games.

[fifleche]

Discounting infantry -might- help bring them back on the field, but 5/5 will still be relatively unharmed by enemy attacks.

As is, a SE para can -walk- in a plain and get attacked every turn by a Sturmpanzer, and, unless the German player gets lucky, much, the para will cross the field unscathed.

Platoons are icing on the cake, but the cake tastes sour. Fix the 5/5 problem at the root, fix the 5/5 temselves.

[Autarch]

look, they are addressing the 5/5 infantry problem.

1. by introducing platoons with dirt cheap 4/4 infantry. so the basic infantry will see more play

and

2. by introducing flanking fire, which will allow swarms of cheaper infantry to surround the more expensive 5/5 units and take them out.

It's not as though they are totally ignoring the issue.



Neither of these things address the disparity of 5/5 infantry vs 7/7/6 tanks. Charging a tank head on across open field in real life is considered suicide. In A&AM it is a reasonable tactic with only a 6% chance of death...

[Uncle_Joe]

Not just tanks either. MG fire and even mass attacks by opposing Riflemen can largely be ignored.

Yes, their apparent 'solutions' might encourage more 3 point infantry in various ways, but it does nothing to change how silly the 5/5s distort the rest of the game interactions.

[Hum_35711]

Neither of these things address the disparity of 5/5 infantry vs 7/7/6 tanks. Charging a tank head on across open field in real life is considered suicide. In A&AM it is a reasonable tactic with only a 6% chance of death...

Again, I don't see why you think that 1 tank should be able to totally destroy an entire squad of troops during the combat phase which is supposed to represent 30 seconds of real-time combat.

Sure, I agree, if the tanks had more time, they would totally annihilate the infantry. But lets not forget that the entire match represents 7 minutes, and each combat phase represents only 30 seconds.

But I guess giving all tanks something like an 'over-run' ability might be more realistic. This is a tough problem to solve.

[Hum_35711]

I don't know. The whole argument seems to revolve around the belief that 2 or 3 tanks should be able to take out 100 or more infantry in under 7 minutes. I'm not a military expert, but ... arg whatever. I'm tired. Hopefully you guys can sort of see my point.

[Grenzewolf]

I don't know. The whole argument seems to revolve around the belief that 2 or 3 tanks should be able to take out 100 or more infantry in under 7 minutes. I'm not a military expert, but ... arg whatever. I'm tired. Hopefully you guys can sort of see my point.

7 minutes?,,,, Concidering both my M-240's bark out 900 rounds per minute (approximately the same as the MG-34).... times that by 3 for two other tanks...... add in a commanders weapon station if he is so inclined... carry the 5 divide by 60,,,,, Hell,,, Smoke em if you got'em in 5 minutes top! ;)

All jokeing aside, if those hundred were so inclined to move accross open terrain twords a tank position like they do with impunity in this game That body count would be higher and in shorter time.

[Hum_35711]

anyhow, I guess its not really a valid argument since the whole concept of time in this game is totally messed up anyway. I mean, when was the last time you saw someone carrying 40-50 pounds of equipment run 100 meters in 30 seconds anyway?

and the british guys with 'tally-ho' are even worse. Those guys are some freakin' olympic sprinters.

[Grenzewolf]

anyhow, I guess its not really a valid argument since the whole concept of time in this game is totally messed up anyway. I mean, when was the last time you saw someone carrying 40-50 pounds of equipment run 100 meters in 30 seconds anyway?

and the British guys with 'tally-ho' are even worse. Those guys are some freakin' olympic sprinters.

Adrenaline helps :D But seriously, the battle rattle gets dropped .0074 secs after the first round wizzes by.

As for Tally-HO,,,,,,, its that whole "Chariots of Fire" thing. Ummm for those of you that have no idea what I'm talking about..... Ask mummsy.:D

[boersma8]

Personally, I couldnt care less if they want to charge $20 for it as long as they get it RIGHT. I wouldn't mind having a professionally printed hard copy and I'd like to think that they would include something like the Platoon cards in that pack for that price.

But I doubt I will actually spring money for something that doesn't address the key problems. If I'm still going to have to play with a handful of House Rules in order to make the game 'work', then I dont see spending money for rules that are still reliant on those House Rules.

What he said!

I just had another worrying thought: What if this is one of the two " expansions" for AAM for this year? Who knows what the 2nd one might be! Maybe reserves really was the last set! ( I mean RESERVES. :eek: How much more obvious can a title of a set get before anyone realizes that it's the last one....Well, apart from those addicts like me who spent so much money on sth and are willing to spend the same again to get some still desperately needed pieces for HISTORICAL battles.....) ;)

[boersma8]

look, they are addressing the 5/5 infantry problem.

1. by introducing platoons with dirt cheap 4/4 infantry. so the basic infantry will see more play

and

2. by introducing flanking fire, which will allow swarms of cheaper infantry to surround the more expensive 5/5 units and take them out.

It's not as though they are totally ignoring the issue.

Agreed on count 2. As for 1, it doesn't solve much. I guess you'd have to shoot at a Ranger with a Mauser at least ten times from short range before you might get a lucky die-roll and kill a paratrooper or Ranger.....By then they will have killed at least 7 Mausers from medium Range.....

[Zeus[BTY]]

I can't find the topic where this news was posted, so forgive me if this was mentioned already... but why the hell are we getting RULES as an "printed expansion" after pretty much everybody here has been clamoring for MAPS for the last one and a half year...?!?

[Tom_Weasle]

Personally, I couldnt care less if they want to charge $20 for it as long as they get it RIGHT. I wouldn't mind having a professionally printed hard copy and I'd like to think that they would include something like the Platoon cards in that pack for that price.

But I doubt I will actually spring money for something that doesn't address the key problems. If I'm still going to have to play with a handful of House Rules in order to make the game 'work', then I dont see spending money for rules that are still reliant on those House Rules.

I'm with you. But I hope these rules are cool.

[bresh]

If its has to be out 25/5 i think they all bussy playtesting and playtesting..... atm.

If just ruleset, maps and platooncards it would have to be a ton maps for that price.

Regards
Bresh

[Richter von Manthofen]

20$ for advanced rules - hell if they include Platoon Cards a few maps (terrain hexes) that is well worth the price IMHO. (equals about 2 boosters)

But I hope the advanced rules are MORE than they presented us two weeks ago...

We might not be happy with all advanced rules, but they will probably improve the game (and maybe I will be able to trade away the tons of commanders I have :D)

[thommieh]

I think for $20 we´ll get something like this:

Chapter 1: Basic rules corrected with all the errata thus far
Chapter 2: (new) Advanced rules
Chapter 3: Platoon overview
Chapter 4: 3 (consectuive (spelled right?))Scenario´s
+maps

There you have the final A&AM handbook, end of (product) line. Just like Boersma said: this might just be one of the two anounced expansions.

Allthough this would be to bad news in terms of new units becoming available (only one actual booster), I do like my idea of the book layout :-)

[Grenzewolf]

I think for $20 we´ll get something like this:

Chapter 1: Basic rules corrected with all the errata thus far
Chapter 2: (new) Advanced rules
Chapter 3: Platoon overview
Chapter 4: 3 (consectuive (spelled right?))Scenario´s
+maps

There you have the final A&AM handbook, end of (product) line. Just like Boersma said: this might just be one of the two anounced expansions.

Allthough this would be to bad news in terms of new units becoming available (only one actual booster), I do like my idea of the book layout :-)

Your probably pretty close. StarWars Mini's has something like that for each set.

[Cruizin2000]

I think for $20 we´ll get something like this:

Chapter 1: Basic rules corrected with all the errata thus far
Chapter 2: (new) Advanced rules
Chapter 3: Platoon overview
Chapter 4: 3 (consectuive (spelled right?))Scenario´s
+maps

There you have the final A&AM handbook, end of (product) line. Just like Boersma said: this might just be one of the two anounced expansions.

Allthough this would be to bad news in terms of new units becoming available (only one actual booster), I do like my idea of the book layout :-)

I hope it will be something like this. Is this new rule book really considered an expansion as in "new set"? I hope not.

C2000

[Autarch]

Again, I don't see why you think that 1 tank should be able to totally destroy an entire squad of troops during the combat phase which is supposed to represent 30 seconds of real-time combat.



I wouldn't characterize it as destroying an entire squad in 30 seconds. Soldiers have no damage level. When removed from the game, I think of the unit as having enough of it's men killed/injured or driven off that it ceases to function as a unit.

[shadowhooch]

I hope it will be something like this. Is this new rule book really considered an expansion as in "new set"? I hope not.

C2000

Oooohh. Rumormill starts NOW! But you may be on to something there. I don't see them releasing a new set if they are apparently scrambling just to get this in order (and looks like they are behind schedule since we never got anything from them last week as they had mentioned we would).

But again...just speculative rumors.:D (And kind of disturbing ones at that).

[Khayman7]

Oooohh. Rumormill starts NOW! But you may be on to something there. I don't see them releasing a new set if they are apparently scrambling just to get this in order (and looks like they are behind schedule since we never got anything from them last week as they had mentioned we would).

But again...just speculative rumors.:D (And kind of disturbing ones at that).

Great, why did you go this route? Now all the "chicken littles" are going to be coming out again.

[Cruizin2000]

Maybe we'll get lucky and that book will also contain a new Hellcat, Spitfire, and 4 U.S. 3" AT guns. I'd buy two and be happy as Hell.

C2000

[Yankee_Dynasty]

Maybe we'll get lucky and that book will also contain a new Hellcat, Spitfire, and 4 U.S. 3" AT guns. I'd buy two and be happy as Hell.

C2000

Thats the only way ill buy any new units or a new rule book if they are together and cheap. I hate buying new things to replace my old.

[fifleche]

I don't know. The whole argument seems to revolve around the belief that 2 or 3 tanks should be able to take out 100 or more infantry in under 7 minutes. I'm not a military expert, but ... arg whatever. I'm tired. Hopefully you guys can sort of see my point.Rounds are supposed to be 1 minute. Now, let me illustrate:

Screaming Eagles paratrooper: 5/5 Hard Charger

Brummbar: german assault vehicle, lobs 150mm shell, 9 dices.

Since, on 9 dices, you get 50% of scoring ONE hit, you need two Brummbars to score a single hit, on average. BUT, that single hit is not enough, because of "hard charger", so you need FOUR brummbars firing at a single squad to have reasonable odds of eliminating it.

4 brummbars firing 150mm shells in an open field for a whole minute to score ONE kill. Less than 4 brummbars, and you have to get lucky to kill ANY para during the 7-minutes game.

See? :o

[Mons]

as mentioned in another thread...the advanced rules book will be for sale in shops as of May 25th...what does that mean?...


It means that the new maps have already been sent to the cartographer and we still have several weeks to work on these rules.

[fifleche]

New maps! :eek:

YAY!

[Zeus[BTY]]

Thanks for clearing that up Mons.

But what I think everybody here really wants to know is: does this expert rules/map combo come IN ADDITION TO one of the two expected sets of minis, or does it REPLACE it, meaning we'll have to wait until november or so for new minis (if then)?

[Arontje]

It means that the new maps have already been sent to the cartographer and we still have several weeks to work on these rules.

:confused: ...

:eek: New maps....

New maps... for sale :D

Great news.

[boersma8]

;235659']Thanks for clearing that up Mons.

But what I think everybody here really wants to know is: does this expert rules/map combo come IN ADDITION TO one of the two expected sets of minis, or does it REPLACE it, meaning we'll have to wait until november or so for new minis (if then)?

I second that!

[OfwSteiner]

Here's a thought - New starter set price of $14.99 (rules, maps, 18 minis and their cards) - this new release will have rules and maps (and what else?) for $20.00. Uncle Joe thinks we'll get platoon cards, and so do I! However, I am wondering if it means (random) platoons AND their cards, so one will have to buy and buy to get all the P.C.s. DON'T FORGET, THIS IS RANDOM COLLECT - ABLE GAME! If so, they have listened! Now we will get the Infantry that everyone needed more of - though most have enough by now, after spending how much?! We'll still be putting plenty in bags just so the ones who want them can get the P.C.s! Maybe it'll be just what I was alluding to in the thread (I put in the wrong place) which no one would respond to except for Viking Warrior, who again wanted to put forth his belief (hope) that they may give free stickers to officially correct the unit costs issues. I expect either no response or Flak on this - but hey, don't forget that they're in business to make money. And finally, when WotC lowered prices (to keep them in line with future releases) it was never said in black and white that the upcoming ones were going to be $9.99 - but everyone seemed so happy to jump to the conclusion! Getting the rules and maps is OK, but how many people will really buy a lot of these just to get the platoon cards when they already have way too many officers, machine guns (that exist), bren gunners and BAR gunners, and how many more Japanese mortars etc.? All I can say is that I'm afraid that this will be the case, although I truly hope I'm wrong!

[Major Adler]

so Mons...looks like they will not be properly playtested then...will they...

[Autarch]

I'm starting to think these Expert rules will fit nicely on the back of a checklist insert that you find in the booster. Since Mons said the new maps have been sent off to the cartographer's, I bet that's going to be the main attraction of the May release.

[bresh]

Well, Wotc pricing in Europe is aprox 80%-100% above prices in US.
So i think it would be a joke for us eu-citizen if someone belives we would pay 35$+ for an expert ruleset.

As for importing from USA, you add taxes+high shipping making the prices around 30$ again which then adds vat custom. Making the prices around 40$+.

Personnaly i think even 20$ is to high unless some fixes where made for bad stat-cards, and so do all danish players i talked with. And this could make the interest in the game drop atleast around here, alot of "lost" potential buyers.

Regards
Bresh

[Colonel_Coo]

Well, Wotc pricing in Europe is aprox 80%-100% above prices in US.
So i think it would be a joke for us eu-citizen if someone belives we would pay 35$+ for an expert ruleset.

As for importing from USA, you add taxes+high shipping making the prices around 30$ again which then adds vat custom. Making the prices around 40$+.

Personnaly i think even 20$ is to high unless some fixes where made for bad stat-cards, and so do all danish players i talked with. And this could make the interest in the game drop atleast around here, alot of "lost" potential buyers.

Regards
Bresh
Ah yes, but you guys have free health care.

[Lotus]

Ah yes, but you guys have free health care.

Hey Coo, stop making me laugh. It's too early in the morning. :D

[thommieh]

Ah yes, but you guys have free health care.

Free? Not over here.. it might be comparetivly cheap, but for 100 bucks a month I can buy a lot of boosters...

[Colonel_Coo]

Free? Not over here.. it might be comparetivly cheap, but for 100 bucks a month I can buy a lot of boosters...

Sorry for the quip. It was meant in humor. Different systems, different benefits and detracters

[Predator666]

Can I have a link or something to were this 20 dollar May 25th expansion was set? And if it is 20 dollars they would have to include a good amount of stuff to make it worth it.

[bresh]

Ah yes, but you guys have free health care.

Wow, a smart one ?
Dont forget we are the happiest ppl in the world, and pay the highest taxes to ?

Regards
Bresh

[Colonel_Coo]

Wow, a smart one ?
Dont forget we are the happiest ppl in the world, and pay the highest taxes to ?

Regards
Bresh

I am glad you are very happy while paying your taxes. My Uncle Johnny always says, "give me the money, I'll pay the tax". :)

I hope you enjoyed my little poke. It was meant in humor, not as an insult.