Anyone had any luck with PT boats?

[IXJac]

I ask because they haven't done anything for us. Usually they end up hiding on islands, and then dart out only to get strafed or shot before they can use torpedoes. I think the sum kill of all my PT boats is an Italian MTB for my Americans, and a Liberty ship for my Italians, for a good dozen-plus lost in various engagements.

So anyone found any good tactics for them?

[Uncle_Joe]

Nope, no luck here either. They just die too easily to get the torpedoes off. Again, if SHIPS (including Patrol Boats) fired torpedoes in the Surface Fire Phase then they might be of some use. But as is, I can see why you'd play one over another aircraft (unless already at basing limits or something).

[Autarch]

I had some luck with PT boats in a battle once.

Once.

lol

I don't recall many details, other than there were three of them attacking two Scharnhorsts along with a US BB. The Germans were trying to take a center objective and the PT boats came up from a nearby island. One was lost to secondaries, but the survivors rolled mad sixes and sent both ships under.

[Slaynar]

Had a PT boat Finish off the Richilu last night. They are good for that kinda thing....

[Joisey]

Haven't played with islands much. My PT boats are still in the plastic baggies. Never even considered them for a build.

[IXJac]

Hmm, so it's not just me. OK, house ruling time. ;)

But rather than raising the save on PTs to frustrating levels, how about this rule:

Torpedo Run
The PT boat still moves three sectors total, but it moves two sectors in the Sea Movement Phase, and then may move it's third sector in the Torpedo Attack Phase. This simulates the PT boat darting out from the coast before the defenders can react to it.

I'm gonna try this one out and see how it works. If it's good we'll add it to our light ship rules.

[Rokossovsky]

Actually, we didn't have much luck with PTs historically, against major ships. I think the endgame bag was a light cruiser -- Abukuma at Surigao? -- and a destroyer or two.

What the PTs were invaluable for was small level warfare work -- against coastal barge/supply traffic, making raids, etc. The Japanese had nothing to compete.

One did barely miss torpedoing one of our cruisers off Guadalcanal. (I wonder what happened to its captain.)

By contrast, the German Schnellbooten -- "fast boats" -- E/S-boats -- could be deadly: Look at our hushed-up massive loss of lives/GIs during a pre-D-Day landing exercise at Slapton Sands. But they were bigger, and their torpedoes more carefully protected aboard and more precisely launched.

I was surprised the S-boats weren't in the initial WAS issue, while the (also effective) Italian MAS MTBs were, but I suppose there had to be a cutoff somewhere.

[IXJac]

Actually, we didn't have much luck with PTs historically, against major ships.

Yeah, but then there's game balance. No point taking a 6-7 point unit in a game about warship combat unless it does something.

And I expect we'll see S-boats eventually. I hope they don't succumb to nationalism and have there be uber-PT boats (PT 109!!!) superior to S-boats - S-boats were far and away the best torpedo craft of WWII.

[Andras]

For reference-
Schnellboots (http://www.prinzeugen.com/SBOATIND.htm)

[dictator_wanna_be]

I hear they make good poker chips ;)

[Reemule]

The trick is to get them there in numbers the opponent can't deal with. 3 of them going in on a target work well for me. and they are best going after cruisers, not bb's.

[Uncle_Joe]

Yes, you can mob a single ship or so with a large number of PT boats. But there are much easier ways to deliver your torpedoes. Even Carriers can kill off the PT boats before they can fire their torpedoes so you are looking at needing 3 or 4 just to launch maybe up to a half a dozen torpedoes once. On average, you'll succeed in doing about 2 points of damage with that (only 1 to anything with Torpedo Defense).

I just cant imagine too many circumstances where these things make sense at the moment. Even using islands to hide and time the attacks is problematic since you will still be vulnerable on the turn that you leave the island to attack. Almost anything worth mobbing with PT boats is likely going to have secondary and maybe even tertiary guns. That means 2-3 PTs going splat before the torpedo phase comes around.

If you have hot dice and can make your Evasion rolls, you might do some damage but I think subs and even torpedo bombers are far more efficient ways to deliver the same weapons.

[Hoomanator7]

After seeing little success and little use of PT boats/MTB boats in early games of WaS, we employed (and have refined) some house rules that have helped greatly in the balance of piece selection and play of this game. They are as follows:

 Units with the Extended Range SA cannot use their Main Guns to attack PT Boats or Motor Torpedo Boats – but must only use their secondary and tertiary guns on these targets. This reflects the fact that these large caliber guns with their generally slow rate of fire are ineffective at long range against small targets.

 Units with the Extended Range SA cannot use their Main Guns to attack Destroyers at ranges greater than three sea sectors. Destroyers of the Second World War were too small and too fast to be engaged at this range (25,000 yards or beyond).

 Submarines that have been attacked by ASW during the Surface Attack Phase roll 1 less die when attacking during the Torpedo Phase of the same turn, if that attack specifically resulted in two successes (a near miss). This simulates the fact that submarines that were in the process of being hunted had great difficulty in acquiring targets. Coastal submarines such as the Ambra type submarines ignore this effect.

 Destroyers that are attacked by torpedoes may make an Evasive Maneuver roll. To make an Evasive Maneuver roll, roll a die. At a range of 2 sea sectors or greater a roll of 4, 5 or 6, indicates a successful evasion - the attack misses the target regardless of many successes the attacker rolls. At a range of 1 sea sector the destroyer must roll a 5 or 6 to evade the torpedo. Torpedo attacks made in the same sea sector require that the destroyer rolls a 6 for a successful evasion.

 Destroyers who are escorting friendly ships in the same sector can declare that they are using Flak Support before rolling air defense. If declared, they may re-roll any 1’s that result from their first die roll attempt in the Anti Air Phase. This simulates their combined fire during air defense. However, in doing this they may not make any surface attacks, ASW attacks, or generate a smoke screen during the same turn.

 Units in island sectors receive a concealment roll when attacked by aircraft. To make a concealment roll, roll a die. On a 5 or 6, the attack misses the target regardless of many successes the attacker rolls.

 Ships with “PT Boats” or “Motor Torpedo Boats” in their title cannot be attacked by torpedoes.

 Ships with “PT Boats” or “Motor Torpedo Boats” in their title have the option of using their entire movement in the Sea Movement Phase or spreading their movement across the Sea Movement, Air Defense and Torpedo Attack phases of the game – moving one space at the beginning of their player’s turn in each of these three phases.

 All sea sectors adjacent to land terrain are considered island sectors for rules purposes.

 Units with the Sub Hunter SA can re-roll one die of choice when attacking submarines.

 Units with the No Sea Control SA cannot take the objective. However, when in or adjacent to sectors containing objectives, they can prevent enemy units from claiming the objective.

 Units in island sectors have their line of sight blocked – and therefore can’t attack or be attacked by units in other sea sectors.

 Double-engine (Catalina, Betty and Kondor) planes cannot be based on carriers.

 Crippled flag ships do not receive their initiative bonus.

 A crippled ship with speed 2 and the Slow 1 / 2 special ability has its speed reduced to 0 for the turn when the unit rolls a 1 (or 2) at the beginning of the Movement Phase.

 Planes based on aircraft carriers must have their cards stacked under the carrier’s stat card.

 During the Air Mission phase, planes remaining on land-bases cannot be placed, after the player forfeits placement once during the alternating placement of aircraft.

Some of these modified rules have come from rules clarifications at WotC...others from the team of players here. Our object was to keep as many of the game mechanics in play as possible...however, we wanted to enhance the value and playability of destroyers and MTB/PT boats without distorting historical accuracy.

As a result I think you will find that both destroyers and MTB/PT boats can make a contribution to your games with these modifications in place.

Help yourself...

[Wasp]

I had a little success with a PT boat in a 200 pt game. I was on a map that included an island next to an objective counter. I ran the PT into the island and contested the objective while the rest of my forces were pummeled by the Schornhorst-Graff Spee-Bismark and supporting Kolns, Karl Glasters and Uboats. The only thing that save the PT is with that many ships he didn't run any air support to punish the PTs. The only reason I ran the PT was because I had to scrounge all my allies to get 200 pts. Great to be a new player. :)


Wasp

[Khayman7]

Yeah, but then there's game balance. No point taking a 6-7 point unit in a game about warship combat unless it does something.

And I expect we'll see S-boats eventually. I hope they don't succumb to nationalism and have there be uber-PT boats (PT 109!!!) superior to S-boats - S-boats were far and away the best torpedo craft of WWII.

The only time they should be taken is in a scenario, or if you don't have enough units and need to fill in some points because its better to have a chance, than go in minus x amount of points (even if you need a rabbits foot with a 4 leaf clover and all the planets in perfect alignment for it to do something).

I love Uncle Joe's idea that torpedoes should be done in the surface attack phase too, but the only problem I can see with that is then people will say that the PTs are undercosted because they move fast at 3, there is no defensive fire, and they just run into the middle of your ships and fire away. I can see the threads now "My Yamato was sunk by a horde of PT boats when the best they ever did 1 time historically was sink a cruiser. This is unbalanced and should be changed or recosted." I see it being as a catch-22.


The last point there I fully agree with. As I understand it S-boats were more like the size of destroyer escorts than the little torpedo boats. I could be mistaken though.

[Joisey]

After seeing little success and little use of PT boats/MTB boats in early games of WaS, we employed (and have refined) some house rules that have helped greatly in the balance of piece selection and play of this game. They are as follows:

 Units with the Extended Range SA cannot use their Main Guns to attack PT Boats or Motor Torpedo Boats – but must only use their secondary and tertiary guns on these targets. This reflects the fact that these large caliber guns with their generally slow rate of fire are ineffective at long range against small targets.

 Units with the Extended Range SA cannot use their Main Guns to attack Destroyers at ranges greater than three sea sectors. Destroyers of the Second World War were too small and too fast to be engaged at this range (25,000 yards or beyond).

 Submarines that have been attacked by ASW during the Surface Attack Phase roll 1 less die when attacking during the Torpedo Phase of the same turn, if that attack specifically resulted in two successes (a near miss). This simulates the fact that submarines that were in the process of being hunted had great difficulty in acquiring targets. Coastal submarines such as the Ambra type submarines ignore this effect.

 Destroyers that are attacked by torpedoes may make an Evasive Maneuver roll. To make an Evasive Maneuver roll, roll a die. At a range of 2 sea sectors or greater a roll of 4, 5 or 6, indicates a successful evasion - the attack misses the target regardless of many successes the attacker rolls. At a range of 1 sea sector the destroyer must roll a 5 or 6 to evade the torpedo. Torpedo attacks made in the same sea sector require that the destroyer rolls a 6 for a successful evasion.

 Destroyers who are escorting friendly ships in the same sector can declare that they are using Flak Support before rolling air defense. If declared, they may re-roll any 1’s that result from their first die roll attempt in the Anti Air Phase. This simulates their combined fire during air defense. However, in doing this they may not make any surface attacks, ASW attacks, or generate a smoke screen during the same turn.

 Units in island sectors receive a concealment roll when attacked by aircraft. To make a concealment roll, roll a die. On a 5 or 6, the attack misses the target regardless of many successes the attacker rolls.

 Ships with “PT Boats” or “Motor Torpedo Boats” in their title cannot be attacked by torpedoes.

 Ships with “PT Boats” or “Motor Torpedo Boats” in their title have the option of using their entire movement in the Sea Movement Phase or spreading their movement across the Sea Movement, Air Defense and Torpedo Attack phases of the game – moving one space at the beginning of their player’s turn in each of these three phases.

 All sea sectors adjacent to land terrain are considered island sectors for rules purposes.

 Units with the Sub Hunter SA can re-roll one die of choice when attacking submarines.

 Units with the No Sea Control SA cannot take the objective. However, when in or adjacent to sectors containing objectives, they can prevent enemy units from claiming the objective.

 Units in island sectors have their line of sight blocked – and therefore can’t attack or be attacked by units in other sea sectors.

 Double-engine (Catalina, Betty and Kondor) planes cannot be based on carriers.

 Crippled flag ships do not receive their initiative bonus.

 A crippled ship with speed 2 and the Slow 1 / 2 special ability has its speed reduced to 0 for the turn when the unit rolls a 1 (or 2) at the beginning of the Movement Phase.

 Planes based on aircraft carriers must have their cards stacked under the carrier’s stat card.

 During the Air Mission phase, planes remaining on land-bases cannot be placed, after the player forfeits placement once during the alternating placement of aircraft.

Some of these modified rules have come from rules clarifications at WotC...others from the team of players here. Our object was to keep as many of the game mechanics in play as possible...however, we wanted to enhance the value and playability of destroyers and MTB/PT boats without distorting historical accuracy.

As a result I think you will find that both destroyers and MTB/PT boats can make a contribution to your games with these modifications in place.

Help yourself...

Nice set of rules.

[Uncle_Joe]

I love Uncle Joe's idea that torpedoes should be done in the surface attack phase too, but the only problem I can see with that is then people will say that the PTs are undercosted because they move fast at 3, there is no defensive fire, and they just run into the middle of your ships and fire away. I can see the threads now "My Yamato was sunk by a horde of PT boats when the best they ever did 1 time historically was sink a cruiser. This is unbalanced and should be changed or recosted." I see it being as a catch-22.

Yeah, I thought about that and it is possible that it might be too much but I really dont think so. Ideally, it would encourage people to play things like DDs to actually screen their capital ships from opposing torpedo boats (kinda like they were intended to do.... ;) ). I mean at the moment, I dont think I've even seen a torpedo attack from a surface ship in over a dozen games and numerous solo play-tests. Every ship that carries them that has managed to close through the airstrike and extended range shots has died before the torpedo phase.

But the basic hope would be that one large capital ship couldnt generate enough shots to kill off a swarm of smaller ships before they can kill it with torpedoes. Generally each of the 'swarm' would get 1 torpedo strike off even with the simultaneous attack phase (assuming they survived air strikes etc to get there in the first place!). Something like Yamato would take 6 torpedo hits to sink. Thats about 30-36 torpedo shots on average to put her down. It would take quite the mob of torpedo boats indeed to generate that many shots even with getting to fire simultaneously. :eek:

What I'm looking for is a simple to implement rule that might encourage people to play something other than BBs/Subs with a little air support. Sure, we can make gentlemen's agreements to the contrary but ideally the game system should encourage a little more variety in competitive builds than what seem to be emerging now.

[Gladewind]

 All sea sectors adjacent to land terrain are considered island sectors for rules purposes.

 Double-engine (Catalina, Betty and Kondor) planes cannot be based on carriers.


I'm a little confused about those two. Why are you making islands so large by extending their range effectively 6 more sectors? Or does this refer to the map6?

I also don't understand the twin-engine aircraft rule... pg31 says only Fighters, Dive Bombers, and Torpedo Bombers may base on carriers. If I'm not mistaken your examples are all Patrol Bombers which can't land on carriers anyway, right?

[Hoomanator7]

I'm a little confused about those two. Why are you making islands so large by extending their range effectively 6 more sectors? Or does this refer to the map6?

I also don't understand the twin-engine aircraft rule... pg31 says only Fighters, Dive Bombers, and Torpedo Bombers may base on carriers. If I'm not mistaken your examples are all Patrol Bombers which can't land on carriers anyway, right?

Good points for clarification...thank you!

The the first addendum references the land terrain border on map 6. So the effects on islands themselves are not extended into the 6 adjacent sea sectors. I will amend the rule to reflect that.

You are right in the second regard. I restated this because there was a debate among the group I play WaS with as to whether Patrol Bombers could base on aircraft carriers due to the fact that their cards did not mention this restriction - as they did with the Stuka. I realize that this was because their classification was different...but for some others it was not quite so apparent...so I broke this out specifically in our house rules.

[Gladewind]

...but for some others it was not quite so apparent...so I broke this out specifically in our house rules.

I don't know, I thought;

You can't base or rearm a patrol bomber on a carrier.
...was clear enough. Maybe just cite the rulebook page on your sheet? This way if a carrier based 2-engine plane comes along in the future or someone tries to argue, "But the Kondor is FOUR engines, not two! It isn't excluded in the rule!" the reference is closer at hand.

[zaarin7]

The only twin engine carrier bassed prop planes I can recall at the moment were all post war developments, F7F and Gannet.

[Krusty Burger]

Had some luck with the Italian Motor Torpedo Boats today. Three of them managed to sink an Ajax and they finished off both a Hood and a Rodney.

[Bigblue2]

Apparently they were in service during the war. I don't know if any were in any combat.

Grumman F7F Tigercat

(Variants/Other Names: See History below)

Grumman F7F Tigercat
(Photo source unknown. Please contact us if you deserve credit.)

History: In early 1941, Grumman began design-work on a new twin-engine fighter for the War Department, for use on a planned larger Midway-class aircraft carrier. On June 30, 1941, Grumman was awarded a contract to build two prototypes, the first of which flew in December 1943. The XF7F-1 Tigercat was unusual for a fighter, with its shoulder-mounted wings, twin underwing-mounted engines, all-metal construction and tricycle landing gear.

Before the prototype even flew for the first time, Grumman was contracted to build 500 of them for the US Marine Corps, to be used as close-support aircraft for the massive landing operations then underway in the Pacific. Delivery began in April 1944. The first 34 F7F-1s were similar to the prototypes, then 30 two-seat night-fighter variants (called F7F-2Ns) were produced. Next, 189 single-seat models called F7F-3s were built which featured slightly more powerful R-2800 engines, slightly larger vertical stabilizers, and a 7% increase in fuel capacity.

Much of the original order for Tigercats was cancelled after VJ-Day, and they never saw operational service in WWII. Less than 100 Tigercats were built after the war as night-fighters (F7F-3N and F7F-4N), electronic reconnaissance (F7F-3E) and photo-reconnaissance (F7F-3P) platforms, but higher-performance jet-powered airplanes soon replaced the Tigercat in the US Marine Corps. During the 1960s and 1970s, a few were gradually sold as surplus and converted to fire bombers or aerial photography ships.

Nicknames: T-Cat

Specifications (F7F-3):
Engines: Two 2,100hp Pratt & Whitney R-2800-34W Double Wasp 18-cylinder radial piston engines
Weight: Empty 16,270 lbs., Max Takeoff 25,720 lbs.
Wing Span: 51ft. 6in.
Length: 45ft. 4.5in.
Height: 16ft. 7in.
Performance:
Maximum Speed at 22,200 ft: 435 mph
Cruising Speed at 5,000 ft: 222 mph
Initial Climb Rate: 4,500 feet per minute
Ceiling: 40,700 ft.
Range: 1,200 miles
Armament:
Four 20mm (0.79-inch) cannon in wing roots
Four 12.7mm (0.5-inch) machine guns in nose
One torpedo under fuselage
2,000 lbs. of bombs (1,000 lbs. under each wing)

Number Built: 364

Number Still Airworthy: 6

[Volorkey]

Had some luck with the Italian Motor Torpedo Boats today. Three of them managed to sink an Ajax and they finished off both a Hood and a Rodney.

That's quite a score there. Bravo!

I find them usefull in larger engagements when they wait around islands for a while until the right moment arises. I have them jump out, at a point when there are much larger and more dangerous targets in the area. With a few lucky evade rolls and more important targets for the enemy to shoot at, some of them get through.

Am I the only one who thinks it's stupid you can sink them with a torpedo? I mean come on I think the only way a torpedo could hit a PT boat is if it was trying to get hit.

[weav]

My biggest problem is the evade special rule. It only allows the PT Boat/MTB a save against attacks from ships, not planes. Why? I would like to see that rule apply to damage from ships or planes (maybe not torps, I haven't thought about it enough).

[Krusty Burger]

That's quite a score there. Bravo!

I find them usefull in larger engagements when they wait around islands for a while until the right moment arises. I have them jump out, at a point when there are much larger and more dangerous targets in the area. With a few lucky evade rolls and more important targets for the enemy to shoot at, some of them get through.

Am I the only one who thinks it's stupid you can sink them with a torpedo? I mean come on I think the only way a torpedo could hit a PT boat is if it was trying to get hit.


That's exactly what happened. There were more dangerous targets for my opponent to shoot at, so the MTB's kinda snuck up on him. I kinda credit the victory to the Torp Boats actually. :)

[Json8tr]

We have instituted a house rules that PT boats are immune to torpedo attacks so they can go after subs. The PT's have been usless and killed easily everytime used. Im toying with trying to use them in conjunction with friendly subs to attack BB's and fill the water with torpedoes. Of course its less of a suicide mission if the ship is hurt already.

[Hellcat]

A pair of MTBs of mine finished off a heavy cruiser of some kind the other day. I don't remember which one it was but I do remember it still had 2 hull points after a dust up with light cruiser of mine at close range. He was so preoccupied with finishing off my CL that he completely missed them waiting in a cove on a nearby island. (we play surface torps during gunnery phase) I moved second and they dashed in. He blew one to bits but not before both scored a hit. (I'm pretty lucky with torps which is why I occasionally play MTBs) My CL ended up surviving the encounter because of the MTBs sudden appearance and went on to sink a DD escort for me before going under from aircraft. The remaining MTB died when it was caught in the open on its next attack by a wildcat.

[Visio]

No luck at all. I hardly ever encouter them during games and never play them myself. I am interested in tips from other players who have sound tactics for Torpedo boats. Just couldn't come up with it myself.

[gairsy]

Someone might correct me on this, but I think historically MTB's used to go at each other with Depth charges, as well as guns of course.