Best 100 point Fleet with no Battleships?

[Cpt. John Miller]

I'm playtesting without battleships to have fun with the cruisers and carriers and see what these babies can do when the monsters are not around.
I'm gonna start with these mirror builds: A command carrier with one of each plane and some cruisers.
USA
25 Enterprise
18 Baltimore
14 Salt Lake City
13 Boise
13 Dauntless
09 Devastator
07 Wildcat
99 total

Japan
27 Akagi
23 Tone
19 Jintsu
13 Kate
10 Val
06 Zeke
98 total

I know there are better builds than these without Battleships but I am trying keep it simple to start. I imagine the germans would be pretty good with a couple Graf Spees, Kolns, kondors and subs but, that's another day.
Whutcha think?

[IXJac]

I've found that it's always best to have more planes than you have deck space. That way losses don't cut into fighting ability too much. For the Japanese, at 100 points, with no battleships I'd leave the Kates at home, and max out on Vals. More like this:

1 x Shokaku (20 points)
2 x Zero (12 points)
3 x Val (30 points)
1 x Yukikaze (12 points)
2 x I-19 (26 points)

100 points

You now can use the Yukikaze to race in and take an objective to deny the enemy an objective victory (cover his run in with the subs and bombers), and then fall back and take the enemy apart with continual airstrikes.

A Tone is unnecessary in this case. With the +2 from the Shokaku, it's additional +1 is overkill against destroyers and cruisers. If you want to buff up your objective seizing force you could drop an I-19 and a Val for it, however that's sacrificing a little overall combat power.

[Kawalsky]

That sounds good. I´ll do it in my next combat.

[Bigblue2]

You now can use the Yukikaze to race in and take an objective to deny the enemy an objective victory (cover his run in with the subs and bombers), and then fall back and take the enemy apart with continual airstrikes.

I highly doubt the Yukikaze could make it to, ant take an objective. A fighter could have a decent chance of sinking it first. Also the carrier will be vulnerable to attack herself.

Cpt. John Miller's USA build is pretty good, though you may want to trade in the Boise for an Atlanta to really beef up the antiair defense of the Enterprise. This frees up the wildcat to attack weak destroyers or escort the attack aircraft

25 Enterprise
18 Baltimore
14 Salt Lake City
13 Boise
13 Dauntless
09 Devastator
07 Wildcat
99 total

[IXJac]

If the enemy has too much air support then you can move up with the Shokaku as well.

But unless you're facing another carrier heavy force most people just have one or two land based fighters. So there's a good chance any fighter the enemy has will be desperately fending off Vals, and two Zeros have a decent chance of aborting the enemy if you really need to cover the Destroyer.

I've never played with this build myself, but I've used an Allied build that uses the same concept with some success.

1 x Ark Royal (22 points)
1 x Le Terrible (9 points)
5 x Swordfish (50 points)
1 x Sea Hurricane (5 points)
1 x Wildcat (7 points)
1 x Catalina (7 points)

100 Points

[Joisey]

I'm playtesting without battleships to have fun with the cruisers and carriers and see what these babies can do when the monsters are not around.
I'm gonna start with these mirror builds: A command carrier with one of each plane and some cruisers.
USA
25 Enterprise
18 Baltimore
14 Salt Lake City
13 Boise
13 Dauntless
09 Devastator
07 Wildcat
99 total

Japan
27 Akagi
23 Tone
19 Jintsu
13 Kate
10 Val
06 Zeke
98 total

I know there are better builds than these without Battleships but I am trying keep it simple to start. I imagine the germans would be pretty good with a couple Graf Spees, Kolns, kondors and subs but, that's another day.
Whutcha think?

Both these builds are "Sub Bait", with a very minimal ASW capability consisting of a single torpedo bomber. The subs will sink your surface ships long before you get enough sixes at one roll of 2 dice once a turn.

A more balanced build would be:

3 x Barb 36 points
1 x Baltimore 18 points
1 x Atlanta 12 points
2 x Wildcat 14 points
2 x Catalina 14 points
1 x Sea Hurricane 5 points

Total: 99 points. Assuming you don't have to take on a BB, the Baltimore is probably the best cruiser in the game, having Extended Range 4. Handled right, it can beat any other cruiser. The Atlanta, plus the fighters, will make it air-proof. The subs and the Catalinas provide alot of ASW at this point range. And in case you draw a pair of Battlecruisers, the subs even the score for the Baltimore.

[Cpt. John Miller]

Both these builds are "Sub Bait"

I know, that's why I started with mirroring builds minus subs, destroyers and BBs.

After a game with the above fleets I have to say that the US are much more cost effective at this price level. Like you said, they have the best cruiser in the game and it comes cheap. Their planes are superior to the japanese versions and are not much more expensive if at all. I think that the Japanese don't really come alive until like 150-200 points when they can better employ the swarm effect.

[Uncle_Joe]

The Japanese are fine at 100 points IMO. They have the best sub for cost (IMO) and they have the best torpedo bomber. And without the BBs around, they might actually get to USE their Long Lance ability. All it takes is one hit by them and any cruiser in the game is going down.

That torpedo advantage also gives them the edge even when BBs are present if you commit to it. One single hit on the BBs removes their Extended Range and that removes the only real advantage that the Iowa has over the Yamato. And once BBs are on the table, cruisers arent worth fielding regardless IMO.

The place where the Japanese (and Axis in general) really come up short is ASW. Their aircraft are lousy at it and their ships arent much better. The Japanese also pay a lot for their DDs making them even worse as dedicated sub hunters.

But in general the Axis edge in subs is FAR better than the Allied advantage in cruisers and dive bombers since the latter two are useless against the BBs which tend to be the deciding factor even in larger battles IME.

[Cpt. John Miller]

Updated:
Imperial Japanese Navy
20 Shokaku
23 Tone
26 I-19 x2
20 Val x2
12 Zeke x2
101 total

United States Navy
25 Enterprise
18 Baltimore
26 Dauntless x2
12 Atlanta
07 Wildcat
07 Catalina
06 S.B.Roberts
101 total

Kriegsmarine
21 Graf Spee
33 U-510 x3
18 Kondor x3
22 Koln x2
08 Karl Galster
102 total

[Gladewind]

Imperial Japanese Navy
101 total
United States Navy
101 total
Kriegsmarine
102 total

The only problem I have with those lists is they all spill over the point limit. Maybe we play a little more strict around here, but "extra" points aren't allowed.

[Cpt. John Miller]

The only problem I have with those lists is they all spill over the point limit. Maybe we play a little more strict around here, but "extra" points aren't allowed.

With the lack of skads of multi costed units in this game and especially really cheap units, I have found most people on the boards and "Around here" don't mind a few points over.;)

[Bigblue2]

Kriegsmarine
21 Graf Spee
33 U-510 x3
18 Kondor x3
22 Koln x2
08 Karl Galster
102 total

You might want to think about the following:
21 Grap Spee
11 Koln
08 Karl Galster
these three grouped together for max air support
44 U-510 x4
18 Condor x3

[TheFoeHammer]

Mine is similar

Graf Spee (21)
2x Karl Galsters 16)
3x U-510s (33)
5x Kondors (30)

[dracos42]

If you aren't going to have subs, then try this build

Richelieu
Canberra
Boise
2xLe Terrible

That force could have problems against an aircraft heavy force. On the other hand, an aircraft heavy force might lack the numbers of ships to contest the objectives against the Allied heavies.

And here is a 100 pt gunnery force.

Hood
Tennessee
DD Fletcher or a Wildcat.

I haven't tried that one yet. It has the potential to either win or loss in a spectacular fashion.

Mike L.

[Uncle_Joe]

I think the idea was best 100 point without Battleships. :)

[Thunderjp]

26 I-19 x 2
18 Zeke x 3
44 U510 x 4
12 Kondor x 2
100 Points

People need to stop using the word 'best' when making this posts and start using words like 'fun'. Unfortunately, in this game, Best and Most Fun are not very interchangeable at this point.

[XAos]

Japan;
5x I-19
4x Zeke
1 Val
The planes kill enemy ASW. The subs kill everything else.

German
5x U-boat
9x Nordmark.
The subs kill or drive away enemy surface ships. The Nordmarks plan to survive enemy firepower long enough to take all 3 objectives.

Aliied
USS-Princton
2xCatalina
3xWildcat
Dauntless
USS-Baltimore
HMS.Truculent
Sea Hurricane.
Thats legal by A/H's "historic" setup. If you prefer single nationality, replace Baltimore & the 2-UK units with Atlanta & 2xBarb.

[mikoyan]

My 100 point build was:
Enterprise
Wildcat, Dauntless, Devastator
Atlanta
2 Destroyers

[kaz]

Well the on line game my fleet dont have a BB and its doin ok 4 now c what happens next turn

[Endbringer]

I haven't played a ton of games yet, but my favorite Axis build (with the miniatures I have) is:

Tone
Akagi
Val
Val
Val
I-19
Stuka

I don't have a SINGLE Axis fighter yet...silly randomness.

[Mantidman]

German
5x U-boat
9x Nordmark.
The subs kill or drive away enemy surface ships. The Nordmarks plan to survive enemy firepower long enough to take all 3 objectives.

XAos,
Can the Nordmarks take the objectives? Don't they lack Sea Control? I don't have my cards and rulebook in front of me.

Mantidman

[kaz]

Akagi
Shokaku
4, Val,s
2 Zeke,s

[XAos]

XAos,
Can the Nordmarks take the objectives? Don't they lack Sea Control? I don't have my cards and rulebook in front of me.

Just checked the card on ebay, only SA's are Slow-2 & Repair.
So Nordmark is only Auxilliary which can take the objective. it's also the only one with speed 2. So it can reach the objectives (baring poor slow-2 rolls)
It's the 5 point cost combined with hull-4 which makes these the most survivable ships in the game (for their cost)

[Count_Ciano]

Just checked the card on ebay, only SA's are Slow-2 & Repair.
So Nordmark is only Auxilliary which can take the objective. it's also the only one with speed 2. So it can reach the objectives (baring poor slow-2 rolls)
It's the 5 point cost combined with hull-4 which makes these the most survivable ships in the game (for their cost)

Since I actually have the mini and card...confirmed!:cool:

[Gladewind]

it's also the only one with speed 2.
It's the 5 point cost combined with hull-4 which makes these the most survivable ships in the game (for their cost)
The range 3 cannons on it don't hurt either.

[Joisey]

Akagi
Shokaku
4, Val,s
2 Zeke,s

<cough> sub bait <cough> ;)

[DeathsHead420]

Definatly sub bait, you have no ASW. Drop your Akagi, replace with 2nd Shokaku, and replace 2 of your vals with kates.
2x shokaku 40pts
2x zeke 12 pts
2x val 20 pts
2x kate 26 pts
---------------
98 pts

I prefer 200 pt battles my self
1x Akagi 27pts
2x shokaku 40pts
2x shoho 18pts
-------------------85pts
carrier force
5x zeke 30pts
4x val 40pts
2x kate 26pts
------------------96pts
Land based aircraft
3x betty's 18pts
-------------------18pts

TOTAL-------------199pts

with this fleet 1 of your shohos will be alone and can possibly draw the enemy in to a trap. you should have way more airplanes then your opponent unless they field a carrier task group also.

[Joisey]

Definatly sub bait, you have no ASW. Drop your Akagi, replace with 2nd Shokaku, and replace 2 of your vals with kates.
2x shokaku 40pts
2x zeke 12 pts
2x val 20 pts
2x kate 26 pts
---------------
98 pts

Now it's only "mostly" sub bait. Hee Hee :D

[MarcusAurelius]

If you're playtesting various non-BB builds, I'd suggest matching a couple cruiser/DD forces. There are plenty of historical battles you can use for reference or inspiration — including Java Sea, Savo Island, Cape Esperance and Empress Augusta Bay.

Without air cover to worry about, stacking limits become more of a strategic consideration in terms of maneuvering. Torpedoes are flying, shells are exploding — it's great fun. Here are a couple fleets you might want to try:

ABDA Combined Striking Force
HMAS Sydney 14 pts.
HMS Ajax 13 pts.
USS Boise 13 pts.
HMS Exeter 12 pts.
HMS Javelin (x3) 27 pts.
USS Fletcher (x3) 21 pts.
10 units, 100 points

Mediterranean Raiding Force
Admiral Graf Spee 21 pts.
Duca d'Aosta 12 pts.
Koln 11 pts.
Luca Tarigo (x4) 32 pts.
Z20 Karl Galster (x3) 24 pts.
10 units, 100 points

[DeathsHead420]

Now it's only "mostly" sub bait. Hee Hee :D

Mostly sub bait Haha Those kates will rip apart any subs that come close.

[Uncle_Joe]

But really, in the end, most fleets are going to be 'sub bait' if someone makes a commitment to subs. Look at some of the proposed builds above...5 and 6 subs in them with Fighters to strafe DDs that try and kill the subs. Those Fighters also neatly ward off PBYs and Torpedo Bombers in the ASW role.

Given the current rules, the only way I can really see to 'beat' that is a swarm of ships to storm the objectives and win on points or else a dedicated ASW fleet (like 14 Sam Roberts and an Atlanta). But any of those options will lose hard to a BB fleet which simply claims one objective and then massacres all of the smaller surface ships with ease (although obviously for purposes of this thread, the BB is not 'legal').

As a matter of course, the 'extreme' fleets are still most likely going to trump most attempts at a balanced build. And it doesnt get much more 'extreme' than a horde of subs IMO. ;)

[Uncle_Joe]

Mostly sub bait Haha Those kates will rip apart any subs that come close.

Do you test these theories?

Kates have 2 ASW dice. That means in order to hurt most subs you need to roll a 6 on 1 die and a 4+ on the other. That equates to less than a 10% chance of doing a hit. And that only cripples the sub (but still leaves it capable of moving its 1 space and firing at least 1 torpedo if I'm not mistaken). So really its going to take turns and turns and turns for the Kates to kill off any appreciable number of subs.

And, looking at the sub builds proposed, there are likely going to be Fighters to cover the subs as well so you have to figure in the chance that some Kates are going to be Aborted every now and then.

I'm not a fan of the all-sub builds since the games against them tend to be horridly boring but they are in fact, very difficult to 'counter' if you dont know they are coming. And 2 Kates wont change that IMO.

[DeathsHead420]

You also have to take into affect I like to roll box cars alot.

[TheJudge]

I really like the builds with a lot of ships, especially the German fleets that can have 3 to a sector plus a sub. 3 3 ship mini fleets and a lone sub can go after all 3 objectives, thats rather scary in itself.

The air fleets are great also but don't have the fright factor for the objectives. The carriers don't scare any cruisers or battleships, it is their planes so, in my opinion, an American fleet should always have at least 1-2 Wildcats if it is not a carrier based force and the IJN should always use it's carriers, they are very solid units and the planes are decent. I like carriers, subs, and lots of planes personally.

On paper, the fleets with 9+ ships look really strong and balanced despite the lack of air cover. It's what makes the Atlanta so powerful with 2 shots at planes, the smart player will steer clear of them so use 3 Atlantas!

Atlanta x3 = 36
Baltimore x1= 18
Fletcher x3= 21
USS Barb x1= 12
SBD x1 = 13 or Wildcat plus Sam Johnson= 13 or Catalina+ Sam Johnson=13

This would give 7-8 ships plus some air cover or air attack depending on your preference. ASW is excellent, mobility is excellent, anti air is retarded good, and has extended range firepower with the Baltimore, plus a sub. Hard to get more balanced than that except:

Enterprise x1 = 25
SBD x2 =26
Wildcat x2 =14
Catalina x1 = 7
Atlanta x1 = 12
This totals 84 so the other 16 points ought to be anti sub, 2 Fletchers would work as you can pair an Atlanta with a Fletcher against a heavier sub fleet and keep the other Fletcher with the carrier. This force would only be 98 points and I would prefer to use all 100 if possible but it gives strong attack with 2 SBD, a Cat for Shadowing and ASW, and 2 Wildcats for air cover and attacking the smaller ships. I would only go with 2 ships together so they stay paired and this fleet would have only 4 ships total so another option is:

Enterprise 25
SBD 13
TBD 9
Wildcat 7
Catalina 7
Atlanta x1 12
Fletcher x1 7
Baltimore 18


98 total Also 98 but also quite balanced. You could certainly go with another TBD instead of the Catalina but I don't think that is a good idea, Catalina with Shadowing is amazing and is anti sub.

I think the US is easiest to form a balanced force with because their cruisers are so good and well pointed. Japan is tougher, their cruisers are excellent but expensive at 19,23, and 24 but let's try-

Akagi- 27
Val- x2 20
Zeke- 6
Tone- 23
Bettys x4 24

100 point total

This is a scary force as sub heavy forces are in for a real battle against 5 asw planes and a carrier force will also have it's hands full. Against the 6-8 ship fleets with 2 Atlantas, the US should have an advantage but only with decent dice rolls. Bettys aren't hard to scare away.

Such a cool game, I could do this all day but I best get back to work.

[Uncle_Joe]

Atlantas are certainly unpleasant vs aircraft but they arent as tough as they first appeared IMO. Dive Bombers can choose to 'Press the Attack' and even at -1 per die its generally not too hard to score hits on the Atlanta. Score 2 hits and she's crippled, dramatically reducing the threat. Granted you are risking the aircraft, but its a risk every time you get shot at too so waiting for the turns when you might not get aborted is probably just as dangerous...its just takes longer to know. ;)

[Uncle_Joe]

You also have to take into affect I like to roll box cars alot.

Well, I think everyone would like to roll box cars a lot but basing your strategy on the luck shots that occur less than 4% of the time doesnt seem very sound to me. ;)

[Thunderjp]

Kondor>Atlanta

[DeathsHead420]

Uncle Joe:--" Have a little faith baby, Have a little faith.)* taps you in the cheek*

[Bigblue2]

Akagi- 27
Val- x2 20
Zeke- 6
Tone- 23
Bettys x4 24

100 point total

This is a scary force as sub heavy forces are in for a real battle against 5 asw planes and a carrier force will also have it's hands full. Against the 6-8 ship fleets with 2 Atlantas, the US should have an advantage but only with decent dice rolls. Bettys aren't hard to scare away.

I only see four ASW aircraft. The big problem with this force is, how do you take any objectives? Do you keep the carrier safe in the back, and send the lone Tone out to grab an objective,and get slaughtered or do you keep it with the carrier and sally forth to take an objective and risk losing your carrier? Just, too many hard choices.

[Thunderjp]

The net of 4 U510s and 2 I-19s will close in on your 2 surface ships before you can sink them all, especially with the zekes flying cover every other turn, likely destroying one or two of your 4 ASW planes on turn one (with surprise attack) and aborting 1 other. The betty's 2 ASW attack is not very likely to score a hit against 3 armor of a sub.

Meanwhile, only 2 torpedoes need to hit the akagi and 2 others on your Tone and you've lost. The 2xKondors Anti-Ship missle will also likely score a hit against your tone, meaning that one torpedo will finish it off.

I just don't see a non-dedicated ASW fleet competing with 6+ subs.

[swarbs]

I only see four ASW aircraft. The big problem with this force is, how do you take any objectives? Do you keep the carrier safe in the back, and send the lone Tone out to grab an objective,and get slaughtered or do you keep it with the carrier and sally forth to take an objective and risk losing your carrier? Just, too many hard choices.

I don't think carriers taking objectives is quite as scary as it seems. I've played carriers a bunch, I love Akagi, and usually the game is won or lost long before all objectives are taken, either the carrier sits at the back and is successful at killing the enemy, or the bad guys take one objective and decide to run strait for the carrier to kill it. Either way there is no hard choice. The carrier survives and picks up an objective after wiping most of the bad guys off the map, or, the carrier dies. Needing to take an objective should not be a reason not to take a carrier.

[Dragonman505]

Here it is;
USS Enterprise 25 points
USS Baltimore 18 points
USS St Lo 10 points
USS S B Roberts 6 points
SBD Dauntless X2 26 points
F4F Wildcat X2 14 points
Total 99 points

[Joisey]

Here it is;
USS Enterprise 25 points
USS Baltimore 18 points
USS St Lo 10 points
USS S B Roberts 6 points
SBD Dauntless X2 26 points
F4F Wildcat X2 14 points
Total 99 points

Total.....Sub......Bait

Try this:

3 x Barb 36 points

1 x Baltimore 18 points

1 x Atlanta 12 points

1 x St. Lo 10 points

2 x Sea Hurricane 10 points

1 x Catalina 7 points

1 x Fletcher 7 points

[Cale]

I like my British no-battleship fleet fairly well.

Arc Royal
Truculent x4
2x Swordfish
2x Sea Hurricaine.

It's a shame, really. British planes are bad, and American subs are bad, but it seems cheesy to use American subs with british planes. I guess there were a number of T-class SS in the Pacific, though, so it's not entirely unreasonable to use a fleet like:

Enterprise (25) (That FS bonus is gold)
Dauntless (13)
Dauntless (13)
Wildcat (7)
Truculent (12)
Truculent (12)
Baltimore (18)
100 points

I like this one a lot, actually. I might try it sometime.