Draw the CAP

[alfa]

The USA Devastator has the special rule "Draw the CAP" - " At the end of the Air Mission phase, if this unit is in the same sector as an enemy Fighter, roll a die. On a 4 or higher, enemy Fighters must attack this unit in the Air Defense phase if able."
It means that all enemy fighters must attack the Devastator even if already aborted?

[Count_Ciano]

The USA Devastator has the special rule "Draw the CAP" - " At the end of the Air Mission phase, if this unit is in the same sector as an enemy Fighter, roll a die. On a 4 or higher, enemy Fighters must attack this unit in the Air Defense phase if able."
It means that all enemy fighters must attack the Devastator even if already aborted?

No, since an aborted unit is "not able" to attack any air units, IIRC.

[alfa]

Sorry, I mean if the Devastator is already aborted.

[pwolf66]

Sorry, I mean if the Devastator is already aborted.

No, because by rule, aborted aircraft can no longer be subjected to further attacks.

So once the Devestator(s) are aborted, any remaining enemy fighters who have not already gone air-to-air this turn are free to attack any legal target they wish.

Paul

[MidnMike]

actually, the question is moot because the devastator can't be aborted at the time this rule is applied... This rule takes place at the end of the Air Mission phase; nothing's had a chance to shoot at and abort the Devastator yet.

[MidnMike]

or actually, I guess you meant if after one fighter is forced to attack it and aborts it, does it continue to draw CAP... hmmm let me go check something

[MidnMike]

hmm yep sure enough, aborted counters go on immediately upon scoring the hits, not at the end of the air defense phase... so it's not a moot question, and pwolf is correct.

This brought something else to my attention though... having aborted counters take effect immediately means escorting fighters could abort defending fighters and prevent them from getting to shoot at the bombers if the escorts get to shoot first... This means there's yet another advantage to losing initiative... I think the whole fixed turn order upon deciding initiative really has to go... if you win initiative, you should have the choice of what turn order advantages/disadvantages you want!

[Dameclese]

Remember Cant Trumps can in the system... EXCEPT.. read on

also at the end of tha air MISSION phase is when thier abilitiy occures, befoire the defence or the air attack phase, at this point there is no way that the Devistor could be aborted. it has just been placed on the board.
-so before any firing occures, roll your d6's and see if it takes affect. at the END of the AIR MISSION phase
-now advance to the Air Defence phase, fire at the devistator with your ships or who ever you want with your ships...etc. IF you abort the devistaor, dosent matter. if not, same deal. next phase. Blow him up to make a difference :D
-Air attack phase. normally if a plane is aborted you cant attck it. However Special abiliies TRUMP the rules in the book. P32 of the rule book. so REGARLESS of the plane aborted or not. your Fighters in the region need to chase it down so too speak. if your First attack takes it out, all other fighter attack for the round can attack other targets normally.

And yes, Going first can have some very good advantages, as well as disadvantages. moving 2nd is always perferable. and Shooting first in the air attack phase allows your planes to "possibly" about enemy bomb runs on your ships etc... this is VERY true to real life naval air combat. if your Cap patrol is able to rush out and intercept th bombers, after evading/overcoming thier fighter screen, then the bombers get shot down. most times. :o
My personal take on it is that initive reall only matters at two stages, movement and the air attack phase the way things are setup. winning initive puts you on the defensive in the movemnt phase and on the Offensive during the air attack phase, so winnning or losing initive is a mixed bag ether way.

Just my 2 cents

[Remember-OWS-]

...
This brought something else to my attention though... having aborted counters take effect immediately means escorting fighters could abort defending fighters and prevent them from getting to shoot at the bombers if the escorts get to shoot first... This means there's yet another advantage to losing initiative... I think the whole fixed turn order upon deciding initiative really has to go... if you win initiative, you should have the choice of what turn order advantages/disadvantages you want!

If you read in the glossary under "Aborted":

Aborted: An Aircraft hit by an attack whose
successes are equal to or greater than its
armor rating is aborted. Aircraft don’t get
damaged; instead, they’re forced to abort
when an Anti-air attack succeeds against
their armor rating. An aborted Aircraft ends
its current mission with no further action. An
Aircraft can’t be aborted twice in the same
turn—as soon as it receives its first aborted
result, it’s immune to any further attacks. It’s
possible for two Aircraft fighting each other
in the Air Defense phase to abort each other.
Aborted counters are removed during the Air
Return phase.

I never read anywhere the Aborted is a immediate action, but I read An aborted Aircraft ends its current mission with no further action in that part of the Glossary... and that leads to confusion.

I would rely on this info, page 22:
Once an Aircraft is aborted by one Anti-air attack, additional Anti-air attacks against it have no further effect on that unit. Aborted Aircraft can’t attack in the Air Attack phase.


So if we take the last sentence: Aborted Aircraft can’t attack in the
Air Attack phase, then both aircraft can attack each other in the Anti-Air Attack phase. So Fighters can both attack themselves in that phase.

[Endbringer]

Right, as far I see it. There is never a moment in the game where a unit is denied an attack in the same phase. Yet.

When your fighter is aborted in the Air Defense phase, it still gets to attack in that phase (as long as it hasn't already). There are those few lines already quoted by the others that confuse the whole thing, but all in all I believe this is the way they meant it to be.

[Der Leiter]

So if we take the last sentence: Aborted Aircraft can’t attack in the
Air Attack phase, then both aircraft can attack each other in the Anti-Air Attack phase. So Fighters can both attack themselves in that phase.

This is how I've been playing it.

I've only ever actually used Draw the CAP once though. Most of the time it hasn't seemed too spectacular.

[IXJac]

In my allied carrier fleet I play with Swordfish flying off the Ark Royal rather than Devastators. Swordfish tend to draw fire anyway, since they're so vulnerable but pack one hell of a whallop.

I honestly can't see sacrificing one of my four stacked aircraft for a target drone like the Devastator. I'd rather take an extra Dauntless. The Devastator is a part of history, and I'm glad its in game, but it will rarely fly in one of my fleets.

[TheFoeHammer]

In my allied carrier fleet I play with Swordfish flying off the Ark Royal rather than Devastators. Swordfish tend to draw fire anyway, since they're so vulnerable but pack one hell of a whallop.

I honestly can't see sacrificing one of my four stacked aircraft for a target drone like the Devastator. I'd rather take an extra Dauntless. The Devastator is a part of history, and I'm glad its in game, but it will rarely fly in one of my fleets.

I agree. The few times I have played it, my opponent usually shoots the Devastator with AA from a ship, then the fighters do what they want to anyway.

For one extra point, the Swordfish makes a much better anti-ship/ASW platform.

[XAos]

The USA Devastator has the special rule "Draw the CAP" - " At the end of the Air Mission phase, if this unit is in the same sector as an enemy Fighter, roll a die. On a 4 or higher, enemy Fighters must attack this unit in the Air Defense phase if able."
It means that all enemy fighters must attack the Devastator even if already aborted?
I asked this question on the AAM-FAQ (http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?t=19210)

[Remember-OWS-]

I asked this question on the AAM-FAQ (http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?t=19210)

I saw your question/answer XAos, but from my understanding, Steve is wrong.

You should point out the lines I've took from the rulebook.

[maciej12]

I understood this SA to represent what happened in the Battle of Midway. After the second set of torpedo planes attacked the Japanese fleet, their fighters went off to chase down the remaning Devastators. This played a huge part in the battle because when the Dauntless's came in right after that--there was no fighter cover left to disrupt the attack. Result--Scratch three flattops!! So it stands to reason that the Draw the CAP SA would clear the fighters out for clear attacks by othe planes. So I read it as ALL fighters MUST attack the designated aircraft. I think that this is just one of many ways that this game is trying to be more histoical, and this also makes planes as a group a better weapon.

[pwolf66]

I think that this is just one of many ways that this game is trying to be more histoical, and this also makes planes as a group a better weapon.

I truely hope not as it seems rather unbalancing to create an SA to reflect one specific battle. Unlike the Hood, TBDs are not unique units.

Paul

[lamme102]

I think that the just based on the statement "it's possible for 2 planes to abort eachother" that means that even if player 1 aborts player 2's plane. Player 2 can still make and attack with the plane in that phase (which would obviously be the air defense phase.) They way to solve the problem would have been if they said place an aborted counter face down then turn over the counters at the end of the phase like normal. This would still make the plane useless in the air attack phase which is the point of the rule. Besides other then fighters the rule would have no effect since no other aircraft have anti air attacks. They should have just made it like everything else with the face down counters till the end of the phase.

[MidnMike]

Besides other then fighters the rule would have no effect since no other aircraft have anti air attacks.

And this is something I've had a problem with from the beginning... whatever happened to tailgunners?

[IXJac]

As a defensive weapon, factored into the armour I imagine.

It's not like tailgunners in single engined planes habitually wiped out enemy squadrons.

[XAos]

No, because by rule, aborted aircraft can no longer be subjected to further attacks.

So once the Devestator(s) are aborted, any remaining enemy fighters who have not already gone air-to-air this turn are free to attack any legal target they wish.

Paul
The actual wording in the rules (for aborted aircraft), never explicityly says it can't be attacked. They say additional attacks have no effect.
P.22 "additional antiair attacks have no further effect on that unit" or P.30 "it's Immune to any further attacks". So if the FAQ answer is wrong & fighters can continue attacking an aborted Devastator. They could not destroy it, regardless of dice rolls.

I saw your question/answer XAos, but from my understanding, Steve is wrong.
You should point out the lines I've took from the rulebook.
If you think that, you could re-ask the question yourself.

I didn't orrigionally ask the question because I had a strong opinion (one way or the other) on the correct answer. I asked it just to cover all the options on "aborting" aircraft.

[Bigblue2]

I truely hope not as it seems rather unbalancing to create an SA to reflect one specific battle. Unlike the Hood, TBDs are not unique units. Paul

Take a look at the swordfish ability vs. battleships (i.e. Bismark). These historical SAs are sprinkled through-out the game.

As for the raging debate about the Draw the CAP SA. I thought that the SA took effect at the beginning of the air defense phase. Any enemy fighters were obligated to attack the devastator regardless of whether they could damage it or not (its already aborted). It is of the highest cheese factor to think that an enemy ship firing first could negate the SA.

[MidnMike]

well by that interpretation, one devastator negates all fighters, which I think is going too far in the other direction... Once it's aborted, they shouldn't have to keep attacking it

[Gladewind]

well by that interpretation, one devastator negates all fighters, which I think is going too far in the other direction... Once it's aborted, they shouldn't have to keep attacking it

Correction: One devastator negates HALF of the fighters, its only a 4+ roll to chase them. Torpedo planes were low and slow, making them easy targets for enemy fighters.
The way I look at it, the rules say special disadvantages may not be ignored. You can't opt out of your ship being Slow or having a Fatal Flaw, nor should there be an option for fighters not to pummel the weak TBDs. It is a disadvantage for the TBD player to know that plane is probably going to be shot down (vital 6 remember) every time its sent up with only a 20% chance of doing any damage if by some miracle it lived.

[MidnMike]

Draw the CAP is not a disadvantage, especially if fighters have to continue shooting it after it's been hit... You send it in to ensure that the rest of your planes don't get attacked by fighters.

Which brings me to another question... What if you have two devastators? which one do all the fighters have to attack?

[Bigblue2]

In that case, either one is a valid, legal target. Choose one. I would choose the unaborted one first. :D

[maciej12]

After seeing so many people on this board talking about how over poerful BB's are and that airplanes are underpowered. I would think that this SA is one of the most powerful in the game. As MidnMike said it is not a disadvantage to the plane, it can make planes almost as powerful as BB's.

Try attacking the Yamato with two Devastators, Two Dauntlesses (all off of two Enterprise class carriers), and a PBY. Use PBY Shadow SA and the Expert Bomber SA from both carriers. Then use the Draw the CAP for one Devastator. If you get through the AA from the ship then you have three attacks, regardless of how many Zeke'e are flying cover. Three dice from torpedoes, and 13 dice two times from the bombers. It works well I did three hull points of damage to the Yamato and didn't have a single ship in range. I believe that this is how it was intended to work.

[jheitz4581]

What is the official ruling on this? Is there a concensus? The answer in the rules forum (via the link earleir) was a little vague: 'Under Effects of Damage (page 30), it does not state that an aborted aircraft can't attack. It states that it "ends its current mission with no further action." That includes attacking, obviously, but it also includes putting a special ability into play.' Doesn't the Devastator's ability come into play at the end of the air mission phase?

[maciej12]

SA's overrule the rule book, that's why they are "special" they are exceptions to the rule. So the wording on the card should be taken literally. It would be nice to have the designer chime in here though wouldn't it? (hint, hint) Please.

[jheitz4581]

It would be nice to have the designer chime in here though wouldn't it? (hint, hint) Please.

I agree!

The problem I have is with the language of Draw the CAP. Doesn't it read that if a 4+ is rolled then enemy fighters must attack the Devastator in the Air Attack phase if able? Why would they have that caveat? When would an enemy fighter not be able to attack? That leads me to believe that what the rules intend is that once a plane receives an abort counter, you cannot attack that plane anymore; it ceases to be a legitimate target.

[maciej12]

I don't think that "if able" makes much difference here. If it can attack, it must attack the Devastator.

This is starting to remind me of "Blast from the Past", "Because he must!"

[DeathsHead420]

You have to pass a die roll to attack the wildcat. otherwise yes you have to attack the bomber

[XAos]

Correction: One devastator negates HALF of the fighters, its only a 4+ roll to chase them.
As I read the SA thats one dice roll by the Devastator to make all the fighters chase it. Not one roll by each fighter. Theres no option for half the fighters to chase it.

[Gladewind]

I think you're right, I pulled out the card to reread it.

Draw the CAP - At the end of the Air Mission phase, if this unit is in the same sector has an enemy Fighter, roll a die. On a 4 or higher, enemy fighters must attack this unit in the Air Defence phase if able.

It sounds like the TDB rolls one die, on a 4+ all the fighters start to attack it. As soon as its aborted or destroyed, the fighters go back to doing their own thing. I suppose the question remains as to which order you're permitted to engage the TDB. Do the fighters, required to attack due to a SA, roll first or does the defender have the option to fire their ship in hopes of freeing the fighters?

The last wrench is page 22, "Once an aircraft is aborted by one Antiair attack, additional Antiair attacks against it have no further effect on that unit."
It doesn't say you can't fire more AA at an aborted aircraft, only that its pointless to do so. It sort of sounds like if the ship aborts the TBD, the fighters run off chasing it.


All I know is, I'm more confused about "Draw the Cap" than I was before I read this thread. I think I'll need to wait for a FAQ on it.

[XAos]

All I know is, I'm more confused about "Draw the Cap" than I was before I read this thread. I think I'll need to wait for a FAQ on it.
There is already a FAQ
I asked this question on the AAM-FAQ (http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?t=19210)

But some of the people posting on this thread think the FAQ may be wrong.???

My belief is that the FAQ is not strictly consistant with the wording of every entry in the rulebook on this subject. But the overall intent is probably correct.

[jheitz4581]

The problem with the FAQ is that it was cryptic. When you posted your question XAos, Steve referred back to his response to Q.2. The problem with that is Q.2 referred to the Kondor's SA. He said that an aborted plane ends its current mission with no further action. He went on to say that "no further action" refers to SA's as well as attacking in the air attack phase. Well, that's fine with the Kondor's anti-ship missile SA; that's an active ability that requires an action on the part of the Kondor. Draw the CAP is different for two reasons: 1) it happens at the end of the air mission phase, prior to the plane being aborted rather than after; and, 2) it is passive, requiring no further action on the part of the Devastator.

Now, while I agree that it appears that the intent is that Draw the CAP ends upon the Devastator's being aborted, neither the SA nor Steve's answer to your question are very clear.

[MidnMike]

yeah it's pretty clear what SHOULD happen, but we need the semantics cleared up in anticipation of the inevitable rules lawyering at tournaments

[XAos]

If you want a clearer official answer, the obvious solution. Is to ask a clearer question than I did, on the FAQ forum.:)

[jheitz4581]

If you want a clearer official answer, the obvious solution. Is to ask a clearer question than I did, on the FAQ forum.:)

I think your question couldn't have been any clearer XAos: 3) Aborted aircraft are (various pages in the rules) "Immune to attack" But does that mean they can't be attacked or that an attack has no effect. If the later, do enemy fighters all have to attack a Devastaor (Draw the CAP) even after it's aborted. ?

It's the response of "see no. 2 above" that I had a problem with.

[IXJac]

The response could be clearer, but the only way "See 2" ("2" being that an aborted aircraft is prevented from "putting a special ability into play") makes sense is if the SA immediately ceases to function once the Devastator is aborted.

[maciej12]

Got a solid answer on this:

http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?t=19469

[Maine]

Don't forget that the ability says, enemy fighters must attack during the Air Defense phase if able. Once aborted, the rules for aborted say a plane cannot be attacked anymore, therefore nothing is "able" to attack it and may proceed with regular Air Defense.

[XAos]

Once aborted, the rules for aborted say a plane cannot be attacked anymore,
Thats not quite what the rules say.
P.22 "additional antiair attacks have no further effect on that unit"
or P.30 "it's Immune to any further attacks".
From that wording they could be attacked, but the attack has no effect.
So the clariffication maciej12 got is indeed neccesary to remove an ambiguity.:cool: