Hey, you counter and chit grognards... a question...

[gstrand]

OK grognards, help me out here. I want a "more serious than A&AM but not nauseatingly complex like ASL or Advanced Tobruk..." traditional wargame. I have Sergeants!, and need something with better components and clarity. I've sort of narrowed it down to two...

Which should I pick?
- Panzer Grenadier from Avalanche Press, or
- Lock & Load: Band of Heroes from Matrix?

My criteria are WWII, ease of learning/clarity of rules (I hate having to always have a rulebook handy) and subsequently ease of teaching, short time to play and "cool graphics" factors... help me decide.

Thanks!

-Gus

[Y2UAsk]

Between those two, I'd go with PG. Despite their claims to the contrary, I find L&L unnecessarily fiddly.

Before making that decision, though, have a look at Combat Commander. It's a real contender in that category. I haven't played it yet (WotC_Bob has), but what I've seen is impressive.

Steve

[J.L.Robert]

Are you looking for the same approximate scale? If you are, then try one of the smaller PanzerGrenadier sets. If you want a larger scale battle (operational level--that is, single battles or campaigns), there are some other very decent and affordable titles from Avalanche Press, also.

GMT does offer the latest and greatest in card-driven games (CDG's), like Combat Commander and World War II: Barbarossa to Berlin.

[Lagduf]

The Panzer Grenadier series of games is definitely simple to learn, and you get plenty of value if you purchase the first module, Eastern Front Deluxe, which contains almost the entire Soviet and German order of Battles. There are over 100 scenarios from small to really large though i understand it is a hit and miss affair as far as scenario balance is concerned. The game is at the Platoon level. There are enough modules to cover the entire war, but i hear the PTO stuff isn't very good. Also due to the units being platoon level games wont be a "bloodbath" as it will be harder than in other games to knock a unit down a step (as this means you've eliminated 2ish squads) - again some don't like this, i think it's fine given the scale of the game. Panzer grenadier also has an introductory module featuring US and German forces that can be had for less than $15 USD. I like this series but I don't think it is as polished (in presentation at least) as some of the other systems out there.

Combat Commander: Europe seems pretty popular and well liked by many, though keep in mind it is a card driven game (which some don't like). I've read the rules for this one (but havent played) and it seems worthwhile introductory squad level game that will satisfy even those looking for a deeper experience. Combat Commander does not (i believe) have tanks in the game. It is simply an infantry game (a plus in my opinion) though it does feature mortars and even offboard artillery. Expansions are on the way, and I might pick this up soon though im sort of leaning towards picking up FFGs tide of iron because I know that would get more play in my group due to simplicity of the rules and the nice "gamey" bits. I only have one friend who will play any serious wargames with me (we just started learning ASL).

People seem to have strong opinions of the lock and load series, but i've not really looked into it too much except to know that there are some games (wargames and nonwargames) that i'd rather pick up first.

Eitherway I believe the rules for the systems you've taken an interest in to all have the rules available online. Definitely read those if you haven't.

ALSO: Panzer Grenader and Lock and Load have FREE introductory Print and Play scenarios with a decent amount of units and maps that you print, mount yourself, and then try a few sample scenarios out.

Are you a member of Boardgamegeek.com? I find the reviews helpful:

L 'n L:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/18460

Panzer Grenadier: Eastern Front Deluxe:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/16804

Combat Commander Europe:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/21050

you probably wont go wrong purchasing any of these.

Also: Define "short play time" - i consider a short play time to be around 2-3 hours.

[gstrand]

A couple hours would be cool. I hadn't thought of Combat Commander, but love card mechanics - the GMT Down in Flames series is on my list of must gets, and a coworker is addicted to their Great Battles series. I'm working on getting him in to AAM and WAS... heh heh...

Thanks, guys, and keep them coming! Oh, and yes, I am a BGG member - I just edited the A&AM entry a week or three ago with the new set info - click "play" in my sig... ;)

[Reemule]

Flames of War is a pretty good game.

[FNG]

Check out the new Tide of Iron game coming out by Fantasy Flight Games publisher. It's suposed to be released in May, there are some reveiws out there to be read, but the real reaction will be forthcoming. I'm looking forward to playing TOI and have preordered a copy from Thoughthammer. It was going to be released last year, but the company rejected some of the first printings due to errors, FFG is a good game producer and there satandards are high.
The game has miniatures as well as a good set of Squad level tactical rules, that include armour and logistical support.
Later,
Karl

[gstrand]

I've looked at TOI, for me the miniatures factor is a drawback - with A&AM, WAS, and Memoir '44 in the quiver, I have lots of plastic soldiers and machines. If I want more non-collectibles, I'll get M44 expansions... it's a great game.

I actually want cardboard pieces... ;) So now it's between Panzergrenadier and Combat Commander... choices, choices...

[Y2UAsk]

And, hey, if you're a retro kind of guy, don't overlook the classics -- Panzerblitz and Panzer Leader from the original Avalon Hill line are still fine games, IMHO. You can snag copies off eBay for a fraction of what you'll pay for newer games. Also there's Panzer Command from Victory Games, which I consider the finest tactical-level boardgame ever. Its only 'problem' is its narrow focus -- Soviet Union, southern front, 1942. It's a bit harder to locate than PB and PL but worth the search.

Steve

[Cruizin2000]

Decision Games Battle for Germany is a fun and easy game as well. You can't go wrong with PB abd PL because they have alot of scenarios.

C2000

[ChonChuuk]

I have to second the Panzerblitz and Panzer Leader recommendations. They are the two games that got me into wargaming.

[Cruizin2000]

If you can get your hands on Attactix Games' Normandy, Victory at Waterloo, or 8th Army they are fun and easy games. Panzer Gruppe Gudarian is a blast too if you can find it.

C2000

[Photoner Hawkwind]

Remember, that Panzer Grenadier is a platoon level game like Panzer Blitz and Panzer leader and not squad level like A&AM or Lock n load, ATS & ASL.

I think you're going to find that the squad level will be a little more complex.

If you want to look at other old stuff on ebay, you might try SPI's Sniper and Sniper Hetzer. Or you can go to MMP's website and see how long before their new Panzer Blitz game will be available.

[gstrand]

I am more and more leaning toward PG - the Airborne starter seems to be the ticket - price is right, too. Expandable if I like it, Platoon Level, etc. I am also very interested in the Guadalcanal version, though... I really favor the pacific...

[Cruizin2000]

I am more and more leaning toward PG - the Airborne starter seems to be the ticket - price is right, too. Expandable if I like it, Platoon Level, etc. I am also very interested in the Guadalcanal version, though... I really favor the pacific...

The Airborne map doesn't match up with the rest of the modules. Just a little FYI for you. Good luck with your new purchases.:)

C2000

[frogczar]

Give Advanced Squad Leader a try. I know it looks confusing, but honestly once you manage to play through it once, it gets a lot easier. In fact, I'd say its even easier to understand in some ways then A&AM.

I went into the new MMP starter set 1 completely raw. I had no idea how to play it and after I poured over the rules and tried it out, it was really fun and fast paced.

-Frog

[Lagduf]

Give Advanced Squad Leader a try. I know it looks confusing, but honestly once you manage to play through it once, it gets a lot easier. In fact, I'd say its even easier to understand in some ways then A&AM.

I went into the new MMP starter set 1 completely raw. I had no idea how to play it and after I poured over the rules and tried it out, it was really fun and fast paced.

-Frog

The ASL Starter Kits are wonderful. Once you have a grasp on the basics the transition to full ASL is not that difficult. I found the full rules didn't add additional complexities so much as they gave me MORE tactical options on the battlefield. You just cant beat the price on the ASL SKs either. I really think the initial entry cost into full ASL is still very steep, almost on par with obtainingt the rules and building an army in some miniatures systems such as Warhammer, 40k, etc

If you want to play PG i still think you should download the free Print and Play scenarios on AP's website, and try it out. The Airborne module while cheap and enjoyable, doesn't have much in the way of armor.

For a larger scale game have you looked at the latest game MMP's IGS series, "A Victory Lost"? Supposedly a great introductory wargame with elegant rules, quick playtime, and enough depth or new and veteran grognards.

Either way, let us know what you pick.

[J.L.Robert]

The ASL Starter Kits are THE way for newcomers to the system should go. They are well-designed and do the job properly in teaching the fundamentals to an ASL neophyte.

Since it seems you are focusing more on pure tactical games, rather than grand tactical (PanzerBlitz) or larger scale games, I'd also recommend the Sniper! series for man-level games. The base game focuses on WWII, but is open-ended. The Hetzer Sniper! set focuses exclusively on WWII (but is rather difficult to obtain).

For tactical (squad level and smaller) games, there is one more man-level game, often overlooked. West End Games produced a game called Soldiers. The game had a chit-pull initative system. Not as complex as the other games, but still an interesting game to play.

[Y2UAsk]

It's my understanding that the 2nd edition version of Sniper and Sniper: Hetzer were designed by a bona-fide genius ...

Steve

[gstrand]

OK... I went with Panzer Grenadier Airborne Introductory kit - here's why:

1) I am unsure if I am going to like the hardcore counter games, so the price was WAY right. I love M44 and A&AM/WAS, and am a huge fan of card mechanics as well.

2) With the inexpensive nature of PG:Airborne, and the fact that my FLGS had a copy of Lightning:Midway on the next shelf down... I had some extra coin to pick up that one... (See card games above, and know that I love Naval Battlers and Battlegroup from a War perspective, Wyatt Earp, and the KILLER BUNNIES series... and have been a MTG, VS. etc. addict in the past, recently rehabilitated by my wife.)

3) My Hotzmat should be here soon, so I need to save money for JR Minis buildings...

4) I REALLY liked the counter graphics on PG - they made sense to me in the free downloads more than the others.

5) PG has the Guadalcanal version if I like the system once I learn it, and I love the Pacific Theater.

6) I can't find my copy of Magic Realm and fear my retired folks tossed that box when they moved - and I may need to replace the game... I loved that game as a teen... but replacement will be pricey.

[gstrand]

It's my understanding that the 2nd edition version of Sniper and Sniper: Hetzer were designed by a bona-fide genius ...

Steve

Some TSR time on your resume, Sir?

[Lagduf]

OK... I went with Panzer Grenadier Airborne Introductory kit - here's why:

1) I am unsure if I am going to like the hardcore counter games, so the price was WAY right. I love M44 and A&AM/WAS, and am a huge fan of card mechanics as well.

2) With the inexpensive nature of PG:Airborne, and the fact that my FLGS had a copy of Lightning:Midway on the next shelf down... I had some extra coin to pick up that one... (See card games above, and know that I love Naval Battlers and Battlegroup from a War perspective, Wyatt Earp, and the KILLER BUNNIES series... and have been a MTG, VS. etc. addict in the past, recently rehabilitated by my wife.)

3) My Hotzmat should be here soon, so I need to save money for JR Minis buildings...

4) I REALLY liked the counter graphics on PG - they made sense to me in the free downloads more than the others.

5) PG has the Guadalcanal version if I like the system once I learn it, and I love the Pacific Theater.

6) I can't find my copy of Magic Realm and fear my retired folks tossed that box when they moved - and I may need to replace the game... I loved that game as a teen... but replacement will be pricey.

Nice choice, when you open your copy of Airborne make sure that it has the THIRD (3rd) EDITION rules inside. I somehow snagged an older copy that had the old 2nd edition ruleset. From what I understand the transition from the 2nd to 3rd edition of the rules is somewhat significant and makes the game actually better. The 3rd edition rules are on AP's website if you already haven't downloaded them.

When I get some extra cash I'm buying the PG East Front Deluxe Module. My experience with airborne was a positive one. The only thing I would have like to have seen in the starter module was maybe one or two tank heavy scenario. But for what it is it's worth it.

I wish my FLGS stocked hex and counter wargames. He has lots of collectible minis, CCGs, some euro and american style board games, comics, and he recently got some Games Workshop stuff. Maybe I should start ordering stuff through him.

Happy Gaming!

Let us know what you think.

[Photoner Hawkwind]

It's my understanding that the 2nd edition version of Sniper and Sniper: Hetzer were designed by a bona-fide genius ...

Steve

My copy says it's by some guy named Steve Winter whoever that is.:D

I also have the first edition SPI Patrol rules in the same box so I didn't want to confuse the designers.

[Photoner Hawkwind]

OK... I went with Panzer Grenadier Airborne Introductory kit - here's why:

1) I am unsure if I am going to like the hardcore counter games, so the price was WAY right. I love M44 and A&AM/WAS, and am a huge fan of card mechanics as well.

2) With the inexpensive nature of PG:Airborne, and the fact that my FLGS had a copy of Lightning:Midway on the next shelf down... I had some extra coin to pick up that one... (See card games above, and know that I love Naval Battlers and Battlegroup from a War perspective, Wyatt Earp, and the KILLER BUNNIES series... and have been a MTG, VS. etc. addict in the past, recently rehabilitated by my wife.)

3) My Hotzmat should be here soon, so I need to save money for JR Minis buildings...

4) I REALLY liked the counter graphics on PG - they made sense to me in the free downloads more than the others.

5) PG has the Guadalcanal version if I like the system once I learn it, and I love the Pacific Theater.

6) I can't find my copy of Magic Realm and fear my retired folks tossed that box when they moved - and I may need to replace the game... I loved that game as a teen... but replacement will be pricey.

Franck's Fun N Follies on ebay gives a nice below retail discount on the PG games and I know the guy personally. He is a standup guy who is very reliable. Just in case you like the game.

He talked me into the Guadalcanal, Airborne and Bulge games in that series.

[Photoner Hawkwind]

The ASL Starter Kits are wonderful. Once you have a grasp on the basics the transition to full ASL is not that difficult. I found the full rules didn't add additional complexities so much as they gave me MORE tactical options on the battlefield. You just cant beat the price on the ASL SKs either. I really think the initial entry cost into full ASL is still very steep, almost on par with obtainingt the rules and building an army in some miniatures systems such as Warhammer, 40k, etc

If you want to play PG i still think you should download the free Print and Play scenarios on AP's website, and try it out. The Airborne module while cheap and enjoyable, doesn't have much in the way of armor.

For a larger scale game have you looked at the latest game MMP's IGS series, "A Victory Lost"? Supposedly a great introductory wargame with elegant rules, quick playtime, and enough depth or new and veteran grognards.

Either way, let us know what you pick.

I really like ASL, but the drawback is that you can't play a Pacific scenario without overpaying on ebay for the Code of Bushido module. Although Curt Schilling has promised to reprint it, they are taking their sweet time about it.:(

I also like ATS just because I can play any of their games as stand alone games and don't have to wait for additional modules.

[J.L.Robert]

I really like ASL, but the drawback is that you can't play a Pacific scenario without overpaying on ebay for the Code of Bushido module.

You mean I have to buy ANOTHER copy of CoB? :(

I need to find those Starter Kits, so I can get myself back into ASL, after a 15 year absence. I was smart enough to buy Doomed Batallions the moment they hit the shelves, and just picked up Armies of Oblivion. Now, I just have to find a 2nd Edition Rulebook, and I'll be ready to get back in the saddle.

[Cruizin2000]

My copy says it's by some guy named Steve Winter whoever that is.:D

I also have the first edition SPI Patrol rules in the same box so I didn't want to confuse the designers.

It looks like I'm going to have to pull out my copy of Hetzer Sniper and check that out. :)

C2000

[MarcusAurelius]

I'd also suggest checking out some of the titles from Columbia Games. Blocks are essentially an evolution of traditional counters — introducing fog of war and allowing a greater range of steps for combat units.

Personally, my favorite game in their line is Hammer of the Scots for the faster play. But EastFront and Rommel in the Desert both get high marks for the elegance of the system, especially the supply rules.

[Lagduf]

You mean I have to buy ANOTHER copy of CoB? :(

I need to find those Starter Kits, so I can get myself back into ASL, after a 15 year absence. I was smart enough to buy Doomed Batallions the moment they hit the shelves, and just picked up Armies of Oblivion. Now, I just have to find a 2nd Edition Rulebook, and I'll be ready to get back in the saddle.


You can buy the 2nd edition rulebook directly from Multimanpublishing.

They're out of the binder that the pages currently go in, so you'll just be ordering the the pages to the rulebook and the appropriate charts. You'll just have to provide your own binder. They're only asking $66 for it without the binder as compared to $80 with the binder.

Any online gaming store should have the starter kits (#2 is out of print at the moment), and #3 just started shipping to those who pre-ordered it (i'm not sure if it is available from any online retailers yet), but #1 is widely available again. The starter kits are great for learning the basic sequence of play.

I'd love to play some Japanese scenarios in ASL, but i fear Code of Bushido is going to be out of print for a very long time. Maybe after the reprint of Doomed Battalions, and when Valor of the Guards come out (VotG is supposed to be out this year) they'll reprint CoB.

[J.L.Robert]

You can buy the 2nd edition rulebook directly from Multimanpublishing.

There's a game convention next month in the L.A. area. I'll see if a copy can be had there, and support my local businesses. :)

Maybe after the reprint of Doomed Battalions, and when Valor of the Guards come out (VotG is supposed to be out this year) they'll reprint CoB.

What is this Valor of the Guards? I thought every OOB was finished with Armies of Oblivion. Or is this a new Historical Module?

[Photoner Hawkwind]

There's a game convention next month in the L.A. area. I'll see if a copy can be had there, and support my local businesses. :)



What is this Valor of the Guards? I thought every OOB was finished with Armies of Oblivion. Or is this a new Historical Module?

Valor of the Guards, the seventh historical module for Advanced Squad Leader, simulates the Stalingrad battles for the Central Railway Station in September of 1942.

[Photoner Hawkwind]

You can buy the 2nd edition rulebook directly from Multimanpublishing.

They're out of the binder that the pages currently go in, so you'll just be ordering the the pages to the rulebook and the appropriate charts. You'll just have to provide your own binder. They're only asking $66 for it without the binder as compared to $80 with the binder.

Any online gaming store should have the starter kits (#2 is out of print at the moment), and #3 just started shipping to those who pre-ordered it (i'm not sure if it is available from any online retailers yet), but #1 is widely available again. The starter kits are great for learning the basic sequence of play.

I'd love to play some Japanese scenarios in ASL, but i fear Code of Bushido is going to be out of print for a very long time. Maybe after the reprint of Doomed Battalions, and when Valor of the Guards come out (VotG is supposed to be out this year) they'll reprint CoB.

Although I picked up my copy at an outrageously high price on ebay, I hope they do reprint it soon for all of those new folks;) who want to play Pacific battles.

[J.L.Robert]

Valor of the Guards, the seventh historical module for Advanced Squad Leader, simulates the Stalingrad battles for the Central Railway Station in September of 1942.

Ah...Good StuffTM. I wonder if the maps will reach far enough to connect with the Red Barricades maps. I certainly hope so! DYO Madness!!! :eek:

[Y2UAsk]

Now that would be cool. Red Barricades was amazing. An RB campaign packed in more drama than half-a-dozen John Wayne movies.

Steve

[J.L.Robert]

Now that would be cool. Red Barricades was amazing. An RB campaign packed in more drama than half-a-dozen John Wayne movies.

Steve

If you thought the RB campaigns are fun...my buddy and I once played a DYO scenario...his 1500-points of Germans vs. my 2000-points of Soviets. I basically purchased EVERY infantry counter I had available. Had motorcycle-riding Elite Riflemen, Conscripts crossing by ferries, and--get this--Elite Guards/Engineer/Paratroopers! Just because I could! It was such fun!

[Y2UAsk]

In our campaign, across several games -- one of the German players lost the better part of a company in a boobytrapped building; a Soviet hero with an LMG chased three German squads up a gully for six hexes until they finally broke and ran; and two German squads holed up in a one-hex building held off two Soviet companies with repeated Final Protective Fire. (For those who don't play ASL, every FPF attack doubles as a morale check -- one lousy FPF dice roll would have doomed those squads.)

The best moment came when a German 8-1 leader with a satchel charge tried leading a pair of squads into HtH combat against a 2-level building with two Soviet squads on each floor. Defensive fire broke both squads, but the leader went berserk, charged in, rolled an ambush, and destroyed the first two squads with the satchel charge. Then he recovered the Soviet LMG, charged upstairs, rolled a second ambush, and wiped out those squads, too. It was an incredible series of dice rolls. The whole table was cheering for him, even the Soviet players.

Man, that game is a blast.

Steve

[Lagduf]

In our campaign, across several games -- one of the German players lost the better part of a company in a boobytrapped building; a Soviet hero with an LMG chased three German squads up a gully for six hexes until they finally broke and ran; and two German squads holed up in a one-hex building held off two Soviet companies with repeated Final Protective Fire. (For those who don't play ASL, every FPF attack doubles as a morale check -- one lousy FPF dice roll would have doomed those squads.)

The best moment came when a German 8-1 leader with a satchel charge tried leading a pair of squads into HtH combat against a 2-level building with two Soviet squads on each floor. Defensive fire broke both squads, but the leader went berserk, charged in, rolled an ambush, and destroyed the first two squads with the satchel charge. Then he recovered the Soviet LMG, charged upstairs, rolled a second ambush, and wiped out those squads, too. It was an incredible series of dice rolls. The whole table was cheering for him, even the Soviet players.

Man, that game is a blast.

Steve

Man that sounds like some fun times. I can just image those two german squads fending off hordes of russians!


Also that is one tough, crazy Soviet leader.

Awesome.

[J.L.Robert]

.)

The best moment came when a German 8-1 leader with a satchel charge tried leading a pair of squads into HtH combat against a 2-level building with two Soviet squads on each floor. Defensive fire broke both squads, but the leader went berserk, charged in, rolled an ambush, and destroyed the first two squads with the satchel charge. Then he recovered the Soviet LMG, charged upstairs, rolled a second ambush, and wiped out those squads, too. It was an incredible series of dice rolls. The whole table was cheering for him, even the Soviet players.


By any chance was that sergeant's name Steiner? :cool:

That DYO fight was a lot of fun, too. My friend, playing the Germans, was forced to pull his forces to defend the factory itself. He had a great defensive perimeter. Right up until those para-engineers set up a demo charge...and rolled snake eyes! I think he had 4 squads escape the map.

[gstrand]

I just ended up with Lock and Load: Band of Heroes as well... I'm a sucker for good graphic design. I do hope it is fairly simple, we'll see how it goes!

[Y2UAsk]

I'd be interested in reading your reaction to it once you've played it.

Steve

[gstrand]

You will! PG Airborne is sweet... I'm liking these... uh-oh...

[gstrand]

OK.

First - These games could learn a LOT from A&AM in the instructions department. The instructions are often set up like a technical document, complete with sequential numbered sections (1, 1.1, 1.11, etc) for the bazillions of rules, and rarely include examples of play. I firnly believe that the pages and pages of dry, text-only rules and having to learn them is likely one of the main reasons more people don't play counter games. Once you know the rules, there are still pages of charts to use and decipher. Reminds me of the reams of paper we had playing D&D and my favorite game of the time, "Top Secret" in seventh grade...

That said, I like the Panzer Grenadier game. I am still VERY new at playing these and have only played solo with constant rulebook reviews, but am getting the hang of them. The 15 year old still prefers M44, and is chomping at the bit for me to finish painting the JR minis for our 3D A&AM play.

Steve, you were right with the comparison of Lock n Load being more fiddly. I read through the rulebook, and in spite of the GORGEOUS bits, I am going to wait to try to play it - the squad level does add bucketloads of fiddlyness to the game.

The grognard that used to work on my team brought in B17 Queen of the Skies for me to try when I told him I was going solo... I turned him down for now, as I need another ruleset like I need a chihuhua in a pink purse sitting on my desk. But it really looked cool... (the game, not a yippydog.)

Another observation of the counter games: you're going to keep the ziploc people in business if you get in to them, especially if you want to keep the bits in the boxes they came in. Organization seems difficult and ziplocky.

So, I also recently won the Guadalcanal Panzer Grenadier offering. I have a handful of Airborn scenarios under my belt, it is up in the closet.

One rambling post later, I really like these games, and am finding that they are drawing me closer to A&AM and WAS, rather than pulling me away... go figure. ;)

[Photoner Hawkwind]

Well it's all tactical WWII wargamming and it is all fun so why not let them draw you closer to A&AM.

I even use my ATS scenarios with A&AM.

[gstrand]

Makes sense to me. ;) I am liking it, and having fun with all of them - I enjoy the detail of the rulesets and spimplicity of the chits - it's almost a yin-yang thing... simple game, detailed pieces; complex game, simple pieces...

...which reminds me, I have to get that lichen and felt. I painted up five more buildings in the same scheme as the others I did in the photos in the modeling thread, and some resin JR minis trees, too.

-Gus

[Y2UAsk]

Well, if nothing else, you can put A&A minis on the Panzer Grenadier counters and get a 3D effect ...

That technical style of rules writing, with numbered cases and sub-cases, can be done well and it can be done poorly. When it's done well, it simplifies the process of learning and referencing the rules. When it's done poorly, it only makes things harder. Sadly, it's a lot easier to do poorly than well. It's difficult enough to write rules that are clear and complete for a simple game. Rules writing and editing are complex, technical skills. Too many people seem to think, "I can play a game -- that must mean I can write one, too!"

But stick with it! If the game is good, the reward outweighs the effort. (I recall a review of Victory Games' Peloponnesian War. The reviewer praised it as a game you'd want to keep on your playing shelf for years. When your grandkids laughed at you for it, you could hand it to them and challenge them to learn it -- that would shut them up.)

Steve

[gstrand]

Check it out... we played with the 3d stuff tonight. This is the first time we've set it all up...

http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?t=19065

Stoked on both fronts,

-Gus

[Y2UAsk]

Looks pretty sweet! I have lots of those JR buildings, too, but in micro-scale, which is too small for A&AM. :(

Steve

[Photoner Hawkwind]

Well, if nothing else, you can put A&A minis on the Panzer Grenadier counters and get a 3D effect ...

That technical style of rules writing, with numbered cases and sub-cases, can be done well and it can be done poorly. When it's done well, it simplifies the process of learning and referencing the rules. When it's done poorly, it only makes things harder. Sadly, it's a lot easier to do poorly than well. It's difficult enough to write rules that are clear and complete for a simple game. Rules writing and editing are complex, technical skills. Too many people seem to think, "I can play a game -- that must mean I can write one, too!"

But stick with it! If the game is good, the reward outweighs the effort. (I recall a review of Victory Games' Peloponnesian War. The reviewer praised it as a game you'd want to keep on your playing shelf for years. When your grandkids laughed at you for it, you could hand it to them and challenge them to learn it -- that would shut them up.)

Steve

Well, if only those Sniper rules could have been a little more clear and understandable, I would have... :D Just Kidding! I think they were done just fine.