Yamato ?

[kappa1az]

shouldnt the Yamato have further range than the Iowa since the 18in guns had further range than the 16in guns.

Tim

[TheJudge]

Here is some info I found on both guns:

Iowa-

Designation 16 in/50 caliber (406 mm × 20.3 m) Mark 7
Ship Class Used On Iowa (BB-61) and Montana (BB-67) classes
Date Of Design 1939
Date In Service 1943
Gun Weight 267,904 lb (121,519 kg) (including breech)


239,156 lb (108,479 kg) (without breech)
Gun Length oa 816 in (20.73 m) (breech face to muzzle)
Bore Length 800 in (20.32 m)
Rifling Length 682.9 in (17.34 m)
Grooves (96) 0.150 in deep (3.81 mm)
Lands N/A
Twist Uniform RH 1 in 25
Chamber Volume 27,000 in3 (0.44 m³)
Rate Of Fire 2 rounds per minute
Note: The primer cartridge can be either electric or percussion fired.
Range 41,622 yards (38.059 km or 20.55 nm) with nominal 660 lb (300 kg) powder charge
Muzzle Velocity 2690 ft/s

Yamato-


Bore 460 mm 18.1 inches
Weight 147.3 metric tons 162.4 tons
Length OA 21.13 m 832 inches
Projectile weight 1460 kg 3220 lb
Muzzle velocity 780 m/s 2560 ft/s
Maximum elevation +45/-5 degrees
Maximum range 42,000 meters 45,960 yards
Rate of fire 2 rounds/min

[TheJudge]

As you can see, the max range for the 18 was about 4,000 yards longer or in this game almost a whole sector. The muzzle velocity of the 16 was actually higher so with a non-standard charge could probably shoot as far or farther than the 18 inch.

In my opinion, the Iowa and Yamato should be equal in gunpower and Yamato should have higher armor ratings. The SA's should be torpedo defense 1, Yamato should get extended range 5 and Iowa extended range 4 based on normal fighting conditions and with a range of 46,000 yards, it should be able to shoot at range friggin 9 and Iowa at range 8. ;)

[thenorthman]

My understanding was yes the Yamato's range was farther but her accuaracy went out the door!

That was the reasoning to have her range where it was because they could shoot farther but couldn't hit the broad side of a barn...or BB in the case they were looking for.

Sean

[TheJudge]

Another thing to consider is the record for a battleship hit at range is like 25K yards so having a range of 40K+ is really irrelevant. I think they give the Iowa range 5 because of the quality of the weapon so range 5 is 25K yards meaning it has as good chance to score a hit at range 5 as Yamato, etc at range 4.

So....why did they give Richilieu range 5? We may never know, it certainly didn't have the same quality gun as the MK 7 16 inch.

[Fellblade]

A dev already post their reasons for giving range5 to those two ships. The French had some of the best spotting in the war which the translates into accuracy at range5 (ie. hitting targets was viable) The US gets its range5 from its use of radar to land shells on target. Japan used optical targeting, and while it was second to none, radar was better. Kinda of like a sniper trying to use an iron sight.

[DrMercy]

Though I'm not an expert, I've done a little research on the subject of Ship Gun Ranges during WWII. My knowledge comes from these two articles:

(1) Hone T. (2001) Building a Doctrine: U. S. Naval Tactics and Battle Plans in the Interwar Period. International Journal of Naval History. http://www.ijnhonline.org/volume1_number2_Oct02/articles/article_hone1_doctrine.doc.htm

(2) Jurens W.J. (1991) The Evolution of Battleship Gunnery in the U.S. Navy, 1920-1945 Part 1. Warship International No. 3. http://www.navweaps.com/index_inro/INRO_BB-Gunnery_p1.htm

The first article covers the US.Navy in the interwar period. Here the auther states:

"In the 1920s and 30s, the accuracy of gunfire was dependent on the ability to spot the fall of shot; this in turn relied on the ability to see the impact of shells that missed the target. Spotters had to be able to see not only the masts and superstructure of the target ship, but more importantly, the ship’s waterline. Without being able to gauge the distance between the target ship’s hull and the splashes of missing shells, it was impossible to accurately adjust the fire control solution." (p.10)

"Because of these concerns, the maximum range of accurate gunfire was limited by the curvature of the Earth and the height of the spotting position. In practice, this confined the effective range of battleship gunfire to between 22,000 and 26,000 yards when spotting was restricted to the masts of the firing ship. The only way to increase this distance was to increase the height of the spotting position. Masts could only be built so high; aircraft proved an ideal solution." (p.10)

The second article covers the US.Navy in WWII. Here the auther states:

"The Mark 8 and Mark 13 fire control radar installed during World War II completely revolutionized spotting. Radar, which was much more accurate than visual spotting (at least in range) quickly superseded aircraft spotting entirely, and battleships were soon recommending that their aircraft be removed. Even in perfect weather, optical spotting deteriorated rapidly beyond 18,000 yards; in comparison with the Mark 8 mod 0 fire control radar could spot 16-inch splashes out to about 20,000 yards and the improved Mark 8 mod 3 could reliably spot 14-inch and 16-inch fire out to at least 35,000.30 The Mark 13 radar was even better yet. Officers testing the equipment aboard USS Iowa in 1945 would write:

"Spotting both 5-inch and 16-inch splashes, HC or AP, with the Mark 13 radar is comparable to deliberately drawing a picture of the splashes on paper and looking at it. At all ranges fired during this period, the most inexperienced officer, given a brief explanation of what to expect, can spot splashes accurately to within 100 yards, and to within 50 yards with some experience."" (p.14)

The summary of this is that before the mounting of the Mark 13 radar, which wasn't done before the end of WWII, Gun Fire Ranges was limited to ranges below 36000 Yards or so with aerial spotting. If one takes the WAS range table produced by "Old Fart": http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?t=18655

0 = 0 - 5,000 yards
1 = 5,000 -15,000 yards
2 = 15,000 - 25,000 yards
3 = 25,000 - 35,000 yards
4 = 35,000 - 45,000 yards

then all battleships in WAS should have a max effective range of 3. I've done so in my house rules and it completely rebalances the game. Battleships are less effective now allowing for greater use of carriers, cruisers and destroyers. Furtermore the "dancing battleship" game is also history. However to reflect the superiority of Iowas fire control I've created my own SA where the Iowa if undamaged score hits on 3+ instead of 4+.

Does this make sense or am I far off? Sry about the rusty english btw.