Stukas for the Italians

['Warspite']

While players who wish to play historically accurate are talking about set II, can we please remember that Set I offers more than we think it does.

If an Italian player wants air support then he can field Stukas as an Italian unit. Several units of the Regia Aeronautica including the 96mo and 97mo Gruppi Bombardamento Tuffo, and the 208ma and 238ma Squadriglia used the Ju87B-1 in its tropicalised version. Rumania, Hungary and Bulgaria also used the Stuka in small numbers.

For the Royal Navy the choices are also wider than they appear.

The Royal Navy were the first to use the PBY-Catalina in combat and it was a Catalina which located the Bismarck. The RN also used Wildcats as the Grumman Martlet. An RN Martlet shot down a German bomber on December 25, 1940 while patrolling near Scapa Flow.

An RN player can field PT Boats as a number of Higgins boats were supplied by the US. The RN can also use the St.Lo type CVE as the escort carrier was first developed by RN, notably HMS Audacity. Some 38 CVEs were eventually supplied to the RN by the US.

Britain supplied four J/K/N Class destroyers to the Australians and two more to the Dutch.

Britain also supplied two T-Class [Truculent] type submarines to the Dutch.

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Warspite's greatly revised trade list:
http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?p=268331

[Outlaw]

While players who wish to play historically accurate are talking about set II, can we please remember that Set I offers more than we think it does.

If an Italian player wants air support then he can field Stukas as an Italian unit. Several units of the Regia Aeronautica including the 96mo and 97mo Gruppi Bombardamento Tuffo, and the 208ma and 238ma Squadriglia used the Ju87B-1 in its tropicalised version. Rumania, Hungary and Bulgaria also used the Stuka in small numbers.

For the Royal Navy the choices are also wider than they appear.

The Royal Navy were the first to use the PBY-Catalina in combat and it was a Catalina which located the Bismarck. The RN also used Wildcats as the Grumman Martlet. An RN Martlet shot down a German bomber on December 25, 1940 while patrolling near Scapa Flow.

An RN player can field PT Boats as a number of Higgins boats were supplied by the US. The RN can also use the St.Lo type CVE as the escort carrier was first developed by RN, notably HMS Audacity. Some 38 CVEs were eventually supplied to the RN by the US.

Britain supplied four J/K/N Class destroyers to the Australians and two more to the Dutch.

Britain also supplied two T-Class [Truculent] type submarines to the Dutch.

One N class to the Poles too!

Though no Casablanca Class CVE's were used by the RN, numerous Bogue's were built for them and they are basically the same, at least for game purposes.

['Warspite']

One N class to the Poles too!

Though no Casablanca Class CVE's were used by the RN, numerous Bogue's were built for them and they are basically the same, at least for game purposes.

I have not forgotten the Poles but other Polish vessels are not available so I did not mention them.

Yes you are quite right on the CVE classes, the Casablanca was built for the USN, the Bogues were built for the RN or RCN although I believe the US retained one Bogue for trials purposes.

The Free French operated a couple of Flower Class corvettes I believe but that is not available in the game. If the Flower Class ever crops up in set II be aware that many were used by the RCN and - surprisingly - under reverse Lend-Lease some Flower class were actually supplied to the USN in 1942 as the US Navy was then short of escorts.

Lend-Lease did work both ways - which is how the US Army got the 57mm M1, otherwise known as the British 6-pounder anti-tank gun. The US Army only had a 37mm at the time and urgently needed a better gun.

We supplied drawings of our 6-pounder to the US and the only changes were use of US instead of Imperial threads on the nuts and bolts and a change from shoulder traverse to geared traverse. Strangely the US never adopted the Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot round which gave the British gun a new lease of life in 1944. The Sabot round could penetrate the front of a Tiger 1 at at least 700 yards.

Another example of reverse Lend-Lease is the Mustang P51. This was originally developed to a British specification but the original Allison engine did not develop enough power. However when equipped with the Rolls Royce-designed Merlin it was a different matter.

And thus the Packard-Merlin came into being which powered many US aircraft in WW2.

[gairsy]

Are you going to paint some up in Italian colours then 'Warspite'?

Look forward to seeing them on the modelling section.:)

[Joisey]

Looking forward to Set II, the British also operated the Hellcat and the Corsair from their CVE's.

[gairsy]

Looking forward to Set II, the British also operated the Hellcat and the Corsair from their CVE's.


And the Avenger.

Over a year ago I was in hospital, and an old guy in the next bed to me served on a British carrier (forgot which one) in the far east towards the end of the war, as part of the deck crew.

He says that the American planes were a blessing as they didn't overheat like the watercooled British types did when waiting to fly off.

[Cinnibar]

Looking forward to Set II, the British also operated the Hellcat and the Corsair from their CVE's.

You think they'll release both? If just one, which one do you think we'll see first?

[Wasp]

You think they'll release both? If just one, which one do you think we'll see first?

My initial thought would be they release the corsair since the look will be different than the Hellcat/wildcat. However, further thought makes me think that might be the exact same reason why they release the Hellcat. All they would really have to do is change the name on the bottom of the stand. My worry about introducing the other US fighters is that the wildcat is already so powerful, that the new fighters will just break the game or will be so expensive they will be cost prohibative to use. I suppose one way around some of the problem would be to make the new fighters uncommons or rares as well. Anyway, it will be interesting to see what they do.


Wasp

[Cinnibar]

My initial thought would be they release the corsair since the look will be different than the Hellcat/wildcat. However, further thought makes me think that might be the exact same reason why they release the Hellcat. All they would really have to do is change the name on the bottom of the stand. My worry about introducing the other US fighters is that the wildcat is already so powerful, that the new fighters will just break the game or will be so expensive they will be cost prohibative to use. I suppose one way around some of the problem would be to make the new fighters uncommons or rares as well. Anyway, it will be interesting to see what they do.
Wasp

I hope they don't use rarity of units to influence parity. If the unit is unbalanced, and they make it a rare in attempt to balance it, it doesn't really help much in the long run.

[J.L.Robert]

When Zekes are already having a hard time shooting down unescorted Dauntlesses, will they be able to do anything to Helldivers or Avengers?

[Admiral Scheer]

German should be able to have land based FW-190 as battlefleet escorts. Especially since most of their engagements (at least in War At Sea) would typically be in the North Sea (land based aircraft from Norway, Germany, Holland, Denmark), or the Ocean near the coast of Spain and France (land based aircraft from France).

I saw there is FW-190 unit in the A&A Miniatures (Reserves?), but I don't know what its stats where. In either case, the FW-190 was superior to all Allied Fighters, save for the 1944 version of the P-51. :rolleyes:

['Warspite']

Looking forward to Set II, the British also operated the Hellcat and the Corsair from their CVE's.


Indeed the Royal Navy's Fleet Air Arm were the first to use the Corsair in combat from a carrier. When the Corsair was delivered to US forces the USN complained that the undercarriage was 'too lively' for deck landings and there was too much rebound.

So the first US Corsairs went to the US Marines instead who found them handy for landing on rough airstrips hacked out of the jungle.

FAA pilots had no problems with the high rebound and when reports reached the US that the British carriers were operating the Corsair at sea the whole matter was reconsidered and the Corsair finally went to sea with the USN.

['Warspite']

Are you going to paint some up in Italian colours then 'Warspite'?

Look forward to seeing them on the modelling section.:)


Certainly not! grin

I'll just wave my hand over them and call them Italian for a game!

['Warspite']

German should be able to have land based FW-190 as battlefleet escorts. Especially since most of their engagements (at least in War At Sea) would typically be in the North Sea (land based aircraft from Norway, Germany, Holland, Denmark), or the Ocean near the coast of Spain and France (land based aircraft from France).

I saw there is FW-190 unit in the A&A Miniatures (Reserves?), but I don't know what its stats where. In either case, the FW-190 was superior to all Allied Fighters, save for the 1944 version of the P-51. :rolleyes:


The game [at present] is modelled correctly as most German ships never saw a German fighter from one day to the next. The Atlantic battles were all well out of fighter range. If Bismarck had had fighter cover her story might have been very different.

The only time fighters ever made a real difference was Operation Cerberus, the Channel Dash by Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen in 1942. Even then the FW190s and Bf 109-Fs could not stop six Swordfish from dropping their torpedoes. The Swordfish was so slow that the German fighters had great difficulty engaging them. FW190 pilots were reduced to lowering their undercarriage to act as air brakes.

All six Swordfish dropped their torpedoes but were all then shot down. Only one air gunner survived out of 18 aircrew. Their leader, Eugene Esmonde, was awarded a posthumous Victoria Cross. His Swordfish took a direct hit from an AA gun on the lower wing which tore the whole wing of his biplane off. He was seen to recover the plane, and drop the torpedo, before his Swordfish cartwheeled into the sea.

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As to the FW-190's superiority... Hmmm.... There were two versions of the FW 190, essentially the short nosed ones like the A and G and the long nosed Doras. The A was a nice plane when it first came out and resulted in a special version of the Spitfire with clipped wings and a low-altitude engine.

By 1944 the short nosed As and Gs were very outdated, especially at altitude due to their radial engines, and whlle they had given the Spitfire V a nasty shock, the Spitfire IX and Spitfire XIV redressed the balance. The P51's greatest advantage was range; in combat ability it was about equal with a late Spitfire.

The long-nosed Doras were a different kettle of fish as they had a water-cooled inline engine and did not suffer at higher altitudes like the radial engined A and G models. Their increased wing span detracted from he famous fast rate of roll but it also improved their turning circle by lowering wing loading.

In the end there were simply not enough Doras and not enough pilots left to fly them really well.

[Joisey]

Indeed the Royal Navy's Fleet Air Arm were the first to use the Corsair in combat from a carrier. When the Corsair was delivered to US forces the USN complained that the undercarriage was 'too lively' for deck landings and there was too much rebound.

So the first US Corsairs went to the US Marines instead who found them handy for landing on rough airstrips hacked out of the jungle.

FAA pilots had no problems with the high rebound and when reports reached the US that the British carriers were operating the Corsair at sea the whole matter was reconsidered and the Corsair finally went to sea with the USN.

An aquaintance of mine, who served on a Gearing class DD, told me that the lack of pilot visibility convinced the navy that the Corsair could not be used for carrier operations. It was Royal Navy pilots (who, after all, were desperate for a decent carrier fighter) that figured out a way around this problem: They would approach the carrier from the side, and turn toward the deck at the last possible moment. Otherwise, there was no way to see the carrier deck past the huge "hose nose" of the Corsair.

['Warspite']

An aquaintance of mine, who served on a Gearing class DD, told me that the lack of pilot visibility convinced the navy that the Corsair could not be used for carrier operations. It was Royal Navy pilots (who, after all, were desperate for a decent carrier fighter) that figured out a way around this problem: They would approach the carrier from the side, and turn toward the deck at the last possible moment. Otherwise, there was no way to see the carrier deck past the huge "hose nose" of the Corsair.

Interesting... I had not heard that.

[Lynx7725]

Interesting... I had not heard that.
Eh? The RN "crab" is fairly well known.. Here's a short description. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F4U_Corsair#Royal_Navy) Wikipedia, yes, but it's useful for quick lookups.

[Joisey]

Eh? The RN "crab" is fairly well known.. Here's a short description. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F4U_Corsair#Royal_Navy) Wikipedia, yes, but it's useful for quick lookups.

Interesting read. This bodes ill for the destroyers in the game when Set II comes out:

"On 9 August 1945, days before the end of the war, FAA Corsairs from Formidable were attacking Shiogama harbor on the northeast coast of Japan. Canadian pilot, Lieutenant Robert Hampton Gray, was hit by flak but pressed home his attack on a Japanese destroyer, sinking it with a 450 kilogram (1,000 pound) bomb but crashing into the sea. He was posthumously awarded Canada's last Victoria Cross, becoming the second fighter pilot VC of the war as well as the final Canadian casualty of the Second World War"

[Lynx7725]

Interesting read. This bodes ill for the destroyers in the game when Set II comes out:
No surprise. Corsairs were increasingly tasked for ground support late war, with heavy (for a fighter-bomber) bomb loads and rockets. Those can do a nasty nasty job on a small ship like a destroyer, and IJN ships didn't have great AA guns -- it's a massive handicap.

If Set II does have Corsairs, it's almost inevitable that they would carry bombs or rockets (hard to live up to its name of "Sweetheart of the Marianas" without those). And 5" HVAR would do a messy number on ships.

Heck, WotC can do two versions of the Corsair -- an air superiority version, and a ground support/ anti-ship version. If you think Corsairs hunting destroyers are bad, think about them hunting Marus...

['Warspite']

My sources on the Corsair in RN service [authors William Green and others] confirm the long nose problem AND the undercarriage rebound problem as well as suggesting there was a third issue with windscreens oiling up. All were resolved to get it into RN carrier service.

[towcritter1966]

While players who wish to play historically accurate are talking about set II, can we please remember that Set I offers more than we think it does.

If an Italian player wants air support then he can field Stukas as an Italian unit. Several units of the Regia Aeronautica including the 96mo and 97mo Gruppi Bombardamento Tuffo, and the 208ma and 238ma Squadriglia used the Ju87B-1 in its tropicalised version. Rumania, Hungary and Bulgaria also used the Stuka in small numbers.

For the Royal Navy the choices are also wider than they appear.

The Royal Navy were the first to use the PBY-Catalina in combat and it was a Catalina which located the Bismarck. The RN also used Wildcats as the Grumman Martlet. An RN Martlet shot down a German bomber on December 25, 1940 while patrolling near Scapa Flow.





I agree with you on that part Warspite. In my earlier post I stated that the Axis in Europe suffered from not having any air support and it would be more appropriate to say that they had no fighter escorts. I use Kondor's in my Italian fleet and both the Stuka and the Kondor in my German fleet. Just can't wait to have some fighters to go with them.

['Warspite']

I agree with you on that part Warspite. In my earlier post I stated that the Axis in Europe suffered from not having any air support and it would be more appropriate to say that they had no fighter escorts. I use Kondor's in my Italian fleet and both the Stuka and the Kondor in my German fleet. Just can't wait to have some fighters to go with them.

To quote myself [from the previous page of this thread]

The game [at present] is modelled correctly as most German ships never saw a German fighter from one day to the next. The Atlantic battles were all well out of fighter range. If Bismarck had had fighter cover her story might have been very different.

The only time fighters ever made a real difference was Operation Cerberus, the Channel Dash by Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen in 1942. Even then the FW190s and Bf 109-Fs could not stop six Swordfish from dropping their torpedoes. The Swordfish was so slow that the German fighters had great difficulty engaging them. FW190 pilots were reduced to lowering their undercarriage to act as air brakes.

As for Kondors and Italians, I can find no situation where FW200s supported the Italians. They either operated in the Atlantic, the Arctic Circle or - bizarrely - over Stalingrad. The Atlantic group were withdrawn from maritime operations to fly supplies into Stalingrad. This may give you some idea how short of four-engined aircraft the Germans really were.

[MarcusAurelius]

As for Kondors and Italians, I can find no situation where FW200s supported the Italians. They either operated in the Atlantic, the Arctic Circle or - bizarrely - over Stalingrad. The Atlantic group were withdrawn from maritime operations to fly supplies into Stalingrad. This may give you some idea how short of four-engined aircraft the Germans really were.

I haven't seen any reference to Kondors flying in the Mediterranean theater, either. Just about everything else is fair game, though. The convoys that lifted the siege of Malta during Operation Pedestal faced an incredible array of Axis aircraft — including the Z.506, SM.79, SM.84, Ju 87 Stuka, Ju 88, Bf 109, Bf 110, CR.42, C.202 Folgore and Re.2001 Falco II.

I don't expect to see units for all these. But I expect the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica to be better represented in the next set.

['Warspite']

I haven't seen any reference to Kondors flying in the Mediterranean theater, either. Just about everything else is fair game, though. The convoys that lifted the siege of Malta during Operation Pedestal faced an incredible array of Axis aircraft — including the Z.506, SM.79, SM.84, Ju 87 Stuka, Ju 88, Bf 109, Bf 110, CR.42, C.202 Folgore and Re.2001 Falco II.


The problem with the Kondor was that it was a fragile aeroplane. Unlike other German aircraft which started life as bombers masquerading as civil aircraft, the FW200 was a real civilian aircraft which was adapted at outbreak of war due to the German shortage of four-engined aeroplanes.

As a lone wolf [no pun] out over the Atlantic it has a chance but in air-to-air combat it was very vulnerable. The aircraft was overloaded due to it's civilian history and a number actually broke in half just aft of the rear wing root, normally during landings.

[TheJudge]

FW 190 was a good plane but superior to all, save the P-51D?? I'd have to argue that the Spitfire, P-38, and P-47 Thunderbolt were all a match, if not better than the 190.

It was very limited by it's range, same as the 109 so coastal duty was very limited, the Channel Dash being the exception.

The long range Luftwaffe fighter was a Me 110 and the JU-88 fighter/bomber version. A 109 or FW 190 would be great for balancing the Wildcat but it would not be historically accurate. It is unlikely that those planes never faced each other in combat over water, anyway.

A long range JU-88 with a bomb load and decent AA rating would make me happy. An Italian naval interceptor makes a lot more sense than a German one would.