Do you support a scale change?

[Allxmen]

Do you support a scale change?

[maciej12]

If it means gettign better quality and higher detail minis then-yes. But is we get the same bent guns and other problems, then I don't see where it makes a lot of sense.

[Nalleman]

I have to say that I do not support the scale change, but I understand people who do. And WOTC has every right to change scale, even if we think that it is stupid after 5 sets.

[DarkMercy]

I'm for the scale change, for now. I'm hoping it will lead to an improved gameplay experience.

[Photoner Hawkwind]

I'm dissappointed because they could have made more vehicles at 1st edition scale that we don't yet have.

No I won't support a new scale and I will not purchase any further units from WOTC or any venders because I don't want to see different size minis of the same unit on the board at the same time.

Did I already say I was dissappointed with WOTC and their scale change?

[Cpt. John Miller]

Let's see, how can we make all of our collections totally worthless? All the money I've spent seems like a silly waste. Reset, start over, never mind that first game it was just for idiots who should know better than to trust this company anyway. If you would like to continue to enjoy this game at your LGS or the cons you had better be prepared to fork over another couple grand, suckers! HAHAHAHAHA.......five minis in a booster!

[tbopper1]

I'm all for it. I'm actuely thinking of buying AAM again. Core rules of this game were solid so i'm very intrested in seeing what they do with figure quality, sa's, and unit pricing. Hope they get it right, if not I get to save some cash.

[Photoner Hawkwind]

If you haven't bought many vehicles, then the new stuff shouldn't bother you and hopefully it will be as nice as they want it to be. It's just that I believe, even if WOTC doesn't, that most of their customers will not enjoy seeing different scale vehicles on their game boards and will be dissappointed enough to stop buying the product and then unfortunately for all the game support dies completely.

[Pasalades]

More than happy about the change. Once I have new tanks the immersion, which was breaking for me with 1st edition with big soldiers and little tanks, will be much better. I'm sitting on the sidelines for this discussion like I have have on many other 'issues'. However, I feel I should just give my 2 cents and leave it at that. This is good in the long run and I am looking forward to the possibilities that the future holds for the game. I've heard very positive things, and I can tell you in my capacity as writer that there will some good news for those who stay on board in the coming year.

[tbopper1]

Let's see, how can we make all of our collections totally worthless? All the money I've spent seems like a silly waste. Reset, start over, never mind that first game it was just for idiots who should know better than to trust this company anyway. If you would like to continue to enjoy this game at your LGS or the cons you had better be prepared to fork over another couple grand, suckers! HAHAHAHAHA.......five minis in a booster!

Not worthless. I offer you $.50 a rare sight unseen. Or I guess you could wait and see what wizards is going to call 15mm. If you are a real miniature gamer then you know aswell as I there is a huge differance in what one company calls 15mm/20mm/25mm/28mm to another. Now, it may happen you and others get shamelessly shafted and your tanks are worthless but it also may not. Wait and see is what you should do, not panic and *****.

[Greyghost]

I'm all for it. I'm actuely thinking of buying AAM again. Core rules of this game were solid so i'm very intrested in seeing what they do with figure quality, sa's, and unit pricing. Hope they get it right, if not I get to save some cash.

If you are new or have sold all your old stock, this is a wonderful opportunity to start or start over.

But, understand the people that are against the scale issue is that our army formations will look like this.

xxXxx XXxxX XxXxX

You get the picture. Yes it IS a game, Yes it IS our decision to "continue", "leave", or a variation of the game, but this came as such a surprise that most of us just don't understand the scale change (rules and gameplay atleast for me can change).

I am reallly not into esthetics but please look at the "X" formation above, it is really going to "look" very ridiculus and each piece to make it "normal" is going to cost us from $2 - $15 a piece...

[tbopper1]

If you haven't bought many vehicles, then the new stuff shouldn't bother you and hopefully it will be as nice as they want it to be. It's just that I believe, even if WOTC doesn't, that most of their customers will not enjoy seeing different scale vehicles on their game boards and will be dissappointed enough to stop buying the product and then unfortunately for all the game support dies completely.

True enough. They are taking a big chance on this. They need to run the gambit of not alienating you lot and providing something that also brings back alot of guys that folded up down the line. I'm assuming Wizards is all over this, this being bottom line cash not some debate over game mechanics but I could be wrong. Assumptions with Wizards can get you as much trouble as Custer.

[Photoner Hawkwind]

True enough. They are taking a big chance on this. They need to run the gambit of not alienating you lot and providing something that also brings back alot of guys that folded up down the line. I'm assuming Wizards is all over this, this being bottom line cash not some debate over game mechanics but I could be wrong. Assumptions with Wizards can get you as much trouble as Custer.

LOL!! Maybe WOTC never broke down the word assume.;)

[tbopper1]

If you are new or have sold all your old stock, this is a wonderful opportunity to start or start over.

But, understand the people that are against the scale issue is that our army formations will look like this.

xxXxx XXxxX XxXxX

You get the picture. Yes it IS a game, Yes it IS our decision to "continue", "leave", or a variation of the game, but this came as such a surprise that most of us just don't understand the scale change (rules and gameplay atleast for me can change).

I am reallly not into esthetics but please look at the "X" formation above, it is really going to "look" very ridiculus and each piece to make it "normal" is going to cost us from $2 - $15 a piece...

Oh I get the picture. I and others left because of absurd scales and SA's. Wait and see is what I'm saying, not the "suck it up or **** off" speach that was doled out by the faithful when set3 hit. If the scale change is drastic enough to where your tanks are useless I may not buy. That would be kinda shoddy.

[Greyghost]

Oh I get the picture. I and others left because of absurd scales and SA's. Wait and see is what I'm saying, not the "suck it up or **** off" speach that was doled out by the faithful when set3 hit. If the scale change is drastic enough to where your tanks are useless I may not buy. That would be kinda shoddy.

Wasn't targetting you and didn't want to lump sum you into all the other people that are saying that size did not matter / cost does not matter.

Waiting it out seems like the only answer (WotC is definitely just dug in).

[tbopper1]

Wasn't targetting you and didn't want to lump sum you into all the other people that are saying that size did not matter / cost does not matter.

Waiting it out seems like the only answer (WotC is definitely just dug in).

Its all good bud, well, unless they do screw everybody....then I guess it aint. Its hard for me get the proper perspective here at times. This being my first collectable mini game I forget the fact that people invest thousands into games like this. I need a board/computer game, $50. I need a FoW army, $200-$300. It ends at the purchase. Traditional miniature expense can hemorrage over time but nothing like this. I always scoff at the notion that Flames of War is more expensive than AAM. If you are prone to the buying bug FoW is much cheaper.

[shermanM4A1]

I don't like the proposed size change because most of the old tanks look fine to me (note: My gaming experience only includes Mechwarriors, AAM and AAM WAS so I don't know much about more detailed minis.)

One thing I'm wondering is whether or not they will also change the size of the map hexes to accommodate the new figures.

[shermanM4A1]

@tbopper1

Can you or someone please explain to me about how big the new proposed minis will be?

[OIFvet]

I don't like the proposed size change because most of the old tanks look fine to me (note: My gaming experience only includes Mechwarriors, AAM and AAM WAS so I don't know much about more detailed minis.)

One thing I'm wondering is whether or not they will also change the size of the map hexes to accommodate the new figures.

The maps in the extended rules and the new starter sets will be using 3" hexes instead of the traditional 2" hexes.

[EricM 2404]

More than happy about the change. Once I have new tanks the immersion, which was breaking for me with 1st edition with big soldiers and little tanks, will be much better. I'm sitting on the sidelines for this discussion like I have have on many other 'issues'. However, I feel I should just give my 2 cents and leave it at that. This is good in the long run and I am looking forward to the possibilities that the future holds for the game. I've heard very positive things, and I can tell you in my capacity as writer that there will some good news for those who stay on board in the coming year.

well if he supports the change then it must be good. I suppose since half of my collection is soldiers I only need a few vehicles for things to look alright.

I am upset by this, but I suppose it is like gambling, you have to be willing to except losing every now and then.

[Jesse_James]

I am surprised at the results right now. Only 48 % said no? :confused:


I would have thought it would have been 90% range. :rolleyes:

As long as you have fun I guess.

[Uncle_Joe]

Its still a pretty small sample either way. And honestly, almost any poll should have a 'throwaway' option (something unrelated and usually silly to weed out the sometimes many people who vote just to vote and often skew the results).

Something like:

Do you support a scale change?

1) Yes, I do
2) No, I dont
3) Blowing things up is cool!

[Jesse_James]

Its still a pretty small sample either way. And honestly, almost any poll should have a 'throwaway' option (something unrelated and usually silly to weed out the sometimes many people who vote just to vote and often skew the results).

Something like:

Do you support a scale change?

1) Yes, I do
2) No, I dont
3) Blowing things up is cool!

I was thinking more of the lines of

Yes.
No.
Pancakes.

I am in the mood for some right now. Yummmmmmmm.

[FSSF]

I would have liked to know who voted for what.
Why can't we see that in the results?

I would have liked to know if those who voted for the scale change were mainly new players, for example.

[tbopper1]

@tbopper1

Can you or someone please explain to me about how big the new proposed minis will be?

All I know is that 15mm is what Wizards said. Now, having collected 15mm ancients, medievil, and WW2 metal minni's from various companys. My experiance is that the size of minni's varies greatly from company to company even when they are supposed to be of the same scale. Also, plastic molds are very expensive to create, actuall production of the figs is cheap. Since the only idea I see behind the 1939-1945 set is to sell us stuff we already have (not to mention they already have the molds for) I'm thinking thier scale change will not be that drastic. Most of the existing tanks are in scale with each other so I'm thinking the change will be small. Hope thats the way it goes.

[Rognar65]

I've invested quite a bit in the game so far, so a scale change is a major nuisance for me. I also have a history of simply abandoning a game when changes like this occur. I used to collect Star Wars minis until they brought out "Alliance and Empire" which had different bases. Since my current AAM collection is pretty near complete, I will probably not buy any figures in the new scale.....unless the quality is vastly improved.

[horacus]

I'm dissappointed because they could have made more vehicles at 1st edition scale that we don't yet have.

No I won't support a new scale and I will not purchase any further units from WOTC or any venders because I don't want to see different size minis of the same unit on the board at the same time.

Did I already say I was dissappointed with WOTC and their scale change?

I agree with that totally.

[J.L.Robert]

I would have liked to know who voted for what.
Why can't we see that in the results?

I would have liked to know if those who voted for the scale change were mainly new players, for example.

For what it's worth, I voted "I do not care"

[Photoner Hawkwind]

I was thinking more of the lines of

Yes.
No.
Pancakes.

I am in the mood for some right now. Yummmmmmmm.

Hey, I'll meet you at IHOP!:D

Or are there any back east?:eek:

[Photoner Hawkwind]

well if he supports the change then it must be good. I suppose since half of my collection is soldiers I only need a few vehicles for things to look alright.

I am upset by this, but I suppose it is like gambling, you have to be willing to except losing every now and then.

Only in the game!;)

[Photoner Hawkwind]

I am surprised at the results right now. Only 48 % said no? :confused:


I would have thought it would have been 90% range. :rolleyes:

As long as you have fun I guess.

I think WOTC is hoping it will only be half of that.

[Lotus]

Does it matter? They're going ahead w/ it...went ahead w/ it long before any of us knew.

I'm staying in...but my support or lack of it is hardly an issue.

[Photoner Hawkwind]

Does it matter? They're going ahead w/ it...went ahead w/ it long before any of us knew.

I'm staying in...but my support or lack of it is hardly an issue.

Lack of it eventually could be an issue because others have already guessed and I will go along with their guess that the change of scale may be due to low sales in set V which is a show of lack of support by customers.

Even if some of us hard core regulars made our usual 4 case preorders of set V.

[Ubergeek]

Um, this is right out of the rulebook:

Scale
The Axis & Allies Miniatures game uses the following scales.
Miniatures: 15mm, or 1/120.
Vehicles: Each Vehicle miniature represents 1 vehicle.
Soldiers: Each Soldier miniature usually represents several soldiers.
Map: 1 hex is about 100m, or about 1/2000.
Turn: 1 turn is about 1 minute.

So what's the big deal about them announcing that the minis will be 15mm scale? They've been 15mm since the start. Granted some have been out scale with the majority of the set but for the most part, the current figures are 15mm (with the exception of aircraft). They are right in between the size of 1/100 and 1/144 units that I have from other games. Mini scaling is approximately as follows and can have variations from hobby to hobby:

1/160=12mm N-Gauge RR, ToI, M44,
1/144=14mm N + - Dragon/Can.do Series, World Tank Campaign.
1/120=15mm 15/32 TT U.S., AA:Minis (per the manual).
1/106=16mm . . . ???
1/100=18mm TT English Small Scale - usually 1.5 inches or less, FoW

Even if units change size due to corrections, they shouldn't be on the scale of a step up to 1/100 or down to 1/144 size so the unit size changes should be minimal if any at all.

Of course we'll need to see the side-by-side comparisons to see the extent of any size change, if AH will ever post them.

[polish_horsy]

you'll see less and less negative response here. In part because those who are p-ssed off about it will leave or not bother checking in very much.

[Richter von Manthofen]

As it stands now around 56% don't support the change

It that translates into buyers it would mean that more than half the AAM customers say goodbye - And I bet its us who bought over average numbers.. so its mor 60-75% of the purchasing power...

Seems they try to kill the game as I don't expect thta many FOW gamers jumping the AAM train...

[husker80]

The more I think about it, the more I don't care. I have PLENTY of units to field a game of any reasonable size, including those I haven't even played with. In other words, I don't really need more so a size change won't make a difference. PLUS I have other games that are feeling neglected - I can't be married to A&AM exclusively!

[TheJudge]

Let's see, how can we make all of our collections totally worthless? All the money I've spent seems like a silly waste. Reset, start over, never mind that first game it was just for idiots who should know better than to trust this company anyway. If you would like to continue to enjoy this game at your LGS or the cons you had better be prepared to fork over another couple grand, suckers! HAHAHAHAHA.......five minis in a booster!

This is the exact attitude that just makes me cackle.

How are your minis worthless???

You still own them right? They didn't get lost in a flood or melted did they? Of course not. You can still continue playing for the rest of your life with the minis you have. Nobody is putting a gun to your head and telling you that you have to buy the new ones. What you might want is the long awaited US and Russian MG teams that HAVE NOT changed scale and some other stuff, all of which you will be able to buy on ebay for cheap. All of your old tanks are fine. If you want more detail, send them to panzer painter for upgrading.

Otherwise, you haven't lost anything!

This is the attitude that I just can't understand, that people somehow think it's WOTC's fault that YOU spent money on a game. Things change, WOTC is going to do what is in their own best interest, why does this shock anyone? The clueless out there who think they should exchange the old minis for new ones are off their rocker. I think it's hilarious. Don't like it, don't buy it! Simple, easy and guilt free.

Bottom line, none of us has lost a thing. You still have hundreds or thousands of minis and can play until you keel over and you may also used advanced rules, house rules, douche rules, whatever you want. The power is, has been, and always will be in our hands.

[polish_horsy]

This is the exact attitude that just makes me cackle.

How are your minis worthless???

You still own them right? They didn't get lost in a flood or melted did they? Of course not. You can still continue playing for the rest of your life with the minis you have. Nobody is putting a gun to your head and telling you that you have to buy the new ones. What you might want is the long awaited US and Russian MG teams that HAVE NOT changed scale and some other stuff, all of which you will be able to buy on ebay for cheap. All of your old tanks are fine. If you want more detail, send them to panzer painter for upgrading.

Otherwise, you haven't lost anything!

This is the attitude that I just can't understand, that people somehow think it's WOTC's fault that YOU spent money on a game. Things change, WOTC is going to do what is in their own best interest, why does this shock anyone? The clueless out there who think they should exchange the old minis for new ones are off their rocker. I think it's hilarious. Don't like it, don't buy it! Simple, easy and guilt free.

Bottom line, none of us has lost a thing. You still have hundreds or thousands of minis and can play until you keel over and you may also used advanced rules, house rules, douche rules, whatever you want. The power is, has been, and always will be in our hands.

Well I think you have to respect that people were told to expect that there would be 2 releases in 2007. It was a reasonable expectation that they would be to the same scale that was being used and listed in the rulebook.

What we have lost is any future building upon the existing vehicle scale. Therefore we have lost any potential to have a completed set. Therefore the existing units are devalued in that they will forever be an incomplete line of production.

If you can't recognize that I don't think you are honestly trying very hard to see the other side. You can call people clueless or whatever but I really think you should try a bit harder to see the other side of the coin before you start flinging names at folks who feel cheated and feel they now have devalued product.

[Imperious leader]

AS long as they keep getting smaller with every new AA miniatures product... so eventually i can use them for the boardgame version just as pieces... then that will be great.

[TheJudge]

Again, that is a choice that YOU make.

Last I checked, WOTC released 5 sets of A&AM so nothing is incomplete.

You have the choice to buy the new stuff or take your ball and go home.

If WOTC said tomorrow that they were done with A&AM, then what? People would be all upset because they never got their US MG team and flame throwing Sherman tank??? Give me a break.

Two things you can always count on in gaming is that:

1) The company(whoever it is) will always do what is in their best interest.

2) There will always be consumers who feel they are owed something by said company.

If you don't understand that, hey, not my problem and it certainly isn't WOTC's problem either. They make a decision that they feel is in their best interest, they know it will upset some people but as in every one of these polls that you guys run, you think we are the only people who play these games? Simply not true, for every one of us on here, there are 10 guys buying A&A who don't answer these polls and spend as much or more than we do and they just play to play. If they change the scale, they aren't going to just throw their old minis in the garbage can or sell them, they can still play the game and even add to it, that's the real point you're missing. If anything, now is the BEST time to buy stuff because it is cheap, I've sold 75% of my collection and am considering buying it back at like half the price only 45 days later! Lucky me I guess.

You can feel cheated if you want I guess, that's an option, but a pretty negative one under the circumstances. It's kind of like buying a car in 2006 and then the 2007 model comes out and looks a lot better and you feel like a tard or you can still enjoy your car. I suppose it depends on if you attach positive meaning or negative meaning to it.

[polish_horsy]

"AS long as they keep getting smaller with every new AA miniatures product... so eventually i can use them for the boardgame version just as pieces... then that will be great."


well since they are getting bigger and more expensive I'm guessing you will not be so hot on on the new pieces.

[Sheppard1972]

How do we (WotC) keep the cash cow going? Ext. of WotC stands up and says, "I know let's change the scale of the vehicles and say that it is to correct the incorrect scaling and sell the same vehicles over again". Pats on the backs all around. Money rolls in. Sorry negative reaction on my part but I don't buy it.:( The group I play with is not happy and some are talking about selling their pieces off and others are going to keep the pieces they have and keep playing with them.:(

[TheJudge]

How do we (WotC) keep the cash cow going? Ext. of WotC stands up and says, "I know let's change the scale of the vehicles and say that it is to correct the incorrect scaling and sell the same vehicles over again". Pats on the backs all around. Money rolls in. Sorry negative reaction on my part but I don't buy it.:( The group I play with is not happy and some are talking about selling their pieces off and others are going to keep the pieces they have and keep playing with them.:(

Yet again, that is an unnecessary assumption. The guys who are keeing their stuff and will continue playing the game will be having all the fun while the ones who seel will show up at game night asking to borrow stuff so they can play. Hmmm....I guess that's an option to until those pals get tired of lending out stuff to someone who sold his.

Or, you can buy FOW and paint everything and start all over.

I just can't wrap my mind around being all ****** off about something that doesn't effect someone's collection. At all. The good news is you don't have to buy anymore tanks or vehicles!! That sounds like a money saving option to me.

Whatever, I'm beating a dead horse, if you're insistent on being upset and selling everything, fine but coming on here everyday to make sure you respond to every post and keep trying to convince others that YOU are right seems like wasted time and energy. Move on. What a bunch of clutter these threads are.

[TomServo]

Whatever, I'm beating a dead horse, if you're insistent on being upset and selling everything, fine but coming on here everyday to make sure you respond to every post and keep trying to convince others that YOU are right seems like wasted time and energy. Move on. What a bunch of clutter these threads are.


Umm...isn't that the kettle calling the pot black? You seem to be adding to the clutter yourself. Honestly...if you don't like what's being said on a thread or post...don't read it.

[polish_horsy]

Last I checked, WOTC released 5 sets of A&AM so nothing is incomplete.



yeah ok if you say so. I remeber reading about Matildas and I recall something about trucks and I think I heard about a Wespe and other thingies in the war. maybe it was a dream and I actualy DO have all the vehicles that fought in the war.

come to think of it... it's rather amazing the Italians lasted as long as they did in the war. with only 2 vehicles to chose from I'd think they would have lost much sooner. especially considering one of them has no real fighting ability and the other is explosive.

[shadowhooch]

How do we (WotC) keep the cash cow going? Ext. of WotC stands up and says, "I know let's change the scale of the vehicles and say that it is to correct the incorrect scaling and sell the same vehicles over again". Pats on the backs all around. Money rolls in. Sorry negative reaction on my part but I don't buy it.:( The group I play with is not happy and some are talking about selling their pieces off and others are going to keep the pieces they have and keep playing with them.:(

Here's how I see it going down at the WotC staff meeting:

"So our sales of AAM have been declining; but we all believe this is a great product and idea. Obviously, our first time around we didn't identify our target market well enough and didn't do a good job executing the game to their satisfaction. So how do we fix this?
We won't reach all of our customers by simply providing new costs and abilities on our website to fix the game because most of our customers are not online. Nor would we get any extra income or sales from that solution. Also, our current customers would be less inclined to buy re-releases of statistical corrected pieces that they already have.
So, our only solution to keep this game as an ongoing and viable money maker for our company is to essentially start over and do it "right". The only way to do this is to change the scale of the vehicles in conjuction with the statistical corrections to entice our customers to purchase the sets instead of simply downloading the new cards from the internet. We will pick a scale that will allow us to put out a more consistent and quality product, be more in scale with our soldier pieces, and that will be compatible with other games.

It's either this or simply stop the line because AAM is not making a good enough return on investment.....but we all believe it could."

Well at least that is how I HOPE it went down. If you're scenario is more accurate....then I truly would be ticked. But I doubt they are doing anything intentionally malicious with this scale change. I simply see it as a way to enduce a purchase of the new fixes instead of us "hijacking" them. WotC is, after all, in this to make money. But at the same time, I truly believe they want to put out a good product as it is to the company's benefit in the long run.

[Bobsalt]

"So our sales of AAM have been declining; but we all believe this is a great product and idea. Obviously, our first time around we didn't identify our target market well enough and didn't do a good job executing the game to their satisfaction. So how do we fix this?
We won't reach all of our customers by simply providing new costs and abilities on our website to fix the game because most of our customers are not online. Nor would we get any extra income or sales from that solution. Also, our current customers would be less inclined to buy re-releases of statistical corrected pieces that they already have.
So, our only solution to keep this game as an ongoing and viable money maker for our company is to essentially start over and do it "right". The only way to do this is to change the scale of the vehicles in conjuction with the statistical corrections to entice our customers to purchase the sets instead of simply downloading the new cards from the internet. We will pick a scale that will allow us to put out a more consistent and quality product, be more in scale with our soldier pieces, and that will be compatible with other games.

It's either this or simply stop the line because AAM is not making a good enough return on investment.....but we all believe it could."
My thoughts on this are about the same as yours; I think this is probably a fairly accurate projection of why they are making this change.

[TheJudge]

You guys are pretty funny. I read this crap because I was curious to see how people felt about the scale change so don't tell me what to read and what not to read but what it has turned into is a turd throwing contest by a few people who claim that they are upset about the scale change so I respond by saying that there is a better way to feel about it, you can still play, blah, blah, blah and I just realized that if someone would get that upset about it to post constantly on any thread where someone will listen that they certainly aren't going to be reasoned with by a guy like me. Silly me.

I've quit playing games before because I didn't like what the company did and made way to much out of the politics and I wasn't having a good time so I know where you're coming from but I say very simply that while you feel your collection has become worthless, the company has betrayed you, stabbed you in the back, whatever, nothing could be further from the truth. So, you didn't get your Matilda tank? BFD You're going to let that spoil your fun. like they did it to you on purpose? Wow.....and people call me a complainer. :D

I guess if you try hard enough, you could come up with enough units that they haven't made to work yourself into a frenzy. Matilda, DUKW, Flame throwing Sherman, Flame throwing T-34, Im sure there are others like stupid trucks and kubelwagens. :P

I know where I stand, I have enough stuff left to play when I feel like it and have fun doing it, I don't care what the scale is. You do care obviously. You seem very upset and defensive and somehow robbed by the company you spent so much money with.

How's that workin for ya?

[Uncle_Joe]

"So our sales of AAM have been declining; but we all believe this is a great product and idea. Obviously, our first time around we didn't identify our target market well enough and didn't do a good job executing the game to their satisfaction. So how do we fix this?
We won't reach all of our customers by simply providing new costs and abilities on our website to fix the game because most of our customers are not online. Nor would we get any extra income or sales from that solution. Also, our current customers would be less inclined to buy re-releases of statistical corrected pieces that they already have.
So, our only solution to keep this game as an ongoing and viable money maker for our company is to essentially start over and do it "right". The only way to do this is to change the scale of the vehicles in conjuction with the statistical corrections to entice our customers to purchase the sets instead of simply downloading the new cards from the internet. We will pick a scale that will allow us to put out a more consistent and quality product, be more in scale with our soldier pieces, and that will be compatible with other games.

It's either this or simply stop the line because AAM is not making a good enough return on investment.....but we all believe it could."

If its 'just' the scale change and a re-dedication to quality with less emphasis on the 'gamey' side of making a CMG, then I'm all for it. But if your interpretation is correct, its not a huge leap of logic to see that the eventual plan would be to obsolete the old minis in general (Infantry and all), not because of scale, but because they want to 'revise' things.

And to me, that would be unacceptable. I *dont* want to be recollecting the basic building blocks anymore. I dont want to be buy 'new' Mausers and 'new' Garands or leaders or MGs or anything that has been already released just because they want to tweak a few stats or SAs. That not only is wasteful in terms of money, but wasteful in terms of taking up slots in the new sets that could be used for units we DONT already have.

I can understand perhaps wanting to take a different tack going forward and the new minis are a step in that direction. But trying to push the 'Reset Button' now would be a complete screw IMO. The only way I personally would accept such a change would be that if the new sets were accompanied by revised cards (online or available as a separate purchase at a reasonable price) for all of the old minis to allow us to 'bring them up to speed'.

One of the primary reasons I invested in this game after being burned by some of the 'clix' games and CCGs was that I always felt that pieces were 'upgradeable'. If new rules came out, it wasnt like the stats were on the pieces themselves, so it would be a simple matter to issue new cards and then keep going. But if they decided that they are going to orphan the old stuff and re-issue replacement units that I have to re-buy, then I believe it would indeed be for the 'money-making' grab that others are accusing WotC of. There is no good reason to abandon the old minis other than to force people to re-purchase what they have already bought. If they want to make sweeping changes to the game, so be it, but keep the old minis up to date...dont simply replace them!

All that said, I obviously have no direct evidence that they have any such plans. But looking at the history of similar types of games, its certainly not beyond the realm of possibility. And any continued silence from WotC will probably not be a good sign IMO (heck if it were me, I'd be going out of my way to squelch untrue rumors ASAP to minimize the spread of potentially damaging false info. I sure wouldnt be waiting a week and change or more diddling around!). IMO, it would take less that 15 minutes to post some info to try and keep the record straight. Something along the lines of:

"We know our customers have had some concerns about the future of the A&AM product line. Going forward, we wish to assure everyone that while we might be changing the scale slightly and changing our focus to a more historical line, rest assured that all of the old minis will still be fully supported. We will be re-issuing a few of the previous units with new abilities and new appearances, but they will in no way 'replace' your existing collections."

If they do intend to push the 'reset button', then a quick blurb to that effect would be great too. At least then we KNOW. And knowing is half the battle.... :p :p :p

[shadowhooch]

Regarding UJ's comments.....

Well, this next set is a complete re-release of previous units. So I don't see why they would re-release units unless they changed the stats or SAs. What would be the point? Simply to get the same stuff at a different scale? I know I wouldn't buy that. Why would I?

So, they've GOT to be changing the stats or SAs or costs along with the scale. Does that mean your previous units are obsolete? Not at all. Feel free to use them and their old stats and costs. WotC has already said you could.

Will this make the new units better or worse than the old? I doubt they'd make many, if any, units worse. Probably most will be better to make more units playable. They have already expressed their displeasure that not as many units are playable as they desired (hence the platoons).

Does this indirectly obsolete your older units? Sure. But what is stopping you from getting the "revised" stats and applying them to your old units. You don't need WotC to provide a pdf. I'm positive someone on the boards will provide the new card information and probably create neat cards too.

So unless you are a player in a very uptight tournament environment, you can still use all of your old stuff and they'll probably even let you use the "revised" stats. Most of us play at home anyway. So you really don't need to buy the new stuff if you are happy with the old and have enough. You can just hijack the stats.

I think that's why the DID decide to change the scale - so you actually DO have motivation to rebuy the corrected versions and continue on with future expansions.

[Moderator Kayn]

You guys are not sticking to the point of the thread.

This is what we meant when we said the new threads just offer a place for the same posts to be repeated.

If the thread doesnt go back on topic, it will end up closed.

Thanks,
Mod Kayn

[FSSF]

And the fact that the poll doesn't make WOTC look good has nothing to do about that either hey?
More than 50% of posters being against the scale change...
I think this is the most important poll that board has had in a long time.

[Uncle_Joe]

Well, this next set is a complete re-release of previous units. So I don't see why they would re-release units unless they changed the stats or SAs. What would be the point? Simply to get the same stuff at a different scale? I know I wouldn't buy that. Why would I?

Again, which is why I think more information would be greatly appreciated. When I first saw the set announced, my impression was that it would be a 're-issuing' of sorts to try and get new players in (its pretty daunting to have to go back and try and collect the 'base' unit from 5 sets ago). So, I expected Mausers and Bazooka and SS-Haupts etc etc. I expected them to have the same stats and SAs...basically being 're-printed' so that newer players can get them easily to lower the barrier to entry going forward.

Sprinkled in with those re-issues, I also expected to see some different minis as well...like the Command Tanks and perhaps US/Sov MGs as well. That way the old players have something to gain as well, even if only through singles. But my impression was that the overall goal of '39-45' was to be more or less a 'greatest hits' set, not a complete reset of the game with new stats and new rules that moves the game beyond the old pieces.

So, they've GOT to be changing the stats or SAs or costs along with the scale. Does that mean your previous units are obsolete? Not at all. Feel free to use them and their old stats and costs. WotC has already said you could.

WizKids said the exact same thing with Mage Knight and it turned out to not be true. Heck I can pull out my ASL pieces and mix those with A&AM if I really want to (hmmm, maybe I can get my trucks that way! ;) ). But thats not the same thing as continuing to 'support' the old mins. I dont want to be playing at some massive advantage or disadvantage if using the old minis/stats vs the new. I personally would like the game to move forward, not drop back 3 steps and re-invent the wheel.

So unless you are a player in a very uptight tournament environment, you can still use all of your old stuff and they'll probably even let you use the "revised" stats.

Potentially so, and thats the info I'm after. But again, if I want 'stats' that dont match the minis, I can do that NOW. But to me, that is the same as using 'proxies' which I am loathe to do (and which is certainly not something I see that WotC should be encouraging). For example, if I have a unit that is supposed to be unit 'x', I want it to BE unit 'x'. I dont want to have to use my old guys and say 'OK, for this game, pretend all my old Mausers are unit 'x''. If I was interested in doing that, I would have stopped buying the new sets of A&AM long ago....after all, I can just use my Garands and call them 'Rangers' and I can use my Panzergrenadiers and call them WermVet Inf...no need to actually get the correct figures once you start down that path.

All of this could be completely unfounded fears. The scale change could be miniscule and the rules/minis might be 100% compatible, building on the old sets as we all expected. Or it could be huge dramatic change and an ushering in of A&AM 2.0 as well. And it could fall anywhere in between. My guess is that its the last option and that we will be left on somewhat nebulous ground. Sure, you can use your old stuff but..............

[shadowhooch]

You guys are not sticking to the point of the thread.

This is what we meant when we said the new threads just offer a place for the same posts to be repeated.

If the thread doesnt go back on topic, it will end up closed.

Thanks,
Mod Kayn

Reminds me of a famous movie quote:

Gold Five (us): "It's no good down here, I can't maneuver!"
Gold Leader (Mod Kayne): "Stay on target."
Gold Five (us): "We're too close!"
Gold Leader (Mod Kayne): "Stay on target!"
Gold Five (us): [shouts] "Loosen up!"

PKSSHHHHH!!!!!! We explode! (aka thread is closed).:D

Boy was this post off topic! But hey, it's all about us being entertained and informed right? C'mon, the boards haven't been this fun in quite some time. ;)

"No worries mate!" -- in rememberance of Steve Irwin.

[Allxmen]

You guys are not sticking to the point of the thread.

This is what we meant when we said the new threads just offer a place for the same posts to be repeated.

If the thread doesnt go back on topic, it will end up closed.

Thanks,
Mod Kayn


July 2, 2007

Whoa, whoa. I started this thread. Please do not close my thread. I feel the people who have posted thus far provide valuable insight, and a good indication, as to whether or not scale is an issue to them. Yes, sometimes thoughts are divergent and even tangential but as the person who initiated this thread, I would rather hear some voices that are irrelevant and off topic than to quash one that directly answers the issue of the day.

Please do not cancel my thread.

-Allxmen

[DocD]

You can feel cheated if you want I guess, that's an option, but a pretty negative one under the circumstances. It's kind of like buying a car in 2006 and then the 2007 model comes out and looks a lot better and you feel like a tard or you can still enjoy your car. I suppose it depends on if you attach positive meaning or negative meaning to it.

This is why people hate people complaining about people complaining. This Car analogy is dumb.

It's not that the car producer has just came out with a new 2007 model, but has also stated it wouldn't be selling any PARTS for the 2006 model.

That's how I feel. No new parts!!!! Yeah I can enjoy my shiny new 2006 for a while, but what happens when I need a U-joint, or shocks, or whatever else. I don't see how anybody can be happy knowing they will have to update their car only after a couple of years because the company isn't going to support the future of your car.

[horacus]

And the fact that the poll doesn't make WOTC look good has nothing to do about that either hey?
More than 50% of posters being against the scale change...
I think this is the most important poll that board has had in a long time.

I agree, this poll is important. I'm against to the scale change, but for the improvement of the gameplay.

[boersma8]

Here's how I see it going down at the WotC staff meeting:

"So our sales of AAM have been declining; but we all believe this is a great product and idea. Obviously, our first time around we didn't identify our target market well enough and didn't do a good job executing the game to their satisfaction. So how do we fix this?
We won't reach all of our customers by simply providing new costs and abilities on our website to fix the game because most of our customers are not online. Nor would we get any extra income or sales from that solution. Also, our current customers would be less inclined to buy re-releases of statistical corrected pieces that they already have.
So, our only solution to keep this game as an ongoing and viable money maker for our company is to essentially start over and do it "right". The only way to do this is to change the scale of the vehicles in conjuction with the statistical corrections to entice our customers to purchase the sets instead of simply downloading the new cards from the internet. We will pick a scale that will allow us to put out a more consistent and quality product, be more in scale with our soldier pieces, and that will be compatible with other games.

It's either this or simply stop the line because AAM is not making a good enough return on investment.....but we all believe it could."

Well at least that is how I HOPE it went down. If you're scenario is more accurate....then I truly would be ticked. But I doubt they are doing anything intentionally malicious with this scale change. I simply see it as a way to enduce a purchase of the new fixes instead of us "hijacking" them. WotC is, after all, in this to make money. But at the same time, I truly believe they want to put out a good product as it is to the company's benefit in the long run.

Yeah, this does seem to make a lot of sense! Still doesn't mean I'm too happy about it ( way too much money invested in the hopes of getting a " complete" set with as many units as possible that fought during WW 2 IN THE SAME SCALE!). All I can do now is hope that they actually DID get the stats, SA's and costs etc. right this time. Maybe I'm cynical, I don't know, but I'm rather pessimistic about WoTC getting things " right" this time....When have they gotten things right so far??????

[boersma8]

What I've been wondering about from the moment I heard the 39-45 set was going to be released is why would they include Mausers, bazookas and the like. It's not like there is much wrong with said units! It had to be a greatest hits of AAM! Sure, WoTC might reason: " we need to re-do the Mausers and Garands, because everyone is only playing 5/5's...." Once again, that would be exactly the wrong thing to do! It's not that the mausers aren't realistic in their capabilities; it's the 5/5's that are too good! If they (hypothetically) give the Mausers and their next of kin an extra attack die and decrease its cost to 2, would that solve anything??? ( new stats, looks and abilities???). If they left it the way it is, why include it in the set??? This really HAS TO BE a re-release of figures we already have!!!

[smo63]

Yeah,

Don't drop the thread...it is important. Though I really don't think it is going to change the change that will occur, it is important that hopefully someone at the big house is reading these and taking notes...

Thanks Allxmen for the post.

Oh, and guys, don't forget about the Mini Slugfest at Origins. We are using all original pieces, so come and get your fix while you can...

Peace,
GS:)

[Allxmen]

Thanks for the support in this post. I hate to see them quash opposition to the proposed scale change. So far, the poll has been pretty telling. Over 50% of the participants are opposed to the change in scale.

Interestingly, half of the poll selections are “yes” answers. One showing full support and another showing some support. And yet even with degrees of support (as opposed to a cold yes or no poll), over 50% of the participants have said they do not support a change.

To Wizards, please do not pull this thread and/or poll. Please do not penalize all of us for the rantings of a few. Please do not censor what subject matter you disagree with.

Wizards could look at this in a different light. Out of the participants in this poll, over half do not like a change. Wizards should be so proud as to have created such interest in their original product. And I dare say, over half want the product to remain the same. I don’t want to read into what other “no” voters want, BUT, its pretty clear that MANY of the poll takers DO NOT want a change.

Finally, I understand that by posting this response, that some of what I have said may be lost in the translation. And just so it is clear to everyone, I like Axis & Allies minis, and I want the scale to remain the same.

Hopefully, I will see many of you at the Origins slugfest.

[Richter von Manthofen]

It seems around 30% support the scale change - over 50% do NOT support it

As a statistican It is clear that this is a significant sample (over 100 voters is pretty good) to make the conclusion that there are more against than for it

[J.L.Robert]

It seems around 30% support the scale change - over 50% do NOT support it

As a statistican It is clear that this is a significant sample (over 100 voters is pretty good) to make the conclusion that there are more against than for it

Your presupposition is flawed. The message boards are an insufficient sample of AAM players globally, and that a greater percentage of dissatisfied people are participating than those who are content, or do not wish to participate in the debate, as is the nature of a vocal minority/silent majority situation.

But again, WotC winds up in a lose-lose situation with those unhappy. If they're in the majority, WotC doesn't care about its customers and is acting arbitrarily in a money grab. If they're in the minority, WotC doesn't care about its customers and is willing to toss them aside for the next wave of consumers. There's simply no pleasing some of you (and I'm singling out nobody). And I think they've figured THAT MUCH out.

[Richter von Manthofen]

He is right insofar as disappointed people are more vocal than content.

But the sample of the poll is quite good - sure its only board memeber, but on the other hand as it looks that the fans here on the boards are "over the average" buyers...

I also spoke with friends which are NOT board members (3) and ALL are quite disappointed: play with old pieces no new sort of

Maybe the better poll was:

Should a scale change be done? yes - no - no opinion

[smo63]

but any how, regarding the scale of the mini's. Do you think that WotC would every think about changing the size of Magic Cards? And then making the new cards official. Almost as bad as making Type I and Type II decks...?

As long as people keep buying the product, they will change it to make more. Look at MLB. There was a walkout in Pittsburgh the other day because the Pirates have stunk for so long and it seems nothing is ever done to improve the team. The numbers that left during the game were minimal and most of those returned.

This goes to show that If the costomers keep on buying the product regardless of the outcome, there is, unfortunetly, little to nothing any of us can do except vent...

Peace,
GS:)

[Moderator Kayn]

The deleted posts would fit in fine on the other thread... but to keep _this_ thread open you need to stick to the topic of the poll.

Thanks
Mod Kayn

[horacus]

You're kidding, right?

I think he's not...

[J.L.Robert]

You're kidding, right?

Do you really think EVERYONE participates in these polls?

Of course unhappy people will be more likely to vote. There's more of a personal incentive to voice displeasure than to speak indifferently. There are likely a large number of people where this isn't an issue...what's their need to participate?

Not everyone's getting their panties all up in a bunch over this. It's just those who feel the need to make their voice heard who are the ones voting. That would include most of those who are unhappy, and a significantly smaller percentage of people who are happy with the direction this game is heading, and almost all who are indifferent.

[J.L.Robert]

Should a scale change be done? yes - no - no opinion

Perhaps a year ago. But we're far past that point now. :(

[Lotus]

Do you really think EVERYONE participates in these polls?

Of course unhappy people will be more likely to vote. There's more of a personal incentive to voice displeasure than to speak indifferently. There are likely a large number of people where this isn't an issue...what's their need to participate?

Not everyone's getting their panties all up in a bunch over this. It's just those who feel the need to make their voice heard who are the ones voting. That would include most of those who are unhappy, and a significantly smaller percentage of people who are happy with the direction this game is heading, and almost all who are indifferent.

I did not vote.

If voting could change the outcome, then I might. It won't, so I'd rather move forward in a positive light.

I strongly advocate focusing efforts where they can actually make a difference, like asking for a special, limited time, transitional price on the 1939-45 Starter Set. Maybe if WoTC knew they could keep more of their old customers this way, they might consider it.

[Jesse_James]

I did not vote.

If voting could change the outcome, then I might. It won't, so I'd rather move forward in a positive light.

I strongly advocate focusing efforts where they can actually make a difference, like asking for a special, limited time, transitional price on the 1939-45 Starter Set. Maybe if WoTC knew they could keep more of their old customers this way, they might consider it.

Same here. My thought/opinions will mean crap to the company. I can dress up in a monkey suit with a peace maker in one hand a sign in the other had that reads "Don't change the scale" while jumping outside in front of wizards HQ. And they still won't do a thing.

The best thing to do is just try to look for any positive things out of this. Despite the fact this choice is pathetic.

My personal choice would have been release the 1939-1945 set in october, keeping the scale the same. Release the hellcat, spitfire, p-51, 3" AT gun, the burger-mobile, (and what ever else I am missing) in corrected format. Announce to players that the following month they have the option to trade in the crap minis from previous sets with the new minis + shipping.

This could have given the company a new large fan base, and better loyalty.

But thats not how it worked out. So ignore this post. :rolleyes:

[J.L.Robert]

I did not vote.

If voting could change the outcome, then I might. It won't, so I'd rather move forward in a positive light.

I strongly advocate focusing efforts where they can actually make a difference, like asking for a special, limited time, transitional price on the 1939-45 Starter Set. Maybe if WoTC knew they could keep more of their old customers this way, they might consider it.


This is actually a rather sensible mindset. I'm glad that not everyone is flying off the handle.

[komichido]

BTW where did you get the information about our panties.....?

Mine don't bunch....they are in the right scale and I don't plan to change them!:)

Komi

[J.L.Robert]

BTW where did you get the information about our panties.....?

Mine don't bunch....they are in the right scale and I don't plan to change them!:)

Komi

I'd suggest changing them at least ONCE in a while... :eek:

[komichido]

panties or scale?:rolleyes:

[OIFvet]

panties or scale?:rolleyes:

Both.... :p

Change can be a very good and very healthy thing

[Tyree67]

I voted to, but it's just like in life we voted on something we couldn't change, Lke a crooked government, Taxes on Beer and a smoking law in Ohio. LOL.

[Richter von Manthofen]

To all non voters: Please vote - True it will change nothing, but it will give an accurate picture.

And like in real life: If you don't vote because you are happy as it is - don't be surprised if it changes...

[Allxmen]

The poll has closed. It has been very telling. 29% say yes. 57% say no. 14% don't care.

Also, I didn't realize Wizard staff would delete my posts.

[Sharpe]

What did they delete?

[NorthernRommel]

The poll has closed. It has been very telling. 29% say yes. 57% say no. 14% don't care.

Also, I didn't realize Wizard staff would delete my posts.

The deleting of posts has been going on for a while. Censorship under the guise of getting rid of spam.

The sad thing is that after talking to some local game store owners and other players it is clear they planned this some time back -- and most of their current replies are little more then spin doctoring. I only played the old rules because my friends liked it. Now apart from collecting the mins we had no reasons to bother with these forums. I still dont get why people complain about the platoon cards when I provided them with options months back -- but I guess thats people.

As with the other posters I find it hard not to be cynical with WOTC.

[Moderator Kayn]

:rolleyes:
I deleted an off topic post.

FYI: if you ever feel something's been wrongly moderated you need to let the Lead for this Area know.

Cheers!
Mod Kayn

[Sharpe]

I guess I should have indicated, but I was asking Allxmen.

[Colonel_Coo]

:rolleyes:
I deleted an off topic post.

FYI: if you ever feel something's been wrongly moderated you need to let the Lead for this Area know.

Cheers!
Mod Kayn

Who is the "Lead for this Area"?

By the way, did you delete Gamer Zer0's scarcastic response to a forum post where (and I quote) he says "As my nephew would say "Well Duh!"? Or do you not delete scarastic responses from the staff like you do from forum posts?

And by the way, my questions contained in that thread were honest. So far, the responses from the business side of this little group has been far from it.

[Moderator Kayn]

Who is the "Lead for this Area"?




http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?t=13552

[Colonel_Coo]

http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?t=13552

Thank you,

[TomServo]

Who is the "Lead for this Area"?

By the way, did you delete Gamer Zer0's scarcastic response to a forum post where (and I quote) he says "As my nephew would say "Well Duh!"? Or do you not delete scarastic responses from the staff like you do from forum posts?

Yeah, he wrote that in response to one of my posts. I had an equally infantile reply planned, but figured it just wasn't worth it.

And by the way, my questions contained in that thread were honest. So far, the responses from the business side of this little group has been far from it.


Amen to that.... To quote Monty Python.."Is there someone else we can talk to?"